Breeding related snakes?

[Lexa]

My friend and I are considering breeding our two snakes at some point in the future.

Thing is, we have no real idea about their genetic history. They came as a juvenile pair to us from a friend who had taken them in from someone who didn't want them, and now needed more space himself. He never found out if they're related.

The male is red-sided, and the female is florida blue.

Two questions:

1. With those two very different colourings, could they be related or is it an impossibility?

2. If there is a chance that they could be from the same parents, would it be alright to breed them? I don't know what the policy is on breeding closely related snakes. Would we create strange monsters, or would it be fine?

Thanks,

Lexa

[infernalis]

They are two different species, so very unlikely to be related.

on that same note, many purists would frown on hybridization of two species intentionally.

So very sorry if that is not what you wanted to hear.:(

[Lexa]

So they're actually different species?

How interesting. I didn't know that.

I'd always assumed it was just pigmentation - like breeding two corn snakes of different colours, rather than, say, breeding a rat snake with a royal python.

[infernalis]

Well I was off a bit, they are different sub species.

More like breeding a corn with a ratsnake or milk snake.

Pueblacorns are hybrids.

the blue snake is most likely a Thamnophis sirtalis similis

and the red sided is most likely a Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis

[Lexa]

So breeding them together wouldn't be advised, then? We'd create some kind of hybrid, rather than a legitimate garter?

We wouldn't mind if we shouldn't be breeding them - although we did hope to create the world's first purple snake, hehe...

[infernalis]

let your conscience guide you:D

But as I said the "purists" would frown.

however you would get something not likely purple as a result.

[EdgyExoticReptiles]

i thought florida blues were thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis and that they were more common that blue stripes which are thamnophis sirtalis similis

Well I was off a bit, they are different sub species.

More like breeding a corn with a ratsnake or milk snake.

Pueblacorns are hybrids.

the blue snake is most likely a Thamnophis sirtalis similis

and the red sided is most likely a Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis

[Zephyr]

It could be either Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis "Florida blue" or Thamnophis sirtalis similis.

[infernalis]

Either way, not a red sided.

[CrazyHedgehog]

I have both Florida blues and red sided...(amongst others!) I asked out of interest a while ago the same question, and basically, if you breed them, firstly they are not as likely to produce offspring being different sub species, and then secondly, if you are lucky and get young, you are likely to get some not so bright babies that you end up being stuck with cos no one wants a mongrel!! :(

the 'purist' argument as mentioned is basically if you do sell the offspring...what do you sell them as? and who stops the new owners from breeding from it and selling as pure breeds etc....(hence the purist thing...they want pure breeds!)

anyway hope that helps...

[Zephyr]

firstly they are not as likely to produce offspring being different sub species
Sub species would most definitely produce offspring, more or less capable of reproducing; I successfully ((accidentally mind you too!)) crossed Thamnophis marcianus marcianus with Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis and all of the babies were born healthy with no deformities aside from one. As far as if they're fertile, this would be risky to test.

[CrazyHedgehog]

ooops, ok I stand corrected, I have tried not to mix so haven't had experience, but I was led to believe that when I first asked the question...
sorry, :confused:

[Garter_Gertie]

Lexa, don't do it. Please? Please stay within your sub species. Get really good looking mates to go with what you and your friend have.

PLEASE DO NOT HYBRIDIZE (did I spell that rite??)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Stefan-A]

Lexa, don't do it. Please? Please stay within your sub species. Get really good looking mates to go with what you and your friend have.

PLEASE DO NOT HYBRIDIZE (did I spell that rite??)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I agree.

As badly as you might want to try breeding snakes, please wait until you have a matching pair.

[jitami]

I agree.

As badly as you might want to try breeding snakes, please wait until you have a matching par.

And if you have a matching pair of hybrids?

KIDDING!!! I prolly just gave Kyle a heart attack but couldn't resist being sassy with stefan :D

And again let me say that I am KIDDING!!! They were visually sexed & hopefully I have two males and if not they'll be seperated next year and not bred.

[Garter_Gertie]

I agree.

As badly as you might want to try breeding snakes, please wait until you have a matching pair.


(CRASH!) (Body hits floor falling outta chair)

What? What? I'm fussy headed... Where am I?

I dreamed Stefan agreed with me...

