Wild Caught Western Terrestrial

[kurtnagel]

Hi All,

New here. New to snakes!

A few days ago my six year old daughter and I caught a garter near my home in Lafayette, CO. After much research, I am pretty sure it is a Western Terrestrial. She (I am referring to her as a she until I know better) has pale yellow lateral stripes and one deep orange stripe down her ridge. She is roughly 18" (guessing, haven't measured her yet) and very pretty.

I have set up her home in a 10Gal with a large water bowl, aspen bedding (which she enthusiastically burrows), a hidey spot, under cage warming mat. For lighting I have a dual socket exo-terra canopy with exo-terra 2.0 and exo-terra 5.0 CFL bulbs. I started out with just the 2.0 + an incandescent day-glo, but found excessive heat build-up with the incandescent and really no discernable temperature gradient from one side to the other.

So I have the following questions:

1) I am not seeing any significant (air) temperature gradient from one side to the other. Is this even possible with a 10Gal or did I screw up and should have gotten the longer 20? The warming mat is on one end of the cage as recommended, with the 2.0 on that side and the 5.0 on the "cool" side.

2) She readily accepts handling and only slimed us when we first caught her. She has so far shown no interest in any of the food offered. I have tried worms and some small fish I caught in the nearby creek. I am thinking that she may have no interest in food for any or all of the following:

A) She is stressed from the new environment and handling and needs some time to adjust.
B) She recently ate and is not hungry.
C) I haven't hit on what she has been eating in the wild so will have to stimulater her to eat what I offer.

I have purchased some frozen pinkies, but am not sure when to try offering them.

Any comments on this? I have read not to be too concerned as they can go weeks without eating.

3) How much should I be handling her? I have read it should be limited to 2-15 mins a few times a week at first. My daughter wants to handle her all the time, but I know that can't be good.

Thanks and salutations!

Kurt

[kurtnagel]

Here are a couple of pictures:

http://greatthingsgreen.com/DSC_0711.jpg
http://greatthingsgreen.com/IMG00420.jpg

[Stefan-A]

So I have the following questions:

1) I am not seeing any significant (air) temperature gradient from one side to the other. Is this even possible with a 10Gal or did I screw up and should have gotten the longer 20?
I think so. It's definitely easier to get a proper temperature gradient in a longer enclosure.


2) She readily accepts handling and only slimed us when we first caught her. She has so far shown no interest in any of the food offered. I have tried worms and some small fish I caught in the nearby creek. I am thinking that she may have no interest in food for any or all of the following:

A) She is stressed from the new environment and handling and needs some time to adjust.
B) She recently ate and is not hungry.
C) I haven't hit on what she has been eating in the wild so will have to stimulater her to eat what I offer.Probably A and C. Reduce the handling to a minimum. If that fails, try another type of food.


I have purchased some frozen pinkies, but am not sure when to try offering them.Any time you feel like trying. :) But I'd avoid handling until it starts eating.


3) How much should I be handling her? I have read it should be limited to 2-15 mins a few times a week at first. My daughter wants to handle her all the time, but I know that can't be good.
As little as possible. The ideal alternative for the snake, would be to not handle it at all. Personally, I don't handle any of my snakes more than a minute per week and some not at all.

Your garter looks like Plains garter (Thamnophis radix), the Western terrestrial garter doesn't live in Colorado.

To make sure, count the scales and see in which scale rows the stripe along the sides is. If it's a Plains garter, the stripe should be in the third and fourth scale rows. If it's in rows 2 and 3, it's something else. Here's a picture illustrating how to count the scales.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/rowcounting.jpg

[Sid]

I agree with everything Stefan has already recommended, and welcome to the forum.

[Brian Hubbs]

Definitely a Western Plains. Here's a pic of mine:

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z279/TricolorBrian/DSC04424.jpg

I know, you're probably wondering what a kingsnake guy is doing on a garter snake forum. Well, I just wanted to show off my Western Plains. heh heh

It's nice to be here.

