PUGET Update (Vet Visit & more ;))

[mikm]

Hello all … Have a seat as this will be a long read !As I previously stated I am “not a big fan of taking garters to a vet”. I suspect my personal reasons are twofold. First and foremost is that most reptile vets are unfamiliar with garters. Also, I would be very disappointed if the vet prescribed the same treatment I can find on the net. Lastly (threefold ?? ;)) is ones comfort level in *doctoring* an animal. So … that said here’s my story …

THE VET …
I totally lucked out here … She is fantastic. Her following two appointments canceled so I got to spend LOTS of time there and learned much ! If anyone resides in the South Jersey area I would be more then happy to recommend this vet …

OBSERVATIONS …
Female #1
· vet concurred that worms in pic are tapeworms (gotta’ luv a dig cam)
· sticky saliva and slight bubbling all from the left side of her mouth.
· trachea is clear and NOT the source of the bubbles J
· left side of her mouth is slightly enflamed, but did not bleed when swabbed.

Female #2
· her mouth is clearly inflamed, left side worse then right side.
· mouth color is dark pink, obvious discomfort, her mouth bled being swabbed.
· slight bubbling but trachea is also clear ! (dodged another bullet there !)

DIAGNOSIS …
Tapeworms
· Praziquantel (Droncit) _ Dosage : 8mg/k /this is an over the counter cat de-wormer but the Pugets got shots. This med is very bitter tasting and the injection stings.
· Necessity of 2nd follow up dose to be determined

Mouth Rot
· Baytril for 10 to 28 days in an oral suspension (Baytril liquid was compounded at a pharmacy at Vets calculated dosage based on their current weights.)
· Daily applications of diluted (1%) Nolvasan or Betadine swabbed directly onto the affected mouth area with a q-tip. Must ensure snakes mouth is held horizontally to ensure none is swallowed.
· Daily applications of aloe to the inside, irritated mouth area. I have live aloe plants at home so I use the “juice/gel” directly from a leaf. This is non-toxic and can be swallowed. This promotes healing and soothes inflamed skin.

SOOO …I can happily report that they all ate like pigs yesterday (2nd day of treatment) and they are all very active. I believe my *saving grace* so to speak in all of this is that it was detected and treated before they stopped feeding. I feel very confident that this group will rebound from all of this !! They are very beautiful animals, very inquisitive, & quite the little personalities ... marian


MISC UPDATES …
· *bob* (my snake’s baby daddy ;)) did answer my email. At the moment I am not at liberty to divulge the contents of that email. Should that change I will share with all

· I have been told by fellow hobbyists that *Panacur* does NOT work very effectively in Garters. Remember that’s an *opinion* but from an experienced source.

[Cazador]

Thanks for the update, and congratulations for getting them in to see the vet. It looks like you caught the mouth rot in time, before the swelling prevented them from feeding properly or causing respiratory problems. Nice job! I'm curious whether you took in a fecal sample to have them checked for protozoan, roundworm, AND amoebic infestations as well? Your vet may only be treating the symptoms she's seen and may not have been able to diagnose other conditions without a fecal sample. I'm sort of pushing here because my snakes had roundworms, which have a direct life cycle, meaning any snakes housed with my snakes were exposed to the roundworms through the feces. Then the worms bore right through the skin to infest another host.

I'd like to offer a second opinion on the Panacur assessment since I suspect I know where the first assessment originated. My personal experience as well as controlled efficacy studies from two published vets (Klingenberg and Rossi), who now have over 50 years of collective, but independent, experience shows that panacur is effective at removing roundworms. It is not, however, suggested for use against tapeworms. It takes a minimum of three treatments to get rid of roundworms, and the timing must coincide with the hatching of eggs in the system when the doses are given. Improper treatment, however, will render it useless.

