View Full Version : Possible WC hypo
Hey everybody. I'm new to garter snakes but not to reptiles. I'm am a full time breeder of panther chameleons. So why am I here? It's because of this guy or gal. I caught this in my yard yesterday. I have a lot of garter snakes in my yard but they don't look like this guy. Can any one help me out. I think it's a hypo. I don't want to give too much away but I live in the northern massachusetts,southern New Hampshire area of the North Eastern US. I would appretiate your opinions. Thanks! OK I am not having any luck shrinking these photos down. I will post them on my space. I'm bmssammon@comcast.net .thanks.
adamanteus
07-30-2008, 01:20 PM
Hi Bill, and welcome to the forum.:)
Stefan-A
07-30-2008, 01:20 PM
Welcome aboard, Bill. :)
GartersRock
07-30-2008, 01:28 PM
Very interested in seeing!
crzy_kevo
07-30-2008, 01:36 PM
welcome bill can't ewait to see some pics
Garter_Gertie
07-30-2008, 02:20 PM
Welcome, Bill! You found the best for garter info there is. Nice to have join us.
adamanteus
07-30-2008, 02:23 PM
I couldn't get to your picture from the link you posted, Bill. Could you try again?
jitami
07-30-2008, 02:28 PM
MySpace.com - Bill - 49 - Male - KINGSTON, New Hampshire - www.myspace.com/387225336 (http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=387225336)
This should be the link to his myspace... gorgeous chameleons and gorgeous baby garter! I'll leave the genetics up to the experts, but what a pretty baby! It would be interesting to see this one grow regardless :)
I will try to shrink some photos down soon!
MySpace.com - Bill - 49 - Male - KINGSTON, New Hampshire - www.myspace.com/387225336 (http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=387225336)
This should be the link to his myspace... gorgeous chameleons and gorgeous baby garter! I'll leave the genetics up to the experts, but what a pretty baby! It would be interesting to see this one grow regardless :)
Thanks Tami as you can tell by now I'm not to computer savy.
adamanteus
07-30-2008, 02:54 PM
Bill, once your 'upload photo' button appears, you can place your photo directly into your post, via your gallery. The forum software resizes it.
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/site-feedback-suggestions-questions/1008-guide-posting-pictures.html
GartersRock
07-30-2008, 02:55 PM
I can't see any pics unless I am logged into MySpace and I don't have one... Could you post 'em here for non myspace people?
drache
07-30-2008, 03:01 PM
I didn't see any garter pics, but welcome here anyway
jitami
07-30-2008, 03:15 PM
http://a178.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/90/l_6b6ffff969f2ab4f01c14c5f842b8da9.jpg (http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=387225336&albumID=0&imageID=9132934#a=0&i=9132949)
http://a852.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/66/l_9a483f8900d97904d21b367c96129fcb.jpg (http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=387225336&albumID=0&imageID=9132934#a=0&i=9132960)
http://a99.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/105/l_9d32e5b1b7910088a1cb6945e50e34ca.jpg (http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=387225336&albumID=0&imageID=9141214#a=0&i=9141221)
Garter_Gertie
07-30-2008, 03:18 PM
Tami, is that yours? DARLING! I love the pattern. Is it kind'a reddish brown? What a sweetie!
Welcome to the forum, Bill. Very nice little specimen. Looks like T. s sirtails- Eastern Garter to me. Very nice light colored morph.
welcome bill can't ewait to see some pics
Thanks Kevin jitami is helping me out with that right now.
jitami
07-30-2008, 03:20 PM
Thanks Gertie, but no, it's Bill's :)
Garter_Gertie
07-30-2008, 03:20 PM
Sid, I thought checkered because of, in the first picture, the blocks and how the corners match up so well.
Is it not Tami's then, but Kevin's? Whomever's, it sure is CUTE.
adamanteus
07-30-2008, 03:22 PM
Lovely Eastern, Bill. I don't think it's hypo.... but it's very well coloured and patterned, beautiful snake.
snakeman
07-30-2008, 03:24 PM
looks to be albino
Welcome, Bill! You found the best for garter info there is. Nice to have join us.Thanks gertie, I have to agree with you. So far every one I have talked to has been great! Thanks for the reply!
crzy_kevo
07-30-2008, 03:26 PM
i have to admit the red color matches george almost exaclty very pretty snake
Sid, I thought checkered because of, in the first picture, the blocks and how the corners match up so well.
Is it not Tami's then, but Kevin's? Whomever's, it sure is CUTE.I t's mine Gertie. Tami just helped me out by posting the photos for me.
adamanteus
07-30-2008, 03:29 PM
looks to be albino
Albino? Without pigment? I'm pretty sure it's just light in colour.:)
Lovely Eastern, Bill. I don't think it's hypo.... but it's very well coloured and patterned, beautiful snake.
Thanks james,So if not hypo what do you think. All the other garters I have are black and yellow around here.
jitami
07-30-2008, 03:31 PM
i have to admit the red color matches george almost exaclty very pretty snake
That's the first thing I thought too, Kevin. Wonder if it will color up like George?
crzy_kevo
07-30-2008, 03:32 PM
well i dont think so george has almost no checker pattern at all that one seems to have those colors only in the checkers
but still an amazing looking snake as stunning looking as george
i have to admit the red color matches george almost exaclty very pretty snakeHey kevin, What do you think, I am not familiar with George?
crzy_kevo
07-30-2008, 03:45 PM
here i will post a pic of george :D
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/3338/picture004jx9.jpg
and another
http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/4262/picture035qj1.jpg
GartersRock
07-30-2008, 03:52 PM
I think it looks like one of those darker albinos too... I even think the eyes look reddish on my screen.
http://www.albinogartersnake.com/images/price_caramel_albino_01.jpg
http://www.albinogartersnake.com/images/price_caramel_albino_02.jpghttp://www.albinogartersnake.com/images/price_caramel_albino_03.jpg
I am not to familiar with snakes. What is the morph? Are they easterns too?
crzy_kevo
07-30-2008, 03:55 PM
ya the ones in my pics are easterns too
Amanda are those albinos in that photo. I have never seen a albino garter before. I am more familiar with pythons.
so is there a name for the morph?
GartersRock
07-30-2008, 04:02 PM
Yes they are Albinos. A very dark phase.
There are many phases of Albinos in Garters. You can check out these sites:
Scott Felzer's Garter Snakes, specializing in aberrant garters (http://www.albinogartersnake.com/)
Alan's Garter Snakes - My Collection (http://www.gartersnake.co.uk/mycollection.htm#Thamnophis%20cyrtopsis%20ocellatu s%20-%20eastern%20black%20necked%20garter%20snake)
I personally believe yours to be a "Caramel Albino Eastern".
What do you plan to do with him? ;)
crzy_kevo
07-30-2008, 04:03 PM
i just call george the rusty morph lol i dont think there is an actual name cuz other than your snake i haven't seen any other eaterns with this color
Kevin, what do you call George high red . light phase , red phase thats what I mean by a morph.
adamanteus
07-30-2008, 04:04 PM
Humour me, Guys...... Albinos lack pigment, don't they?
1. A person or animal lacking normal pigmentation, with the result being that the skin and hair are abnormally white or milky and the eyes have a pink or blue iris and a deep-red pupil.
al·bi·no / alˈbīnō/ • n. (pl. -nos) a person or animal having a congenital absence of pigment in the skin and hair (which are white) and the eyes (which are typically pink). ∎ inf. an abnormally white animal or plant: an albino tiger. DERIVATIVES: al·bi·nism / ˈalbəˌnizəm/ n.
GartersRock
07-30-2008, 04:06 PM
Well... Very few albinos lack all their pigment...