[anji1971]

Hello, and welcome!:)

[Snake lover 3-25]

I also agree...... but I think that once you do get it to eat you can start to handle it..... just start out slow...... but until it eats.... i'd try not to handle it.....:D good luck and Welcome!!!!!!!

[jitami]

Sounds like you're off to a good start and have gotten some excellent advice already, so just wanted to say Welcome! Between the spider shirt and the handful of snake, your daughter is my kind of girl :) Let her know that she can go back to handling the snake after it settles in and starts eating for you :) Good luck!

[kurtnagel]

I think so. It's definitely easier to get a proper temperature gradient in a longer enclosure.

Probably A and C. Reduce the handling to a minimum. If that fails, try another type of food.

Any time you feel like trying. :) But I'd avoid handling until it starts eating.


As little as possible. The ideal alternative for the snake, would be to not handle it at all. Personally, I don't handle any of my snakes more than a minute per week and some not at all.

Your garter looks like Plains garter (Thamnophis radix), the Western terrestrial garter doesn't live in Colorado.

To make sure, count the scales and see in which scale rows the stripe along the sides is. If it's a Plains garter, the stripe should be in the third and fourth scale rows. If it's in rows 2 and 3, it's something else. Here's a picture illustrating how to count the scales.



Thanks everyone!

I checked the count and the stripe definitely sits in the 3rd and 4th row. I'm pretty sure that I read that the western has a pretty wide range from Canada all the way down through New Mexico and Colorado was on the list. Does the 3rd/4th row stripe provide the definitive answer? What are the distinguishing features of the Western vs the Plains?

Also, I have seen a lot of posts where the sex of the snake has been determined (guessed:confused:) by a photo. What are you looking for beyond an obvious gravid bulge?

Kurt

[infernalis]

"Also, I have seen a lot of posts where the sex of the snake has been determined (guessed:confused:) by a photo. What are you looking for beyond an obvious gravid bulge?"

The shape of the head/neck area, and tail section, taper are good visual indicators.

As adults, Females are far larger than the males.

[kurtnagel]

Sounds like you're off to a good start and have gotten some excellent advice already, so just wanted to say Welcome! Between the spider shirt and the handful of snake, your daughter is my kind of girl :) Let her know that she can go back to handling the snake after it settles in and starts eating for you :) Good luck!

Thanks Tami,

Yes, my daughter, Jessica, has always had a thing for all things creepy crawly. It's funny because she is very girly-girl in other ways. I think she has over 15 baby-dolls that she cares for! She also has a leopard gecko named LuLu and used to have a ball python named Daisy, that is until the ex accidentally killed it with a too-strong betadine bath for a mite problem:( She told her it escaped. I guess the real story will have to wait until she is a bit older. Oh and also had a Rose tarantula that we donated to the school science teacher!

We are still working on a name for this one. So far they haven't been too creative (in my silly adult opinion) The two so far are "Gardener" and "Snakey". After I explained that it is really "garter", the name "Gardener" seems to be sticking, go figure!


Kurt

[kurtnagel]

"Also, I have seen a lot of posts where the sex of the snake has been determined (guessed:confused:) by a photo. What are you looking for beyond an obvious gravid bulge?"

The shape of the head/neck area, and tail section, taper are good visual indicators.

As adults, Females are far larger than the males.

Okay,

I will examine her? a bit more closely. My limited take is that the taper is pretty gradual/uniform with no significant increase. What am I looking for around the head/neck? How does the taper differ male to female?

Kurt

[jitami]

It's ok Kurt, my boys were 8 & 10 when we got our snake and he ended up with two names. The boys couldn't decide and I figured it really didn't matter since the snake couldn't hear anyway :)

[jitami]

btw, there's a pretty good sexing care sheet somewhere... let me see if I can find it. I think it's Melissa Kaplan's(don't even know if I'm spelling that correctly or if it's even the right name!) Lemme look...

[jitami]

Not what I was looking for, but not bad...
Alan's Garter Snakes - Maintenance of Garter Snakes (http://www.gartersnake.co.uk/maintenance.htm#Sexing%20snakes)

ok, this is bugging me now...