I got a similar "assessment" of Panacur's efficacy from *Bob,* but luckily I ignored it when my second pair of T. ordinoides started showing signs of illness. Not to be offensive, but I consider the previous sources (as well as my own experience) to be more credible than a distributor who continually offers parasitized snakes to his customers. This fact alone shows that his treatment regime and recommendations are unreliable. I wouldn't want anyone to become confused or scared away from using Panacur based on his faulty info. There's a lot more I could share about his recommendations, but I'll just say that following them produced two dead snakes. I hope this didn't sound too blunt, but he's scammed and misled a lot of people for the sake of a dollar, and Marian, you would have had a very similar and disappointing experience if it weren't for the experience of others who he's scammed. Please don't put too much stock in his advise. On the bright side, I'm glad you've found a good vet who you trust. Best wishes,

Rick

[Sid]

Glad you found a vet you are comfortable with and exspect a full recovery. Keep us posted.

Sid

[suzoo]

Mikm, I'm so happy you caught it in time, and found a worthy Vet!!! Good luck and I hope for their full recovery!!!

[mikm]

hey Rick ... sorry about the panacur reference ... I did say it was an someone's *opinion* ... my apologies. I am extremely greatful to everyone on this forum who offered their advice.

_ I would have never mentioned *bob* were it not for the impression I had that he had not answered anyone's emails. I think it would be safe to *assume* that if you have any of these animals one would treat as WC. Personally I am not angry at *bob* or anyone. I totally understand all of the things that come into play here with this situation and it's surely unfortunate. However, I'm dealing with a situation as it exists for me right now.

I have cared for sick Garters in the past but (until now) not for quite some time. There are so many advances in meds generally speaking so I am more apt to look for a *new* antibiotic, wormer, etc ... Or at least *new* to garters. We will be doing some follow up investigation. After the meds are complete the Vet requested a fecal *smear* not a float. She was very specific in that but too much was going on & I neglected to pursue the reason. She also swabbed the inside of the Big girls mouth & submitted it to be further study. I should know those results in about a week.

Again, I realize that some folks lost their animals and helped me tremendously by sharing their experiences with me. Hopefully I can give a little back by posting all of the medical info/knowlegde.

best regards,
marian

[Cazador]

No worries, Marian. I'm certainly not offended by anything YOU said, and I hope I didn't offend YOU. I think mentioning the panacur issue paints a fuller picture of his husbandry techniques. What burns me up is that so many people have fallen prey to his methods, yet he hasn't changed. They've (we've) paid a lot of money, only to receive beautiful snakes on their death bed. I, and I'm sure everyone else, appreciates that you're sharing your experiences.

Your vet really seems to be "on the ball." The fecal smear is being done after the initial treatment to see what remains after she's treated the most urgent symptoms. She's doing a fecal smear to look for live protozoans. A float would be better suited to find eggs (more difficult and doesn't seem warranted given the treatment already underway). The swab may have been to look for flukes and/or to culture the bacteria to look for Pseudomonas/Aeromonas sp. (assoc with pneumonia) and perhaps to look for other gram negative bacteria (associated with the mouth rot). It sounds like she's being thorough :).

Rick

[garterking]

I got a similar "assessment" of Panacur's efficacy from *Bob,* but luckily I ignored it when my second pair of T. ordinoides started showing signs of illness. Not to be offensive, but I consider the previous sources (as well as my own experience) to be more credible than a distributor who continually offers parasitized snakes to his customers. This fact alone shows that his treatment regime and recommendations are unreliable. I wouldn't want anyone to become confused or scared away from using Panacur based on his faulty info. There's a lot more I could share about his recommendations, but I'll just say that following them produced two dead snakes. I hope this didn't sound too blunt, but he's scammed and misled a lot of people for the sake of a dollar, and Marian, you would have had a very similar and disappointing experience if it weren't for the experience of others who he's scammed. Please don't put too much stock in his advise. On the bright side, I'm glad you've found a good vet who you trust. Best wishes,
Rick

MARIAN: Great job on taking care of the little ones. Once the're healthy again, they will be a great joy to you.

On another note.............I just cannot sit silent anymore about "bob". It just pi$$es me off to no end that I continue to read these stories about his snakes. I asked in another post if there were any positive stories from anyone who purchased from this clown. Guess what? The thread died without a positive remark to him. The only thing that stopped me from buying a couple puget's from him were the horror stories on here (and some private messages back and forth from some of the members here - Thanks guys), and the fact that when I asked him about some of the sick snakes (very politely), his mood changed. He said "If I didn't like it then he didn't care. He would sell them to someone else".

