Let's vent:What really ticks you off about the pet trade!

[Bill]

I am really ticked off about how we ,the micro breeders,the back bone off the industry,get treated. I mean first off you buy a pair of reptiles from the local pet shop for say $50.00 each. You breed them raise the young bring them back to the shop and they offer you $5.00. Ok it's happened to us all but here's my point. They base this on the price they pay for some crappy wild caught stuff that came in to the whole saler in a 55 gallon drum marked garter snakes X 1000. I have seenthis with my own eyes. I was at my whole salers once and looked in the snake room and here is a 100 lot of eastern garters,yeh I think this will hit home,stuffed into a 10 gallon tank with 3 inchs of water in it and a glass top with a rock on top. Needless to say they were all wiggleing like made to try and stay on top and not drown. So you mean to tell me that the animals that you raised in a small batch and hand cared for one at a time are worth the same as one of those stressed out, prasite ridden,half dead animals. I DON"T THINK SO!!! But do you know why they do this and get away with it. Because we bought the stuff in the first place. We need to stop buying this crap and start to insist on captive bred animals. Now I'm not saying don't ever buy wild caught. We alway's need new blood and sometimes that's your only option but we can buy from importers that take the time to deworm and clean up the stock before they ship it out. You would not knowingly buy a puppy from a puppy mill would you? Then why is it that we buy are reptiles this way! Or maybe I could be worng. LET'S VENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[adamanteus]

I'll be perfectly honest, Bill.... my first thought is 'Why are you trying to sell back to these people'?

[adamanteus]

You're right.... the way these 'cheap' animals are housed is atrocious..... so let's not shop there. I have seen similar stuff, and it makes my blood boil! All we can really do is withdraw our custom, and encourage others to do the same.

[Stefan-A]

Personally, I can't say that I have experienced anything like that. At least not that I can remember. But I sure as hell wouldn't buy anything from or sell anything to a store that threats their animals that way.

[Bill]

Well this is a wholesaler that supplies a large number of pet shops inthe north east. The bigger importers are even worse. It's not that I'm trying to sell back to these people myself. It's just the way it is. When ever someone bargain shoppes at a pet co or other chain as well as the small shops this is where this stuff comes from

[Bill]

Stefan-A chances are if you bought from a pet store thats exactly how your reptile was kept. After it came in by the box or barrel they slowly get broken down into smaller groups until the pet shops may only order 6 or 10. So you now see them in a 20 gallon tank on fresh paper or mulch marked up to the full retail price

[adamanteus]

I guess the message here is to buy from people you know... such as on this forum... and be aware of who you're selling to! The 'bulk trade' stinks... always has!:mad:

[Bill]

What I would like to see is a change in the way people think about h0ow they purchase thier reptiles. I we start to ask for captive bred animals and refuse to buy wild caught animals that have been purchased in mass then retalers will be forced to buy captive bred animals that have been better cared for.

[Bill]

absolutely. We as consumers can make the difference but we need to get the word out. So what tick's you off about the the pet trade James?

[adamanteus]

Absolutely! To acheive this you need to make the CB more attractive than the WC.... unfortunately people go off the price first. Can we pursuade the breeders to drop their prices? I doubt that.:(

[Bill]

oh well , tried to get something going here . Guess not. Got to go close up shop.by

[Stefan-A]

Stefan-A chances are if you bought from a pet store thats exactly how your reptile was kept. After it came in by the box or barrel they slowly get broken down into smaller groups until the pet shops may only order 6 or 10. So you now see them in a 20 gallon tank on fresh paper or mulch marked up to the full retail price
Nope, all have been captive bred, only the first two came from pet shops. Been to the importer, seen how they house them. The breeders seem to have been Swedish, very strict rules regarding the treatment of animals there. And we're not far behind in this country.

The first shop only had two, the second shop ordered a couple on my request.

[adamanteus]

I think perhaps the situation is worse in the US? In Europe (certainly in the UK) these kind of conditions are not tolerated any more.

[sschind]

I'm going to try to be civil here so please don't be offended by what I have to say. You've brought up several points and I will try to address them one at a time with comments.

First off, I breed reptiles. A few leopard geckos here and a few mountain kingsnakes there. That is what I am assuming you mean by micro breeders. Well, I hate to burst your bubble but we are a far cry from the "backbone of the industry" the big wholesalers sell more in a day than you or I do in a year. We could all go away tomorrow and the reptile trade probably wouldn't even notice.

Second, I know its an abomination but pet stores are in business to make money. Besides breeding I also own a pet store and I can tell you what 90% of the people think is a fair markup would make anyone laugh. I can't tell you how many people come to me wanting to sell their animals at prices that might as well be retail. They think that because I sell bearded dragons for $50.00 I should be falling all over myself to pay them $40.00 for one, or that I should be jumping for joy that they are willing to sell me a leopard gecko for $25.00 because I can sell it for $30.00 and make myself $5.00 in the deal. OK, that's opposite ends of the spectrum but I just brought up my examples to counterpoint yours.

Third, You buy adult animals from me and in a year they are breeding and you are producing offspring and you come to me offering these babies. Do you know how many people want babies, not that many. Most people want something a little bigger People come to me with 2 week old bearded dragons wanting me to pay $40.00 and don't understand when I tell them that by the time they are 2 months old and I can sell them I will have more than $10.00 into them and I will be losing money. Speaking of garter snakes, I have only dealt with a couple of babies but I'd bet it would take me 6 months to get one big enough to feel comfortable selling.

