Garter snake food - fish questions.

[Lee]

Hi,
I've been busy and haven't posted much, working on setting up a large aquarium for native fish. Anyway, I have a garter I caught 2 years ago, and I've been feeding goldfish/mice, I was wondering if there are any fish that are better for them than goldfish? I like goldfish because I can get a good sized one for a quarter, but I don't want to spend 5 dollars a meal you know.. Suggestions are welcomed.

[suzoo]

Hi Lee,
I swear there was a thread on here about fish that have "Thiaminase" that are bad for our garters, but I can't find it. So let me hope the experts on this site can refer you to it. I do know that goldfish were on that list, so you shouldn't feed them to your snakes. Also I know several people with garters that feed them mice only and their snakes are great. I feed nightcrawlers from Walmart, and you can feed them rosyred minnows that are also available at most Walmarts. I get bullhead minnows from a bait shop, but I don't know if they carry Thiaminase or not. I've been trying to find out. I plan on switching my snakes to mice myself.
Hope I helped a little,
Suzoo

[Cazador]

Hi Lee,
The thread Suzoo was talking about is here (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/welcome-lounge/347-thiaminase-hello-you-all.html). Look down near the bottom. I don't know where you are in the U.S., but if you're on a coast, salmon are a good source. Otherwise, you might consider trout, bass, bluegill, crappie, or perch. You can buy a whole fish or a fillet in the supermarket and cut off small chunks after it's frozen. Then just thaw and serve. Leave the bones within, unless they have particularily sharp edges. It's also a good idea to dip them into vitamin powder (Calcium & Vitamin D) once in a while.

[Lee]

Thanks both, actually I am going to be setting up a 75g+ tank for bluegill/sunfish. So I really don't want to feed them to him, unless I have a ton of babies that end up in the tank from hybridization. I've got like 45 rosy reds right now, but they are so tiny...

BTW, I prefer to feed live fish, I don't want just dead mice, or fish fillet. He is a wild caught snake and really enjoys looking for his prey and catching/eating it.

[zirliz]

My are CB that I'm aware of but they love live fish one had to see a goldfish to prompt eating it's very interesting watching how they kill the fish P.S i love fish but all my pets gotta eat, how often do you guys feed your Garters?

[duh duh duh]

Garter Snake Care - gartersnake.info (http://www.gartersnake.info/care/)

This is the best site I have seen for care and feeding of garters. You'll want to read it because Goldfish are not recommended.

If your snake enjoys hunting a bit for his food, have you tried earthworms? You can get those pretty cheap at bait stores and if you powder them they aren't too bad for your snake. It seems as though pinkies are the best for him.

What about putting the pinkies underneath a log or vary where in the tank you put the food so he has to go looking for it?

[zirliz]

Goes against any snake keeping book I've ever read I'm confused now, I read freezing and thawing destroys the thamine hormone that's why I fed live fish.
My Garters are very fast growers so I disagree with mice speeding up growth rate and fish are easier to handle for me I do think my Red-sided would eat 'em as she's very interested in what I feed my Boa.
Where can you get these vit. supplements they talk about?

[suzoo]

Thank you Duh duh duh! That is a GREAT site!!!

[Cazador]

Hi Michelle,

I just wanted to very clearly dispell the notion that freezing destroys the thiaminase enzyme. It definitely does not. Heating above 180F (82C) for at least 5 minutes destroys this enzyme.

In biology, if you want to preserve a sample, you freeze it. If you want to destroy a sample, you heat it. We often preserve samples at -80C for as much as two years if we can't do the analysis right away. Even after this amount of time, the samples are still in perfect shape for whatever analysis we want to perform (cellular, enzymatic, hormonal...). Freezing is obviously effective at killing living organisms, which is why it's so useful to kill many parasites and pathogens. Yet many bacteria and spores still aren't killed by freezing.

Rick

[Lee]

Hi, thanks for the replies. I've read all about this problem with goldfish, and everything I've read says it can be ok to feed goldfish as long as mice are suplimented sometimes. Also, for the suggestion of putting it under a log... My tank is extremely basic, it has a pot for a hide, and a water bowl. With some substrate. Along with a rock for shedding.. Its only a 20-30 gallon tank. If I could find live pinkies it would be great, but I don't think petco/petsmart sells them. Also, I really hate the idea of worms, I tried it when I first got him and a few times, and he ignores them completely.

[krystalirelan@southslope.]

try your smaller independant pet stores. these will usually sell live pinkies. Or you could raise your own. we did this for a while when we 1st got our corns, it's fun and fairly cheap but mice tend to eat thier young and our dog teanded to eat the mice so we had to stop.:eek:

[KITKAT]

I get my frozen pinkies at the monthly herp show in town.