What day is it? Where am I?

[infernalis]

If one wants to try this and not cross boundaries, I suggest a Florida blue Sirtalis crossed with a flame Sirtalis.

However, your resulting litter would be blue babies and red babies, not too sure of the purple babies, or it would already have been done.

That would be like crossing an albino with a Melanistic in hopes of Grey offspring. or checkered flag babies....

Never seen any of those either.

However not entirely out of the question, there is one example of an albino flame that I know of, but all that is a snake with the Melanin bred out, not really a pink snake.

[Garter_Gertie]

Dekay! I can't even BELIVE you suggested that!!!

Please state your reasons.

[Zephyr]

Dekay! I can't even BELIVE you suggested that!!!

Please state your reasons.I don't see anything wrong with what he stated; The Florida blue garter he's talking about is Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis. The only flame garters I know of are also Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis.
Also, with the Albino and melenistics (both sirtalis sirtalis in sake of this discussion) you'd get (I believe) melenistic babies that are heterozygous for amelenism. Or something like that.

[Zephyr]

That would be like crossing an albino with a Melanistic in hopes of Grey offspring. or checkered flag babies....

lol
Perhaps that's where checkered garters came from? :O
IT'S A CONSPIRACY.

[EdgyExoticReptiles]

yes they would be just as fertile as a non mix I even heard of two frog sub species that benefited from hybridizing

Sub species would most definitely produce offspring, more or less capable of reproducing; I successfully ((accidentally mind you too!)) crossed Thamnophis marcianus marcianus with Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis and all of the babies were born healthy with no deformities aside from one. As far as if they're fertile, this would be risky to test.

[GartersRock]

I agree. I would NEVER cross different sub species... And I don't think you would get purple. But as Wayne says. You could cross a flame sirtalis sirtalis wih a florida blue sirtalis sirtalis if you really wanted to! Same sub species. Just different colors.

[Lexa]

Lexa, don't do it. Please? Please stay within your sub species. Get really good looking mates to go with what you and your friend have.

PLEASE DO NOT HYBRIDIZE (did I spell that rite??)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*Runs and hides*

Don't worry, we won't breed them - I was just asking about it, that's all. I'd thought they were the same species but different colours, and it would be OK, but I stand corrected :). Now that I know they're actually different subspecies, I won't consider breeding them. I was just curious!

Is it safe to come out now?

[Garter_Gertie]

Yes, it's safe! I'd not have gotten you. Just have been very sad should you do it.

Come out! Come out! What you need to do is plan on mates for your snakies. WooT! That should be fun!

Come on back out and play!

[Stefan-A]

(CRASH!) (Body hits floor falling outta chair)

What? What? I'm fussy headed... Where am I?

I dreamed Stefan agreed with me...

What day is it? Where am I?
Why do people keep saying things like that?


Wow! I agree with Stefan, how bout that?:eek:


I agreed with Stefan once..... but then he changed his mind!:D

[crzy_kevo]

maybe it the fact that you dont usually agree with anyone

[Zephyr]

*Runs and hides*

Don't worry, we won't breed them - I was just asking about it, that's all. I'd thought they were the same species but different colours, and it would be OK, but I stand corrected :). Now that I know they're actually different subspecies, I won't consider breeding them. I was just curious!

Is it safe to come out now?Well technically if you think about it... I don't think there's been any bloodwork on Thamnophis genetics extensively, so in the next 20 years we could find out that T. sirtalis paritalis and T. s. sirtalis are both the same thing. :P

[Stefan-A]

maybe it the fact that you dont usually agree with anyone
Not true, I usually just don't open my mouth when I do agree with someone. When the relevant things have already been said, what can I possibly contribute with, except moral support to those that I agree with? Although sometimes that's necessary, too.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

scott bred a regular eastern of some morph to a florida blue eastern this year... don't remember what the male was though...

There's nothing wrong with what wayne suggested gertie, they are the same exact snakes, they just look different. It's like how you can have eastern garters from new york, and eastern garters from virginia. They may look different, but they are the same snake.:)

[anaconda]

making a hybrid would be like make a new species if you mad another pair of the same kind of snakes and had 2 snakes with the same genetics so technicly oyu would be making a new species why would purists frown on it?