Maybe there is a better genetic term for these "Caramel Albinos" but that's what Scott calls them. *shrug*
And his snake has red eyes.
adamanteus
07-30-2008, 04:08 PM
Surely if it is only black pigmentation that is lacking (or reduced) it would be amelanistic? I don't understand the term 'dark albino', it seems a contradiction to me.
aSnakeLovinBabe
07-30-2008, 04:09 PM
I am going to go ahead and say with these pictures it's just a pretty lightly colored snake. You have an eastern garter snake by the way:D. I occasionally find garters that look a lot like that, usually without a stripe though. It may be hypo in the sense that it is lighter than many garter snakes, but it (to me) doesnt look to be a genetic breedable morph or color mutation. I am not sure how the pics are turning up on everyone else's computers, but I saw all the pictures on his myspace and it's definately not looking to be an albino. Like kevo said, it very closely resembles his lovely Female eastern, George.
Could you maybe take a few more pictures... in sunlight or a reaaally nice bright source of light? A good shot of the face and eyes would be great, possibly on something natural, like some bark? I can't honestly tell from your pictures by the lighting.
Here is a lightly colored male that I found two weeks ago, who is also, like your find, quite a light snake.
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/Snakes/Garters/potter075.jpg
Here is a truely hypo female that I found last year and have had since.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v447/xxAngelinblackxx/014.jpg
Ok james I will humor you. I mamals you are some what correct. However it is not a lack of colour it is a lack of melanin or black colour. A hypo melanistic animal would have a reduced amount of melanin. A albino would have no melanin and a lousistic would have no colour but would not have pink eyes They are usually blue.
crzy_kevo
07-30-2008, 04:13 PM
uh oh now we have 3 smarty pants guys on the forum
lol just kidding guys
adamanteus
07-30-2008, 04:16 PM
Definition: A pigmentless white phenotype, determined by a mutation in a gene coding for a pigment-synthesizing enzyme.
Surely lacking melanin is amelanistic, not albino. I thought leucistics still carry yellow pigmentation.
aSnakeLovinBabe
07-30-2008, 04:22 PM
Bill is correct!
Leucistic snakes are the ones that are white. In mammals, many albino one's are white simply because most mammals are one solid color. There are both leucistic AND albino animals, both of whom look similar because mammals are already one solid color so naturally their albino form is one solid light white colors. The difference can usually be seen in the eyes, an albino creature should have reddish or noticeably light or see-through eyes. Leucistic animals almost always have blue or black eyes, but either way there is some blackness to the eye. Many mammals who are referred to as albino are technically leucistic.
Tyrosinase negative albinos are the same thing as Amelanistic, both terms mean that the snake lacks the pigment melanin (or technically, the tyrosinase that helps make it). So, an amelanistic or albino snake would have varying degrees of pigmentation (depending on the strain), he should have all of his pigments, excluding the melanin.
Hypo melanistic and tyrosinase positive albino are very similar. Both animals have and roduce melanin, in hypo's, it is reduced areas of melanin coverage, whereas in T positive albino, you won't see any actually black pigmentation or patches of darker skin, there is only a trace amount of melanin in their skin, and their eyes are usually dark.
Shannon,Thank you. That was truely impressive
adamanteus
07-30-2008, 04:32 PM
Okay, but who says so? It's no secret that I'm not any kind of expert on genetics, but I really want to know this. Every single scientific definition I can find tells me that albinos are white, lacking all pigmentation.... Like the three I already posted (including the Oxford dictionary) and this one....
Feathers (and scales in snakes for instance) can have multiple concentrations of multiple pigments. When one of these pigments, say black for ease of understanding, is missing, the color appears washed out -- that is, it is left without the darkness created by the black pigment, in addition to say, red and yellow (those are the three common pigments in nature). This is the generally accepted use of leucism -- some pigment missing, but some pigments left. .
[B]When all pigments are missing (which makes the dead cell outgrowths like feathers, nails, hair, scales, etc., appear white; and the living cell structures, like skin and eyes appear pink to red because of blood), this is albinism. So albinos look, as most people would recognize it, white.
Who says an animal with pigment is an albino?
And you didn't just look that up in the dictionary either.
adamanteus
07-30-2008, 04:35 PM
It's a direct quote, Bill. From a scientific paper. I don't claim to know this stuff. (That's why I put it in italics).
adamanteus
07-30-2008, 04:39 PM
Another scientific paper says....
The confusion stems from a definition of albinism apparently first suggested by Paul Buckley in which "albino" is all-or-nothing and all forms of partial albinism are relegated to the term "leucistic." Buckley, P. A. 1982. Avian genetics. Pp. 21-110 in M. Petrak (ed.), Diseases of cage and aviary birds, 2nd ed. Lea and Febiger, Philadelphia. “Perhaps more loosely and improperly used than any other term relating to color in birds, albinism is, no more and no less, the complete absence of all pigmentation, resulting in white feathers (for the reasons just discussed), pink eyes (no melanin obscures blood circulation, cause of the pink color) and light bills and legs/feet. Albinism is all or nothing, and a bird can no more be a “partial albino” than a female mammal “partially pregnant.”
So educate me guys.:confused:
aSnakeLovinBabe
07-30-2008, 04:41 PM
I am going by the way I have been taught and read ever since the beginning. Albino burmese python, albino ball python, albino checkered garter snake, albino sonoran gopher, albino black rat snake, albino cornsnake, all of these animals have a ton of yellow, orange and red pigmentation :confused:, no greens and blues and browns because without melanin, they can't have it.
There has always been debates on this topic, it's actually quite interesting.
James, I am trying to figure out exactly what your definition is here. If a snake that is albino is supposed to be white, then how would they differ from leucistics?
Also, what would you peronally call this animal here?
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/Snakes/Rats/022.jpg
I do. James have you seen albino retic pythons they are white and yellow, that yellow is pigment. They have no melanin. That black pigment. So they have no dark colours.
adamanteus
07-30-2008, 04:46 PM
Here's another quote from a Doctor of Genetics... it's a bit vague on the albinism topic, but she explains the yellow leucism quite clearly, I think.
Message:
The following is a definition of albinism as it relates to people, but the same will hold true for animals. I found this information at http://www.albinism.org/publications/what-is-albinism.html (http://www.albinism.org/publications/what-is-albinism.html) Recent research has used analysis of DNA, the chemical which encodes genetic information, to arrive at a more firm classification system for albinism. Type 1 albinism (also called tyrosinase-related albinism) is the type involving almost no pigmentation. Type 1 albinism results from a genetic defect in an enzyme called tyrosinase. This enzyme helps the body to change the amino acid tyrosine into pigment. (An amino acid is a "building block" of protein, and comes from protein in the diet.) Type 2, a type with slight pigmentation, results from a defect in a different gene called the "P" gene. Researchers have identified several other genes that cause forms of albinism. In one form of albinism, the Hermansky-Pudlak syndrome, there can be problems with bleeding, and with lung and bowel disease as well. Hermansky-Pudlak syndrome is a less common form of albinism, but should be suspected if a child with albinism shows unusual bruising or bleeding. I could not find the word leucistic anywhere. I'm assuming you are talking about luteal which is a yellow or orange yellow color. Luciditas refers to brightness or shining. Lutein is a yellow pigment of the corpus luteum (part of the female reproductive organs). According to Mader's Reptile Medicine and Surgery, published by BW Saunders in 1996, animals with albinism involves red, yellow or white and produces varying color patterns. I hope this helps to answer your question.
adamanteus
07-30-2008, 04:48 PM
I do. James have you seen albino retic pythons they are white and yellow, that yellow is pigment. They have no melanin. That black pigment. So they have no dark colours.
Who said they are albino? The seller? Do these 'handles' just get used for convenience, or are they scientifically accurate?
aSnakeLovinBabe
07-30-2008, 04:49 PM
possibly you missed it haha. James, what is your definition of the above pictured snake?
adamanteus
07-30-2008, 04:50 PM
Shannon, to me the snake in your pic is an albino... although I dare say it's a 'snow' or something.
I'm not trying to say anyone is wrong, I'm simply asking 'Who says?'
To simplify it... who says an animal can be an albino if it has pigment? And how can you have a 'dark albino'?
