Help! I think my snake is ill!

[rtcphoto]

I recently purchased 2 new garters.
One is inquisitive and healthy and the other has me concerned.
Perhaps you can provide assistance and let me know what to do.

Emily appears to be getting weaker by the day. She has been the more demure of the two since I received her 3 weeks ago. She eats some, but not nearly as often as the other. I do feed them individually.

Today I noticed that at times she has her mouth open every now and then. It looks similar to a dog panting, but she's not panting,

It also appears she has lost weight and doesn't show much interest in her surroundings.

Your help is greatly appreciated..........Bob

[Cazador]

Bob,
The open mouth is a warning sign, but we need a bit more info.
How is her stool... semi-solid or runny and off-colored?
Is her underside starting to cave in (become convex)?
Are the ribs showing on each side of her underside?
What do you feed them?
Good pictures are always helpful.

Rick

[rtcphoto]

Rick,

Her belly is becoming a little concave.
In the three weeks I've had her she has eaten one small pinkie and a few small fish. Her stool seems normal, but she is a small snake so there isn't much to see. Thank you

[Cazador]

How long are they, or how much do they weigh? Also, do you know if they were captive born or wild caught? One more... does she investigate food or just ignore it?

[Boots]

A picture might be helpful. If you can take one.

Jason

[Thamnophis]

An open mouth is in this case a bad sign.
Dying snakes do this often without a clear reason.

[Cazador]

Bob,
Since your snake is losing weight, and its mouth is agape (as if panting), we're not talking about a seasonal eating hiatus. There are two routes that I'm considering. One is that she may have a B1 deficiency. This would make her lethargic, have a poor appetite, and lose weight, at first. Do you feed her goldfish or another fish that contains thiaminase? Check out this post for more info on species with thiaminase (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/welcome-lounge/347-thiaminase-hello-you-all.html?highlight=thiaminase#post3705).

The other possibility is that your snakes could have parasites. I'm assuming that you've checked for mites. If not, rub a damp white paper towel over your snake... particularily around the eyes and vent. Then look for tiny, dark mites crawling around on the paper towel. They often hide between the scales, so rub the snakes down a few times before saying they're clear.

Internal parasites are a little more difficult to diagnose at home. Since you haven't gotten a good look at the feces, can you smell whether they've defecated when you walk in the room? This would be a dead give-away that they're infested. If the problem snake is wild-caught, parasites are even more likely, and your snakes should be treated anyway.

Regardless of the exact problem, which we're trying to identify, treatment for most problems begins with their enclosure. The first thing to do, even if you SUSPECT a problem, is to go back to square one. Remove everything from the enclosure, and clean everything thoroughly, including the enclosure itself. Use soap and hot water. Then squirt everything down with a 5-10% bleach solution. A spray bottle works great. Leave the bleach on everything for about 10 minutes, then thoroughly rinse everything off. Put your old cage furnishings outside in a bag in the freezing cold, if you live in a cold place.

You want your "quarantine" enclosures to be VERY simple. One snake per enclosure, and use white paper towels as the substrate. The paper towels can be over newspaper if you prefer. Give each a small water bowl and a hiding place or two. The goal is to be able to see EVERYTHING that's going on and to remove places where parasites could hide. You also want to change the substrate often... every time it gets soiled. Re-clean and disinfect the enclosure approximately weekly until this snake is looking/acting better (unless we find a specific problem that needs more frequent cleaning).

I noticed from your previous posts that you have a 32" wandering garter that has been eating well, so I assume we're talking about different snakes. Is the sick one also a wandering garter? If so, they can stand a bit warmer temperatures than many. Raise the temperature up near 90 degrees F to give her immune system a boost, but let the temp fall to the upper 80s at night.

Finally, what I meant by the previous eating question is whether or not she shows interest in food. Does she flick her tongue rapidly and come over to investigate? Does she "mouth" food but not swallow it? Does she just ignore it?

One more thing to rule out... does she have any hard spots (or a single large "mass") near her stomach (almost 1/2 way between her head and tail)? Trust me, the questions won't go on forever, but we've got to narrow things down a bit. Be sure to wash and disinfect your hands after handling her ;).

Rick

[Snaky]

I would take her to see a vet if you're concerned. It's still a forum, there is to little info and a description can be misleading and misinterpreted. If your snake has something, the vet can directly give you a treatment.

[Cazador]

Fons and Hans both make excellent points. A snake that's gaping its mouth like this is probably in pretty bad shape already. They don't often reveal their illnesses so dramatically until a problem is fairly advanced. As far as I know, there are no vets here.

I'm a PhD candidate in biological sciences with a fair amount of experience and book knowledge, but I'm not a vet. I'm always torn between offering medical advise and just saying go see a vet because offering advise is really sticking one's neck out there. I realize that vets are expensive, and a lot of people won't pay the vet fees. Then they're left on their own, so I try to help when asked.

If you're looking for a litmus test to determine whether your snake's condition warrants a trip to the vet, the answer is yes... it does. The gaping mouth, poor appetite, and weight loss can only be easily treated if they're due to a diet containing too much thiaminase (or improper husbandry, but I don't think that's the problem here). Otherwise, you're going to be dealing with medications.

If you'd like to take the hands-on approach, I'm sure there are a number of us willing to share our experiences and try to offer help. I just wanted to acknowledge my limitations and those of online help. Either way, I hope you will keep us informed about your snakes' conditions.

[CrazyHedgehog]

One more thing to rule out... does she have any hard spots (or a single large "mass") near her stomach (almost 1/2 way between her head and tail)?
Rick

Sorry to jump in, but I had a snake die with something similar, very hard mass in stomach that i hadn't noticed before (newish snake from a less than reputable breeder! grrrr - but I should have known better..)
What is this? Also she died the day after i noticed it, so didn't have a chance to take her to the vets, but When I took her out of the tank, dead, she had a mouth full of wood!! (looked like she was eating the substrate) was this because she was ill? a bit mad? or just in the last minute struggle?

[Cazador]

Crazyhedgehog, I actually hope more people will jump in and offer their opinions. The hard lump is a clue that a snake MAY have cryptosporidium, which is generally considered untreatable. I suspect that the bark in the mouth was part of a last-minute seizure, but you'd want to cut them open (wearing latex gloves) to be certain. Cryptosporidium is a horrible bacteria that people can contract.
Rick

[CrazyHedgehog]

Thanks for the info, I did toy with the idea of cutting open, but was pretty upset and disposed of quickly...
I scrubbed the cage with a weak bleach solution, and all the furnishings, and its now housing an oregan red spotted...(which seems fine!)
All the other snakes are fine, so hopefully its something it had when it came and it has not spread..

How do they get it? how long does it last? (give me an idea if it had it when it came or if it contracted it while in my care...)

[Cazador]

Hi Crazyhedgehog,
Lumps can be from a lot of things, and don't necessarily mean cryptosporidium. Crypto is highly contagious, so if it was crypto, all your snakes would probably have it. You could pretty much rule out crypto by feeling your T.s. concinnus (and others) for a lump near (or in front of) the stomach. Crypto is fast acting and highly lethal to snakes, so I doubt it was crypto, in your case.

Lumps could also mean something undigested in its stomach, pregnancy, tumor, fecoliths, cloacoliths, retained embryos, scar tissue, etc., etc., etc. Their significance depends a lot on where they are and other symptoms that the snake experiences. Boeh (Cyrill) had a bout with crypto and is a very good source for more info.

Apparently mice colonies are sometimes infected by crypto, and it hasn't been proven to be able to (or not to be able to) be spread from mice to snakes. Though I don't know of any reason why it couldn't be spread from mice to reptiles.