Bob is at it again, and again, and again....

[GartersRock]

The infamous "Bob" officially has me PO'd.... :mad: I see his ad for Puget Sounds posted over and over and over and it irks me to NO end... WHAT kind of a dent it he making off the wild population of these wonderful snakes I love so much!! I feel like crying whenever I see his ad put up again... He's gonna flood the market too. :p
But seriously... It has to stop... Isn't he doing something illegal??

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

::sigh::

i am not sure there is anything we can do about this one here...

anyone ever send him a message asking him to consider the negative effect hes having on their population? i know it probably wont do anything, but still.

[Aundrea]

Who is Bob? What happend?

[Stefan-A]

He's a supplier of low quality but beautiful captive born (not bred) Puget Sound garters, if I remember correctly.

edit: How many euphemisms can you find in that sentence? ^

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I would say WC as well... he sells adults too.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

basically, hes one of them guys who goes out and grabs every garter snake he finds and puts it up for sale... and holds the females until they give birth and then makes an extra profit off the babies.

[reptileparadise]

Well, that sucks...
In which state is he? Hopefully someone can find a law that limits the amount of animals he can catch from the wild????

[Aundrea]

Ohh gosh that sucks big time!! How sad to catch all the snakes like that and just make money and not care. I was looking at Kingsnake and I saw a Bob selling a blue garter wonder if thats the Bob?

[reptileparadise]

Probably yeah

[crzy_kevo]

yeah that would be him selling the beautiful puget sounds and not caring what he does to the population

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Ohh gosh that sucks big time!! How sad to catch all the snakes like that and just make money and not care. I was looking at Kingsnake and I saw a Bob selling a blue garter wonder if thats the Bob?

yes, that's the bob.

[anji1971]

If I recall correctly, people have sent him emails in the past, to no avail.
Apparently, this (insert adjective of choice) just doesn't give a damn. He raids the dens and keeps all the gravid females he can find so he can sell the babies, and they're often not healthy to begin with. Many unwitting folk have paid good money for sick and dying snakes.
If there is a way to stop him, I'd like to know what it is.:mad:

[snakeman]

Everbody that has a puget garter on here got it from him.He supplied everybody.Even the other people you bought them from.It is illegal in the state he is in.

[infernalis]

I would be more than willing to entrap him, but it would probably cost a snake it's life.

Of course to quote Mr. Spock--- "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"

I know exactly how to get fish and game right at his door.:eek:

[infernalis]

Everbody that has a puget garter on here got it from him.He supplied everybody.Even the other people you bought them from.It is illegal in the state he is in.


Honestly. I was naive to the situation when I bought "Sky"

My puget had to be treated at the vet upon arrival:mad:

Sky is healthy now:D

[snakeman]

I am pretty sure fish and game would have to catch him selling at least $1000 worth of snakes.At least that is how it is in pa.

[GartersRock]

Everbody that has a puget garter on here got it from him.He supplied everybody.Even the other people you bought them from.It is illegal in the state he is in.

Although only one of my three females was mentioned as being from bob...

But pretty much, yeah...

I am pretty sure the male I got from Scott is from Bob too...

[garterchick]

all 3 of mine are from him; fairly healthy upon arrival, much better now, and i would't buy from him again now that i know what he does...

[GartersRock]

I didn't know you had Pugets Tina... Thats great that they are doing well! How long have you had them?

[garterchick]

had them for about two years, you should really come to my house and see my little collection, i think you'd like it: eastern blacknecks, flames, pugets, albino checkereds, red-sideds, and some newly aquired het anery red-sided babies from wayne (now you know why i have space issues).

[GartersRock]

I really should! ;) Esp 'cause I've never seen and adult flame or blackneck in person before. lol! I'll see what I can do and get back.
So far I only have Checkereds, Pugets, Wanderings and Oregon Red Spotteds (and redstripe ribbons). But it's growing... Really quickly... Lol!

[infernalis]

Tina, According to Scott, whom I trust very much, those hets color up nicer than "normals".