I also stated in that post that I didn't want to prejudge, but I don't think I am anymore. The guy is a scam artist. He doesn't care about the snakes he is selling or who he sells to. He cares only about the almighty dollar. I for one volunteer to be the first to email him that until he takes better care of these awesome snakes, I won't buy anything from him. If enough people were to do the same, maybe he would get the hint. It's really a shame that the only real source of the puget's, seems to be him. Sad to say but as long as there is a demand and people buy from him, then why would he ever change. Maybe we could send him to this board so he could read/see what's being said about him. I know this sounds harsh and it's only my opinion, but I think it's something that needs to get done.

Marian: I wish you and your little ones all the best and hope they recover nicely. Maybe with some help from members here and your healthy ones, you can be the new supplier of the puget sound garters. I think that's what is needed, and since the demand is there, it's also wanted. Again, all the best. Ok, now that I got that off my chest, I feel better.

[suzoo]

I would like to give Garterking a standing ovation!!!
Bob is lucky I don't have his e-mail address! I have never bought from him, but I have heard only tragic stories from those who have, and it makes me sad and angry!!!!

[GarterGuy]

Hey Marian,
Sounds like you've got a good thing going with your vet (it's soo hard to find a good herp vet, had one here, but she moved away...really sucks!) and it's sounding like your T.ordinoides (aka. "Bob's Pugets") are on the road to recovery. I wish you all the best with them and like GarterKing had stated, hopefully you and the others on the site who were able to get there Blues too pull through, can be a source of nice, HEALTHY, captive bred offspring in the future.
As for "Bob", I've now seen him on other classifieds selling other species of snakes (not just garters)....he's going to continue to do this as long as people are going to continue to buy. Unfortunately, there have always been and will always be "Bobs" out there who operate like this. It's not so much that he was selling wild caught animals....that's to be expected from a group of snakes that's not well established as captive bred animals, yet......it's the fact that he was falsely representing them as being well and healthy and had given very poor advice on caring and treating them. If he had just said, "Wild caught Puget gaters, not treated for parasites, ect.", then it wouldn't have been misleading to have bought from him and had problems with the animals. He knew he wouldn't be able to sell them if he was honest.....so he went the other route and here's were the problem lies. Well again, my only comment on all this is "buyer beware".....if you get animals from some guy named "Bob" (never did give a last name and I actually got emails from him at the start from two different addresses!) over the computer, with no history of the animals or himself, you could be in to be screwed! Personally, I'm sticking to people I know and trust.
Roy

[mikm]

thank you all for the kind words !! I really do find this sub-species attractive on a few different levels and I would love nothing more then to establish a nice healthy, productive group. Just because I enjoy them ! Have to run as my *other half* is starting to mumble things out loud like *you act as if all of this is normal* as I slide a narrow syringe full of Baytril down a snakes throat, lol ;))

peace out,
marian

[garterking]

Just an update:
I sent a very professional email to "bob" and let him know that I posted about him and his snakes. I took a couple days to think it thru before I sent it.
I also sent him a link here and told him others (no names) have either heard of him, bought from him, know someone who has bought from him, etc. I let him know that I posted what I knew and heard and that myself and others were not satisfied with him or his snakes. I told him that I was making it a mission of mine to find other boards that he advertises on and let them know as well, and that if he starts to keep better care of his snakes, and sends out HEALTHY ones that I would also let the boards know he changed his ways. I still have a bit of hope left.
I'll let you know when/if I hear anything back from him.

[Snaky]

That is a big statement, but it's a very noble one. New buyers will certainly be happy if you warn them about him.

[Sid]

Garterking, I feel you are taking the correct approach. My hats off to you.

Sid

[KITKAT]

I hope Cazador and Garterkiing will chime in here...

My ordinoides (if that is what they are, I am still not sure) that I got from "Bob" have been fine. After my concinnus had mites, I did treat them with frontline and later with flagyl.