[Stefan-A]

I'm pretty sure that I read that the western has a pretty wide range from Canada all the way down through New Mexico and Colorado was on the list. Does the 3rd/4th row stripe provide the definitive answer? What are the distinguishing features of the Western vs the Plains?

It's a definite sign. The only other species with the stripe in those rows, are the two ribbon snakes and they don't resemble either radix or elegans. Then there's the general appearance.

I go by this application:
snakefinder (http://www.gartersnake.de/snakefinder/snakefinder.html)

According to it, T. elegans should be found in the westernmost parts of the neighbouring states, but not in Colorado.

[Elliot]

Welcome to the forum, and I agree with Stefan. It looks more like a plains than a western terrestrial, especially with that bold orange stripe they are famous for!

[kurtnagel]

Thanks!

I will look up the plains.

Another question. It seems that some feed in home and some remove to feeder boxes. Given that she has not yet fed while in my care and the recommendation is to not handle her until she does, it seems I should feed her in her home, yes?

Opinions about feeder boxs/bags once she is acclimated?

Kurt

[Stefan-A]

Thanks!

I will look up the plains.

Another question. It seems that some feed in home and some remove to feeder boxes. Given that she has not yet fed while in my care and the recommendation is to not handle her until she does, it seems I should feed her in her home, yes?
I think so, yes.


Opinions about feeder boxs/bags once she is acclimated?
Anything escape proof is fine. Paper towels, newspaper or towels as substrate, or no substrate at all. The idea is that nothing can get accidentally ingested.

[kurtnagel]

Not what I was looking for, but not bad...
Alan's Garter Snakes - Maintenance of Garter Snakes (http://www.gartersnake.co.uk/maintenance.htm#Sexing%20snakes)

ok, this is bugging me now...

Tami,

No problem!

I guess my initial (and beginner) take looking at the above pictures and description is that with the very gradual and uniform taper on this one, it appears to be female. But, that is without a detailed examination.

I will make a closer examination and post some pictures once she has fed and I am able to handle her. Hopefully then the more experienced of you can make the call!

Kurt

[kurtnagel]

It's a definite sign. The only other species with the stripe in those rows, are the two ribbon snakes and they don't resemble either radix or elegans. Then there's the general appearance.

I go by this application:
snakefinder (http://www.gartersnake.de/snakefinder/snakefinder.html)

According to it, T. elegans should be found in the westernmost parts of the neighbouring states, but not in Colorado.

Interesting. Yes according to snakefinder it is not found in Colorado, but according to gartersnake.info the terrestrial can be found, along with the plains garter! :confused: Gartersnake.info uses (Baird and Girard 1853) as a reference. Admittedly an old reference, but...

It is not all that important as I will not ever attempt to breed her, but if there are any significant behavioral or care issues, that would be nice to know.

Kurt

[kurtnagel]

Okay,

I did find a site that indicates the Plains is abundant all throughout western Kansas, so could easily be in Colorado as well. Plus, the picture on the site is spot-on with what I have, so I am definitely leaning more towards the Plains.

I found a Colorado site that shows that both species are found in Boulder County, Colorado (Colorado herp society), but the description of the Plains is closer to what I have. Here is the description of the Elegans:

Western Terrestrial Garter Snake (Thamnophis elegans) http://webspinners.com/coloherp/geo/species/SpeMaps/MapThel.gif
http://webspinners.com/coloherp/geo/species/SpeMaps/RangeKey.gif Description: Adults 24" to 42" in length. Color brown to gray; gray and light tan checkerboard pattern conspicuous in juveniles, darkens and becomes obscure with age. Light stripe down sides of body, becomes less prominent with age. Prominent light stripe down back on individuals from southeastern Colorado; stripe faint or absent elsewhere. Moderately slender body; keeled scales. Single anal plate. Elevation Range: Usually below 11,000', but has been found at 13,100' in San Miguel County, southwest Colorado. Subspecies in Colorado: Thamnophis elegans vagransand

