Introducing new snake!

[hjelte]

hi! Please help me with some experienced-advice.
My plains garter is about 4 months old and everything is going great, she started eating pinkis 3 days ago!
My question is: Is it possible to introduce a second garter in to her terrarium/vivarium? Perhaps maybe not even of the sam species (and of course not a wandering/cannibal garter;) i was thinking of a cyrtopsis, sirtalis or a second radix maybe. I´ve got a roomy enclosure but I want to make sure that this won´t be a problem. i have got a smaller pet-box where I can house the new garter for a couple of weeks if it should prove necessary. But I´ve understood that they are not territorial? I guess my question is more about having another species in there and just putting
The same lenght, sex and everything.

Looking forward to answers!!!

[Gijs & Sabine]

Hi Hjelte,

It's no problem to keep more garters together, they're definatly not teritorial ! But I recommend, like you already said, take a garter that have the same lenght. And if you want a different sub species than I think it's best to have the same sex as your own plains. You be suprised how many sub species are mixing together !! I think nobody wants that. But if you want to breed radix than it's nice to have the opposite sex (radix ofcourse):p
Any member of the sirtalis group should be fine with radix. I wound't put a cyrtopsis together with your radix, becouse cyrtopsis are known as difficult eaters and radix are probebly the best, so maybe the cyrtopsis will get stressed than.

Good luck and let us know what you decide:rolleyes:

Sabine

[suzoo]

Hello Hjelte,
I also agree with Sabine, with one other thought. You probably all ready know this, but just in case, I wanted to mention quarentine. Always quarentine a new snake to make sure its healthy and without parasites or diseases for a few weeks before introducing it to your enclosure. Always better safe than sorry! :)
Suzoo

[ssssnakeluvr]

Garters can be fairly social....I have on many occasions found several together under a rock or board. Garters have to be brumated before they will breed, so I don't see a problem with different species together...however make sure that different species are the same or generally close size. Definitely a good idea to quarantine the new snake to make sure it isn't sick or have parasites.

[GarterGuy]

Pretty much agree with the above, definitely make sure they're approx. the same size, just so one snake doesn't intimidate the other (has happened, that one will just become "dominant" over the other), also be really careful over feeding time....a lot of cannibalism is actually two snakes fighting over the same prey item and one snake swallowing the other along with the prey. Garters usually have a VERY strong prey response, so this will be something to watch out for. The biggest thing is definitely quarantine your new snake, for maybe a month at least, to make sure it's healthy and all before caging it with your healthy snake. One final note, just for the record.....T.sirtalis and T.radix have both had documented cases of cannibalism...it may be rare, but it's not impossible.

[Snaky]

I would a vet take a look at the faeces of the new snake, just a small remark on the quarantaine part. For the rest I have nothing to add to the posts above. Cyrtopsis are also the most challenging species of my collection with regards to eating.

edit:
Saw past that one... little addition.

In my experience, garter don't need brumation to breed. Brumation helps to have a better result for good, healthy offspring, but no brumation will not make sure that they won't breed. I know garters that never brumated and still had good offspring.

[hjelte]

ok! thanks everybody for tips and insight! I´m going to a reptile-fair this saturday and most certainly, the same breeder whom I bought my radix of, will be there. Do you still think quarantine will be necessary? And my guess along with yours is that a Sirtalis would be a nice choice. Ok then, so back to the question:) If I don´t need quarantine, shall I just place the new garter in the terrarium or how do you guys do it? Like put in the little plastic box in wich se came and let her crawl out by her own? (Kind of like introducig fish in an aquarium) Curious on your thoughts and methods!

//Christopher

[suzoo]

ok! thanks everybody for tips and insight! I´m going to a reptile-fair this saturday and most certainly, the same breeder whom I bought my radix of, will be there. Do you still think quarantine will be necessary? And my guess along with yours is that a Sirtalis would be a nice choice. Ok then, so back to the question:) If I don´t need quarantine, shall I just place the new garter in the terrarium or how do you guys do it? Like put in the little plastic box in wich se came and let her crawl out by her own? (Kind of like introducig fish in an aquarium) Curious on your thoughts and methods!

//Christopher

Hello again Christopher,
I would definately still quarentine your new snake!!! Then, after you are possitive it is healthy and parasite free, I would take my original snake out of the enclosure and clean it and move things around, then put the new one in first, and then the original one. Then sit back and watch them closely. May not be necessary, but what I would do.
Please quarentine the new one, even with a Vet check!
Suzoo

[hjelte]

alright. So i should quarantine it for a couple of weeks, say...2-3 weeks then?