James. Can I point out one thing. You keep quoteing mamal genetics bird genetics and so on. We are talking about reptile genetics and more to the point snake genetics. You keep quoteing apples and were talking oranges. And pleasr whoever reads this don't think I am an expert on snakes. No far from it . I am however a professional Chameleon breeder and before that I had one of the largest dart frog collections in the North east. I do however now when I am talking to someone that knows what there talking about in a specific field and I would listen very carefully to what Shannon has to say!
adamanteus
07-30-2008, 04:54 PM
Pigment is pigment is pigment, is it not? I always listen to Shannon, but I still require explanation. I won't believe whatever I'm told without some form of source or basis for that information.
I'm impressed that you're a chameleon breeder, Bill. For many years I was a professional herpetologist, so I know a bit about snakes. But I have always found genetics (and 'labelling') confusing.
adamanteus
07-30-2008, 04:58 PM
Pigment is pigment is pigment, is it not? I always listen to Shannon, but I still require explanation. I won't believe whatever I'm told without some form of source or basis for that information.
I don't know the answer, that's why I'm asking the question. But the answer 'Because Shannon says so' just doesn't cut it for me. (No offense Shannon:)).
Lori P
07-30-2008, 04:58 PM
Hi Bill, and welcome!! I think your snake is just lovely, no matter what he/she ends up being called. :-) I hope you enjoy it here!
Well I have to go for now. It was nice chating with you all. I will try to take some more pictures in the sun light. Maybe we can get a better idea with the new pictures. Thanks so much for all of your opinions. I didn't mean to cause such a fuss. I hope you all have a great night. Latter!
adamanteus
07-30-2008, 05:03 PM
Fuss is great, Bill. Thanks for the topic! Catch you later.:)
Hi Bill, and welcome!! I think your snake is just lovely, no matter what he/she ends up being called. :-) I hope you enjoy it here!
Thank you,Lori. For your compliments and your gracious welcome!
Fuss is great, Bill. Thanks for the topic! Catch you later.:)
Thanks James, It was nice to meet you and I do hope to catch you latter. Have a great one!
Garter_Gertie
07-30-2008, 05:26 PM
Shannon, I don't know if you copied all that - doesn't sound like it; sounds like your syntax - or if it came outta your head because you know it.
Nonetheless, my respect for you (and continued enjoyment of your posts) has shot up even more than what it was.
I didn't understand a dang thing you said, but I enjoyed reading and trying to learn.
Woman, you are truly something.
Bill is correct!
Leucistic snakes are the ones that are white. In mammals, many albino one's are white simply because most mammals are one solid color. There are both leucistic AND albino animals, both of whom look similar because mammals are already one solid color so naturally their albino form is one solid light white colors. The difference can usually be seen in the eyes, an albino creature should have reddish or noticeably light or see-through eyes. Leucistic animals almost always have blue or black eyes, but either way there is some blackness to the eye. Many mammals who are referred to as albino are technically leucistic.
Tyrosinase negative albinos are the same thing as Amelanistic, both terms mean that the snake lacks the pigment melanin (or technically, the tyrosinase that helps make it). So, an amelanistic or albino snake would have varying degrees of pigmentation (depending on the strain), he should have all of his pigments, excluding the melanin.
Hypo melanistic and tyrosinase positive albino are very similar. Both animals have and roduce melanin, in hypo's, it is reduced areas of melanin coverage, whereas in T positive albino, you won't see any actually black pigmentation or patches of darker skin, there is only a trace amount of melanin in their skin, and their eyes are usually dark.
Garter_Gertie
07-30-2008, 05:29 PM
I'd call them 'wine,' vs. caramel. Such a rich red w/o really being red. I don't know. Know what I mean? Caramel's more brownie?
Well... Very few albinos lack all their pigment...
Maybe there is a better genetic term for these "Caramel Albinos" but that's what Scott calls them. *shrug*
And his snake has red eyes.
Garter_Gertie
07-30-2008, 05:35 PM
Thass what I've always thought. And the girl I went to grade school with had not one speck of color anywhere on here and her eyes were red. Not to fuel the fire, but an albino is and albino and I've never believed you could confuse them with anything else. I also agree with James that a "dark albino," is an oxymoron.
Okay, but who says so? It's no secret that I'm not any kind of expert on genetics, but I really want to know this. Every single scientific definition I can find tells me that albinos are white, lacking all pigmentation.... Like the three I already posted (including the Oxford dictionary) and this one....
Feathers (and scales in snakes for instance) can have multiple concentrations of multiple pigments. When one of these pigments, say black for ease of understanding, is missing, the color appears washed out -- that is, it is left without the darkness created by the black pigment, in addition to say, red and yellow (those are the three common pigments in nature). This is the generally accepted use of leucism -- some pigment missing, but some pigments left. .
[B]When all pigments are missing (which makes the dead cell outgrowths like feathers, nails, hair, scales, etc., appear white; and the living cell structures, like skin and eyes appear pink to red because of blood), this is albinism. So albinos look, as most people would recognize it, white.
Who says an animal with pigment is an albino?
Garter_Gertie
07-30-2008, 05:39 PM
Well. Nothing like getting to the party late... Still, I'm mighty interested. I'm so confused on this issue. I hope it goes on more and we can get this figures out. VERY FASCINATING!
adamanteus
07-30-2008, 05:43 PM
I was critisized earlier for posting quotes from scientific papers... I did this because I thought they would carry more weight than just saying 'I think'.
My feeling is that some breeders use inappropriate terms to make their produce more attractive, and these terms stick. There must me a thousand colour variations on the Easern Garter..... do they all need a 'morph' name?
Garter_Gertie
07-30-2008, 05:50 PM
But James, I can maybe understand their hesitation... You didn't quote the paper - like who wrote it, when, where from (like a university or something). You just quoted something. Can you give what you quoted?
And I agree 100% on "some breeders use inappropriate terms to make their produce more attractive..." We've one poster here that has admitted that - can't remember the name of who it was.
Yeah, I think maybe the morphs all need a name. Like P & J are easterns, and Winnie's an eastern and they don't even look related. But then I'm a label person and also the labels help me understand differences and alikenesses. (shrugs shoulders) Not a good argument, just me! :D
aSnakeLovinBabe
07-30-2008, 06:55 PM
I was critisized earlier for posting quotes from scientific papers... I did this because I thought they would carry more weight than just saying 'I think'.
My feeling is that some breeders use inappropriate terms to make their produce more attractive, and these terms stick. There must me a thousand colour variations on the Easern Garter..... do they all need a 'morph' name?
I hope you didnt mean me! I never criticized you, James :):o
Just debating!
aSnakeLovinBabe
07-30-2008, 06:58 PM
Shannon, to me the snake in your pic is an albino... although I dare say it's a 'snow' or something.
He's not a snow. Just an albino and leucistic snake in one.
Snow's are a combination of amel and albino
Honestly, albino snakes are probably my least favorite on the scale.
anji1971
07-30-2008, 07:32 PM
Whoa, this thread really took off!!:eek:
Hello, Bill, and welcome!:)
That is a beautiful snake, whatever the 'label' turns out to be!
Aundrea
07-30-2008, 10:21 PM
WOW Yeah this thread sure did take off. But anywho welcome to the board and your snake is a beauty!!! :D
zooplan
07-30-2008, 10:45 PM
Humour me, Guys...... Albinos lack pigment, don't they?
1. A person or animal lacking normal pigmentation, with the result being that the skin and hair are abnormally white or milky and the eyes have a pink or blue iris and a deep-red pupil.
al·bi·no / alˈbīnō/ • n. (pl. -nos) a person or animal having a congenital absence of pigment in the skin and hair (which are white) and the eyes (which are typically pink). ∎ inf. an abnormally white animal or plant: an albino tiger. DERIVATIVES: al·bi·nism / ˈalbəˌnizəm/ n.
Albino is lacking of pigment on mamals!
Reptiles are amelanistic, anerythristic on axanthistic.
But happy welcome, Bill.