Fourth, Yes, you are right, the conditions in many wholesale facilities is atrocious. I've walked into a few that literally took my breath away. The stench of dead animals was appalling. Believe it or not, I never went back to these places. But, unfortunately many of my competitors either don't realize the situation or do not care. They are happy to pay cheap prices for WC crap just so they can turn around and sell it cheaply to their customers. I won't do that but that is the reason why I can't pay as much as you would like for your animals. They buy a wc piece of crap for $5.00 and sell it for $20.00 You want me to pay $15.00 so I have to sell it for $40.00. Well, I can tell you that 75% of the customers could not care less about where the animal came from. All they see is that I am $20.00 higher than the guy down the road (or the guy at the swap) and they think I am trying to rip them off.

Fifth, If you think it is so easy to get $50.00 for your reptiles why aren't you trying to sell them to the public yourself. Is it because you don't have the time? Well, we do, we have regular store hours and we are here even when we don't want to be. I Think that deserves some sort of reward. Is it because you don't want 20 strangers coming over to your house? Well, we have strangers coming in all the time. Some of them don't think twice about stealing whatever they can get away with. I think putting up with that deserves some sort of reward. Is it because you want to sell everything all at once and be done with it? Well, that is a good thing. For you. Now we have 20 baby snakes that it might take us a year to sell. If we can get them cheaply enough we might even make some money on them.

Sixth, who is this "we" you are referring to when you say "We need to stop buying this crap and start to insist on captive bred animals." because you know what? I agree with you 1000% I only sell CBB animals in my store with the exception of a few things that I may have took in from a customer who tired of them or some animals that I had originally purchased for myself but decided to go in another direction (most of these I try to trade off to other hobbyists however) I would absolutely love for no one to ever buy a wc reptile again. That would put many of my competitors out of business and it would open the door for me. So please, do everything in your power to convince people that a $50.00 CBB bearded dragon is a much better purchase than a $30.00 wc emerald swift. I would thank you and I am sure if he could the almost certainly headed for a quick death emerald swift would thank you.

Seventh, since this is a garter snake forum I am assuming you have an interest in garter snakes. Well, another news flash, there are not that many of us. Most people do not have the patience to deal with a garter snake. Most are rather flighty, they have a tendency to musk, and babies can be a real pain in the...to feed. Why buy something like that when there are so many other choices out there. Besides if they wanted a garter snake chances are they could catch their own.

OK, I've gone on enough. As a fellow breeder I can see your point but hopefully I have made mine a little clearer. The one thing I would hope that you take from all of this is what adamanteus said, "why are you trying to sell back to these people" If they are truly as bad as you claim it should come as no surprise that they act the way they do. I do not know what to tell you to do with your babies. If you lived near me I would say come in and we could talk. I might not be able to offer you what you think your babies are worth but hopefully I could get you to see where I am coming from. I know that you may not be like those people I am referring to in my examples, and you may (or you may not) be saying "you don't sound like the pet store owners I am talking about either" and so we are all well and good about this. I honestly meant nothing I said as an offense and I sincerely hope that you were not offended by anything I did say. I long for the day when I can get out of the retail business and make a living just selling my snakes at shows etc. But until that day comes, if it ever does, I am here doing what I know how to do. We pet store owners may rank right up there with used car salesmen and lawyers when it comes to garnering respect but I would just caution you not to paint us all with the same brush.

[adamanteus]

I wish we had a 'clapping' emoticon! Well done Sschind! A better thought out and worded post I haven't seen in a long time. Kudos.
It is easy for us, as the 'end user' to judge others, but we should remember that there is a financial side to this.... many of us are quick to try to turn a quick buck, when we see the opportunity.... I think Sschind has shown us a little of the real world here, that we might normally try to ignore.
I can see this developing into an interesting and controversial thread, let's keep it civilised and sensible, and have an interesting debate here.

[Bill]

Absolutely! To acheive this you need to make the CB more attractive than the WC.... unfortunately people go off the price first. Can we pursuade the breeders to drop their prices? I doubt that.:(
I don't think we need to drop our prices at all. What we need to do is educate people. Captive bred animals from reputable breeders are a far better bargain in the long run even at twice the price. The savings of just one vet visit more than off sets the extra cost and is a much more ethical way to purchase an animal. As long as people keep buying these wild caught animals that ultimitly come in from a large wholesale importer these abuses will continue and if the animal survives it will ultimitly end up costing twice the money

[Bill]

Sschind, I am happy to meet you and you did not offend me. It is nice to here that there is a ethical pet store owner out there you are among the few. Let me tell you a little about myself. I am a commercial breeder of panther chameleons. My partner of this island earth herpeticulture works primarily with rare geckos and I do sell my animals to the public on the internet and at reptile shows. I am glad to here that you recognize the importance of captive breeding and the superior quality of a captive vs wild caught. I realize your frustration when someone brings you a baby animal and wants full price for it but I don't recall mentioning any of that. So I think you have grasped the hole point of this thread when I called it let's vent and tossed out a topic.

[infernalis]

I am going to chime in, but be careful, Wayne can sometimes be the king of rants.

James, It has been my intentions from the get go to produce quality snakes at very reasonable prices. (without chopping Scott's legs off doing so)

The best way to combat (I hate the example) Bob, would be to offer captive bred top quality Pugets, for the same price or less, and have lots of them to offer.

The best way to get a flame to everyone who wants a flame, breed as many as you possibly can, without crossing ethics boundaries doing it.

I have a lot more to add, just short on time... I'm sure this thread will stay around a while.:D

[Bill]

Sschind, If you don't mind I would like to address some of your statements or clearify some of mine.

1st yes the importers do sell more well maybe not in a day than I sell in a year. But then again I don't see them selling to many Quality panther chameleons or Australian and New Calidonian geckos but yes they do sell a hugh amount of animals. Might point was For every animal I sell someone has to go to a pet store and buy a cage,a light fixture,sprayers,bedding,food and on and on. Some body buys a $ 15.00 lizard and can end up spending $500.00 at your store. Buy this I mean the back bone of the industry, Maybe not the best choice of words but I think you get what I'm driving at.