They are in a 55 gallon aquarium, with a tough top lid, in my basement which generally runs about 65 degrees in winter. They have a basking light pointed at a tree branch that is propped up for climbing and lounging.

The substrate is about two inches deep, and is aspen shavings.

I put minnows or rosey reds in their water dish, or nightcrawlers in a shallow dish, and they disappear, although I never see them feeding. I assume they are both eating, however, as their condition continues to look good.

They are gentle and easy to handle, although they are a bit quicker than the gentle easterns I used to keep.

One difference I have noticed in their behavior is that they love to burrow. They are often under the substrate.

I have an inverted flower pot with two holes in the rim for entry, to use as a hide. The male spends alot of time in the hide, the female generally joins him for short periods of time and spends the rest of her time in the substrate tunnels they have made. Because of the burrowing, they are always covered with wood dust, as you can see in my caption photo (see February caption contest).

The male is about to shed... and when he does, what shall I count to confirm that these are T ordinoides, and not T s pickeringii?

[mikm]

I would like the same info as KitKat as I have never done a scale count. Interestingly enough, I found the following ...

Puget Sound (T. s. pickeringii), resembles Red-spotted, except back stripe largely confined to 1 scale row instead of 2 and top of head dark; Vancouver Island, adjacent coastal sw. British Columbia and w. Washington.

I found this description here >>>
eNature: FieldGuides: Species Detail (http://www.enature.com/fieldguides/detail.asp?recnum=AR0121)


If this proves true then my animals are pickeringii as their back stripe is very fine, definitaley/barely only one row.


BTW ... my ICU girls are doing very well ... I even got them to take 2 f/t pinks each (tossed in with their fish) this past weekend.

[GarterGuy]

Sometimes it's very difficult to determine what species you've got just by colour pattern alone. Within a species, subspecies and even from individual to individual you can have quite a bit of variation. Scale counts though, I believe, are a much better way of determining species, since this should be relatively constant through out the species. Personally, I don't like to limit it to any one characteristic, but instead take everything into account when trying to make a determination. This also includes, geographical info. on the snakes (ie. where they came from), size, body shape, ect., anything that can help me to determine what it is. You really just can't take one thing and say, "Well it has this, so it must be this."...that's just bad science. Bad...vey bad!:rolleyes:

[mikm]

thanks GG ... I'm not sure exactly how the scale count is done. I'll have to take a pic to do it anyway as I don't want add any undue stress at the moment. I could not find a pic of an identified ordinoides with such a thin stripe but I did see a few pics of pickeringii with the extremely thin stripe that's why I was asking ...

thanks for sharing GG ... this is such a nice forum :D

[Cazador]

Hi all,
First, I'm glad your snakes are still doing well, Kitkat & Marian. That's great news! Kitkat, yours were ill for a while, weren't they? The range of the T.s. pickeringii and T. ordinoides overlaps in Washington, so unfortunately that one doesn't exclude either. Sometimes, you see one of these blue snakes with a very blunt, rounded head. It is clearly a T. ordinoides. Then you see some with thin, more pointed heads, which make you wonder if they might be T.s. pickeringii. However, all seem to have 17 dorsal scale rows, which is a defining characteristic of the ordinoides. Here's that link about how to do the counts (Key to California Gartersnakes (http://www.californiaherps.com/identification/snakesid/gartersnakeskey.html)). Just click on the blue link on that page that says "Scale Count at mid-Body" to see a picture showing how to do it. You'll also notice that T. ordinoides usually has 8,9 lower labials, but T. sirtalis normally has 10. The dorsal scale count and the head shape seem to be the most reliable, though. I'll check a Peterson's field guide for more info and send PMs with more details if they're helpful (since I'd be plagiarizing).
Rick

P.S. Given the variation in head shape, but consistent scale counts of 17, I sometimes wonder if we may be dealing with hybrids between the two species? Sometimes their heads look VERY different from one another.

[KITKAT]

I have not sexed my snakes yet, but they do appear to be male and female. The female is larger and heavier, if I am guessing their sex correctly.

