releasing baby ribbons far from original habitat?

[gellfex]

We collected an eastern ribbon 3 weeks ago in the Catskill mountain area, 2 hrs from home. It finally ate last week, today it had babies. Not what I signed on for! It's hard to believe a snake that slim was gravid.

Among the release options (unless someone near Jersey City wants them) are local freshwater ponds in Hudson County NJ. They're urban but with a fair amount of habitat. Or I can take them this weekend to Long island NY and release them in the Peconic River wild area near Riverhead. While the Ribbon is considered indigenous to both areas, I have no idea of the odds of a population in either location.

Also, should I consider releasing the mother also and keeping several babies who might tame better than a wild snake?

Boy, it's never simple!

[infernalis]

Please do not take offense, but releasing any species anywhere except where it belongs is considered a big no no.

We never really tame a snake, they train us to accept them.

My baby ribbons are holy terrorists....

[gellfex]

Please do not take offense, but releasing any species anywhere except where it belongs is considered a big no no.

We never really tame a snake, they train us to accept them.

My baby ribbons are holy terrorists....

Any baby ribbon care tips to share? They're pretty thin here as far as searching has shown. It seems like little fish chunks is the way since they're unlikely to take little worms.

As for release, I wouldn't dream of releasing a non-native species, but that isn't the case here. My googling has shown they're native to all of NJ and LI. I just don't know that there's an existing population in those locations I mentioned. Do you define "belongs" only in the exact location of collection?

[infernalis]

I know a lot of people say its a big deal, but ribbons will start easily on small feeder fish, I place mine in a Small sandwich box with the fish flopping about in there, no water..

Due to availability, Rosie reds are the simplest, not for long term diet, but for starter food, they are a perfect size for babies. You would ween them off rosies before any ill effects would even be noticed.

Click the lid shut and wait, They will probably try and bite, it's harmless, and to me quite funny, especially when your fingers smell of fish:D

The problem with your release strategy is that if in fact no colony exists, you could possibly introduce one, or worse yet discover that the reason that no colony exists is lack of adequate food supply, or a predator higher up the food chain. Many variables exist.

So in all honesty the prognosis for those released babies would be grim.

There are places that can help you find homes for the baby snakes, look up your local Herp society, Offer them to forum members:D

Please do NOT put a free snake ad in the paper, That would be worse than dumping them on the ground.

[gellfex]

Thanks Wayne,

I would be happy to let any snake fancier have them, but I don't want to start shipping them around. It doesn't look like the classifieds here get much use either.

I understand your concerns about the release, but frankly it doesn't seem ecologically unsound, maybe just bad for the snakes. In fact, some of these urban ponds might need a little reintroduction of native species. Some areas are industrial zones recovering after being turned into parks, and 1 nearby pond is a 15 acre walled reservoir that had been abandoned 20 years and gone fallow, only now being rediscovered as an urban nature preserve full of sunfish, bass and wildlife. Maybe they NEED some ribbons to balance the little ecology there!

All I'm saying is it's not like releasing the boas in the everglades or red eared sliders everywhere. They do belong here, but may be absent due to past human pressure. But snakes are resilient. My son's school sits on a redeveloped industrial brownfield. He discovered a garter that had made it's home in a 3 foot strip of greenery between 2 fences. Every recess he would check on him. That snake would be out sunning even in December if the temps got above 50! Who knows what he'd find to eat then.

[infernalis]

Sounds like you had already made your choice...

[Stefan-A]

I agree, Wayne.

[infernalis]

Thanks Stefan.

Personally, I would drive back to where they originated from.

[Odie]

If you need a home for two of them :D
Please let me know I will pay for the shipping :cool:

[gellfex]

Thanks Stefan.

Personally, I would drive back to where they originated from.

Really? Easy for you to say. A 4 hr round trip at today's gas prices rather than release snakes in their indigenous area?