You have a beautyfull snake
GartersRock
07-31-2008, 12:15 AM
From what I have learned over he years and from what I understand about genetics... I am gonna have to agree with Shannon here!! I am certainly not an expert. But from as well as I understand it. That is what I would have said. Thanks Shannon! ;)
Now the big question is... Bill, does your snake have red eyes? They appear to be in the pic.
Fun discussion by the way James!
Stefan-A
07-31-2008, 12:31 AM
I agree with Udo. And in part with James and Shannon, I think. If I understood them correctly.
In my opinion, even if albinism is usually characterized by amelanism and hypomelanism (most notably in mammals and birds), it's a gross oversimplification to call an amelanistic or hypomelanistic animal an albino. As bad as calling a hypo-/anerythristic or hypo-/axanthic animal that.
adamanteus
07-31-2008, 01:43 AM
Fun discussion by the way James!
Yeah, I really enjoyed it! I'm no wiser, but it was fun.:D
zooplan
07-31-2008, 03:27 AM
There is a lot of inimitable beatyfull specimens, like Bill´s, even in the type of T.s.sirtalis.
To call them a morph there should be an occasion for planed breeding.
This will be really hard for those phenotypes that are based on multiple allels.
I know thats there were a lot of spectacular specimens in Scotts breeding stock that are not bred any more.
Garter_Gertie
07-31-2008, 08:26 AM
So, because of what Udo said, "Albino is lacking of pigment on mamals!
Reptiles are amelanistic, anerythristic on axanthistic," there is no such thing as an albino snake and we should be calling that an amelanistic snake?
Do I understand that correctly?
infernalis
07-31-2008, 08:55 AM
Gertie, all those terms each have a different definition.
Oddly, a pure "albino" is called a snow. (Lacking any and all pigmentation.)
amelanistic = Lacking black
anerythristic = Lacking color, but black is present
axanthistic = Unknown word
Melanistic = all solid black
and variations on the above...
http://www.danceswithreptiles.com/babs/snow.jpghttp://www.danceswithreptiles.com/babs/navidad.jpg
Stefan-A
07-31-2008, 09:02 AM
axanthistic = Unknown word
Axanthic. Lack of yellow.
amelanistic = Lacking black, but red and yellow is present.
anerythristic = Lacking red, but black and yellow is present
axanthic = Lacking yellow, but black and red is present.
Combine all three traits and you get one without black, red and yellow. At least in theory.
infernalis
07-31-2008, 09:03 AM
Thank you Stefan
zooplan
07-31-2008, 09:04 AM
a: amelanistic = Lacking black
b: anerythristic = Lacking red
c: axanthistic = lacking yellow
d: melanistic = (all solid black) black covers other colors
e: erythristic= red covers other colors
snow= combination of a and b
blizzard= combination of a, b and c (real albino)
oh, I´m to slow again ;-)
Stefan-A
07-31-2008, 09:08 AM
blizzard= combination of a, b and c (real albino)
That would be my interpretation as well.
infernalis
07-31-2008, 09:11 AM
b: anerythristic = Lacking red
So why would a Anery red sided garter be desirable??
Or an Anery infernalis?
Yet for some reason folks are willing to pay good money for a red sided garter that has no red on it?:confused:
I understand, unusual and different appeal to many, including me.... But red is a fine colour, and why anyone would want it gone escapes me.
Oh, and thanks Udo, my comprehension of these terms just leaped forward:D
Stefan-A
07-31-2008, 09:13 AM
So why would a Anery red sided garter be desirable??
Or an Anery infernalis?
Yet for some reason folks are willing to pay good money for a red sided garter that has no red on it?:confused:
I understand, unusual and different appeal to many, including me.... But red is a fine colour, and why anyone would want it gone escapes me.
Oh, and thanks Udo, my comprehension of these terms just leaped forward:D
Well, you've answered your own question.
infernalis
07-31-2008, 10:21 AM
Well, you've answered your own question.
I guess not everyone likes red as much as me:eek:
An amelanistic red sided flame would be so pretty..(if such a thing were to exist anywhere but in my imagionation)
Stefan-A
07-31-2008, 10:28 AM
I guess not everyone likes red as much as me:eek:
An amelanistic red sided flame would be so pretty..(if such a thing were to exist anywhere but in my imagionation)
Personally, I think that most colour morphs look like crap compared to the "original". Especially the whitish ones
adamanteus
07-31-2008, 10:57 AM
blizzard= combination of a, b and c (real albino)
So we're agreed? Albinos are white. :rolleyes:
Zephyr
07-31-2008, 11:03 AM
I prefer au naturale colors. :P
infernalis
07-31-2008, 11:21 AM
If you breed that pair I sent you Kyle, they will produce some unnatural offspring.
zooplan
07-31-2008, 12:17 PM
Oh, and thanks Udo, my comprehension of these terms just leaped forward:D
This is from the darkness of my foretime, when I had to study a lot of genetics and calculus of probability:p
The anerthistic red sided is a part of the way to snow or blizzard red siders, you could never now if that will be different to a snow eastern.;)
Zephyr
07-31-2008, 12:25 PM
If you breed that pair I sent you Kyle, they will produce some unnatural offspring.Anerythristics and axanthic individuals occur uncommonly in the wild; but they're still there. Unlike some of the stuff Scott Felzer has.
Fun to look at, but really not my taste in garters. :P
ssssnakeluvr
07-31-2008, 12:35 PM
So we're agreed? Albinos are white. :rolleyes:
not necessarily.....
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//504/medium/prego_albino.jpg
jitami
07-31-2008, 12:38 PM
There ya go showin' off again :) Very pretty Don... so, what exactly is the proper term for that individual?
ssssnakeluvr
07-31-2008, 12:40 PM
me??? showing off???? just adding 2 cents.... that's a Nebraska albino....she came from Nebraska...has more straw coloring than the other plains albino genes..... if I was gonna show off, I would have added my "christmas" albino plains....an Iowa albino with orange....:rolleyes:
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//504/medium/daddy_albino.jpg
jitami
07-31-2008, 12:44 PM
I love the Nebraska girl, Don... she'd go so well with my decor <gg> Really, good stuff. Pictures make the lesson all the more interesting!
That sure is a nice looking snake Don.
Yes they are Albinos. A very dark phase.
There are many phases of Albinos in Garters. You can check out these sites:
Scott Felzer's Garter Snakes, specializing in aberrant garters (http://www.albinogartersnake.com/)
Alan's Garter Snakes - My Collection (http://www.gartersnake.co.uk/mycollection.htm#Thamnophis%20cyrtopsis%20ocellatu s%20-%20eastern%20black%20necked%20garter%20snake)
I personally believe yours to be a "Caramel Albino Eastern".
What do you plan to do with him? ;)
Thanks for the links. After takeing another good look at this snake in the sun light I can see that the eye color is red and I now believe this is a albino. Thanks for the all the help! As to what I will do with him or her, I am trying to capture some other snakes from this population and see if I can't get it to breed true.
Whoa, this thread really took off!!:eek:
Hello, Bill, and welcome!:)
That is a beautiful snake, whatever the 'label' turns out to be!
Thank you for your gracious welcome. I'm sorry it came so late!
adamanteus
07-31-2008, 02:04 PM
Yes they are Albinos. A very dark phase.
There are many phases of Albinos in Garters. You can check out these sites:
Scott Felzer's Garter Snakes, specializing in aberrant garters (http://www.albinogartersnake.com/)
Alan's Garter Snakes - My Collection (http://www.gartersnake.co.uk/mycollection.htm#Thamnophis%20cyrtopsis%20ocellatu s%20-%20eastern%20black%20necked%20garter%20snake)
I wonder if they make an all black albino, I could cross it with my melanistic and create a completely invisible snake!:rolleyes:
GartersRock
07-31-2008, 02:05 PM
So... We have come to the conclusion that in the snake world... We are using incorrect terms? So this became a discussion not over what type of snake Bill has but genetic terms.