[suzoo]

Yes, Just to be safe! And taking in a stool (poop) sample to the Vet as well to check for parasites is a good idea too!
Good luck with your new snake!
I wish you all the best, Suzoo

[hjelte]

Yes, Just to be safe! And taking in a stool (poop) sample to the Vet as well to check for parasites is a good idea too!
Good luck with your new snake!
I wish you all the best, Suzoo


Thank you so much for help and info. I´m going to get a Sirtalis or another Radix I believe. If I can found one about the same size that is! I won´t just buy one for the sake of it, of course. But I´m really hoping to find one and now I know what to do with it. Thanx!

[Cazador]

Hi Christopher,

I just wanted to reinforce the quarantine issue. A lot of us on here bought new snakes that appear healthy, but the stresses of shipping and being exposed to new surroundings can allow pathogens to overwelm your snake's immune system. Then they start to become ill within a month or so.

If you're going to house multiple individuals, even from the same subspecies, together, you have to assume that any health issues that one may have will spread to the others in the same enclosure. Many parasites are spread when one snake poops in the water dish, or one snake crawls through the feces of another snake. Some parasites actually enter snakes by boring through their skin. That's why quarantine for a minimum of a month is necessary, and a stool check is a good idea. You'd really be worried if either snake started to show signs of illness a few weeks after you brought it home if they were both housed together right away.

Rick

[GarterGuy]

I would honestly quarantine any new animal for at least a month. Sometimes it takes some time not only to diagnose but also to treak any problems that may come up. Better safe than sorry!

[Gijs & Sabine]

I forgot to say about the quarantine period, shame on me !!:(
But like everybody else says, it's very important. In the beginning of our garterhobby we've made that mistake once. The newones seems healthy in the beginning but within a month all the 6 died and a few of our others as well:mad: (btw we bought them from the wrong kind of people, we know that now)That was a hard lesson for us, so now we have a few quarantine tanks in a sepparate room.

[Stefan-A]

I forgot to say about the quarantine period, shame on me !!:(
But like everybody else says, it's very important. In the beginning of our garterhobby we've made that mistake once. The newones seems healthy in the beginning but within a month all the 6 died and a few of our others as well:mad: (btw we bought them from the wrong kind of people, we know that now)That was a hard lesson for us, so now we have a few quarantine tanks in a sepparate room.
I'm just curious, in what way were they the wrong kind of people? Emphasized quantity over quality, kept their snakes wrong or neglected to treat or get rid of sick animals?

[brown655]

Hjelte!
long time no see....As you've heard garters are sociable with each other,so you shouldn't have any problems if you keep them the same size.by the way I have a wandering in with 2 Cal.red side, same size,no problems.
......................John

[Gijs & Sabine]

@ Stefan:
We bought 6 red sided from a businessman (not sure if this is the right word) Someone who is selling all kinds of reptiles and who's just in for the money. Sadly there always people like this on shows and we didn't know that at that time. We just fell in love with the red siders.
Now we know better:) and thanks to that we have a very nice and healthy collection.

[hjelte]

Thanks for all the advice, wow very cool of all of you.
Ok so the plan is as follows. I´m going to set up a basic quarantine-tank tomorrow morning and then I´m of to the repti-fair, hopefully I will find a garter wich "tickles my fancy"(there´s some english for you;) I will keep the new garter there for a month+ and observe it carefully to see if it has any signs of sickness. Since this will be the first time i quarantine an animal, is it something particular other than that wich I should keep in mind?

[zirliz]

My two live together have to separate during feeding but that's all

[hjelte]

My two live together have to separate during feeding but that's all

ok nice, what kind of garter do you have? How big are they?

[Cazador]

Here's a link to a thread with a lot of warning signs that might indicate if your snake is ill (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/husbandry/205-when-should-i-concerned.html?highlight=constant+motion).

[hjelte]

Excellent! I´ll use at as a checklist. Again, thanks for all the help!
If anything else comes to mind I´ll be sure to ask you guys!

[hjelte]

Ok so I went to the repti-fair yesterday. The garters available where; Tetrataenia (believe me, I was tempted ;) but they were much to big to go with my radix) Proximus (To small, slender and also I believe that they are to different to go with radix. They climb much more, needs a bigger water area etc.) and the last candidates were two male Sirtalis Parietalis. After having a good look on both of them, I decided to buy the bigger of the two. He´s actually -almost- as tall as my radix, but not quite there though. The main thing is, he´s much more thin (thinner?). So I have him in a petbox now (escape-proofed of course) and I have given him a heating-mat on one end of it as well as hideouts in both ends and a waterbowl in the middle of it all. The first two hours in there he was all over his cage, investigating everything. He also ate a piece of vitamine-supplemented fish-fillet. I take that as a very good sign. Of course I will try and convert him to eating pinkies , so that he can catch up in the girth-department. ;)
Anyway, I know the whole issue on male/female here...but since they are both baby/juveniles and I haven´t decided if I should brumate them next winter, the whole mating-issue is something wich I´m guessing won´t be a "problem" until next year.
Feel free to comment on my thoughts!

