Garters eating INSECTS!!!

[Zephyr]

On the way home from a farm market we swung by one of those Ma and Pa pet stores way out in the boondocks. lol
They were selling wax worms, nice fat ones, for $.60 a dozen. Obviously I had to buy.
So I came home and realized since I have to skip feeding day tomorrow I'd do it today. So I grabbed one of the worms and said "Oh, what the hell." And offered it on tweezers to Bubblegum my albino checkered female.
SHE TOOK IT.
The butler's looked interested.
TOOK IT.
So did one of Don's wanderings, a picky eater.
TOOK IT.
I was totally amazed; don't worry, I HAVE PICS! :D
I've also got a video; I'll load that to Youtube in a bit.
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/5026/img1082ml5.jpg
http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/4023/img1083lc9.jpg
The first one's severely out of focus because I'd just grabbed my camera.

[Zephyr]

http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/8484/img1081zk4.jpg
One of the butler's. Yeah, I know you can't tell what she's eating but it IS a wax worm!

[Zephyr]

YouTube - Garter snake eats a wax worm! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jghXiGuywdE)
Videographic proof.

[Stefan-A]

Videographic proof that garters may try to eat anything.

[Zephyr]

Videographic proof that garters may try to eat anything.Ah, but they came back for multiple servings. ;)
So.
Perhaps insect larvae comprise a small amount of their wild diets.

[Stefan-A]

Have you considered adding a disclaimer to that video?

[Zephyr]

Have you considered adding a disclaimer to that video?Such as... Insects should not be fed solely when other foods are more readily accepted?

[Stefan-A]

Such as: Insects shouldn't be fed at all. Just because garters may under certain circumstances eat them doesn't mean that insects are a part of their diet. Just because garters will eat something, doesn't mean they should.

Something along those lines. Anything to avoid doing them a gigantic disservice by announcing that garters eat insects.

[Zephyr]

Just the fact that the garters eat them means they recognize them as food. If you noticed, when garter in the video ate the wax worm, she didn't just strike at it, which would have been from a visual cue. She flicked her tongue at it a few times, opened her mouth and ate.
Just because it may seem highly illogical, or previously unrecorded doesn't mean it's not true.
There's the evidence; if you need more you'll have to wait until the next feeding day.
And also, notice I said WAX WORMS on the video and in the thread; we have clear evidence of them eating waxworms but as far as other insects go we have no evidence.

[Stefan-A]

Just the fact that the garters eat them means they recognize them as food.
Whether or not they recognize them correctly or incorrectly, is the issue. This is something that has popped up from time to time, with garters identifying anything from substrate to silicone in the enclosure as food and ending up trying to eat them. If it wasn't dangerous, I'd feed one of my snakes Legos just to prove that point.

I've fed mine beef occasionally. Does that mean that they recognize cows as food? Of course not.


If you noticed, when garter in the video ate the wax worm, she didn't just strike at it, which would have been from a visual cue. She flicked her tongue at it a few times, opened her mouth and ate.I noticed that you offered the worm from the forceps. Is that how you normally feed them? I also noticed that the snake was reluctant to grab it and that it only did it as you pushed the worm against the side of the mouth. In case you didn't know, that's a trick you'd use on a reluctant feeder. It's a way to provoke them into grabbing a food item.



And also, notice I said WAX WORMS on the video and in the thread; we have clear evidence of them eating waxworms but as far as other insects go we have no evidence.Trust me, I noticed. I also noticed you yelling at 0:17 that "garter snakes eat insects".

[Zephyr]

Whether or not they recognize them correctly or incorrectly, is the issue. This is something that has popped up from time to time, with garters identifying anything from substrate to silicone in the enclosure as food and ending up trying to eat them. If it wasn't dangerous, I'd feed one of my snakes Legos just to prove that point.

I've fed mine beef occasionally. Does that mean that they recognize cows as food? Of course not.
Isee it highly unlikely that a garter would just randomly ingest silicone or substrate. There had to be the scent of a prey item on it or else they wouldn't even try to eat it. As for the beef thing, do you post or pre-scent the beef, or do they just take it?