On the second paragragh I agree with you Brother I feel your pain. And the worst part about that is they may leave and never come back. I was trying to look back to the days when I would be in the position of breeding something and then try to sell the babies back to the store. This was my attempt to include more people into this conversation. You are right small animals are not worth as much as something with some size on it. I don't sell my chams. until they are at least 3 monthsold and chams. grow fast.

It looks like I already covered 3


4 Well I agree with you whole hartedly on four. So maybe this thread Is to our mutual benifit. You see I am trying to educate people to the benifits of buying captive bred and here you are trying to provide captive bred in your store. But while your on the subject of things costing more why is it that there always seems to be 2 price scales. Most shop owners want to sell you all the breeding supplies you need at full retail and then you want to base the price you pay to a breeder on what the WC crap sells for. It's no wonder breeders need to ask more for animals. It's a wonder anyone tries to breed anything at all.


5th well I think we already addressed 5 but have you know I work about 12 hours a day in my breeding room. Besides the daily cleaning and feeding I have to clean and feed and gutload the food build cages and on and on. You know what I mean. No sense preeching to you.


6th " We" I mean the consumer. The rest Yeh thats what i am trying to do.


7th well you lost me there. I think you were venting. Feels kind of good ha.


well I think adamanteus missed something. I was not trying to sell back to these people. I was speaking about a wholesaler who I will not name and I was refering to someone selling back to the pet shops. And the rest ,I agree with you. I would also like to take a minute and praise you for your hard work. You are absolutely right when you say that alot of people just don"t get it . They will turn there nose up at a beautiful captive bred bearded dragon at your store and buy some piece of crap down the street because it's $10.00 cheaper. We are on the same side my friend. We need to get the word out and educate people. I wish I did live near by so I could visit your store and we could talk. I would like to shake your hand. I run my business much the same way. Most everything is bred in house. I costs us both alot of money to do it this way. I think of it this way. Sure we could make more money selling the crap. These shops are the reson that every trash day you can find a fish tank or some type of cage out next to the barrels and they tend to be short lived. A business like yours built on honesty and integrity and concern for the animals in your care is an istitution built to withstand the test of time!!!


Hey Sschind , How did it feel to vent brother? Got any other gripes you need to get off your chest? LET"S VENT!!!

[Bill]

I am going to chime in, but be careful, Wayne can sometimes be the king of rants.

James, It has been my intentions from the get go to produce quality snakes at very reasonable prices. (without chopping Scott's legs off doing so)

The best way to combat (I hate the example) Bob, would be to offer captive bred top quality Pugets, for the same price or less, and have lots of them to offer.

The best way to get a flame to everyone who wants a flame, breed as many as you possibly can, without crossing ethics boundaries doing it.

I have a lot more to add, just short on time... I'm sure this thread will stay around a while.:D


Hey Wayne,LET"S VENT BROTHER!!!!

[GartersRock]

Seventh, since this is a garter snake forum I am assuming you have an interest in garter snakes. Well, another news flash, there are not that many of us. Most people do not have the patience to deal with a garter snake. Most are rather flighty, they have a tendency to musk, and babies can be a real pain in the...to feed. Why buy something like that when there are so many other choices out there. Besides if they wanted a garter snake chances are they could catch their own.

Cool thread!!
I agree with this in general but I disagree with a few of the statements... ;)
This is how the general public views garters, yeah. But I had to say that:

1. Most of my garters are not flighty and many where even wild caught adults. Certainly no more flighty then your average king, corn or milk!

2. NONE of my garters musk. I have dozens...

3. Baby kings, corns, milks and balls can be even more of a pain in the **** to feed. If not sometimes moreso then garters...

4. Try finding the right garter, at the right time, right when you want it.
And then try and find the species you want that isn't local.
And then try finding some morphs. Honestly. You can find kings, corns and milks in the wild too! Most people who are looking for a pet aren't going to know where to look when they want one.
And if you want a puget, flame or whatever well... Good luck!

But yeah. That would be how the general public would see it. So I completely understand where you are coming from. But you failed to mention that these are just "myths".

Anyways! Back on topic! :D:p

[infernalis]

Bill you say "Pet trade" so I will go to the very core of why I "dislike" large corporate pet trade.

Green Iguanas - The number of people who think they only get so big and live less than a year greatly exceeds the number of people who have even ever seen a healthy adult.

Large stores like Petco will import massive quantities of gathered iguanas, from the initial raping of nature to the pet store, as high as 90 percent have been known to perish before being sold. Of the remaining 10 percent, another 90 perish in the hands of incompetent owners. (sad numbers, very sad)

Monitor Lizards - see above, make it worse, there is the monitor trade... Sickening.

Unknown, unusual species - every day another unknown species gets offered on KS classifieds. MANY perish due to lack of understanding of the species. Why must 99 percent of the imported snakes die just because they are pretty?

Green (http://www.danceswithreptiles.com/Green.html)

Personally, I would have a difficult time running a pet store, I'd have to screen everyone to sell them an animal:eek:

[sschind]

I getting ready to leave for a show so I don't have time to make any long comments. I will say this, yes, it does feel good to vent. Glad to meet you Bill and I will check out "this island earth" for some of my gecko wants

I'll write more later when I have time. Glad I haven't offended anyone. It does seem that we can all get along.

Oh yeah, anyone Racine Wisconsin area (between Chicago and Milwaukee closer to Milwaukee) today check out sewerfest at the south hills country club on frontage road off I94. Probably not many garters there (they are flighty, hard to feed and they musk all the time:D but there will be a nice selection of CBB only animals. Definately the best show in Wisconsin. Its no Tinley Park but then again vendor tables are only $30.00 and admission is only $5.00 so what do you expect.