So I agree with:
a: amelanistic = Lacking black
b: anerythristic = Lacking red
c: axanthistic = lacking yellow
d: melanistic = (all solid black) black covers other colors
e: erythristic= red covers other colors
snow= combination of a and b
blizzard= combination of a, b and c (real albino)
Udo's list!
So where would Leucistic fall in? Blizzard?
And inbetween these we would have:
Hypomelanistic = Decreased melanin (black)
Hypermelanistic = Increased melanin
Am I correct? Trying to figure this out. lol!!
So... Assuming that I was calling Bill's snake an albino, meaning amelanistic (which, unforutunatly in the snake world we call this "albino"). Would we agree that his snake is amelanistic? He has red eyes...
It irks me to realize that we, the snake world as a whole have been using incorrect terms this whole time...
Blah!
I LOVE discussions on genetics!! So fun!
GartersRock
07-31-2008, 02:07 PM
Hey James! Don't blame me for being confused because the so called "professionals" in the snake world mixed it all up! It's not my fault. :p I think I get it now. I meant amelanistic. Happy? :D
GartersRock
07-31-2008, 02:09 PM
Oooo! So this would mean that even the ALBINO BALL PYTHON. Really 'aint no albino at all! But amelanistic! Wow.
adamanteus
07-31-2008, 02:22 PM
Hey James! Don't blame me for being confused because the so called "professionals" in the snake world mixed it all up! It's not my fault. :p I think I get it now. I meant amelanistic. Happy? :D
I guess there two 'snake worlds'... the multi-coloured candy-cane, strawberry shortcake world of the 'fancy' snake breeders, and the dusty, fusty, dry, factual world of pure science.
Where do we and Thamnophis.com fit in? Somewhere between the two, I suppose.
GartersRock
07-31-2008, 02:26 PM
I like somwhere in between as well! And thanks to this forum, I can trash all the old thinking. ;) Whoo!
ssssnakeluvr
07-31-2008, 02:36 PM
I wonder if they make an all black albino, I could cross it with my melanistic and create a completely invisible snake!:rolleyes:
save me a pair!!!!! (if you can find them...lol!) :eek:
Zephyr
07-31-2008, 02:36 PM
The eyes on that little fella are red. o.o
GartersRock
07-31-2008, 02:37 PM
Yes. That is what I have been trying to say this whole time. lol! Nobody was responding to that. *shrugs* That means the snake has to be amelanistic. Not just a light colored eastern.
Yes. That is what I have been trying to say this whole time. lol! Nobody was responding to that. *shrugs* That means the snake has to be amelanistic. Not just a light colored eastern.Thank you my sharp eyed friends. I have some new pics taken today in better light and the eyes are red. In Shannons defence she did say she had a hard time telling if the eyes were red or not by the pics I had and it was her idea to take some new pics in the sun light. I will try to get them on here. James was nice enough to leave me some directions for that. Thanks for all of your feedback on the subject! It has really been a big help!
Bill
I have some new photos in the gallery if anyone wants to open this back up?
The eyes appear to be red, However, The band around the eye is a bronze color.
adamanteus
07-31-2008, 04:03 PM
Can you post the new photos, Bill?
Hey james, How are you? I will give it a shot. They are in the gallery.
adamanteus
07-31-2008, 04:09 PM
Would you like me to post them for you, Bill?
crzy_kevo
07-31-2008, 04:11 PM
wow bill that is a really pretty snake
wow bill that is a really pretty snakeThanks Kevin!
zooplan
07-31-2008, 04:13 PM
The eyes appear to be red, However, The band around the eye is a bronze color.
so she seems to be hypomelanistic for sure,
she still has color in her iris and dark markings in her pattern
Yes please, James I'm just not having any luck at this
so she seems to be hypomelanistic for sure,
she still has color in her iris and dark markings in her pattern
There is a few dark spots in her pattern.
adamanteus
07-31-2008, 04:18 PM
Bills' new photos....
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/possible_albino_eastern_garter_snake_046.jpg
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/2008-07-31_3.JPG
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/2008-07-31_10.JPG
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/2008-07-31_7.JPG
adamanteus
07-31-2008, 04:21 PM
Beautiful snake, Bill... whatever 'handle' you decide on. I wish it were mine.:)
Thats why I thought it was a hypo at first but then I saw some photos of some other snakes that led me to believe it was an albino. There is one other problem. it has some darker markings in the checkered pattern. I will try to get some more photos into the gallery.
Ah James your back I was getting worried. Thank you for posting these for me!
See what I mean about the the eyes. The iris is a bronze color and the pupil is pink or red.
snakeman
07-31-2008, 04:43 PM
Albino, amelanistic same thing in the snake world
adamanteus
07-31-2008, 04:47 PM
Albino, amelanistic same thing in the snake world
Define 'snake world'..... both terms cannot be correct, surely?
zooplan
07-31-2008, 05:00 PM
I´ve seen hypomelanistic specimens
that were called albino too
serious breeders should call thier breed as correct as possible
calling something albino is just a kind of merchandising to me
This shouldn´t mean that I´m not doing the same sometimes;)
GartersRock
07-31-2008, 05:03 PM
Hmmm.... I still think amelanistic...
Dark markings? Like paradox spots??
zooplan
07-31-2008, 05:09 PM
On the photos you can see, that the pattern is quite normal even lighter
(less black pigments)
adamanteus
07-31-2008, 05:11 PM
In a nutshell, Udo... I also think the term 'albino' is used as a kind of merchandising.
Albinism (to me) is a recognised condition where an animal lacks ALL pigment. I still cannot find any scientific treatise to contradict this. All I can find is the 'naming' system introduced by snake breeders.
I don't pretend to know, so I am open to further education on this.... Who says that a colourful snake can be correctly named 'albino'?
I've said it before and I'll say it again... I know very little about genetics, but I know what I've read and what I've learned.... Albinos lack ALL pigmentation, don't they? Who decided that snakes are outside these rules?
Garter_Gertie
07-31-2008, 05:38 PM
In a nutshell, Udo... I also think the term 'albino' is used as a kind of merchandising.
Albinism (to me) is a recognised condition where an animal lacks ALL pigment. I still cannot find any scientific treatise to contradict this. All I can find is the 'naming' system introduced by snake breeders.
I don't pretend to know, so I am open to further education on this.... Who says that a colourful snake can be correctly named 'albino'?
I've said it before and I'll say it again... I know very little about genetics, but I know what I've read and what I've learned.... Albinos lack ALL pigmentation, don't they? Who decided that snakes are outside these rules?
Standing right behind James and going, "Yep, yep... Yep. Yep!"
GartersRock
07-31-2008, 05:45 PM
I am still with James and converting over to using correct terms.
I am still baffled that the common "Albino" Ball Python and the "Albino" corn snake, technically, really aren't albino at all! They must have slapped the name on long ago because it sounded better the amelanistic...
Very, very interesting.
infernalis
07-31-2008, 05:50 PM
The corn snake dealers:D
Cy was sold as albino, does he look albino?
http://www.danceswithreptiles.com/cy/cy2.jpg
Snowflake is called a Snow, but to me a true albino..
http://www.danceswithreptiles.com/babs/snow.jpg
the "Christmas Albino" radix is all white, with a yellow stripe and some light spotting, very pretty, but there is color??? so me thinks that "Christmas Albino" was invented to help market the color.
http://www.danceswithreptiles.com/radix/navidad.jpg
GartersRock
07-31-2008, 06:01 PM
Corn snake dealers.... *grumbles*
infernalis
07-31-2008, 06:10 PM
I think if I am correct here, that due to sheer abundance, Corn snakes were the first to get bred all different ways to get custom colours.
So most of the misused terminology would very likely have originated with the corn snake dealers and breeders.
They don't seem to care how screwed up the genetics become, as long as pretty snakes that sell come out.
Now we have pueblacorns, king corns, corndurans, unicorns????:D
GartersRock
07-31-2008, 06:20 PM
Just lovely... The work of the corn snake people... And I would agree that it was most likely them.
aSnakeLovinBabe
07-31-2008, 06:20 PM
With those new pictures, I am definately going with Amel.