[Lee]

try your smaller independant pet stores. these will usually sell live pinkies. Or you could raise your own. we did this for a while when we 1st got our corns, it's fun and fairly cheap but mice tend to eat thier young and our dog teanded to eat the mice so we had to stop.:eek:
Found one that has live pinkie rats/mice, in the mall of all places.. Breeding is not an option, no point in breeding something that I don't want near my house for a single snake lol. Last year my snake got some wild mice that had come into our shed. ;)

KitKat, he likes live prey. I can get frozen all day for cheap, but he's a wild snake and I think he enjoys live more.

[drache]

Definitely never feed dead fish from the market without freezing it first. I'm fairly certain what killed one of my baby snakes a few years ago. It was during one of those weather disasters that befall us at times and there were no live feeders to be gotten. So I tried scenting pinkies with some store bought fish and the only snake that went for it, ended up dead within a day.
Not all my snakes like night crawlers, which are the only earthworms we get here, other than red wigglers. My Plains Garter goes nuts over them, but both of my adult red-sided Garters prefer mice. One of them will not take a worm even when hungry.

[mark67123]

Where can you get these vit. supplements they talk about?

Link for vitamin/supplement supplier:
Livefood UK Vetark Products (http://www.livefoods.co.uk/default.php?cPath=28_71)

I currently use Nutrobal directly on food (not all the time though) and a product similar to the BSP drops in the water now and then.
According to my vet, too much vitamin supplementation can be worse than none at all so I keep it pretty low.

[jasuncle1972]

Have you considered bait minnows , in my area (michigan ) they're 1.oo per 12.

[drache]

I get bait minnows 10 for a buck, but they're crappy, sick fish and possibly laden with parasites.

[KITKAT]

That's unfortunate. :mad:

My local bait store has nice lively healthy fish. I freeze and thaw them at least 24 hours before feeding, which will eliminate or greatly reduce parasites.

[drache]

why have I never thought to do that with minnows?
blind spot, I guess.

[stonyloam]

Hi Lee: I tried native fish (bluegills) a long time ago and found that you have to be careful with them because they can be very aggressive toward each other, so you may have to limit the population and keep fish of approximately the same size. You may have to add one or two at a time to see how they get along. You might try a small bullhead or two, the small ones are pretty interesting. There are some pretty cool little darters that live in lakes under rocks in the shallows that might do well, stone cats too, and a school of fathead minnows might give you a food supply for you snake too. You have to be careful with crayfish, they will grab sleeping fish for a late night snack. Anyway good luck.

[Ameivaboy]

platys,mollies, and swordtails would be a much better route to go than your standard dirty goldfish, but as always variety is key

[AliciaG13]

One thing that I think worked with my snake was remembering that "variety is the spice of life." Unfortunately, he didn't seem to like anything with feet (like crickets) but earthworms and rosy-reds were his favorites. He never got very big, though, so I never had the chance to try him on mice at all. He preferred his food live but would eat just about anything floating in the fish dish.

[KITKAT]

One thing that I think worked with my snake was remembering that "variety is the spice of life." Unfortunately, he didn't seem to like anything with feet (like crickets) but earthworms and rosy-reds were his favorites. He never got very big, though, so I never had the chance to try him on mice at all. He preferred his food live but would eat just about anything floating in the fish dish.

I have had pretty good success with a frozen/thawed pinkie that I float in the dish together with 2 - 3 frozen/thawed minnows.

[Lee]

Well he loves to catch the live fish so after looking at different petstores I found one that sells live pinkie rats/mice. The pinkie rats where just smaller than an adult mouse. Got 2 today to test them out see how he takes to em. Great success thus far. Only got it in 30 mins ago. Went straight for it, kind of gets at ya hearing them squeel but I'll get over it sooner or later.
Any thoughts on if this will improve his life ??

[crayguns]

Hello, I've gotten minnows at the bait station. This works fine and is much cheaper than pet shops. I've dropped them on the floor of the cage or put them in the water bowl. It's interesting to see the snake "harpooning", or trying to get in the bowl with them. Bait stations are usually open year round.

[Lee]

Hello, I've gotten minnows at the bait station. This works fine and is much cheaper than pet shops. I've dropped them on the floor of the cage or put them in the water bowl. It's interesting to see the snake "harpooning", or trying to get in the bowl with them. Bait stations are usually open year round.
No real good bait shops around. I only have fed fish because they are alive, dead food doesnt intrest him much, he ignores it half the time.. I know they have live fish but I thought rodents are a lot healthier for him?