I noticed that you offered the worm from the forceps. Is that how you normally feed them? I also noticed that the snake was reluctant to grab it and that it only did it as you pushed the worm against the side of the mouth. In case you didn't know, that's a trick you'd use on a reluctant feeder. It's a way to provoke them into grabbing a food item.If the snake didn't want the wax worm it wouldn't have come back for the other 5 or 6 it ate.
Also, this wouldn't explain why the picky female that Don sent me, who won't take fish, fish pieces, worms, or tadpoles edged close to her mouth, decided to eat.



Trust me, I noticed. I also noticed you yelling that "garter snakes eat insects".I'll admit, I was a little excited. But I stated in the end, "Or wax worms at least."

[Stefan-A]

Isee it highly unlikely that a garter would just randomly ingest silicone or substrate. There had to be the scent of a prey item on it or else they wouldn't even try to eat it.
Maybe there was, maybe there wasn't.


As for the beef thing, do you post or pre-scent the beef, or do they just take it? They just take it. Off a plate. No scenting, no jiggling the food in front of them, nothing at all to provoke them. What I do see, is hesitation before they grab it and they grab it just as carefully as the garter in the video.


If the snake didn't want the wax worm it wouldn't have come back for the other 5 or 6 it ate. Sure it would. Once you trigger the feeding response, they may very well keep coming back for more.


Also, this wouldn't explain why the picky female that Don sent me, who won't take fish, fish pieces, worms, or tadpoles edged close to her mouth, decided to eat.Neither does her eating a wax worm.

[Zephyr]

As to this point, I don't see any of your arguments being anything but simple contradiction.
I'm not saying, "hay every1 go out n feed ur garters bugz!!11"
But obviously if it triggers the feeding response and they like the food, why not give them it?
Just think of all the variety we can offer our garters: worms, fish, amphibians, leeches, beef heart, pinkies, and now wax worms. Wax worms are very high in fat but are considerably more digestible than pinkies, which may cause liver problems. So I see no reason why not to use it as a treat.
Also, I'd like to note that none of the males seem interested; And the females, excluding Don's, have all given birth and are currently be fed back up to a healthy weight. Insect larvae ARE very high in protein...

[Stefan-A]

As to this point, I don't see any of your arguments being anything but simple contradiction.
Well no offence, but your conclusions are pure conjecture. Personally, I think my pointing out, using examples, that garters don't always know the difference, is a bit more than just contradiction of your statement that they do.


I'm not saying, "hay every1 go out n feed ur garters bugz!!11"That's pretty much how it comes across in the video and in this discussion, though.


But obviously if it triggers the feeding response and they like the food, why not give them it?Because they don't necessarily know any better.

I had to wait for YouTube to process the following video and it took longer than I anticipated, but here you'll see the feeding response triggered by the forceps alone, straight out of the dish washer. There is no residual smell from earlier feedings and nothing edible had even been in the room for a couple of days. You don't necessarily need something edible to trigger a garter's feeding response.

YouTube - Proving a point (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR4sg5O2F5M)

I filmed it half a year ago.


Just think of all the variety we can offer our garters: worms, fish, amphibians, leeches, beef heart, pinkies, and now wax worms. Wax worms are very high in fat but are considerably more digestible than pinkies, which may cause liver problems.Well, if they are very high in fat, then they are inevitably going to cause liver problems.


Also, I'd like to note that none of the males seem interested; Proof that it's not food? :rolleyes:

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Sorry Kyle, but I am leaning with Stefan here... don't take any of this personally please!




But obviously if it triggers the feeding response and they like the food, why not give them it?


Case in point, I once told a friend that most of my garters, especially the females, will eat ANYTHING I offer if I offer it as food. He didn't believe me. I said wanna bet? We were eating pizza. Took some pizza crust... put it in Shoobie's face... and BOOM, Shoobie was trying to down a piece of bread. of course, I did not let her have it... but it just goes to show that just because it triggers their feeding response and they want to eat it, does not mean that they should be eating it. If you really think they want to eat it, put some waxworms on a dish, unscented, and see if they eat them that way...



Wax worms are very high in fat but are considerably more digestible than pinkies, which may cause liver problems. So I see no reason why not to use it as a treat.