[Stefan-A]

making a hybrid would be like make a new species
No, it really, really wouldn't. The only thing you'd get, is hybrids and more hybrids.

[anaconda]

No, it really, really wouldn't. The only thing you'd get, is hybrids and more hybrids.
but technicly if you keep breeding the same things once u reach like a thousand wouldnt it be creating a new species:p

[Stefan-A]

You could keep it up for a thousand generations and still not have a new species.

[Garter_Gertie]

You could keep it up for a thousand generations and still not have a new species.

My hero.

Glad you understand these things better than I. And can talk about it.

I've got the gist, but don't understand the fine points like you do.

Hang in there, keep 'preaching the word.'

[Garter_Gertie]

OH!!!

DOGS!!!

You can breed - dear gods, PLEASE DON'T!!!!!!!!!!!!! - beagles and Pugglettes.

But you don't HAVE a new species. They're still canines. And I don't even think they've a sub species, other than any other breed.

"A rose by any other name, smells as sweet." W. Shakespeare

[Garter_Gertie]

OH!!!

DOGS!!!

You can breed - dear gods, PLEASE DON'T!!!!!!!!!!!!! - beagles and Pugglettes.

But you don't HAVE a new species. They're still canines. And I don't even think they've a sub species, other than any other breed.

"A rose by any other name, smells as sweet." W. Shakespeare

Man! I just LOVE it when I can understand a concept! :D

[Stefan-A]

OH!!!

DOGS!!!

You can breed - dear gods, PLEASE DON'T!!!!!!!!!!!!! - beagles and Pugglettes.

But you don't HAVE a new species. They're still canines. And I don't even think they've a sub species, other than any other breed.

"A rose by any other name, smells as sweet." W. Shakespeare
Dogs are classed as a subspecies of Canis lupus, Canis lupus familiaris. That's after 15 000 years of reproductive isolation from the natural form and selective breeding. And it's still debatable whether or not it deserves that status.

[Garter_Gertie]

Dogs are classed as a subspecies of Canis lupus, Canis lupus familiaris. That's after 15 000 years of reproductive isolation from the natural form and selective breeding. And it's still debatable whether or not it deserves that status.


I repeat: "My hero."

You've got it much finer than I do. Thanks.

[Stefan-A]

I don't get it.

[Garter_Gertie]

You've "got it" [down, understood, learned, grasped, described and written] much finer than I do.

[mtolypetsupply]

Deb (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001499/): What are you drawing?
Napoleon Dynamite (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1417647/): A liger.
Deb (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001499/): What's a liger?
Napoleon Dynamite (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1417647/): It's pretty much my favorite animal. It's like a lion and a tiger mixed... bred for its skills in magic.

But what about the liger? Isn't that a separate species now, what with the magical skills and all?

:)
Stephi

[infernalis]

I believe she is complimenting your education.

[Stefan-A]

But what about the liger? Isn't that a separate species now,
Nope. :p

[bsol]

Its just a tiger with some lion characteristics or a lion with some tiger characteristics. I guess it depends on the dominant gene... The man from Southern Finland is really up on this stuff!

[Stefan-A]

Yup, but that's still easy stuff.

Reading about Starfish Prime at the moment. ;)

[bsol]

keep on doing your thing pal! the more information you have stored in your brain the more we can all benefit!

[Stefan-A]

Not the ideal place to store information, I'm afraid.

[bsol]

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/mey.jpg

I bet you have tons of latin names, species and sub species of all kinds of animals in that brain man!

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Deb (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001499/): What are you drawing?
Napoleon Dynamite (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1417647/): A liger.
Deb (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001499/): What's a liger?
Napoleon Dynamite (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1417647/): It's pretty much my favorite animal. It's like a lion and a tiger mixed... bred for its skills in magic.

But what about the liger? Isn't that a separate species now, what with the magical skills and all?