Every time these little guys shed, they get more stunning:D

[Lori P]

I almost got duped by Bob... and tried to talk to him about his practices but he stopped emailing me. Loser. I hope one day we'll get him shut down somehow.

[infernalis]

http://www.danceswithreptiles.com/1fun/satan.jpg

[Aundrea]

Welp if I ever want to buy a garter from someone it sure wont be Bob then. That is so sad how people sell sick babies just to make a buck. On my turtle board we had the same problem about someone selling sick baby turtles. :mad: Sad sad. I feel so sorry for these poor animals. What does pugets mean? :confused: I like that pic DekayBrown LOL :D

[crzy_kevo]

pugets are a type of garter the puget sounds are blue and very pretty

[garterchick]

thanks, wayne, i'll be looking foreward to that, although they're already nice 'n' red

[Sid]

Welp if I ever want to buy a garter from someone it sure wont be Bob then. That is so sad how people sell sick babies just to make a buck. On my turtle board we had the same problem about someone selling sick baby turtles. :mad: Sad sad. I feel so sorry for these poor animals. What does pugets mean? :confused: I like that pic DekayBrown LOL :D
The name Puget for this snake is due to the fact that they are found in the Puget Soung area of Washington state.

[Aundrea]

Ohhhh ok thanks :D Im learning LOL

[infernalis]

There are lots of pictures of Pugets around here, they are very popular, the blacks are silky and shiny, the blues are bluer than florida easterns, and that white chin is very handsome.

http://www.reformedsniper.net/cane/skyblue.jpg

And the temperment is so sweet, they really are great garters to have.

[Aundrea]

awwwwwwwww what a pretty snake you have there. They are so neat looking. Man it makes me REALLY wanting one LOL :D

[infernalis]

I am pretty sure fish and game would have to catch him selling at least $1000 worth of snakes.At least that is how it is in pa.

at $50 each, all he needs is 20 snakes:eek:

[GartersRock]

Yes. They are very pretty snakes!! My favorite... I have 1.3 Adults...
If you do a search for threads I have started you can find mine. ;)

You're right Wayne! And I am sure he has that many!
The question is... If he got busted... What would happen to the snakes? He has valleys too and who knows what else.

[Garter_Gertie]

'Rockster, the Fed or State would come in and release the snakes into the wild.

[count dewclaw]

What I want to know is...did he get permission to use Paul Bratescu's photos of the Valley garters in his ad? I almost bought some pugets from him, until I found this site and heard what he was doing.

[GartersRock]

Are those his photos too? I knew the one with the puget on that piece of wood or whatever was Pauls... But he has different photos now. Maybe got in trouble?

[count dewclaw]

If you click on the photos you can see Paul's name and the year he copyrighted the photo.

[GartersRock]

*rolls eyes* Oh. Those too... Punk.

[Seere121]

If anybody has his information, you have him right here. Just report him to Washington Fish and Wildlife.
"It is unlawful to import into the state, hold, possess, offer for sale, sell, or release all snake species into the wild without the proper license to do so (WAC 232-12-064 (http://www.leg.wa.gov/WAC/index.cfm?section=232-12-064&fuseaction=section))."

[infernalis]

just did that a few hours ago:D

[zooplan]

I´m interested to see the effect of that.
Will it be possible to recognize any official reaction?

[GartersRock]

Well!! Lets hope they do something! If they don't... Maybe a bunch of us can report him and then that will get their attention.

[infernalis]

There are a couple other avenues to pursue.

Paypal - They frown on collecting money for illegal activity
Kingsnake - Accepting advertisements from outlaws, a no no

Shipping illegally gathered animals across state lines makes it a felony.

[GartersRock]

Oh ya! Just get him off Kingsnake at least... I want this guy gone!

[infernalis]

I'm still not in an aggressive enough mood yet, I'll go walk my dog, listen to my neighbor yell hateful things at me, and then I'll get back to neutering Bob.:D

If anyone would like Bobs information, and or the administrators private email at kingsnake, PM me.

There is power in numbers. Actions speak louder than words. A flood of emails from concerned snake lovers would get kingsnakes attention in a hurry.