Stop by at the Tropical Oasis table and say Hi. Ask for Steve

[adamanteus]

Good luck at the show, Steve. Hope it's a good day.

[Bill]

Bill you say "Pet trade" so I will go to the very core of why I "dislike" large corporate pet trade.

Green Iguanas - The number of people who think they only get so big and live less than a year greatly exceeds the number of people who have even ever seen a healthy adult.

Large stores like Petco will import massive quantities of gathered iguanas, from the initial raping of nature to the pet store, as high as 90 percent have been known to perish before being sold. Of the remaining 10 percent, another 90 perish in the hands of incompetent owners. (sad numbers, very sad)

Monitor Lizards - see above, make it worse, there is the monitor trade... Sickening.

Unknown, unusual species - every day another unknown species gets offered on KS classifieds. MANY perish due to lack of understanding of the species. Why must 99 percent of the imported snakes die just because they are pretty?

Green (http://www.danceswithreptiles.com/Green.html)

Personally, I would have a difficult time running a pet store, I'd have to screen everyone to sell them an animal:eek:

I agree with you,Wayne,the green iguana is a disaster! Here is a high maintenance animal that needs special care and equipment to proprely house. Can grow to 5 or 6 feet or more and yet it has some how replaced the baby red eared slider as the first pet reptile. It's as stupid as taking your driving test at the Indy 500. This is no joke. These business practices have not escaped the eyes of our law makers. Every year bills are brought before the Senate and the house by I'll informed law makers that preach to other less informed law maker and try to outlaw all retile importation. Take a look at the laws in your own states and you will find a rapidly growing list of prohibited reptiles.

[Bill]

I getting ready to leave for a show so I don't have time to make any long comments. I will say this, yes, it does feel good to vent. Glad to meet you Bill and I will check out "this island earth" for some of my gecko wants

I'll write more later when I have time. Glad I haven't offended anyone. It does seem that we can all get along.

Oh yeah, anyone Racine Wisconsin area (between Chicago and Milwaukee closer to Milwaukee) today check out sewerfest at the south hills country club on frontage road off I94. Probably not many garters there (they are flighty, hard to feed and they musk all the time:D but there will be a nice selection of CBB only animals. Definately the best show in Wisconsin. Its no Tinley Park but then again vendor tables are only $30.00 and admission is only $5.00 so what do you expect.

Stop by at the Tropical Oasis table and say Hi. Ask for Steve
Sschind,How's it going? Glad you feel better. Sodo I, It was great to meet you. The gecko's are handled by my partner at another location. The number is 1-603-234-1296. Ask for john. Thanks! And the best of luck with your show!

[mycolorfulheart]

I wrote a paper about the pet trade about a year ago!

The things that bother me the most are

1. Animals that do not make good pets, or that do make good pets but should only be sold to an experienced buyer, being so cheap and readily avaliable. An example we're all familiar with would be green iguanas. They are amazing animals but how many die because the customer was told, "Oh it won't grow any more if you keep it in a small cage. All you need to feed it is lettuce!"

When I first moved out of my mom's house and out on my own, I went looking for a low maintenance pet. My friend talked me into getting hermit crabs (I should have done research on it first, but I trusted her, and she had been told some very bad information. We've both grown from the experience and she now believes hermits shouldn't be pets.) Well, hermits are incredibly cheap, found in almost every pet store. And the amount of misleading and false information on them is incredible. Pet store employees say, "They are the easiest pets ever!" And even published books have false information on them. In reality they are extremely sensitive to humidity, heat, and other hermits. The stress from being in captivity is the reason they don't breed--that to me sends off red flags that they shouldn't be in captivity at all! They need fresh and salt water, and a varied diet far different than the fish meal blends being sold as 'hermit crab food!'

The first crab I bought was about the size of my fist and estimated to be 20 years old. (At the time he was older than I was!) He had survived so long in the wild, only to die 6 months later at my house. I tried my luck with other crabs, and eventually all died but one. I tried everything to keep them happy but none of it worked. I gave it up for adoption to a more experienced owner. Any animal that stands a better chance of survival in the wild should stay IN THE WILD. No one cares about these creatures because they are primitive crustaceans, but let me tell you they are amazing and beautiful and don't deserve to be murdered. There is alot more I could say about hermits, and my second point, but I'm late for a movie so I'll post back late!

[Zephyr]

I wrote a paper about the pet trade about a year ago!

The things that bother me the most are

1. Animals that do not make good pets, or that do make good pets but should only be sold to an experienced buyer, being so cheap and readily avaliable. An example we're all familiar with would be green iguanas. They are amazing animals but how many die because the customer was told, "Oh it won't grow any more if you keep it in a small cage. All you need to feed it is lettuce!"

When I first moved out of my mom's house and out on my own, I went looking for a low maintenance pet. My friend talked me into getting hermit crabs (I should have done research on it first, but I trusted her, and she had been told some very bad information. We've both grown from the experience and she now believes hermits shouldn't be pets.) Well, hermits are incredibly cheap, found in almost every pet store. And the amount of misleading and false information on them is incredible. Pet store employees say, "They are the easiest pets ever!" And even published books have false information on them. In reality they are extremely sensitive to humidity, heat, and other hermits. The stress from being in captivity is the reason they don't breed--that to me sends off red flags that they shouldn't be in captivity at all! They need fresh and salt water, and a varied diet far different than the fish meal blends being sold as 'hermit crab food!'