:)
Stephi

It wouldn't be a good idea to call a liger its own species. Short recap is needed here. A tigon is a cross b/n a male tiger and a female lion; the crossing works, but cubs are always rejected by the lioness; she will not recognize them as her own. No evolutionary success story there -it's not meant to be (Actually, none of this would occur naturally b/n the 2 cats). A liger is the opposite cross: male lion, female tiger. In this case the mother tiger will accept the young and attempt to raise it. Speciation regarding both versions is ultimately doomed, as males born in both crossings are sterile; there would be no continuance of the line. This is really a partial hybrid, where the female offspring can only breed with one or the other of the 2 original species (thus reaffirming traits of one species or the other). Also, it is important to know that ligers have a shorter lifespan due to health complications that may be compared to those which killed Andre the Giant (I'm not a "wrestling" fam, but I liked the "Princess Bride".). Apparently male lions offer up some kind of growth hormone to the next generation, that is kept in check by something the lioness puts into the "recipe". Ligers do not get this hormone inhibitor from their tiger mother, and therefore never stop growing. Ligers may be called the largest big cat in the world. Unfortunately, their heart can't compensate for the continual increase in body volume. Most new complex animal species do not arise from hybridization. Sub-specific intergrades don't count, because subspecies are still the SAME species. In cases like these far-flung sub-specific intergrades might actually strengthen genetic integrity rather than weaken it. This however doesn't fair well when you are dealing with captive-bred specimens whose traits you wish to keep defined.

Steven

[infernalis]

Very well said Steven...

[prattypus]

It wouldn't be a good idea to call a liger its own species. Short recap is needed here. A tigon is a cross b/n a male tiger and a female lion; the crossing works, but cubs are always rejected by the lioness; she will not recognize them as her own. No evolutionary success story there -it's not meant to be (Actually, none of this would occur naturally b/n the 2 cats). A liger is the opposite cross: male lion, female tiger. In this case the mother tiger will accept the young and attempt to raise it. Speciation regarding both versions is ultimately doomed, as males born in both crossings are sterile; there would be no continuance of the line. This is really a partial hybrid, where the female offspring can only breed with one or the other of the 2 original species (thus reaffirming traits of one species or the other). Also, it is important to know that ligers have a shorter lifespan due to health complications that may be compared to those which killed Andre the Giant (I'm not a "wrestling" fam, but I liked the "Princess Bride".). Apparently male lions offer up some kind of growth hormone to the next generation, that is kept in check by something the lioness puts into the "recipe". Ligers do not get this hormone inhibitor from their tiger mother, and therefore never stop growing. Ligers may be called the largest big cat in the world. Unfortunately, their heart can't compensate for the continual increase in body volume. Most new complex animal species do not arise from hybridization. Sub-specific intergrades don't count, because subspecies are still the SAME species. In cases like these far-flung sub-specific intergrades might actually strengthen genetic integrity rather than weaken it. This however doesn't fair well when you are dealing with captive-bred specimens whose traits you wish to keep defined.

Steven
Just try saying that three times fast...

[Garter_Gertie]

I said what I said - and asked for Dekay's reasoning - because I believe - ONLY MY OPINION, here - that just because something is possible does not make it ethical.

Not even if it could occur in nature. And for that matter, do those two have known intergrades, where their territories cross?

Here's some painful ethics of years past...

Weimaraners. When my grandfather was breeding them in the '30s, they culled to keep the breed pure with only silvers. Today there are silvers and blues - or something like that. Now culling is a hard, painful thing to do. However, at the time, people were adamant about keeping the breed pure with only one color. And don't hit me with inbreeding to do so. They line and outbreed as necessary.

I could, should I desire, get females of different Thamo subspecies to breed with my boys. I can do it. But would it be ethical?

In my mind, no.

I see the corns; I see the corns crossed with the milks. Like...

What would happen IF these idiots did let their snakes loose because they couldn't care for them? A lack of ethics in breeding something such as snakes - vs dogs or cats one usually doesn't just let loose in the wild - would suggest to me those bozos would have no compunction in letting muddied snakes loose in the wild.

This has never been addressed here before - that possibility. It could happen. Actually, I'm willing to bet it probably has. People shrugging their shoulders, "What's the problem?" and letting snakes go.

And each and every one of those muddied, cross-bred snakes takes up room, food, territory of native snakes. They interbreed with our native snakes - the poor snakes don't know what they're doing! - and our native popoulation changes.

And NOT by natural selection, but by some bone-headed ******* being a bone-headed *******.

I'm not pointing fingers here. I'm voicing my worries about Xtreme Hogs, or Xtreme Garters.

Not all people are as ethical as we may tend to be. And it worries me no end. This is a topic of conversation that breaks my heart and so concerns me regarding what native animals we have.