Like the darker ones posted earlier in this thread
GartersRock
07-31-2008, 06:26 PM
Yeah! I knew it! lol! ;)
Garter_Gertie
07-31-2008, 06:38 PM
Ishy Corn snakes.
YEAH! Garters. (shudders at corn snakes)
GartersRock
07-31-2008, 06:39 PM
I traded my only corn snake for a pair of redstripe ribbons. YAY!
Garter_Gertie
07-31-2008, 06:44 PM
I traded my only corn snake for a pair of redstripe ribbons. YAY!
Yur momma didn' raise no dummies.
GartersRock
07-31-2008, 06:47 PM
Rofl!! Funny!!
With those new pictures, I am definately going with Amel.
Like the darker ones posted earlier in this thread
Hey Shannon, How are you? I just had a friend over who breeds snakes full time. He says it's a caramel. It's hard to tell from a picture what it is. Especially one of mine. That was great advise though, taking it outside and taking pictures in the full sun. The colors really came out then. Thanks for all the advise.
Bill
Garter_Gertie
07-31-2008, 07:00 PM
Otay. I'll bite. So what's a caramel based on albino, not albino, snow and all those other words I can't remember?
This is more confusing than anything. But I'm liking the edjumacashun!
GartersRock
07-31-2008, 07:11 PM
"Caramel Albino" is a name dubbed a certain shade of Amelanistic (lacking melanin, black).
The strain of colors of the original snakes the amelanistics came from were a certain shade so that when the black was removed the yellows and reds etc left where a "caramel" color.
So someone gave this strain of amelanistic the saleable name "Caramel Albino".
Scott uses the name for some of his amelanistic easterns.
infernalis
07-31-2008, 07:12 PM
I traded my only corn snake for a pair of redstripe ribbons. YAY!
I couldn't if I wanted to. whenever I strike a bond with an animal, it lives out the rest of it's days, however long or short right here.
CY was my first morph of any kind, and Dorothy bought him for me as a Christmas present.
Went to the pet store for snake bedding, and came home with a bonus snake. (more than once... Prolly best I order aspen on line)
Then I "Graduated" to Garter morphs. Odd, some people go the other way:eek:
Cy is family now, no matter how many red stripe anythings someone shook in my face.
GartersRock
07-31-2008, 07:14 PM
I totally understand. ;)
My brazilian rainbow boa, Pryzm. Will never go ANYWHERE. No matter how many garters she would buy me!
You know Gertie, I suppose I could try to bs my through that question with what I have picked up working in the pet trade for some years now but honestly I can tell you what a caramel is suppose to like but I don't know how it all breaks down and yes a lot of this lingo did come from the pet trade. The fact is snakes are one of the few reptiles were you can develope all these different aberrations because they tolerate inbreeding so well. As was said here a few posts ago you can even breed two different sub species together. Thats why there are terms that don't quite fit. snake breeding genetics are really on a new level.
snakeman
07-31-2008, 07:40 PM
after reading a ton of stuff on the internet I have come to the conclusion that there are a lot of confused people around.I saw albino tigers with black stripes.I saw albino alligators with black eyes.It's amelanistic.So who wants a amelanistic flame next year?
GartersRock
07-31-2008, 07:43 PM
Oh! Oh!! Oh! MEE!!! :D
Oh and ny the way... The conclusions I have come to in this little thread have literally changed my life!! :D Sweet!
Snakeman that was good.LOL!
aSnakeLovinBabe
07-31-2008, 07:49 PM
haha you are welcome.
Now I REALLY want that snake!!! when you get babies, please please paallleaaasseeeee reserve me a pair! :o
You know folks I seem to have opened up a can of worms here and I hope some good came out of it. I do have one more thing to say. We are really missing the boat here if the only concern we have is the colors we can produce. We need to focus on a strong gene pool. Large ,strong, hearty animals should be as much a concern as the color if not more. Cross breeds are a short cut. preserving the uniqueness of the different locals and breeding them to be brighter,larger and stronger should be our main concern. "And thats all I have to say about that."
haha you are welcome.
Now I REALLY want that snake!!! when you get babies, please please paallleaaasseeeee reserve me a pair! :o You got it! I will put you first on the list!
GartersRock
07-31-2008, 08:11 PM
Great post Bill!
And I think you will find that that is a very popular and strongly felt position that is taken by most people here. ;)
Heck. Most of us here love our normals the most!
GartersRock
07-31-2008, 08:12 PM
I wouldn't mind on the list as well. ;)
You got it! I will put you first on the list!It's great to have some new blood.
Zephyr
07-31-2008, 08:15 PM
You know folks I seem to have opened up a can of worms here and I hope some good came out of it. I do have one more thing to say. We are really missing the boat here if the only concern we have is the colors we can produce. We need to focus on a strong gene pool. Large ,strong, hearty animals should be as much a concern as the color if not more. Cross breeds are a short cut. preserving the uniqueness of the different locals and breeding them to be brighter,larger and stronger should be our main concern. "And thats all I have to say about that."Amen brotha! :D
I wouldn't mind on the list as well. ;)It would be my pleasure but I don't want to start jumping the gun here. I still need to try to catch some of those hets. Clean them all up. You know panacure, baytril and so on. So inshort there is many a slip between the cup and the lip. Lets all keep our fingers crossed!
jitami
07-31-2008, 08:19 PM
Heck. Most of us here love our normals the most!
I think that's part of the reason we had such a hard time labeling your snake Bill... most of us really love normals and aren't typically into the many morphs that are starting to surface. If I had my way I would only have normal T. e. elegans, but state regs make it very prohibitive. The lighter silvers, caramels(new label for me!), and blues are very attractive and will make nice additions someday, tho :D
Amen brotha! :DThanks Brotha
infernalis
07-31-2008, 08:20 PM
Hallelujah to that, always felt that way, it even says so on my web site.
now try searching the world over for unrelated bloodlines, it's not easy, but it can be done.
right now there are many people buying pairs from the same brood, not my cup of tea;)
GartersRock
07-31-2008, 08:23 PM
It would be my pleasure but I don't want to start jumping the gun here. I still need to try to catch some of those hets. Clean them all up. You know panacure, baytril and so on. So inshort there is many a slip between the cup and the lip. Lets all keep our fingers crossed!
Oh sure! It gives me time to set aside some cash. :p
[quote=jitami;70795]I think that's part of the reason we had such a hard time labeling your snake Bill... most of us really love normals and aren't typically into the many morphs that are starting to surface. If I had my way I would only have normal T. e. elegans, but state regs make it very prohibitive. The lighter silvers, caramels(new label for me!), and blues are very attractive and will make nice additions someday, tho :D[/quote As long as people do the right thing and don't take short cuts for the sake of makeing a few quick bucks.
Hallelujah to that, always felt that way, it even says so on my web site.
now try searching the world over for unrelated bloodlines, it's not easy, but it can be done.
right now there are many people buying pairs from the same brood, not my cup of tea;)
Thats not mine either. I'm glad I spoke up. I'm begining to feel right at home!
jitami
07-31-2008, 08:26 PM
As long as people do the right thing and don't take short cuts for the sake of makeing a few quick bucks.
Exactly... I think just about everyone here feels the same. There's not much money in garters(unless you do it on a very large scale!) so most don't keep them for the money ;)
GartersRock
07-31-2008, 08:29 PM
Whenever I buy pairs from the same brood I intend to mix them up. ;)
For my same brood flame pair, I plan to be purchasing another flame, some erythristics and normals to mix it up.
To me, not only is it healthy and will keep strong lines, but it's fun!