What do you think about the head shape of my snakes? (See photo of the female, below)

Also... no... they were never sick. It was the T.s.concinnus that I got at a local herp show, that were sick. I did use frontline on the ordinoides, because they had been in the same room as the concinnus. By the way, they burrow alot. That is wood dust from the aspen shavings that you see in the photo (not mites).

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/looking_glass.jpg

[Cazador]

Hi Kitkat,
To me, the head on your snake appears more pointy and triangular. Contrast it to the picture, below, that looks more like a T. ordinoides. Yours also has a VERY thin blue, dorsal stripe. From your photo, it appears to be only 1/2 - 1 scale widths? Both species have thin dorsal stripes, but the books actually mention that Puget Sound garters (T.s. pickeringii) have thin dorsal stripes. I wouldn't be surprised if the snakes in your and my pictures were different, but similar, species. I've been reading up on these, but using the descriptions to distinguish between them is still a bit confusing. The dorsal row scale counts seem to be the most unique characteristic between the two species.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/DSC05996.JPG

Here's another:
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/DSC05997.JPG

[KITKAT]

My snakes seem to have one scale row for the dorsal stripe. The side stripe is also quite thin, but I would have to check to see how many rows.

My snakes are also blue, however.

Do you think they might be a hybrid?

[Cazador]

I've questioned whether we're dealing with hybrids as well. I don't know enough about taxonomy to really say one way or the other, though. Apparently, T.s. pickeringii can be blue, red, melanistic, brownish, greenish, and probably even more colors. One of these days, I'll pull the dead ones out of the freezer and count their teeth. Rossman et al. has a very good key that uses the number of teeth as a definitive characteristic, but it also seems like a pain in the rear.

[GarterGuy]

From pics that I've seen, T.ordinoides seems to be an extremely variable species as well, not only in colour, but also general body shapes and such too.

[garterking]

[quote=KITKAT;4524]I hope Cazador and Garterkiing will chime in here...quote]

Hey Kat,
Glad to hear yours and Marain's are doing well. Although it seems like a sucess story so far, it's only becouse you both were very much on the ball and took the time and care where needed to nurse them thru. I hate to keep sounding negative but, didn't I read you both bought these from "bob"? If I'm wrong I appologize. If I'm correct, you bought sick snakes and ALL the credit goes to you for making them healthy. Like I said, I don't want you to always think I'm negative but I guess what I'm saying is you bought sick snakes from this guy, and if that's the case I wouldn't call it the sucess story I was looking for. I'm hoping to someday read that everyone that buys snakes from "bob" were healthy from the start.

Update: A week and a half and still no reply from "bob" about my email. Maybe he really meant it when he said he didn't care.

[GarterGuy]

Considering it's been well over a month since I emailed him about the snakes that I lost......yeh, I think it's safe to say he doesn't care.

[mikm]

hello all ... I see head shots are all the rage so I added mine, lol ;) I too suspect these may be intergrades ... The girls have been taking 3 large f/t pinks along with strips of salmon every 5 days or so, for the past few weeks. Their weights have increased drastically since their vet visit on 1/26/7 ... I weighed them all again on 2/10/7 ...

Big Girl _ 57grams >> 74 grams (med condition)
Girl #2 _ 42 grams >> 54 grams (mild condition _ had the worms)
Male _ 41 grams >> no change (fish eater only, shows no sign of illness)

Both girls have the extremely narrow dorsal stripe, barley covering one scale. The male however has a broader doral stripe consisting of at least 2 scales ... I distorted the background of these pics focusing on the subject and changed it to B&W to hopefully show the head shape better. Here are their head shots ...