The liver problems you are speaking of is a fatty liver... which can occur from too many pinkies... basically if you feed your garter only pinkies there's a chance this can happen. waxworms are probably the most fatty thing you can feed an animal, besides, well, pure fat! I do not think that feeding out garters something that has 1) an indigestible head and 2)an extreme fat content makes up for being slightly easier to digest, of course a bag of blubber is easier to digest than a newborn vertebrate :) We know they are easier to digest for animals such as lizards that commonly eat both pinkies and wax worms, but how do we know that our snakes will react the same? Green snakes specialize in eating insects and even they don't fully digest their meals.


Also, I'd like to note that none of the males seem interested.
None of male garter snakes are near as interested in food as the females. None of the males I have seen eat, have ever been as willing to eat something foreign as a female is... we all know how females are! The males hit it hard when I offer them the right thing, but they will stop eating after only a very small amount and are not as eager to get their second pinky or fish chunk, or earthworm.


And the females, excluding Don's, have all given birth and are currently be fed back up to a healthy weight. Insect larvae ARE very high in protein.

Just remember not to rush building your snakes back up to weight. Giving them more fattier foods will cause them to gain weight faster, which is not necessarily better. It sounds like fast food, for garters.


Now, I am not saying it is impossible that some wild garters occasionally will eat an insect larvae. But, I myself have left waxworms on a dish to see if they would eat them, and after all my females refused to touch them ( and trust me I have the most eatingest snakes in the world) even though they were the only food offered for a week, I concluded that they are not something that my snakes recognize as food and I don't really want the extra worry of that little indigestible head causing something to go wrong...

I myself have watched two separate garter snakes put into their freshly changed cages begin to inspect, and then attempt to eat a piece of aspen that was darker than the rest. These were two different snakes and two different times.

[zooplan]

Erschreckend!

Sorry that I had to slep and could enter the discussion only now.;)
Do you know the fairytail about garters eating crickets?
It´s photoproof!
I´m sure insect larvae and at least adult insects would be occasional food for garters just like shed skins.
To add a disclaimer to the video is a good (excellent) advice.

On the other hand it´s easy to feed supplements to insect larvae to enhance their food quality.

[person365]

I think waxworms are good for snakes but only every once in a while same as goldfish you should definitely not feed your garter these all the time it is good feed your garter on a diet with all different types of food.

[person365]

Whether or not they recognize them correctly or incorrectly, is the issue. This is something that has popped up from time to time, with garters identifying anything from substrate to silicone in the enclosure as food and ending up trying to eat them. If it wasn't dangerous, I'd feed one of my snakes Legos just to prove that point.

I've fed mine beef occasionally. Does that mean that they recognize cows as food? Of course not.

I noticed that you offered the worm from the forceps. Is that how you normally feed them? I also noticed that the snake was reluctant to grab it and that it only did it as you pushed the worm against the side of the mouth. In case you didn't know, that's a trick you'd use on a reluctant feeder. It's a way to provoke them into grabbing a food item.


Trust me, I noticed. I also noticed you yelling at 0:17 that "garter snakes eat insects".


here him say at least waxworms. plus stephan's youtube vid was not with an albino checkered it was with a wandering maybe other species will have different feeding habbits. + reactions

[ssssnakeluvr]

personally I wouldn't give them insects period....(sorry, missed most fo the last few days home sick...still trying to kick it!).... I force fed some insects to garters when I was young and didn't know any better...they passed out the back end looking just like they did when they went in....I gave them flies and they came out looking like flies..not snake poop if they had been able to digest them.....

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

yeppers.... bugs come out looking just like bugs! bet the waxworm's heads pass undigested.

[infernalis]

I wanna try the leggos thing:rolleyes:

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

hahahaha, it's lego's for the garters this week.... I can see it now...

"Shannon"

"yes mom"

"why are the garters all neatly stacked on top of one another in the shape of a small house?"

[crzy_kevo]

lol that would be funny

[frechgrins1978]

my gartersnake man don´t like wax worm, but sometimes he need it!

I feed it with the tweezers and give him earthworm. I schmuggle him just under the wax worm

[Lulu Bennett]

Right guys, i have heard this arguement before. I agree 110% with stefan.


I think waxworms are good for snakes but only every once in a while same as goldfish you should definitely not feed your garter these all the time it is good feed your garter on a diet with all different types of food.