The first crab I bought was about the size of my fist and estimated to be 20 years old. (At the time he was older than I was!) He had survived so long in the wild, only to die 6 months later at my house. I tried my luck with other crabs, and eventually all died but one. I tried everything to keep them happy but none of it worked. I gave it up for adoption to a more experienced owner. Any animal that stands a better chance of survival in the wild should stay IN THE WILD. No one cares about these creatures because they are primitive crustaceans, but let me tell you they are amazing and beautiful and don't deserve to be murdered. There is alot more I could say about hermits, and my second point, but I'm late for a movie so I'll post back late!I too have dabbled in hermit crabs; if there's one species that can be kept, it's the purple claws. Everything else is destined for disaster in captivity. ):

[Bill]

I wrote a paper about the pet trade about a year ago!

The things that bother me the most are

1. Animals that do not make good pets, or that do make good pets but should only be sold to an experienced buyer, being so cheap and readily avaliable. An example we're all familiar with would be green iguanas. They are amazing animals but how many die because the customer was told, "Oh it won't grow any more if you keep it in a small cage. All you need to feed it is lettuce!"

When I first moved out of my mom's house and out on my own, I went looking for a low maintenance pet. My friend talked me into getting hermit crabs (I should have done research on it first, but I trusted her, and she had been told some very bad information. We've both grown from the experience and she now believes hermits shouldn't be pets.) Well, hermits are incredibly cheap, found in almost every pet store. And the amount of misleading and false information on them is incredible. Pet store employees say, "They are the easiest pets ever!" And even published books have false information on them. In reality they are extremely sensitive to humidity, heat, and other hermits. The stress from being in captivity is the reason they don't breed--that to me sends off red flags that they shouldn't be in captivity at all! They need fresh and salt water, and a varied diet far different than the fish meal blends being sold as 'hermit crab food!'

The first crab I bought was about the size of my fist and estimated to be 20 years old. (At the time he was older than I was!) He had survived so long in the wild, only to die 6 months later at my house. I tried my luck with other crabs, and eventually all died but one. I tried everything to keep them happy but none of it worked. I gave it up for adoption to a more experienced owner. Any animal that stands a better chance of survival in the wild should stay IN THE WILD. No one cares about these creatures because they are primitive crustaceans, but let me tell you they are amazing and beautiful and don't deserve to be murdered. There is alot more I could say about hermits, and my second point, but I'm late for a movie so I'll post back late!

Hey, thanks for poping in to vent! I think you are a very special person to be able to care that much for a hermit crab. I wish i had that much heart. I do believe however that we are all conected on this planet. All of us part of a much larger eco system tied together in one big strand of DNA. How many breaks in the DNA can we make before it all falls apart?
So who cares about hermit crabs and iguanas? Well what if some new virus should break out and our own survival depends on an enzime that can only be found in hermit crabs or iguanas? A large amount of our drugs come from the rain forest plants and there burning it down. We don't even know what future cures have been lost. Were just throughing it all away.
Hey nice talking to ya!

[Stefan-A]

Hey, thanks for poping in to vent! I think you are a very special person to be able to care that much for a hermit crab. I wish i had that much heart. I do believe however that we are all conected on this planet. All of us part of a much larger eco system tied together in one big strand of DNA. How many breaks in the DNA can we make before it all falls apart?
So who cares about hermit crabs and iguanas? Well what if some new virus should break out and our own survival depends on an enzime that can only be found in hermit crabs or iguanas? A large amount of our drugs come from the rain forest plants and there burning it down. We don't even know what future cures have been lost. Were just throughing it all away.
Hey nice talking to ya!
We can wipe out 95% of all species and still have a functioning ecosystem. It's very sensitive to disturbances at that point (which is the real problem), but it should still work.

I did pull that "95%" out of my arse, but it's not far from the estimated figure, which I'll have to try to look up when I get home. The point was that the ecosystem can endure pretty damn much before it starts to collapse. Apparently, this has actually been tested.

[mycolorfulheart]

A large amount of our drugs come from the rain forest plants and there burning it down. We don't even know what future cures have been lost. Were just throughing it all away.
Hey nice talking to ya!

One of my teachers in high school told me a story from his college days. Him and some other students went to the Amazon to try and collected tree leaves in hope of finding something that would fight the AIDs virus. They didn't think it would work, but it did! Except, when they went back to find the tree, it had been cut down. :( who knows how many more exist and could be found. Some amazon animals survive in a very small section of the forest.

[Bill]

We can wipe out 95% of all species and still have a functioning ecosystem. It's very sensitive to disturbances at that point (which is the real problem), but it should still work.

I did pull that "95%" out of my arse, but it's not far from the estimated figure, which I'll have to try to look up when I get home. The point was that the ecosystem can endure pretty damn much before it starts to collapse. Apparently, this has actually been tested.

Tested by who? this sounds like one mans or womans findings and who are they? Are they credible. So what did they do put plant green grass in a bio dome and put in a sheep and a cow and because it didn't collapes some says this is all we need. Think about that for a minute. How can you possibly test something like. Stefan-A don't feel bad about pulling that 95% figure out of your arse. I think the person who did this study beat you to it! I learned in the many survival schools I attended, in the army for 15 years, that I can survive by drinking my own pee. That doesn't mean I want to!
But thanks for chimming in. " You really can't discribe what something looks like until you have looked at it from all sides."