The Washington State fish and game would pay more attention to a whole pile of complaints than one that could be construed as a disgruntled indavidual seeking revenge.

I'd also bet the IRS would be interested in his paypal activity:eek:

[GartersRock]

rofl!!!! Too funny!

[infernalis]

rofl!!!! Too funny!

OOps I almost did it again.....

Stay on topic Wayne

[infernalis]

I have my mailing label in front of me, and some of it is rather faint.

It wont take long, I have may paypal trail...

One thing that we all need to be aware of people, This is an open forum, every day hundreds of non member viewers read our posts, Hundreds! if not more.

I look all the time, and there are times I am the only registered member, with 30-60 guests reading our posts, including this thread.

If I were playing poker right now, I'd bet the whole kitty that bob has a heads up already. all it takes is one Pro-Bob reptile dealer who buys wholesale lots to give him the tip.

[crzy_kevo]

i agree wayne that would be all it takes hopefully that is not the case

[infernalis]

Here is a cut and paste from an email I just recieved.:D Use the information wisely danielson.

Thank you for contacting the Wildlife Program of the Washington
Department of Fish and Wildlife. Your e-mail has been received and you
will receive a response within 10 business days.

If you need immediate assistance with Wildlife questions or comments
please call Wildlife Program Customer Service at 360-902-2515 between
8:00 a.m. and 5:00 p.m. Monday - Friday.

For immediate assistance regarding other programs or services, helpful
phone numbers and links are listed below:

Program Phone E-mail

Fish Program: 360-902-2700 fishpgm@dfw.wa.gov
Licensing: 360-902-2464 licensing@dfw.wa.gov
Enforcement: 360-902-2936 enforcement-web@dfw.wa.gov
Hunter Education: 360-902-8111 huntered@dfw.wa.gov

[sschind]

Everbody that has a puget garter on here got it from him.He supplied everybody.Even the other people you bought them from.It is illegal in the state he is in.


You base this information on what? I'm not saying it isn't true but I wonder what makes you think he is the only one with them.

[adamanteus]

Mine are from a European breeder.... never been near 'Bob'.

[zooplan]

Are you sure, James?
I know some of the blue pugets and all of the red phased are bred from self collected specimens but I think their are some comercialy imported blue pugets as well.

[adamanteus]

Udo, mine are Red Phase, from Steven Bol.

[zooplan]

Oh, similar to these:
http://www.zooplan.net/images/picki2.jpg

[snakeman]

They were non-existant in us collections five years ago.They have always been illegal to collect.As soon as "bob" started advertising them everybody jumped on them.Directly or indirectly you got them from bob.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

can someone please send me bob's information and what is the best way to report him? i sent him an email and I am kinda tired of hearing about him not caring about what hes doing.

[adamanteus]

Directly or indirectly you got them from bob.

No. The Grandparents of mine were collected on Vancouver Island by Steven Bol.

[adamanteus]

I don't know 'Bob', and I've never had any dealings with him.....
But haven't we had a whole bunch of our own members collecting up gravid female Garters and offering to share out the babies over recent months?

[drache]

I don't know Bob either, but it sounds like he's very intentional about it
as far as I recall, with the rare exception, our members with gravid females taken from the wild were generally looking for a pet or a breeder, and often they are novices who end up here because of the unanticipated births

[adamanteus]

It just seems to me that 'people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones'. I don't condone what 'Bob' is allegedly doing, far from it, but I think we need to make sure we're not doing exactly the same thing before we get onto our soapbox about it.

[adamanteus]

can someone please send me bob's information and what is the best way to report him?

Shannon, don't you think you're 'skating on thin ice' considering you just posted this....


Actually, from what I am told, they recently changed the bag limit to just having one on you at a time, I simply do not care!
I love my eastern garters and they're not going anywhere. I am hoping to go back for one more weekend in august... think i should?!

[snakeman]

As far as I know nobody on here is raiding dens and selling mass quantities of snakes.Also I said U S COLLECTIONS.If yours were from canada I am assuming they are legal.I don't know anything about canadian law.