Here is the Radix:

Plains Garter Snake (Thamnophis radix) http://webspinners.com/coloherp/geo/species/SpeMaps/MapThra.gif
http://webspinners.com/coloherp/geo/species/SpeMaps/RangeKey.gif Description: Adults to 42" in length. Color greenish gray, light olive, to brownish; prominent yellow to orange stripe on back, pale stripe on sides. Moderately slender body; keeled scales. Single anal plate. Elevation Range: Below 7500' in eastern Colorado. Subspecies in Colorado: Thamnophis radix haydenii
Kurt

here are the sites I found:
Plains Garter Snakes in Kansas (http://www.gpnc.org/pgsnake.htm)Colorado Herpetological Society (http://webspinners.com/coloherp)

[Loren]

Hi, and welcome. As already said, a 20 long will be easier to give a good temp gradiet,(plus the snake will enjoy the room) but I have gone a few routes with smaller tanks- either an undertank heater on one end (they are better off with a thermostat- some of them get really hot), or flexwatt heat tape (has to be thermostatically controlled) or by pointing a 40 watt heat lamp at the outside of one end of the tank. I do this on 5 gallon tanks for small desert snakes like shovelnose and ground snakes, it gives me a temp gradient of over 100 deg. f. down to room temp in a 16" long tank.
If using a heat lamp over a 10 g, be very careful to check temps.
Ge makes a 30 watt flood bulb in an r20 size that throws a pretty tight heat pattern(walmart has them). You could try one of them over one end of a 10 gal and see what temps you get.
Ultimately, you will be better off with a 20L though. :)

[Lori P]

Welcome Kurt! You have a beautiful snake there indeed. (And a very sweet daughter, too!!) I hope you enjoy it here! :-)

[reptileparadise]

Welcome to the forum!
It looks like most answers have been given.
Just make sure you're alowed to keep radix in your state!

[adamanteus]

Hi Kurt, and welcome to the forum.:)

[Brian Hubbs]

No offense Kurt, but the terrestrial looks NOTHING like a Plains. They are drab, with faint back stripes and mostly black heads. You have a Plains. End of story. Kaput. Fini. Enjoy your Plains. They really gobble down nightcrawlers. Easy to maintain without lights or any other garbage. Just give it a hiding box, shavings, a water bowl, and temps between 72 and 82 degrees. Mine does fine at room temperature in a plastic sweater box from Wal-mart that has no light because it's in a shelf unit. :)

[kurtnagel]

No offense Kurt, but the terrestrial looks NOTHING like a Plains. They are drab, with faint back stripes and mostly black heads. You have a Plains. End of story. Kaput. Fini. Enjoy your Plains. They really gobble down nightcrawlers. Easy to maintain without lights or any other garbage. Just give it a hiding box, shavings, a water bowl, and temps between 72 and 82 degrees. Mine does fine at room temperature in a plastic sweater box from Wal-mart that has no light because it's in a shelf unit. :)

Brian,

No offense taken! After all the great advice here and additional searches, I agree with your assessment. I was able to find good descriptions and a few definitive pictures, yes, she is a plains! Just to be safe, I looked up the Colorado Division of Wildlife Regulations, I'm legal :)

Here it was it says:
(Some text deleted to save space!)

ARTICLE I - GENERAL PROVISIONS #1000 - PROTECTED SPECIES A. Nongame species and subspecies, including threatened or endangered wildlife are protected and their harassment, taking or possession is prohibited except as follows: ...

6.Except as provided in #015.A. of these regulations, up to four individuals of each of the following species and/or subspecies of reptiles and amphibians may be taken annually and held in captivity, provided that no more than twelve in the aggregate may be possessed at any time: ... Western terrestrial garter snakeThamnophis elegans Plains garter snakeThamnophis radix























Thanks for the advice!

Kurt

[adamanteus]

T.radix are fantastic snakes, Kurt. I have 6 of them and they are my favourite Garter. Congratulations!:)

[kurtnagel]

Woo Hoo!