[Bill]

Stefan-A, I just want to let you know how much your post has got my blood boiling. I am not mad at you so please don't take it that way. I am angry that someone acctually would have the nerve to publish something like this. Just take a look at some of the disasters that have have happened just by adding 1 foriegn species into a eco system. For instance the cane toad,the domestic house cat,the koeke frog. Not to mention invasive plants. You know ,I"ll tell you right now. I dropped out of school and joined the army at seventeen, technically my level of education is a GED. This does not make me stupid. It makes me uneducated. I have a Brother who has a Masters in english and a bachelors in computer science. I looked in his tool box one day and what did I find? Two adjustable wrenchs,one sae standard and one meteric! Now if you agree with my first point then the opposit must be true. Just because you are educated this does not make you smart. I don't know why people are always trying to get published. I think the first thing that should be taught is this.It is far better to be thought of as a fool than it is to open ones mouth and erase any doubt.

A PHD type once published a paper that stated that chameleons can convert beta carotene into a useable source of vitamin A in the mid 90's. The word still has not gotten out there that this is a load of crap. I cant tell you just how many captive chameleons have died because of this guy's need to get something published. Remember ,just because someone writes something down doesn't make it true. And just because someone has a title before or after their name doesn't make them automatically right! Ahhh....thats fells better.thank you for letting me get that off my chest! Have a Great one! Bill.

[Stefan-A]

It should be credible, the person who mentioned it to us is an ecologist himself with more than a few published articles. Not the kind of person who could afford to pull things out of his arse. It's not so much about how many disappear, it's more about which ones.

So, how many species constitute a healthy ecosystem? In this part of the world, for example, there are still exceptionally many open niches, due to the Ice Age. Remember, ecological niches usually overlap and if you wipe out one species, another one is usually able to expand its niche and take over some or all of its "duties".

[mycolorfulheart]

There have been 5 mass extinctions in the history of the earth. The most famous is the one that wiped out the dinosaurs, but that was not the worst of them. I have been trying to look up the exact figure on how much of life was left after the worst of them--my memory says 10% but my internet is hating me right now.

My point is that life has taken heavy blows in the past--we all know about the abrupt end to the dinosaurs (not just them but plant and sea life died as well). While one change can harm an individual ecosystem very much, given time, life will most certainly find a new niche and flourish. It is terrible to hear about one species or another being lost forever because of humanity's stupidity. But it is very comforting to me to know that life does have a very long, battlescared history. I doubt we could change that even by nuking the entire planet. Life is a tenacious, beautiful thing.

[Stefan-A]

There have been 5 mass extinctions in the history of the earth. The most famous is the one that wiped out the dinosaurs, but that was not the worst of them. I have been trying to look up the exact figure on how much of life was left after the worst of them--my memory says 10% but my internet is hating me right now.

Permian–Triassic extinction event - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permian-Triassic_extinction_event)

The article says 96% of all marine species and 70% of terrestrial vertebrate species.

[mycolorfulheart]

Permian–Triassic extinction event - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permian-Triassic_extinction_event)

The article says 96% of all marine species and 70% of terrestrial vertebrate species.

Thanks! :D

[Hornets23]

I dont know if the question

[Hornets23]

I dont know if the question is what the ecosystem CAN handle. Sure life can and has rebounded from catastrophic events. However, I think we have to look at the toll that humanity is taking. Sure, perhaps the earth can bouce back, but does that mean its ok to destroy and damage it?

[Stefan-A]

I think that the smart thing to do, would be to consider what's in our interest.

[Hornets23]

In my opinion preservation is in our interest.

[mycolorfulheart]

In my opinion preservation is in our interest.

Agreed! It's comforting (to me) to know that life will bounce back in the future. But in the short term we're poisoning our world and wasting our resources. Also sustainable industry is almost always better for the poor and middle class. Stripping an area of its resources generates alot of wealth, but it goes to big business, not to the regular folk who NEED the environment to survive.
Ok, rant over. :D

[Bill]

I just want to wrap this up by saying yes there have been mass extinctions in the past. the planet for the most part has always been here and for the most part barring any interstellar catastrophe always will be. I just want to bring up two cases to help make a point. the first is what was found by the first survey teams to go to the Bikini atoll after the hydrogen bomb detonation. The island for the most part was vaporized. How ever two species were found alive. Rats and roaches. These species survived because they were believed to be under ground at the time of the blast. The island now looks similar to the way it was before the blast. However it is still uninhabitable to humans do to the high levels of radiation. I will get to my point in a minute. two. I would like to point out the situation in Ethiopia. If you ever have a chance to see air recon photos of Ethiopia from WWII you will see a country that was covered in rain forest. first the country was slashed and burned. Grass was planted for live stock to graze. This was the first transformation from rain forest to savannah. Now that there was no wood to be had people had to adapt. shelters had be constucted from mud and grass much like that of the early settlers of the plains states here in the US. Because there was no more fire wood people had to adapt. They had to use balls of manure,dried, then burned for cooking.Now, when the rain forest was gone, so went the rain. When they had to remove all the manure, so went the fertilizer for the grass. When the grass died from a lack of fertilizer and rain the top soil blew away. Now we are witnessing another mass extinction. That of the Ethiopian people. Time frame,about seventy years. I don't stay awake at night worrying about the next species to go extinced. It happens all the time. Yes voids in a biotope are quickly filled by other species and this planet was here long before we were and it will be here long after. My worries are a lot less noble and a lot more selfish. We are not making this planet uninhabitable. We are making it uninhabitable for us! Now I know NASA has a plan. They want to build a moon base and colonize mars. Lets just ponder that one for a moment. We all know or should know by now just how hard it is to create a biotope for our own exotic pets. In some cases it has been so cost prohibitive that some species can only be kept at zoos and national aquariums and some have been declared all but impossible to keep in captivity. So how well do you think we will all do on mars? I think we would all be better off spending that money on fixing up the old place. I don't care about the big bang theory. How I got here doesn't really matter much to me. Fact is,I am here and I would like to stick around. So I make sure I don't pour toxic chemicals and feces down my well and I don't burn toxic substances in my home and when I hunt or fish I try to take only what I need. All I ask is that others will show me that same courtesy. I enjoy the fact that I am not the only species on this planet as well. Not because I want to frolic around the forest like Snow White in a Disney movie but because I like to eat and most of these critters are quite tasty. So it seems that it is in my best interest to look out for them and the things they eat. I don't care for the alternative. Sucking synthetic proteins out of a tube. I am sorry that these posts are not directed to anyone in particular. I have to frase them as more of a shout out. My typeing skills are poor and my time is short. I do want to respond to your posts as best I can and I hope you see my point. Thank you for taking the time to write and I hope you all have a great day!