I think that's part of the reason we had such a hard time labeling your snake Bill... most of us really love normals and aren't typically into the many morphs that are starting to surface. If I had my way I would only have normal T. e. elegans, but state regs make it very prohibitive. The lighter silvers, caramels(new label for me!), and blues are very attractive and will make nice additions someday, tho :DThats true. I don't mean to put anyone down for raising albinos or oddities. And it can be done safely if it's done right but too many people take short cuts by in breeding to the extreme starting with 2 snakes from the same clutch and then in breeding what they get from that pair and on and on until the line is burnt out and you see this much more often with the oddities because they are usually worth more money to start with.
Oh yeh, and while I'm thinking about it don't ever wait to long for a responce from me. I have 2 typing speeds,slow and ohh my God!!!
you know, coming up with different colors and patterns is fun. But you can really intensify the colors of different locals by good selective breeding also size and longevity can all be improved on. It takes time and a lot of work but in the end does pay off. I think. You should see my panther chameleons. They are twice the size that every one else is producing and strong to. And they grow like bamboo! Yeh it's alot of work and I don't make much because of the panes I take and the amounts of food these bruisers eat but word will get out and then the money will come. I could cross breed morphs for color but that s not a road I want to travel.
GartersRock
07-31-2008, 08:59 PM
I am sure we would love to see your chameleons in the "other pets" thread! ;)
I want to thank you for the work you do! We need more people like you in this "business"!
I am sure we would love to see your chameleons in the "other pets" thread! ;)
I want to thank you for the work you do! We need more people like you in this "business"!
Thank you Amanda, I really appreciate that. I will post a few when I get the chance but I don't want to take away from the focus on garters here. I think thats only fair.
GartersRock
07-31-2008, 11:02 PM
We have some off topic threads they would fit right into when you get the chance. ;)
Look forward to them!
Lori P
08-01-2008, 05:16 AM
Bill, yes, want to see the chameleons!! Now!! Now!! Hurry!!! TYPE FASTER FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!! LOL :-)
Garter_Gertie
08-01-2008, 05:42 AM
Lori, you are sssssssssssoooooooooooo bad! LOL!
I understood the ethics portion of this thread for more than I did the colors - which was not at all. I guess I'm not gonna be an geneticist when I grow up. But I liked it. I hope we have more conversations like this.
Stefan-A
08-01-2008, 05:47 AM
I understood the ethics portion of this thread for more than I did the colors - which was not at all. I guess I'm not gonna be an geneticist when I grow up.
Nobody's born with an understanding of genetics. :D
Garter_Gertie
08-01-2008, 05:51 AM
Oh. Stefan. Boo-Hiss!!!!
May I quote you? That has got to be THE BEST line I've ever read! TOO FUNNY!
Stefan-A
08-01-2008, 05:53 AM
Only if you quote the sentences I was replying to.
Garter_Gertie
08-01-2008, 05:57 AM
Only if you quote the sentences I was replying to.
Really? Then there's no humor in it - to me. But, okay.
Stefan-A
08-01-2008, 06:19 AM
Really? Then there's no humor in it - to me. But, okay.
Come on, it wasn't that funny.
zooplan
08-01-2008, 06:36 AM
now try searching the world over for unrelated bloodlines, it's not easy, but it can be done.
Wayne,
if you breed two unrelated hypomelanistic snakes together you might get phenotypical normal offspring that is heterozygous for both kinds.
Even if the snakes look very similar they could be different strains.
Bill, yes, want to see the chameleons!! Now!! Now!! Hurry!!! TYPE FASTER FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!! LOL :-) h-----i L------o--------r-----i, H--------o----------w a-----r------e y------o--------u? You should limit your coffee intake to 2 cups a day! LOL!
infernalis
08-01-2008, 09:45 AM
Bill you already fit right in:D
Did you notice the sheer number of replies to your one and only thread??
Bill you already fit right in:D
Did you notice the sheer number of replies to your one and only thread??
Thanks Wayne, I really appreciate that! I have to say thanks to you all for making me feel right at home!
I have uploaded a few chameleon photos at the request of several members. I hope there are no complaints. May be we have a new topic, should we post pictures of our other animals or should we try to keep the focus on garters. I for one feel a little funny about posting pictures of reptiles other than garters so if there are any of you that would prefer to keep this strictly snakes I will respect that. Thanks
Garter_Gertie
08-01-2008, 10:59 AM
Bill, it should go under the thread "Our Other Animals."
You're so sweet and nice to ask! Such a pleasant person!
zooplan
08-01-2008, 11:13 AM
... so if there are any of you that would prefer to keep this strictly snakes I will respect that. Thanks
hahaha, thats funny, nice and much too late.
We have "The Natur photogaphy Thread" too.
We are happy about all pleasant photos you like to share.
There is also a thread about pcs of the members, several about meetings...
anji1971
08-01-2008, 07:15 PM
Bill, if you hunt around, you'll find many threads that deal with other topics. We share all kinds of stuff here!
There's Pics of your Other Pets, The Nature Photography Thread, Pics of You, and the mother of all threads, It's Ohh so Quiet, Shh...........
So by all means, join in any one of those threads, and have fun!!:)
Bill, if you hunt around, you'll find many threads that deal with other topics. We share all kinds of stuff here!
There's Pics of your Other Pets, The Nature Photography Thread, Pics of You, and the mother of all threads, It's Ohh so Quiet, Shh...........
So by all means, join in any one of those threads, and have fun!!:)
Thanks,I will
hahaha, thats funny, nice and much too late.
We have "The Natur photogaphy Thread" too.
We are happy about all pleasant photos you like to share.
There is also a thread about pcs of the members, several about meetings...
OK Udo, I just did not want to set anyone off. There is a chameleon forum for cham talk. But thats cool if nobody minds.
Bill, it should go under the thread "Our Other Animals."
You're so sweet and nice to ask! Such a pleasant person!
Thank you Gertie. I appreciate that. But then again,wait til you get to know me.
Snake lover 3-25
08-05-2008, 08:59 AM
wow long thread!!!!
neat snake...... red eyes???? wow confusing but awesome!!!!!!!
sschind
08-05-2008, 08:28 PM
me??? showing off???? just adding 2 cents.... that's a Nebraska albino....she came from Nebraska...has more straw coloring than the other plains albino genes..... if I was gonna show off, I would have added my "christmas" albino plains....an Iowa albino with orange....:rolleyes:
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//504/medium/daddy_albino.jpg
Using the terms as Udo has defined them, and I agree with, then using the term albino to describe this animal would be incorrect and I think that was the basis for James' whole discussion. That animal is not an albino it is an amelanistic. Just because someone bred it and stuck a name on it doesn't mean its the correct name. Also, a bit of confusion arises when we consider terms like Albino, snow and blizzard. The terms Albinism, thus albino, are scientific terms based on specific criteria. The terms snow and blizzard are descriptive terms that while on the surface may seem to be based on scientific criteria just like albino (snow = no black or red, blizzard = no black red or yellow, which are by the way great ways to describe them) they have no scientific basis. They are simply descriptors like "flame" and any number of other terms. The confusion comes in when scientific thought processes of people like James comes in contact with the marketing thought processes of people who want to breed and sell more pretty snakes.
Just think back to when the first amelanistic corn was produced. They guy probably looked at it and thought "what does this remind me of. It has no black, albinos have no black so it must be an albino" Thus the albino corn was born. Later on when this gene was combined with the gene for no yellow (anerythrism) the result was a snake that looked even more albino than the first they guy must have thought " oh crap, this looks even more like an albino than the first but an even more albino corn sounds stupid so what can I think of that is really really white? I know, I'll call it a snow corn." Ok, I think you can see where this is going. Fast forward a few years and we add in the gene for no red and the result is an even whiter snake. Now the guy must be going nuts. He has to be thinking "double crap, how much more white can this thing get. What in the world is whiter than snow? the only thing I can think of is a lot of snow and what is a lot of snow? I know, a blizzard."