There's only 7 of them. Maybe I'll find them homes anyway. Perhaps we should be keeping a couple of babies and releasing the mother to end up with tamer pets.

[Stefan-A]

Really? Easy for you to say. A 4 hr round trip at today's gas prices rather than release snakes in their indigenous area?
That is the right thing to do, yes.

[Zephyr]

My baby ribbons are holy terrorists....
That makes me feel really good Wayne. lol

[gellfex]

That is the right thing to do, yes.

It appears the point is moot since I seem to have takers for the snakes. But I am a naturally argumentative person:D

I don't see a real compelling case made by either of you for "place of capture" release rather than another part of the established range of the species. Yes, the snakes might not make it if the local habitat isn't "right" for some reason. But, assuming (with no evidence either way) that there isn't a local population of ribbons, re-introduction of a once native species is done all the time with the assumption of high mortality among the animals. I think of Falcons, Condors and Wolves as obvious examples of major reintroduction programs.

There's a webcam celebrity Peregrine Falcon pair nesting on an office tower a mile from me that lost 3 of 4 babies this year. Being wild isn't easy.

[Hornets23]

Whether or not the cases are compelling, YOU took them from the wild. Even if it is inconvenient for you, the responsible thing is to do what is in the snakes very best interest. Since you took them, you owe them that.

[gellfex]

Whether or not the cases are compelling, YOU took them from the wild. Even if it is inconvenient for you, the responsible thing is to do what is in the snakes very best interest. Since you took them, you owe them that.

You do make a point.

Just to be clear, I didn't intend to take "them", just 1! Nobody here would have snakes but for some wild collecting. It's the collecting for sale that endangers species.

[Stefan-A]

re-introduction of a once native species is done all the time
By people who know what they're doing (no offence). It's not something that should be attempted randomly by just anyone. It's utterly pointless and sounds like a really bad excuse.

Any of the arguments that Wayne used, outweigh the gas cost and inconvenience in my opinion. You'll have to excuse me if I don't seem to be putting much effort into convincing you, but lately the issue has been discussed ad nauseam and not just on this forum.

[Hornets23]

I know, and I dont really have a problem with a certain amount of wild collecting when it is necessary. I just think its important to give them the best chance possible if you're going to put them back....or it back.

[Stefan-A]

You do make a point.

Just to be clear, I didn't intend to take "them", just 1!
And nobody is blaming you for it, mistakes happen. But it is the wrong time of year to be collecting snakes.


Nobody here would have snakes but for some wild collecting.Some wild collecting, not every time somebody wants a new snake.


It's the collecting for sale that endangers species.Both endanger species. Even though collecting for sale causes significant losses because of how the snakes are treated, collecting for your own needs is not that much better and certainly worse than buying a captive bred animal.

[jitami]

Whether or not the cases are compelling, YOU took them from the wild. Even if it is inconvenient for you, the responsible thing is to do what is in the snakes very best interest. Since you took them, you owe them that.

This is my opinion as well... whether you meant to take a gravid mom or not, it's still your doing. I'm not trying to be harsh here. I understand things happen and you just have to do the best you can to rectify the situation you created. Without any ecological education I'm going to throw a couple of ideas out at Stefan and others with more experience and education than I and let's see if a compromise can be found... and I know this may be a moot point in this particular case, but I would still like to know the answers...

1)Let's say gellfex can go out and find a viable ribbon population in some of the ponds closer to home. Would it then be ok to release the babies in this location?

2)If no ribbon population can be found locally, would it be ok to feed & house these babies over the winter and then drive them back to the original capture sight next spring/summer and then release them? I have a feeling I know the answer to this one, but...

3)Other than rehoming the babies to live captive lives, are there any other compromises that could work?

Again, just curious... I would have a weekend drive planned to release them. Make a day of it, teach the kids an invaluable lesson, etc.

Good luck, whatever you decide gellfex..