Bill

[Bill]

I just want to take up another minute of your time if I may. The people on this site have been great and I would like to thank you all for your help and friendship. I wanted to try to show some appreciation by creating a thread. My intent was to give you all a place to vent. Please use it however you like. My hope is that it can be used to help all of you get through the everyday grind. Sometimes your just having a bad day and writeing about it will make you feel a little better. Sometimes you have a problem. Maybe some of us can help. Maybe you are just so frustrated about something and feel that there is nothing that can be done about. Maybe haveing a place to just shout out loud will help or maybe,just maybe it will make you feel a little better. Maybe reading about someone elses problems will make you feel a little better about your own. Maybe, you wont feel so isolated and alone. Do with it what you will but I think you should give it a try.

All The Best!
Bill

[sschind]

We can wipe out 95% of all species and still have a functioning ecosystem. It's very sensitive to disturbances at that point (which is the real problem), but it should still work.

I did pull that "95%" out of my arse, but it's not far from the estimated figure, which I'll have to try to look up when I get home. The point was that the ecosystem can endure pretty damn much before it starts to collapse. Apparently, this has actually been tested.

I'd like to see that test. I would like to know what they mean by collapse and what they consider an ecosystem, and weather or not they consider an ecosystem with 95% less diversity an equitable one.

You can take 955 of the books out of a library and it would still be a library but would anyone want to visit.

[Stefan-A]

I'd like to see that test. I would like to know what they mean by collapse and what they consider an ecosystem, and weather or not they consider an ecosystem with 95% less diversity an equitable one. Well, ecosystem already has a definition.


You can take 955 of the books out of a library and it would still be a library but would anyone want to visit.Depends on which books you take and how many it had to begin with. That's the point. Compare the Library of Congress to your local library.

Library of Congress - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Congress)

[Zephyr]

Well honestly, even if you were to take out all the topic-specific books and leave the encyclopedias and whatnot, you'd never get the details and all of the other intricacies of a topic-specific book...

[sschind]

Cool thread!!
I agree with this in general but I disagree with a few of the statements... ;)
This is how the general public views garters, yeah. But I had to say that:

1. Most of my garters are not flighty and many where even wild caught adults. Certainly no more flighty then your average king, corn or milk!

2. NONE of my garters musk. I have dozens...

3. Baby kings, corns, milks and balls can be even more of a pain in the **** to feed. If not sometimes moreso then garters...

4. Try finding the right garter, at the right time, right when you want it.
And then try and find the species you want that isn't local.
And then try finding some morphs. Honestly. You can find kings, corns and milks in the wild too! Most people who are looking for a pet aren't going to know where to look when they want one.
And if you want a puget, flame or whatever well... Good luck!

But yeah. That would be how the general public would see it. So I completely understand where you are coming from. But you failed to mention that these are just "myths".

Anyways! Back on topic! :D:p

It seems as though this thread has strayed a bit.

Amanda: you must be far more lucky with garters than I am. My puget sound babies (well more like young juveniles now) are all over the place and they both musk like crazy. My two baby melanistic easterns, same thing, as well as my yearling red sided male. My adult eastern Blacknecks are very mellow and the female has been from day one. The male was always a bit flighty but even as tiny babies they were not bad and they did not musk. My T.e.elegans are adults and while not as mellow as the female E. blackneck they are handleable without a great deal of trouble. It seems that as they age they mellow out. At least I hope so. As far as feeding, yes, they are easy to feed. If you want to deal with guppies or worms or something of that nature. Yes they may switch to mice but even if they switch readily it takes a quite a while for them to get big enough to take a pinky. Yes there are pinky parts but thats another messy step.

The problem with all of this as it relates to this thread is the pet industry. Most people who buy snakes as pets don't want squimy, squirty, psycho babies that require special steps to feed, and most pet stores do not want to or can't afford to buy babies and do all the work and take all the time to get them to a point where they are acceptable to most people. Hence, garters are considered second or third class citizens of the pet snake world. At least here in the US. What is the saying "familiarity breeds contempt" Attitudes may differ in Other countries but I am not in another country so I have to go by what I experience.


Bill: I think we agree more than we disagree. I will make one point though about the panther chameleons and my experience with them and keep in mind this experience is probably almost 2 years old. I know one breeder (yes just one breeder) who sells unsexed 2 month old panthers at local swaps for $150.00 to $175.00 She said if I wanted to buy 3 or more she would let me have them for $125.00. That would mean I would have to ask about $250.00. She sells sexable females for starting at $200 and males for $00.00 to $500.00 depending on things. Why would anyone buy a possible female from me for $250.00 when they could wait a few more months and get a male for only $50.00 more? My point is she thought she was doing me a great service offering them to me for $125.00. If she offered me sexed males then yeah, I could compete but not knowing what I would be getting made it not worth the chance. I know this does not take into consideration the WC issue but it does address the price issue. Then consider that my competitors are buying WC adults and selling them for $250.00-$300.00 and try to figure out how I am supposed to compete and still offer you what you consider a fair price for yours.