[Stefan-A]

Pics pics pics :p

It's apparent that you Swedes have a much bigger reptile scene than we do. I don't think there has been a real reptile fair in my lifetime, although there usually are a couple of stands with reptiles at pet fairs. Of course all they have to offer, are corn snakes.

Still have that empty 247 liter terrarium, fully furnished and functioning. Now If I could just find more garters. Went yesterday to the store where I bought my female, turned out that they still had the male it was housed with, but I don't want it. Those tetrataenia and especially the proximus (plural form..?), would have been a nice addition.

[hjelte]

I´m going to post pic later this week. I just don´t want to flash-shock the little fellow the next 48 hours:)

Ok really? That´s a shame, I had no idea. Next time there is a fair, I´ll let you know and you can take the silja line over here;)
Where in Finland do you live btw? I´m in Norrköping, an hours drive south of Stockholm.:)

[Stefan-A]

I live in Borgå (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porvoo), study in Ekenäs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tammisaari). 45 minutes or 1 hour from Helsinki, depending on which town I am in at the moment.

Expo Syd is next, right? ;)

[hjelte]

I live in Borgå (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porvoo), study in Ekenäs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tammisaari). 45 minutes or 1
hour from Helsinki, depending on in which town I am at the moment.

Expo Syd is next, right? ;)

Right on! That´s corrrect, next august. Yesterdays was expo-mitt.
Btw you should out this breeder in Kungsör outside of Västerås.
Kingsear Reptiles (http://www.kingsear.se)
He is the one I bought my radix from last november! He has got som beautiful garters.

[Stefan-A]

I'm definitely going to try to make it to Expo Syd, but it pretty much depends on whether or not I can get someone to take care of the transportation. :o Not too keen on travelling alone, either.

[Cazador]

Hi Christopher,
Captive born snakes, in particular, are known to be able to reproduce WITHOUT being brumated. I don't know how long yours are, but the youngest snakes that I've read about were siblings that mated at 8 months of age and had a litter one week before the female turned 1-year-old! They didn't brumate and were fed generously with vitamin supplementation. They were T. elegans elegans, and her total length was 599mm when they mated.

Rick

[hjelte]

ok...well..I guess I´ll just have to wait and see then. :) I was wondering - How keen are garters on mating? Is it just as possible that they won´t mate as well?

[Cazador]

Here's a good rule of thumb: If you don't want them to mate, they'll be doing it all day long. If you want them to, the male will be disinterested. Just kidding, but keeping them together is a gamble.

There are things you can do to improve their odds of mating, but they are individuals... some males are good breeders, others aren't. I wish I could offer more definitive advise, but it's definitely a risk... particularily if they're both captive born. There are no guarantees when you're keeping a male and female together.

[Stefan-A]

Any reason why the male might suddenly lose interest in the female?

[hjelte]

I´ve posted pictures of the sirtalis in the gallery, but I can´t seem to find that button that copys the pic so I can post it here. Anyways, right before I took the pictures he ate a pinky chopped up in two parts. I take it as a positive sign!

[Snaky]

Hi Christopher,
Captive born snakes, in particular, are known to be able to reproduce WITHOUT being brumated. I don't know how long yours are, but the youngest snakes that I've read about were siblings that mated at 8 months of age and had a litter one week before the female turned 1-year-old! They didn't brumate and were fed generously with vitamin supplementation. They were T. elegans elegans, and her total length was 599mm when they mated.

Rick
Well from my experience and what I've heard of most other breeders, this is really an extreme example. I've heard of 2 year old females, but even these cases don't happen that often. Most of the time a male is up and ready at around 2 years, and a female around 3. So I would not guess with 2 year old snakes, but I would certainly not panic with only 1 year olds...

[Cazador]

Hans,
I definitely gave an extreme example, but only to demonstrate what is possible. However, two year old snakes that haven't been brumated are normally sexually mature. It depends on their rate of growth and energy reserves. Again, these are the "youngest snakes that I know of" that have reproduced.

Christopher,
After you post a picture into the photo gallery, pull it up, and look below it for a button that says, "Copy to Clipboard." Click on that button, then make a new post in the forum. Then click your right mouse button and select "Paste." It will show a web address within your post until you actually submit your message. Afterward, your picture will appear. Have a try,

Rick