Thank you WalMart! She took a night-crawler today! Just dangled the thing in front of her nose and bam! She wouldn't take a second one, she seemed a bit freaked out, so I will wait a day or two and try again. How many should she eat at one meal?

Only thing I am worried about is my substrate. Aspen shavings stuck to the worm as she gulped it down. All scraped off by her lips as it passed, but I think there is a danger there. This might be a good reason to feed her out of her enclosure, yes?

I should probably switch substrates, but she really seems to enjoy the burrowing. Any suggestions?

Kurt

[Brian Hubbs]

I feed 2 or 3 worms in succession. My substrate is pine shavings, but the same problem will occur. Try putting her in a small hide box (cereal box) and putting the worm inside, away from the shavings. That's what I do.

[Lori P]

They really do love to burrow... and I didn't want to take that away from mine, either. I switched to a bedding called Care Fresh, which is a paper pulp type... it safely passes through them if they ingest it. You might be able to try feeding her in another enclosure... see how she reacts... and decide about the bedding from there. In my mind, snakes in the wild are naturally going to swallow a bit of debris... and can usually handle it. But of course, they aren't stuck on wood shavings in the wild, either, I do realize. :-)

[Elliot]

I feed 2 or 3 worms in succession. My substrate is pine shavings, but the same problem will occur. Try putting her in a small hide box (cereal box) and putting the worm inside, away from the shavings. That's what I do.

Pine shavings can be toxic to your snake. I would change your bedding.

[Brian Hubbs]

I wasn't aware of that. I know Cedar shavings are toxic, but in over 25 years of keeping snakes I've never had a problem with pine shavings affecting health. anyone know more about this? Is it just a garter problem? Is it really a problem at all?

[Elliot]

It may be a rumor, but I've heard quite a few people say bad things about it. I don't have any first hand experience though so I could definately be wrong.

[ssssnakeluvr]

definitely a radix.... colorado has t e vagrans (wandering garters), not western terrestrials. thats definitely a nice looking one!!!

[ssssnakeluvr]

Definitely a Western Plains. Here's a pic of mine:

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z279/TricolorBrian/DSC04424.jpg

I know, you're probably wondering what a kingsnake guy is doing on a garter snake forum. Well, I just wanted to show off my Western Plains. heh heh

It's nice to be here.
that's friggin sweeet!!!!!!!!!! where can I get a pair like that?!?!?!?!?!

[Brian Hubbs]

I'm not allowed to reveal the locality or even the state :(, but I can say this...they don't all look that good from that area. This one was exceptional. Hence the reason I finally decided to add a garter to my collection. I have 44 snakes, and only 3 are non-kingsnakes.

[Lori P]

I wasn't aware of that. I know Cedar shavings are toxic, but in over 25 years of keeping snakes I've never had a problem with pine shavings affecting health. anyone know more about this? Is it just a garter problem? Is it really a problem at all?

Good catch, Elliot! I've also always been told not to use pine for snakes. Pine oils are apparently also a problem. But again, I have no "proof"; just what I've read and been told. Aspen seems to be the wood bedding of choice. But Brian, if you've never had a problem, it's your choice. :-)

[Garter_Gertie]

I'm not allowed to reveal the locality or even the state :(, but I can say this...they don't all look that good from that area. This one was exceptional. Hence the reason I finally decided to add a garter to my collection. I have 44 snakes, and only 3 are non-kingsnakes.

Gosh that's spooky. How did you come to have the snake?

[Brian Hubbs]

It was a rescue and a gift. Can't say any more. I'm sworn to spooky secrecy.:)

[Garter_Gertie]

Brian, is yours a T. radix heydnii? (Did I spell that right?) Or a T. s. infertalis? (Did I get the name correct?)

I'm a little confused as to what snake in this thread is what/which.

[Brian Hubbs]

It's a T. radix haydenii.

[Stefan-A]

As far as I know, the radix subspecies don't exist anymore.

[Brian Hubbs]

Oh well, then its a radix.