[mikm]

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/head_Big_Girl.jpg

BIG_GIRL ^^^

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/head_girl2.jpg

GIRL_#2 ^^^

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/head_male.jpg

MALE ^^^

[Cazador]

Marian,
Congrats on the weight gain! That's a great sign, and since they haven't been brumated recently, I think it's very revealing about the effect the parasites were having. Really fantastic news!!! Also, if you look closely, each snake has its vertebral scale completely colored, and about 1/2 of each paravertebral scale is colored. They all seem to have small eyes (characteristic of T. ordinoides), and the internasal scales on the male seem to be longer than the prefrontals (behind the internasals; characteristic of T. ordinoides). However, the male also seems to have the most pointed head (characteristic of T. sirtalis pickeringii). The head shape of the girls seems to be much less triangular (like T. ordinoides). As you'll see in the file I'll send you, T. ordinoides have 16-20 maxillary teeth, and T.s. pickeringii have 20-26. I have some dead ones in the freezer that I can examine. I think the dorsal scale counts of 17 were VERY revealing, though.

All,
I've pretty much plagiarized the distinguishing characteristics, life history, ecology, etc. for T. sirtalis and T. ordinoides from two snake ID books (Rossman et al.'s 1991 The Garter Snakes and Western Reptiles and Amphibians 3rd Ed. by Robert C. Stebbins) and will send the files to Mikm, Kitkat, GarterGuy, GarterKing, and anyone else that requests a copy (via PM). Since plagiarism is frowned upon, I don't want to post the file onto our care sheets, but I'd be happy to provide individual copies to anyone who asks.
Rick

P.S. The head shots are very useful, and if you posted a good side view around midbody from slightly above the snake (~35 degree angle), we could probably help with your scale counts, too. A nice side view from slightly below the head will reveal the number of upper and lower labials. These nice, clear pictures are very helpful.

[garterking]

I just want to give a quick warning for all on here. "bob" is back on http://kingsnake.com/ advertising his cool blue garters. Read this entire thread and make sure you know what you're getting into with this guy.

I should tell you it's been a couple weeks now and still no response to my email. Just a fair warning to everyone, that's all.

[Tori]

There was a dealer at the last couple of reptile expos here that purchased 10 of them from Bob. I don't know how many had to be treated by a vet, but several did. He said that he had to ask so much for them to help pay for the vet visits. He was asking $150 each (and getting it). I'm thinking about buying one from him. The expos are once a month here. If they are all still healthy next expo I'll decide for sure then. It would be hard to do a scale count at an expo, so I should look for a very thin stripe and a pointed head? Anything else?

Tori

[Brian]

A couple of things about pudget sound garters (t.s.pickeringii) and northwestern garters (t.ordinoides).
The best way to differentiate them is by the head.
The eye size in proportion to head and bluntness of the head are the best characters to use.

sirtalis: large eyes and long head with defined neck. Much slimmer overall than ordinoides.
ordinoides: small eyes, blunt head, neck is not as well defined.
They are also very stocky looking snakes and don't get nearly as big as sirtalis generally.
They both usually have 7 upper labials.

The width of the stripes on ordinoides is useless in identifying them.
These snakes are one of the most highly variable in the Unitied states, perhaps only beeten by sonora semiannulata. These snakes can have thin stripes, thick stripes, two stripes, three stripes, one stripe or no stripe.
The stripes can range in color from white to yellow to orange to red to green to blue.
The background color can be, light brown, dark brown, green, black, spotted or not.
Jerimiah Easter had a poster on the net which has disapeared where he showed 15-20 different color varieties.
Alan St. Johns book, Reptiles of the northwest shows 6-7 variations.
Its not uncommon in Oregon to turn over a board and see three different
color variations. I have witnessed this myself.
Here are some pictures of some I found in one trip to the NW a few years ago.
Washington
http://utahherps.info/pics/nw_garter_wa_2004_0611_1740.JPG

Oregon
http://utahherps.info/pics/nw_garter_0stripe_2004_0613_1154.JPG
http://utahherps.info/pics/nw_garter_1stripe_2004_0612_1935.JPG
http://utahherps.info/pics/nw_garter_2004_0612_1449.JPG

I have always thought it would be fun to breed the different color varieties of
ordinoides but many of the really cool forms are only found in Washington and it is illegal to collect snakes their period. When you consider that the blue phase of ordinoides and the blue pudget sound garters are only found in WA, it makes you wonder how legal the snakes are that "bob" is selling. I know people who
had inquired about getting permission to catch some garters in washington to breed and they were denied. They have a very strict no take policy on reptiles there, and the antics of people like "bob" won't help to ever get them changed.