With the way genetics are being tested in today's morph crazy world of reptiles I think it is entirely possible, even probable that people are using old terms in new ways that they were either never intended to be used or, more likely, never envisioned to be needed to be used. Maybe we need to come up with new scientific terms to describe what is happening. Maybe the old terms simple don't cut it. They were fine for what they did but in this day and age they are simply not accurate. The problem with that, in my opinion, is that more people are intent on creating new genetic morphs than trying to really describe what is genetically happening, not that they may not know what is happening they are just not out to prove it scientifically. They are happy to keep using old terms to describe new effects and thus confusion abounds. Even with the really really smart people. A prime example of this is a term I see in the ball python hobby a lot. They use the term "visible het" Now to me, a visible het can not exist because by its definition, at least the definition I learned in my genetics classes, an animal that is heterozygous shows no visible markings that it is heterozygous. They claim that a Pastel ball is a visible het because if you breed two of them together you get a "super" form or a super pastel. They say that a pastel is really a het for super pastel and since you can tell a pastel visually then it must be a visual het. I understand what they are saying and it makes sense to me but I contend that they should come up with a new word rather than het. Granted the old definition may be incomplete based on what we now know but adding to the definition of a already accepted term can only lead to confusion.
Sorry this was so long, hopefully I have succeeded in confusing you even more so we can continue interesting discussions such as this.
Zephyr
08-05-2008, 08:34 PM
The only thing I can think of for the whole visual het thing is that the gene that the snake is het for is also tied to a dominant gene that would alter its appearance and hence indicate the presence of the recessive one.
I've had almost no genetics training/education so go ahead and rip that apart if I'm wrong lol.
zooplan
08-05-2008, 11:00 PM
The only thing I can think of for the whole visual het thing is that the gene that the snake is het for is also tied to a dominant gene that would alter its appearance and hence indicate the presence of the recessive one.
I've had almost no genetics training/education so go ahead and rip that apart if I'm wrong lol.
I took me an hour to read sschinds post and than I had to remember how to get on the English Wikipedia pages...
Mendelian inheritance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendelian_inheritance)
this should open alot of eyes
the rest is only drawing bigger charts
and playing with numbers
"a visual het" comes from an intermediary allel
sschind
08-06-2008, 09:12 AM
I took me an hour to read sschinds post and than I had to remember how to get on the English Wikipedia pages...
Mendelian inheritance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendelian_inheritance)
this should open alot of eyes
the rest is only drawing bigger charts
and playing with numbers
"a visual het" comes from an intermediary allel
That's not bad Udo, it took me longer than that to write it. I know I tend to get a little wordy and I can see where that might be a problem for those of you for whom English is not your primary language. I can be bad enough for those of us who speak it and heck, I am the one writing it and even I confuse myself.
Thanks for the link
snakeman
08-06-2008, 01:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssssnakeluvr http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/images/green/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/3793-possible-wc-hypo-post70603.html#post70603)
me??? showing off???? just adding 2 cents.... that's a Nebraska albino....she came from Nebraska...has more straw coloring than the other plains albino genes..... if I was gonna show off, I would have added my "christmas" albino plains....an Iowa albino with orange....:rolleyes:
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data/504/medium/daddy_albino.jpg
Using the terms as Udo has defined them, and I agree with, then using the term albino to describe this animal would be incorrect and I think that was the basis for James' whole discussion. That animal is not an albino it is an amelanistic. Just because someone bred it and stuck a name on it doesn't mean its the correct name. Also, a bit of confusion arises when we consider terms like Albino, snow and blizzard. The terms Albinism, thus albino, are scientific terms based on specific criteria. The terms snow and blizzard are descriptive terms that while on the surface may seem to be based on scientific criteria just like albino (snow = no black or red, blizzard = no black red or yellow, which are by the way great ways to describe them) they have no scientific basis. They are simply descriptors like "flame" and any number of other terms. The confusion comes in when scientific thought processes of people like James comes in contact with the marketing thought processes of people who want to breed and sell more pretty snakes.
Just think back to when the first amelanistic corn was produced. They guy probably looked at it and thought "what does this remind me of. It has no black, albinos have no black so it must be an albino" Thus the albino corn was born. Later on when this gene was combined with the gene for no yellow (anerythrism) the result was a snake that looked even more albino than the first they guy must have thought " oh crap, this looks even more like an albino than the first but an even more albino corn sounds stupid so what can I think of that is really really white? I know, I'll call it a snow corn." Ok, I think you can see where this is going. Fast forward a few years and we add in the gene for no red and the result is an even whiter snake. Now the guy must be going nuts. He has to be thinking "double crap, how much more white can this thing get. What in the world is whiter than snow? the only thing I can think of is a lot of snow and what is a lot of snow? I know, a blizzard."
With the way genetics are being tested in today's morph crazy world of reptiles I think it is entirely possible, even probable that people are using old terms in new ways that they were either never intended to be used or, more likely, never envisioned to be needed to be used. Maybe we need to come up with new scientific terms to describe what is happening. Maybe the old terms simple don't cut it. They were fine for what they did but in this day and age they are simply not accurate. The problem with that, in my opinion, is that more people are intent on creating new genetic morphs than trying to really describe what is genetically happening, not that they may not know what is happening they are just not out to prove it scientifically. They are happy to keep using old terms to describe new effects and thus confusion abounds. Even with the really really smart people. A prime example of this is a term I see in the ball python hobby a lot. They use the term "visible het" Now to me, a visible het can not exist because by its definition, at least the definition I learned in my genetics classes, an animal that is heterozygous shows no visible markings that it is heterozygous. They claim that a Pastel ball is a visible het because if you breed two of them together you get a "super" form or a super pastel. They say that a pastel is really a het for super pastel and since you can tell a pastel visually then it must be a visual het. I understand what they are saying and it makes sense to me but I contend that they should come up with a new word rather than het. Granted the old definition may be incomplete based on what we now know but adding to the definition of a already accepted term can only lead to confusion.
Sorry this was so long, hopefully I have succeeded in confusing you even more so we can continue interesting discussions such as this.
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/images/green/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/images/green/buttons/report.gif (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/report.php?p=71737) Everwhere I look albino is a animal missing black pigment.The term actually started in africa with people that were born with white blotches wrer called albino.Go argue this on the ball python forum they will set you straight. albino christmas plains
sschind
08-06-2008, 05:43 PM
Quote:
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/images/green/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/images/green/buttons/report.gif (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/report.php?p=71737) Everwhere I look albino is a animal missing black pigment.The term actually started in africa with people that were born with white blotches wrer called albino.Go argue this on the ball python forum they will set you straight. albino christmas plains
Yes, albinos do lack black pigment. They also lack red and yellow pigment. I guess if you look hard enough you can find a definition that suits your purpose. That works both ways so I suppose it depends on what definition of albino you are using. It would be a waste of my time to go to the BP forum because they would be using the same definition that you are and it's a definition I do not agree with so what is the point.
Is it really such a big deal if your snake isn't really an albino. It doesn't change what it is, just what it is called.
snakeman
08-06-2008, 06:08 PM
No where did I see a definition that says albino lack black, red, and yellow pigment.They have different terms for animals that lack red and yellow pigment.amelanistic=albino lets stop spreading false information.
snakeman
08-06-2008, 06:28 PM
Actually I found my info in the oxford journal.It was a research paper on black rat snake genetics.Is that a credible source?
EdgyExoticReptiles
08-06-2008, 11:46 PM
my albino hondurans have bands of orange all they loose is their black
No where did I see a definition that says albino lack black, red, and yellow pigment.They have different terms for animals that lack red and yellow pigment.amelanistic=albino lets stop spreading false information.
snakeman
08-07-2008, 04:11 AM
http://docteurjp.free.fr/pinguoins.gif
sschind
08-07-2008, 06:38 AM
I found several sources (just google albino definition) that say it is a condition derived from the lack of pigment. I take that to mean all pigment. Some do say lack of melanin but just as many if not more simply say the lack of pigment. I guess we will have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. You can keep calling your snakes albinos and I will keep calling them amelanistic and in our own minds we will both be right.
Cute penguins by the way. You the one falling in?
snakeman
08-07-2008, 02:10 PM
Wow!good one.
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