[snakeman]

You are getting pretty defensive.Does bob send you snakes?

[adamanteus]

You are getting pretty defensive.Does bob send you snakes?

Yeah, he sends me stuff all the time!:D
I'm not being defensive, I just think we need to be cautious, as some of us are doing the same thing, albeit on a smaller scale and with a lower profile. I don't want any of our members to be embarressed!

[jitami]

Ok, we have a long standing rule on several of my dog lists that may be prudent to use here. No using anyone's name in a negative manner whatsoever. If you want info about someone a simple post saying, "Has anyone dealt with so and so? If so, please contact me privately." Then all "bashing" is at least done in private.

I don't agree with what Bob is doing. It seems to me that he has the means to breed them himself and then sell the babies. If he took 10 to 12 females out of the wild and went this route it would produce a huge number of babies to sell. This would reduce the impact to the population dramatically and still allow him to make a decent amount of money. All would be happy and seems like a decent compromise, but one he has surely thought of and dismissed. I think that's what bugs me the most. That he seems to be taking the easy way out and damaging the natural population in the process when it's totally unnecessary.

Didn't keep my own rule very well did I? This is why I haven't said anything about it previously. Once I get started.... sigh...

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

um, i do not take massive amounts of snakes and sell them?:mad:

I also, as stated, have written and submitted the same several levels to several different departments in PA, only to be totally ignored.


but, never mind then, i'll drop it.

[adamanteus]

I'm not having a go at anyone here... I detest what this 'Bob' is doing, and he needs to be stopped. All I'm saying is be careful, guys... I bet he's no idiot, and he could turn this around on you, unless you're as pure as the driven snow! If he reads this forum, and he probably does (as he deals in Garters) he's read your posts and he knows that some of you bend the rules a little. That's all.

[GartersRock]

You make a very good point James. *nods* We need to be careful.

But on a side note. I am pretty darn sure *know one* here does exactly what he does. Not even close. he has been raiding the dens of this small range population of snakes and selling them in mass quanitys for *years*... Gravid females and all. :mad:

[infernalis]

Really easy, how many Bobs live in the state of washington...

If it was truly "Bashing" there would be something more generic than Bob.

That's all.

what do you call a guy IN Puget sound with no arms or legs "Bob"

[adamanteus]

Amanda, I'm not disputing that... I hate what he does... I just don't want any of our members to take on something that will back-fire on them. If one of us is going to take him on, that person must be 'bullet-proof'... he won't give away his income without a fight.

All I'm saying is... be careful guys.

[crzy_kevo]

wow james you really are a smart guy
basically protect your own arse first

[Garter_Gertie]

All of you, please be careful.

Slander and libel can be construed here. You can go on and on and on about 'Bob' raiding dens, but if you have no proof as in a video, taped conversation, et al, you're pissing into the wind. In my opinion.

HOWEVER, you would be giving a heads-up to the authorities. But, I would make sure I worded my letters/e-mails as "I believe," "In my opinion," I think this," and don't go the "He did this and this and this," unless you have some means - video, blah, blah, blah - to back it up.

Also, don't invlove Thamnophis.com. Send your whatevers as who you are. NOT as a member of here. Do not in any way whatsoever involve tThamnophis.com. What you're voicing is your ideas and opinions - NOT the thoughts, ideas and opinions of those who 'own' this place.

Be responsible.

[adamanteus]

I'm just watching out for 'my guys'! Remember this guys... I'm on your side, all of you, all the time. I'm not having a go at anyone, I just don't want anyone to jump in with both feet and wind up in hot water. Take it slow, think it through.

[infernalis]

great point MK:D

But again, before this thread can even enter a slander case, a last name would need to be published here. "Bob" is a fairly generic name, and if he had nothing to hide, his last name would be published in his Ads.

Secondly, I as many on here posses the credible proof, as in the paypal receipt, the box it came in, etc....

The avalanche has already begun sliding down the mountain, kinda hard to stop it now.

Just don't get buried in it when it crashes...

[GartersRock]

Greeaat advice guys!

[Garter_Gertie]

Avalanche?