Marian,
Sorry to hear about your snakes, but it sounds like they are doing much better.
I hope the little red spot guy you got from me is still doing well.

[Brian]

Here are four more Northwestern's.

http://utahherps.info/pics/nw_garter_2004_0612_1938.JPG
http://utahherps.info/pics/nw_garter_2004_0612_1945.JPG
http://utahherps.info/pics/nw_garter_2004_0613_1154.JPG
http://utahherps.info/pics/nw_garter_2004_0613_1211.JPG

Please don't steel any of these pictures.

Also, if a sirtalis and an ordinoides bred they would be hybrids not integrades.
They are not the same species. I think it is unlikely that they are hybridizing.

[Stefan-A]

Great pictures! I can see why you are concerned about people stealing them. :)

[Cazador]

Hey Brian,

Thanks for the words of wisdom. I can apply (and have applied) the characteristics to some of the pictures on this thread, but I'd really appreciate your assessment, as well.

Rick

[drache]

I was wondering . .
Aren't there laws around the treatment of animals here and perhaps a government agency to report people to?
This Bob guy should get something a bit more than ta civilized slap he can just shrug of.
In my opinion, even a hefty fine is too kind for that guy - he should be locked up along with the sex offenders.

[mikm]

hello Brian !!! So nice to hear from you. Not sure why I did not think to ask you directly about the Blues as you are the "west" guy :) Yes, all of my Red Spots are doing very well thanks for asking. The male I got from you was the first garter I have owned that ate pink parts right from the start, no scenting required ;) He displays a nice, bright, pure orange color with his head coloring up nicely as well.

much thanks for your input on this Brian ... Enjoy your day !!!
marian

[ssssnakeluvr]

here's another coolpic of a nice looking northwestern......


http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//504/medium/ery_nw.jpg

[mikm]

hey Don ... wow, is that guy yours ??? in any event, thanks for sharing !!

marian

[Cazador]

Don,

That's one of the most attractive Northwesterns I've ever seen! What a snake!!!

Rick

[ssssnakeluvr]

Boy I wish it was mine!!!!!! I just happened to find the pic on the internet...collecting pics of garters... maybe someday....:rolleyes:

[adamanteus]

I wish I lived in the States! You're so lucky to have such diversity in your reptile fauna. Here in the UK we're stuck with our three snake species (one of wish is totally protected), and only one sub-species of each!! Yawn!

[Brian]

Marian,
From what I have seen of your blue/green garters. I would say your blue ones look more like ordinoides and your green one looks more typical of sirtalis.
I'm basing this on the head and the look of the stripes and the color.
I've never seen bright blue pudget sound garters only turqoise green or some other shade of green.

So the problem may be that you are still in need of a ordinoides boy and a pudget girl if you hope to breed them. If you could provide full body shots from above of all three and head shots from the side of all three that would be the best way to tell for sure. I saw the head shot from the side of one girl in another thread and it definately has the blunt head that would make me say
oridinoides. Its hard to tell with out seeing the body in relation to the head though.

My theory is that "bob", knows of a local densite near his house in Washington where both ordinoides and sirtlais hibernate and he plucks several out of it each year to sell. They do hibernate and live togeather but hybrids are unknown to my knowledge. NW's are thought to be slug and worm specialists which also prey on small salamanders, frogs, and fish. Whereas sirtalis in that area will likely eat anything they can take down. It would be interesting if you were to note any differences in the willingness of your green male (probable sirtalis) to take mice vs. your blue females to take mice. If you have them togeather think about seperating the male from the females and giving mice a full go with him. Also, despite the natural size differences in male and female sirtalis, your male sirtalis will likely outgrow your female ordinoides which would be another clue.

If you really want to find out what they are, You could do the newt test. If they can eat a toxic red newt from the NW and survive then they are sirtalis if they die they are ordinoides. Of course I'm kidding but that would be a sure way to tell.