I'll weigh in on the Planet Earth thing simply by saying this (and others have said it as well) You are not trying to save the earth. You are trying to save the earth as it relates to your survival. While there is nothing wrong with that, it might behoove you to make the distinction. It doesn't make you sound like such a wacko.

By the way. the show sucked as it usually does for me. Its too early in the year and non of my babies are ready to go yet. Even the oldest ones have at most 4 meals in them. It doesn't pay for me to take my leopard geckos because anything I have pales in comparison to the ones Jeremy Letkey has and his prices are pretty good. I breed them for sale in the store mostly. I did pick up four decent sized, very orange dragons for a good price, a couple of CBB pictus geckos and I traded a few old used tanks for a couple of couple of dart frogs.

[sschind]

Well, ecosystem already has a definition.

Depends on which books you take and how many it had to begin with. That's the point. Compare the Library of Congress to your local library.

Library of Congress - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Congress)

Which definition is that. If you take an ecosystem with 1 million different species and take away 95% that still leaves 50,000 species. That ecosystem will probably survive, but, is that ecosystem as diverse and as stable as the ecosystem that it replaced. Certainly not as diverse and not as likely as stable.

The 995 I typed should have been 95% which I am sure you figured out. The point is, 95% less of anything that is generally considered a good thing is not as good, and diversity, be it in an ecosystem or a library, is generally considered a good thing. Now if that 95% just happened to eliminate all the bad things then I suppose you consider it a good thing but if we expect that th 95% would be applied equally across the board to both good and bad things then that would not be the case (I think you can follow that)

To take it back a bit, what I think you are saying, and I am not trying to put words into your mouth, rather just stating my interpretation of your comments so correct me if I am wrong, is that the extinction of a few species or even a few dozen or even a few hundred or thousand is not going to make a difference. If this is what you are saying then I agree with you 100%. To be perfectly honest I find it to be more than a little extreme that some people will stand in the way of progress to save some subspecies of animal which is more than abundant in other parts of the world. I am talking about progress that will be a benefit to mankind like a windmill farm or solar farm (if those are correct terms) and not just another shopping mall or subdivision.

My point is, and I am not sure how the original post came to this point, is that an ecosystem devoid of 95% of its original makeup is not as desirable as the original. That is my opinion and you can make points that might sway that opinion a bit but unless it is a really compelling argument (like the elimination of disease) then I won't change my mind.

This is a good thread and even though it seems to be leading away from the original intention of the site (Thamnophis) I enjoy discussions like this.

[Stefan-A]

Which definition is that. If you take an ecosystem with 1 million different species and take away 95% that still leaves 50,000 species. That ecosystem will probably survive, but, is that ecosystem as diverse and as stable as the ecosystem that it replaced. Certainly not as diverse and not as likely as stable.
Which is what I said early on.

It's very sensitive to disturbances at that point (which is the real problem), but it should still work.


To take it back a bit, what I think you are saying, and I am not trying to put words into your mouth, rather just stating my interpretation of your comments so correct me if I am wrong, is that the extinction of a few species or even a few dozen or even a few hundred or thousand is not going to make a difference. If this is what you are saying then I agree with you 100%.
Good.


To be perfectly honest I find it to be more than a little extreme that some people will stand in the way of progress to save some subspecies of animal which is more than abundant in other parts of the world. I am talking about progress that will be a benefit to mankind like a windmill farm or solar farm (if those are correct terms) and not just another shopping mall or subdivision.
Depends on your definition of progress.

[drache]

wow - what a thread to read this early in the morning
the pet trade . . .
in a sense we all are the pet trade and charged with changing it
I haven't bought live animals other than feeder fish or crickets from a store in a long time, and so I can somewhat tune out things that happen in that segment, but I do buy their stuff and did just this morning shoot off an email to let them know that yes, I'm sending them a photo of the damaged item, but I consider it environmental insanity to ship them a largish item they're just gonna toss and if that's what it takes to get the item replaced, I'll absorb the cost
I've also complained to Flukers about the insanity of shipping water crystals already expanded - shipping water in essence, but oops, I forgot - that's routine here, because the average person around here would rather drink unregulated water that's been sitting in plastic for a few weeks and has been shipped all over the globe, than risk their regulated municipal water supply, or invest in a filter
but this is america and gas is cheap - or at least it was when I last had a car . . .
when you have some extra time, watch this:
The Story of Stuff with Annie Leonard (http://storyofstuff.com/)
and if you don't have the time, I just want you to know that the most shocking piece of information I got from it is that in the US a whopping 99% of consumer goods end up it the landfill within less than six months
so, in a culture with this level of disposability, how do you expect people to think of their pets any differently
the fact that we have a pet trade makes animals just another consumer purchase - it's easy
so my personal dilemma is this:
which and how many animals will I breed? because I want them to go to good homes and not just make money and frankly, I'm not comfortable selling to a store
my babies are mellow and handleable and it's not about the money for me, but the care they'll receive

[infernalis]

To be perfectly honest I find it to be more than a little extreme that some people will stand in the way of progress to save some subspecies of animal which is more than abundant in other parts of the world. I am talking about progress that will be a benefit to mankind like a windmill farm or solar farm (if those are correct terms) and not just another shopping mall or subdivision.


In my opinion here, a solar collector or bank of wind turbines would be a fenced in area, off limits to humans (Except utility workers) so therefore make ideal habitat areas.

We have a large number of "Anti Wind" protesters, they think the turbines are going to be the end of it all:eek:

But now we are deviating from the pet trade............


how many animals will I breed? because I want them to go to good homes and not just make money and frankly, I'm not comfortable selling to a store
my babies are mellow and handleable and it's not about the money for me, but the care they'll receive

Rhea, you will always be special to me, salutations and kudos:D

Money is a powerful motivation to many, just look on the KS classifieds!