Goldfish in NO CERCUMSTANCE should be given to Garter snakes!! they contain Thiamin and this given to a garter with develope into a Vit B1 deficiancy(Sp?) so unless you are willing sign your garters death wish then i sugest you don't do it.


here him say at least waxworms. plus stephan's youtube vid was not with an albino checkered it was with a wandering maybe other species will have different feeding habbits. + reactions

I have 1.1 Albino Checkereds so i thought i would try this! It doesn't matter what species/sub-species it is. Mine had the same responce.

[infernalis]

Where I am confused is why anyone would want to deviate from established dietary requirements.

I have 2 garters that lived a full year on worms alone, and only had fish added after that first year. They are both very healthy robust animals.

So WHY??? isn't it difficult enough to stock the right foods without adding unnecessary items to the list??

[Lulu Bennett]

I have been feeding my garters on pinkies and fuzzies they contain most things that a garter needs. Mine are as healthy as pie.

with worms i would have thought that calcium powder or something like that as a supliment.

[infernalis]

Oh crap I did forget mice... Ouch it must still be early yet.

That first year Lou, I didn't know any better.

I was only trying to copy what I saw them eat in nature.

However now that I think about it, I did give them salamanders from time to time, and they have bones, so calcium was present in the diet.

[snakeman]

speaking of snakes eating insects.I saw a thread on another forum where copperheads were climbing into bushes and eating cicadas.apparently they love them and it is quite common.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Where I am confused is why anyone would want to deviate from established dietary requirements.

I have 2 garters that lived a full year on worms alone, and only had fish added after that first year. They are both very healthy robust animals.

So WHY??? isn't it difficult enough to stock the right foods without adding unnecessary items to the list??

Wayne....... THANK YOU SO MUCH. that is always how I have felt... and have never been able to articulate it that way. <333

[ssssnakeluvr]

speaking of snakes eating insects.I saw a thread on another forum where copperheads were climbing into bushes and eating cicadas.apparently they love them and it is quite common.
thats not unusual for them...however they can digest them and get nourishment from them....garters don't get nourishment from insects....racers and green snakes eat insects..they were built by nature to do that...it's best to stick with their known diet..:D

[person365]

but kyle's first snake from about three years ago ate crickets all the time and lived for 8 months until he was accidently killed from the water being to hot from his bath.

[adamanteus]

I wish I hadn't missed this topic while it was still 'hot'.
I'm inclined to agree with Stefan.... the fact that a Garter will accept a waxworm from forceps in captivity in no way suggests that they would eat such prey in the wild. My garters will accept pretty much anything from the forceps. Show me evidence of arthropod prey remains in the faeces of a wild Garter, and I might get interested.

[Zephyr]

I wish I hadn't missed this topic while it was still 'hot'.
I'm inclined to agree with Stefan.... the fact that a Garter will accept a waxworm from forceps in captivity in no way suggests that they would eat such prey in the wild. My garters will accept pretty much anything from the forceps. Show me evidence of arthropod prey remains in the faeces of a wild Garter, and I might get interested.I might just be the guy to test that. :)
You've got me going James. lol

[infernalis]

"Herping for poop" Kyle????

Sorry bro, had to.. The door was wide open for that.:D

[Zephyr]

"Herping for poop" Kyle????

Sorry bro, had to.. The door was wide open for that.:D
"Where finds snake food, one finds snake." < My motto.
Motto amendment> "Where ones finds snakes, one finds snake poo."
:)

[Faunaofthenorth]

personally I wouldn't give them insects period....(sorry, missed most fo the last few days home sick...still trying to kick it!).... I force fed some insects to garters when I was young and didn't know any better...they passed out the back end looking just like they did when they went in....I gave them flies and they came out looking like flies..not snake poop if they had been able to digest them.....

LOL that is funny, but true garters should not be fed insects if they dont have to...although i have observed a baby eastern garter trying to eat a small spider in the wild, it only got it half way into its mouth until it just sat there staring..then it regurgitated it...and also i found snake poop one time next to a den and i noticed that there was an insect in it, but like you said it looked just like it went it, just dried up a bit

[salzar]

hi all do you remember the BP or burmese python that ate a heating pad , it was on tv a couple of years ago, yea the guy did not think such a thing would happen and had to have the poor thing operated on , it survived luckly but hay you never know.
bye
michelle

[drache]

my friend's kingsnake had a catnip mouse cat toy half swallowed before they realized what he was doing