[Stefan-A]

1)Let's say gellfex can go out and find a viable ribbon population in some of the ponds closer to home. Would it then be ok to release the babies in this location?
In my (professional?) opinion, it's best not to mix populations in the wild.


2)If no ribbon population can be found locally, would it be ok to feed & house these babies over the winter and then drive them back to the original capture sight next spring/summer and then release them? I have a feeling I know the answer to this one, but... I have a feeling that you do. ;)


3)Other than rehoming the babies to live captive lives, are there any other compromises that could work?I'll keep an open mind, in case somebody comes up with a good idea.

[jitami]

In my (professional?) opinion, it's best not to mix populations in the wild.

Even babies? Due to possible illness/parasites/etc? Or for another reason?

[Stefan-A]

Even babies? Due to possible illness/parasites/etc? Or for another reason?
Illness and the possible long-term impact on genetic diversity. There are certain problems with releasing fish from other rivers or lakes, for example. Either they get outcompeted by the local population, they outcompete it and thus eliminate a unique set of genes (which leads to a reduced biodiversity), or the sudden influx of more animals increase the pressure on the food source and cause the whole population to collapse, although the last one is more of a problem with bigger release projects.

Sorry, I'm too tired to go into details. It's just a bad idea to release animals in the wrong area. If you don't have any idea what the consequences will be, it's best not to do it.

[jitami]

Makes sense, Stefan. Thanks.

[Hornets23]

Animals from different areas have evolved to deal with different ecological pressures. They are genetically equipped with the ability to deal with certain things and if you release them in a different area, they might not be equipped. I know that you're not located THAT far from where you got them but it could affect their ability to survive.

[Stefan-A]

Animals from different areas have evolved to deal with different ecological pressures. They are genetically equipped with the ability to deal with certain things and if you release them in a different area, they might not be equipped. I know that you're not located THAT far from where you got them but it could affect their ability to survive.
Reproductive isolation may still have occurred.

Does the new habitat resemble the old one? Is it at the same altitude? Is the climate the same? Are the prey animals the same? Do they follow the same yearly rhythm? There are so many factors that may have guided the development of that particular population in a different direction than the populations that surround it.

This is more general, doesn't necessarily apply to this case.

[drache]

here's my update
Johann brought me five of the babies the night before last
he's keeping two and is planning to release the mom where he found her next time he goes
I got some guppies for the babies and my . . . - are they aggressive eaters!
I had to break up several food fights, one of them a three-way
anyway - here's a pic of a couple

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3197/2766963185_12a6d7f308_b.jpg

[infernalis]

Rhea that is great news in more ways than one....:D:D

Kudos to both of you:)

[anji1971]

What a nice way to work it out!
Very pretty babies...........congrats!:)

[drache]

they are available for adoption and the remaining ones will probably end up in the PS107 science class room, after we work out some security kinks to protect them from the occasional moronic type of young person that invariably occurs mixed in with all the wonderful, smart and thoughtful ones we know to be in the majority
with the appetite they showed, I doubt that switching them to pinks will be much of a problem - I'll start them the moment they start going for fish-scented finger

[jitami]

Very nice Rhea & Johann! Thanks for the pics, too. They're adorable!

[infernalis]

the moment they start going for fish-scented finger

Too funny, thanks for the smile this fine morning!:D

[GartersRock]

Too funny, thanks for the smile this fine morning!:D

Me too! I know all to well how that is! :D:p

[gellfex]

Thanks again Rhea for taking them, and the wonderful tour of your collection! I wasn't sure I should publicly post about the transfer since you PM'd me about it.

Mom and 2 kids are also eating great, one took a minnow out of my fingers today while sitting in my hand. She calms down when handled within a few minutes, my son handled her today for the 1st time, and was thrilled.

here's the lady

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v358/gellfex/IMG_0347_editedsm-email.jpg

[Elliot]

Nice ribbon! And I'm glad you got everything worked out!:)

[drache]

hi mom with the full belly . . .
it was really nice meeting you, Johann