Don't you mean the $h!t is starting to slide down tghe dung heap and he who stinks the most gets his @$$ nailed?

Yust wantin' to clarify! :D

Me? Get buried? I'm as pure as the driven snow. Virginal. I've necked, but not gone all the way.

[Garter_Gertie]

Dekay, I love you dearly, but you're nuttier'un a fruit cake! What you have just proves you've gotten sndkes from 'Bob.' Not that he's raided dens, blah, blah, blah.

[crzy_kevo]

yes but if it is illegal for him to sell them then he has him

[infernalis]

It's not illegal to order snakes from kingsake advertisers.

And without running a background check, how was I to know that I was getting and from where?

The sheer volume of WC snakes he sells is the problem at hand.

[Garter_Gertie]

yes but if it is illegal for him to sell them then he has him


Kevie, whatchewmean? Maybe he has a permit? Something like that? I can't see anyone being stupid enuff to illegally sell garters - particularly has he has that are sick, etc. - and thinking no one is going to complain. Which equals getting his @$$ nailed.

And here's something to think about my friends - many I love in a way... - Be very careful of what you wrought... Your very loved and precious babies *may* be confiscated as evidence to SHOW what 'Bob' HAS sold illegally across state lines.

Can you live with that?

[Garter_Gertie]

Dekay, then that's the problem that needs to be addressed and looked into: CB vs. WC.

If he's got no cages or Rubbermaid towers or whatever you breeders use, then there may be something to look into. Like the number of shipments as compared to what he doesn't have. Like... "How could you ship X-Number of snakes in X-Amount Of Given Time you've not the means here to breed?"

That kind'a thing.

[sschind]

They were non-existant in us collections five years ago.They have always been illegal to collect.As soon as "bob" started advertising them everybody jumped on them.Directly or indirectly you got them from bob.


Thanks for the clarification. I did not know they were illegal to collect. I got my pair from Rob and Amy Zerkle but I have no idea where they got their breeding stock from. They very well could have come from Bob.

[bkhuff1s]

I know this is just what you guys want to here, but I just got duped.... For one thing I thought I was getting a similis, I was just searching through the classifieds and saw a similis and had to have one, I'm more of a Green Tree Python person. I searched the internet for something on Bob and didn't pull anything up. It wasn't until after I received the animals that someone forwarded me this link...

[bkhuff1s]

I thought I was getting a similis, but turns out it wasn't. I didn't realize there would be another species of garter that looked as blue as a similis. So everyone can cringe when they read this I bought an adult pair from the guy.... I wouldn't have bought them if I had known that they were wild caught, and second they were actually not what I was looking for....

[bkhuff1s]

Dang it

[BUSHSNAKE]

i cant believe my eyes when i saw some of the things written in this thread, checkered, red spotted, florida blues, valleys, wandering...all of em, even the parents or grandparent or great grandparents or great great grandparent that we breed entered the pet trade this way, i could think of a few people on here that do the samething as "Bob". Collecting for the pet trade isnt what threatens these animals, if your into conservation your barking up the wrong tree. i saw a guy openly selling baby snakes from a snake he openly says he collected himself in his own state and nobody said NOTHING...thats straight up illegal...duh

[bkhuff1s]

I said something similar in another thread.

[bkhuff1s]

I am just completely blown away by the add, because two of my 7 have musked/ snapped at me

[BUSHSNAKE]

are you mad cuz a garter musked and tried to bite you?

[bkhuff1s]

No just raising awareness.

[BUSHSNAKE]

awareness of what if you dont mind me asking?

[bkhuff1s]

For the newer people in the forum, the other side of the argument that's all

[BUSHSNAKE]

your green tree entered the hobby the same way Bob got his pickeringii in the garter pet trade

[bkhuff1s]

True, but I bought my GTP CBB when I could have bought them farmed, but I didn't.

I will spell it out for you. (that was harsh, I'd take it out, but it's already out there, and I'm not one to cover stuff up) I'm breeding these so buy a CB Puget Sound from me (a little self serving admittingly). My original pair is from Bob, this being the one that's pregnant.