[adamanteus]

Lee, as he's taking live pinks I think you could soon wean him onto dead ones. He won't care, and it's a little less unpleasant for you (and the pinkies!)

[Lee]

Lee, as he's taking live pinks I think you could soon wean him onto dead ones. He won't care, and it's a little less unpleasant for you (and the pinkies!)
Oh he will take dead but its a pain to thaw one and go to the store for one, not to mention it takes like 3 pinkies to fill him up which is more expensive than 1 live rat pup that fills him up. Are there any advantages to feeding dead nutrionally? I don't mind feeding live I'll get used to it..

[adamanteus]

Nutritionally speaking I guess it's the same. I was just thinking dead/frozen/thawed is more convenient and less stressful for the feeder. In the UK it's illegal to feed live rodents.

[Cazador]

Lee,

One could make an arguement that they're more nutritional if they lack tapeworms, and live rodents are a major source of tapeworm. If you freeze them for at least three days, it's said to take care of the majority of parasites. Even though you're feeding babies, the larvae migrate at random through the mother, so it's not safe to assume they're not parasitized.

Rick

[drache]

Oh he will take dead but its a pain to thaw one and go to the store for one, not to mention it takes like 3 pinkies to fill him up which is more expensive than 1 live rat pup that fills him up. Are there any advantages to feeding dead nutrionally? I don't mind feeding live I'll get used to it..

not sure I understand this
to me, anything you can keep in a freezer is convenient
don't you have to get the rat pups at the store too?
they don't have them frozen?
the parasite angle is definitely an issue as well
I get my rodents from a breeder
they're flash frozen, they're clean, and they can live in my freezer for about three months, eliminating many trips to the pet shop
not to mention that, even with shipping they cost about half of what the local shop would charge me
so my snakes miss out on the excitement (not that I notice them caring)
I make it up to them by letting them watch our crazy household

[Lee]

not sure I understand this
to me, anything you can keep in a freezer is convenient
don't you have to get the rat pups at the store too?
they don't have them frozen?
the parasite angle is definitely an issue as well
I get my rodents from a breeder
they're flash frozen, they're clean, and they can live in my freezer for about three months, eliminating many trips to the pet shop
not to mention that, even with shipping they cost about half of what the local shop would charge me
so my snakes miss out on the excitement (not that I notice them caring)
I make it up to them by letting them watch our crazy household
I can't keep them in the freezer. For one, I don't want frozen rodents in my freezer, nor does my S/O.
Cazador: This is true and is something to think about, is there a cheap med I can use to make sure they don't have any?

[Stefan-A]

Could you and your S/O be convinced to keep frozen rodents in your freezer? :) After all, it's just meat. ;)

[adamanteus]

Are there no laws in the US concerning the use of live rodents as food items? In the UK it is an absolute no no. I guess everybody does it occasionally, say to get a reluctant feeder started, but I can't see the point in using live animals if you don't need to. It seems to me more inconvenient...what if the snake isn't hungry? Then you're stuck with a little rat that needs it's Mama!

[Lee]

Are there no laws in the US concerning the use of live rodents as food items? In the UK it is an absolute no no. I guess everybody does it occasionally, say to get a reluctant feeder started, but I can't see the point in using live animals if you don't need to. It seems to me more inconvenient...what if the snake isn't hungry? Then you're stuck with a little rat that needs it's Mama!
Nope not a single law, I know the guy at the petstore feeds them to the store snakes alive. I bought 2 rat pups that are just weaned it seems, he at one and is full, the second is eating hampster food and is being kept alive until next feeding, no problems. However with small pinkies I'll just be out of luck, not to mention... Live pinkies are twice as much as frozen lol.

BTW random question, how many pinkie mice should I feed to a 2 ft 4 in male garter and how often? I see a lot of pictures with bulkier looking snakes, but mine always seems to be a bit slimmer than others I've seen. thoughts?

Stefan: Nope, fear of rodents.... Kinda annoying.

[Cazador]

The cheap and common meds are Flagyl and Panacur for amoeba/protists and worms, respectively. I don't feed pinkies, so I'll let others field that question. If the scales are continually spread apart (even before a meal), and you can see stretched skin between the scales, they're considered to be obese. A little bit of separation between the scales isn't bad, but the stretched skin is a real indicator.

Rick

[drache]

I'm still trying to get around the freezer issue
do you perhaps have a friendly neighbor, friend, relative living near you whose freezer you might rent a tiny piece of real estate in?
it would make things just so much easier
your S/O can't be pacified with brown bagging or opaque containers?
I'd think she'd be much more freaked by you bringing live rodents into the house

[Thamnophis]

I feed my garter snakes only one pinkie every feeding. Next to that they get smelt and chickenheart in the same feeding.