I'll get off my soapbox now. I realize I got kind'a got het up - I didn't mean to offend. If I did, I'm sorry that's the way you took it.

But just because something is possible does NOT make it right.

Thanks for bearing with me.


I don't see anything wrong with what he stated; The Florida blue garter he's talking about is Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis. The only flame garters I know of are also Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis.
Also, with the Albino and melenistics (both sirtalis sirtalis in sake of this discussion) you'd get (I believe) melenistic babies that are heterozygous for amelenism. Or something like that.

[Garter_Gertie]

Just because Scott could do that, was it ethical? I don't think so.

And NY Easterns are not the same snake as VA Easterns. They're the same species/subspecies but they have evolved entirely differently based upon their locality.

If they were truly the same - same foods, same cover, same forage, et al, they would look the same.

They can't even intergrade. :)



scott bred a regular eastern of some morph to a florida blue eastern this year... don't remember what the male was though...

There's nothing wrong with what wayne suggested gertie, they are the same exact snakes, they just look different. It's like how you can have eastern garters from new york, and eastern garters from virginia. They may look different, but they are the same snake.:)

[mtolypetsupply]

Deb (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001499/): What are you drawing?
Napoleon Dynamite (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1417647/): A liger.
Deb (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001499/): What's a liger?
Napoleon Dynamite (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1417647/): It's pretty much my favorite animal. It's like a lion and a tiger mixed... bred for its skills in magic.

But what about the liger? Isn't that a separate species now, what with the magical skills and all?

:)
Stephi


Okay, for everyone who took that seriously, I'm very sorry. I kinda figured my using "Napoleon Dynamite" as a reference, and my question about the magical skills would give it away as a joke.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Okay, for everyone who took that seriously, I'm very sorry. I kinda figured my using "Napoleon Dynamite" as a reference, and my question about the magical skills would give it away as a joke.

I enjoyed the humor, but I did perceive literally in regards "isn't a liger a new species?"

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Dogs are classed as a subspecies of Canis lupus, Canis lupus familiaris. That's after 15 000 years of reproductive isolation from the natural form and selective breeding. And it's still debatable whether or not it deserves that status.

There might be a lot of genetic quirks if you bred domesticated dogs with wolves, but I do believe the crosses are still viable in most cases. Size (LOL!) is always important! No, seriously, no female chihuahuas with male timber wolves! Sounds like "Let's do lunch! Oh, by the way baby, you Mexican hot water bottle, you....you're lunch!" (Yes it is believed they served that purpose for the Aztecs.)

No, the last I heard is that domesticated dogs, despite their looks, adaptations, dispositions, etc. have a "hard-wired" gene that screams:
"I am wolf. I want to look like a wolf! Or at least a Cape Hunting Dog or Dingo or something...." If humans disappeared, it is believed that dogs would eventually revert back to a wolf-like form. Both natural selection and ancient restrictive controller genes would whip this animal back into a near original state. Most little breeds would become lunch if this were to happen (unless the dachshunds all run for badger dens!).

One thing we're learning in evo-devo (evolutionary development) is that the survival of added mutations (changes) within the realm of natural selection are actually limited by dominator genes. These genes are vital to keep us who (what) we are; otherwise mutation could be rampant in what might normally be a fit population. If ya don't need a change because the environment you are in is ideal, change is not going to help the population.
These genes are actually often responsible for many species' extinctions during sudden environmental changes, simply because the controlled development won't allow mutations fast enough for the change in habitat.

I don't mean to be all wordy and stuff! Thanks for al the praise regarding these long posts. Feel comforted in knowing that for any of you who often feel overwhelmed with the info I write..... I am in a similar boat when reading and trying to understand the doctorate texts I peruse, which often contain terminology over my head. We're all learning together. These posts also actually help me study.

Steven

[Stefan-A]

No, seriously, no female chihuahuas with male timber wolves! Sounds like "Let's do lunch! Oh, by the way baby, you Mexican hot water bottle, you....you're lunch!" (Yes it is believed they served that purpose for the Aztecs.)
Actually, that seems to apply to practically every dog, not just the small ones. They don't behave like wolves, they don't look like wolves, they don't communicate like wolves and they don't smell like wolves, so dogs almost consistently end up as lunch.