I'm on your side about the having to take some from the wild to meet market demands. But I differ on the amounted needed, and I don't particularly like the idea of taking gravid adults from the wild. Hell if I disagreed with taking some of the snakes out of the wild, I'd have to throw my MBA I'm working on out the window.

[bkhuff1s]

I just wanted to say how hypocritical this conversation seems to be turning. It seems that what I'm hearing is it isn't ok to take snakes out of the wild but it is ok to take rare color colorations out. I'd just like to point out the fact that maybe just MAYBE having those snakes the pop out provides food for ANOTHER ANIMAL. Did anyone think that by taking all the rarely colored animals out of the wild that it'll produce the side effect of perhaps not feeding a preditor animal that would be looking for something that pops out at them. Furthermore, has anyone considered the fact that people eat snakes. Which isn't a common practice anymore. Perhaps when we take a few out of the wild it's like us catching them for food. Only the animal that blends in best survives. Survival of the fittest. Granted I don't think taking an endangered animal out of the wild is right either.

[bkhuff1s]

I posted that on another thread, I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm saying is that there are people breeding them. So think about the decision, before buying WC just because they are there, and admittingly cheaper, but it might come back to bite you with vet visits.

[BUSHSNAKE]

you should of purchased farmed animals then atleast you know your contributing to the current gene pool which is important. you cant keep breeding animals without increasing the gene pool. what got me is people were complaining about Bob AFTER they had purchased his animals and thats the problem with this hobby, people love to point fingers, what you gonna do when your initial breeding stock is done, keep breeding the siblings to each other, that no good either

[bkhuff1s]

Yawn, this can go on forever. My reasoning. I agree you need new gene's, but they can be introduced over time. You don't need over saturate the market the point where they are practically worthless though. No sense in doing that. Let the breeders do that, because otherwise people who enjoy breeding them, like me, will end up with clutches and nothing to do with them, because I can't sell them, and no place to release them, since I live in Missouri.

[bkhuff1s]

new GTP's are introduced into the gene pool, but you don't need to do it all at once.

[bkhuff1s]

Taking all in one generation can devastate the species and have wider effects on the ecosystem. That's why I'm for a slow process. Same reason there are regulations on fishing, so the fish can replenish, for the next season.

[BUSHSNAKE]

i wonder how Bob Clark feels with all the people breeding retics? there are alot of people who feel the way you do...be an example to people, be a part of the solution not the problem, if you feel you cant breed something cuz you cant sell the offspring then move on, there are many wonderful herps that people dont consider

[bkhuff1s]

When I can't sell the offspring I won't move on I'll simply quit breeding, because I like these snakes, even this snippy ones.

[Stefan-A]

i cant believe my eyes when i saw some of the things written in this thread, checkered, red spotted, florida blues, valleys, wandering...all of em, even the parents or grandparent or great grandparents or great great grandparent that we breed entered the pet trade this way,
Yes, they did. But you're not arguing that we should keep doing it because it's a tradition, are you?


i could think of a few people on here that do the samething as "Bob".I could, too. Over the years, there have been several of them.


Collecting for the pet trade isnt what threatens these animals, if your into conservation your barking up the wrong tree.To my knowledge, this hasn't been studied in the US, but everywhere else in the world where this has been studied, collecting/harvesting is in fact one of the greatest threats to wild populations. Even if it weren't a major threat, collecting certainly does not help to conserve them.


i saw a guy openly selling baby snakes from a snake he openly says he collected himself in his own state and nobody said NOTHING...thats straight up illegal...duhDid you? If not, why not?

[Stefan-A]

By the way, if you two were planning on going as far as insulting each other, perhaps by name-calling or insinuations, please take it there within the next 10 hours, because that's when I'll be online again, but only for a short while before going offline for 2-3 days and before I do, I'd like to see this line of discussion either neatly wrapped up without anyone losing face, or shut down.

[bkhuff1s]

We talked it out. It's good for member's joining to see this type of discussion going on so that they can form their opinions, and contribute, otherwise we've gone static, and that's never a good thing.