Cazador,
I agree with all of the things you posted regarding these two species except for the width of the dorsal stripe. As I explained above that is quite variable in ordinoides. Thanks for providing the sources of your information.

Don,
That's a very cool looking northwestern you found a pic of.
So many garters so little time and space.
Too bad I have too many garters already.

[Cazador]

Brian,

Thanks a million for weighing in. As you saw, my comments are coming from field guides, so I totally defer to your experience. Don (ssssnakeluvr) and I think Roy (GarterGuy) also said that at least some of our snakes are probably T. ordinoides. It's nice to get those second and third opinions, though. Interestingly, some of my blue garters also show contrasting characteristics. Perhaps more than one of us were shipped separate species of different sexes. Conspiracy theories abound ;). Cheers,

Rick

[mikm]

hello again Brian ... How very kind of you to share your knowledge and experience not to mention your time spent composing your analysis !!! VERY much appreciated Brian ... As for my brood ... I believe the "newt test" may seem drastic but perhaps it's the only way ... :eek: ... Seriously I find these Pacific Blues to be by far the most intriguing garters I have ever owned for several reasons. Just when I believe I have one distinctive trait positively identified, "it" seems to change after further observation. For instance the head shape ... To me it does not ever appear as clear cut as an obviously shorter, square shaped head like pics of NW's I have seen. However it's also not pronounced Eastern trinagular either. It seems somewhere in between. Further complicating this I suspect is their natural inclination to flatten their heads in an aggressive posture versus their flight/flee pose which tenses them up thus "thinning out" their overall appearance head shape inclusive. To further add to these anomalies, when I recieved this 1.2, color aside, I definately thought my male appeared different then the girls, head shape and overall body seemed to be noticeably slender. As for feeding, HE is the one who refuses rodents whereas the girls appear to have that "eat anything" vigor. All of these Blues were seperated after their vet visit and will remain so at least until the meds are finished. As such I can monitor their feeding closely. I toss a few f/t pinks in with some salmon strips. The girls will now consume all (3 or 4) of the pinks along with most of the salmon offered, individually, to each. The male however will grab a pink but spits it out a few inches from his feeding bowl EVERY TIME !! I put it back in, he removes it, lol ... After repeating this process during several different feeding ventures (times/days) I have given up as I was wasting too many pinks !!!

Last but not least there is something about their inclination to remain passive that I suspect tugs at our emotions making them very personable and appealing to us. An adult animal (possibly WC even), straight out of a snake bag from shipping, are docile preferring to curl up in your hand and remain still. If you pry a little so you can see their face they oblige, then tuck their heads in when they have had enough. On their own, in their enclosures they appear very curious, propping their heads up, "observing" their environment. They are out and about at least 90% of the time. I intend on taking some better pics, specifics as you directed, this weekend. I'll email them to you privately then perhaps I can post the ones you feel display identifying characteristics.

THANKS Brian ...
marian

[sschind]

There is a website where people can post about their bad experiences. Check out Faunaclassifieds.com and go to their Board of Inquiry page. The site has gone through a lot of changes recently, I know registration is required and for a while you had to pay a fee to be able to post. I think that has been recinded however. Be aware that anyone wishing to post in the BOI forum is required to provide their full name and this will be verified through the registration process. I did not buy from Bob, I was ready to but a word of warning from cazador probably saved me some money and grief, so I will not make a post but if someone who has had a negative experience care to do so it may serve as a warning to others. If you are not familiar with the FC site I would encourage you to read it over a bit before you make a post. The regulars there can be a bit rough if you don't explain yourself well. Be sure to put in only the facts of the deal, the problems with the snakes, the lack of communication etc. You will get responses to the effect of "they were WC what did you expect" etc so just be warned. Be clear if your motivation was a refund or if you just wanted Bob to acknowledge the problem. I'm not trying to dictate the post to you, It's just that I used to spend way to much time on that site andI know how things can blow up in someones face if they don't approach the situation correctly. Also, If you do decide to start a post make a link to the threads on this board, and let people here know about that thread so they can go on and make their own posts. Even if you decide not to post, check out the site. Do a search, it just may save you some trouble in the long run.

Steve