No, the last I heard is that domesticated dogs, despite their looks, adaptations, dispositions, etc. have a "hard-wired" gene that screams:
"I am wolf. I want to look like a wolf! Or at least a Cape Hunting Dog or Dingo or something...." If humans disappeared, it is believed that dogs would eventually revert back to a wolf-like form. Both natural selection and ancient restrictive controller genes would whip this animal back into a near original state. Most little breeds would become lunch if this were to happen (unless the dachshunds all run for badger dens!).
Well, natural selection is going to weed out those that can't find a niche and the closest one is going to be that of wolves, possibly foxes in some cases, and these are already better adapted to that kind of life.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Yeah, natural selection does have the "final say" in the elimination process.

And yes, most breeds of dogs probably would pass as lunch! When I grew up in San Diego, my parents made me feed the coyotes (my parents: war-torn children from WWII Germany - didn't believe in wasting anything, esp. table scraps), despite my protests and neighbors' concerns. During this time I once witnessed a "Coy dog" (coyote/familiaris hybrid - Shepard influence I believe - largest "coyote" I have ever seen!) chasing our neighbor's ruthless bloodhounds. The bloodhounds would often chase the smaller coyotes as well as females that may have been in heat. One of them never made it back over the fence, so it is surmised the coyote pack may have had a group picnic here. My question is: How did the shepard get it on without being attacked? - perhaps a lonely female coyote?

[ssssnakeluvr]

Just because Scott could do that, was it ethical? I don't think so.

And NY Easterns are not the same snake as VA Easterns. They're the same species/subspecies but they have evolved entirely differently based upon their locality.

If they were truly the same - same foods, same cover, same forage, et al, they would look the same.

They can't even intergrade. :)
they are the same species....just different colors....as humans are the same species, different locations and different colors.....just because they are different colors due to location doesn't make them different species....

[infernalis]

Steven, Out here where I live Coy/Dog hybrids are a PROBLEM..

People drop unwanted dogs all over in the country, so even if only one or two of those "prove themselves" and are accepted into the pack, breeding is almost inevitable.

The D.E.C. stocked the coyotes a few years ago to control deer....

Now they want to stock WOLVES to control the coyotes....

Why not just stock the woods with armed men:cool:

[Stefan-A]

Now they want to stock WOLVES to control the coyotes....
It would probably work. :)

[infernalis]

Well I would rather listen to Wolves at night then coyotes.

My god they sound like someone torturing babies when they get welping out back..

The Coyotes have killed two of my cats. So I vote the gun method.

[jitami]

I miss hearing coyotes at night :( Keep your cats inside? I'm half teasing Wayne. I know they can be a real problem and threaten livestock and children. Not too far from here there are, or at least have been in the past, county ok'd coyote/wild dog hunts once or twice a year to keep the population in check. I actually like the idea of wolf reintroduction anywhere where it would work well for the wolves. Figure we need to figure out a way to work around them since this was their land first:confused:

[anji1971]

I miss being up north where you can hear wolves howl. I think it's time to reintroduce Anjis back into Northern Canada..............:D

[jitami]

I've never lived where I could hear wolves howl and would love to... how cold is Northern Canada Anji? lol... I really don't want to know...brrrrr... but would love to at least experience it. The only wolves I've ever heard were captive :(

[anji1971]

I wasn't so far up north that it never thaws out or anything, but winters got to -20 to -30 easily. But the cold up there is lacking the humidity we have here in Southwestern Ontario, so even with more extreme temps, it doesn't bother me as much.
Here, our winters are relatively mild. We never get enough of a freezing spell to even make a decent ice rink or enough snow to go tobogganing more than a couple times each winter. But it's gray and damp, and for some reason, I always find myself chilled through by being out for any length of time. I really don't like living here.

[Garter_Gertie]

We get more snow, but again don't have the humidity.

I love living here. I'll not live farther south than the Twin Cities even though I was raised in IL.

We've wolves in MN. Up near the Boundary Waters and even in the park we have occasional wolves that wander through. They come over from WI where there's a resident population in the sand dune/area/whatever.

Oh! And there's resident pops farther north in MN, close to the Canadian border.

They've been reintroduced into Yellowstone... GOOD JOB!