A disturbing trend, really disturbing

[infernalis]

Lately I have been reading a lot of posts regarding birthing & picking up gravid females either unintentionally or outright targeting gravid females simply to feel "included" in the breeding forum.

This is not to be taken so lightly, it is not some cute thing, "Awe I'm going to have babies" it is VERY serious stuff.

Or oh they all died, better luck next time:eek: SHOCKING!!!!

If someone is new to keeping snakes, that person should have the self control to keep one snake for a period of time, learn the hobby, advance skill and knowledge. Gain understanding of natures process.

When James brought this issue up once before, the topic went onto several tangents until the thread became a photo gallery of pretty red snakes, completely losing sight of the point at hand.

The miracle of birth is awesome, soul stirring and inspires joy in many people, but in reality would you want someone who just read "Md. Magazine" for the first time to deliver YOUR children?

Unless the resources/money/housing/space and proper food are at your disposal, intentionally gathering gravid females just so one can feel included in the "Baby buzz" is a disaster waiting to happen.

And then when the disaster does in fact happen, (all too often) it appears if there is no lesson learned, except that it's OK, just go grab another and try again.:(

Birthing and caring for neonate snakes is not this easy walk in the park many folks try to portray it to be. It is hard work and requires dedication and should not be taken lightly.

Disrupting the balance of nature to satisfy one selfish desires to play doctor in the delivery room is WRONG:mad:

[Garter_Gertie]

Bravo! (clap, clap, clap)

[Stefan-A]

I definitely agree and although I've tried to keep my mouth shut, I do find it disturbing.

Well, some of my opinions on the issue came up in the thread Wayne is talking about, but I would like to add, that I find it less ethical than just catching a non-gravid snake. That's the crap they do in the third world. They catch gravid females, keep them until they give birth or lay their eggs and then release the females that survived pretty much just anywhere. The chances of survival are piss poor both for the offspring and the female, with all the stress from being gravid and being caught and kept under substandard conditions. The conditions may be better here, but from what I've seen, only marginally, considering how inexperienced some are. The main difference is that over there, they're doing it for money, much like "Bob". That's actually easier to understand, than the phenomenon I've seen here.

Now, I'm not pointing a finger at anyone in particular or blame them for any mistakes, we have all made mistakes, but it appears to me that some aren't taking it as seriously as the situation warrants. Again, I want to point out that I'm not talking about any person in particular. If you feel that what I say here is about you because of something that's going on in your life right now, I assure you, the timing is coincidental. I tend to wait for others to bring up a subject before I express my views.

I really hope Wayne's analysis is incorrect, that people really aren't trying to play 'mommy' because of some silly baby fever. Catching a gravid female and having it give birth, doesn't make you a breeder. You don't get any credit or respect for it, not from me anyway.

From what I've read here, elsewhere on the net and in literature about garters, they're are pretty much considered trash snakes in North America (and to some extent here, too), in part because of the abundance of cheap wildcaught specimens on the market and "free" ones in the wild. I've seen people here absolutely revel in that attitude.

I didn't expect to have to witness it here on this forum. When I first came here, I was happy to find that people here didn't have that attitude at all. Most people here were quite serious about keeping and caring for their garter snakes. And why wouldn't they be, they had actually paid significant sums of money for their snakes, and they knew what they wanted when they bought them. They didn't buy just any random $5 garter from a pet store, and if there's something I've noticed in my life, it's that how much energy, time and money a person is willing to spend on an animal, is directly correlated to how much the animal itself costs. I cringe every time I see somebody who's looking for a cheap snake, because I know that's what the person is going to focus on when it comes to feeding, housing and health care. Of course there are always exceptions, but I see a clear correlation.

Naturally, I don't expect anyone to agree with me just because I have expressed an opinion. Just accept that this is what it looks like from my perspective, even if you think I'm harsh, unfair or just plain wrong. I'm not here to force my opinions on others.

But there it is. I may have strayed from the issue Wayne brought up, but it's something I tend to do.

[Lori P]

I concur. One of things I loved about this forum when I joined was the seriousness with which people took their chosen hobby. This forum has a high standard of care and ethics, as well as an intellect not often found in forums I've frequented before.

I actually found my self typing "congrats" over and over lately and suddenly realized the other day that I didn't really mean it... and I intend to stop the empty words. I applaud and respect those on here who breed for quality and integrity in the lines, and who don't produce more than they can care for and re-home. I, also, don't want anyone to feel singled out or attacked, I just want to agree with Wayne and Stefan that breeding is a serious commitment, and shouldn't be taken lightly or done just for fun and entertainment. These are lives we are responsible for.

I know I am the first one to joke and giggle and digress. But never with the intention to lessen the importance of these animals' lives and care and well being, or our responsibilites in these matters. Breeding is a serious undertaking and should not be taken on carelessly or impulsively. Removing gravid females from the wild is something that should be given a great deal of thought, and then, yet more thought... I, personally, could never do it (unless that purple garter comes along, of course ;)).

Thanks, Wayne, for bringing this out there again. It never hurts for all of us to give pause from time to time to re-evaluate our reasons, purpose, methods, and husbandry of our snake keeping hobby. It's all too easy to get sidetracked and let those high standards that I hope we all strive for to slip a bit. A true hobbyist knows when to backtrack to re-set those standards.

[GartersRock]

Well said all of you!! I completely agree.... Definantly needed to be said!

[Lumpy]

So let's be fair. Those of you who consider yourselves experienced and knowledgeable when it come to Garders, reptiles or what have you, started out as experts? You can learn from others, read book, learn terms, but you gain knowlegde and understanding through your own personal experiences. I think caring for any animal is more a factor of maturity than money. I grew up watching my Dad drive a car, but I was no expert the first time I got behind the wheel. We all have to start out as novices.

While I agree that keeping a captive Garder for the sake of babies is self serving and not smart, I think those who have considerable background with Garters have a duty to educate, assist and have discussions like this. I wouldn't take for granted that there are caring and engaged people who desire to learn and do well by their snakes.

I have to be honest, and I'm not pointing fingers either, but the flip side of this is a certain amount of brow beating I see on the forum as well. I don't think that attitude is endearing to the cause either. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but there's a ying and a yang to all this. I think it wise to point out possible issues and take the opportunity to educate owners about the health and saftey of Garters to those less knowledgeable, but to outright suggest that the less experienced are incapable is foolish. I see it as a prime opportunity to empart experience to those seeking it. But there's a certain level of "those who don't know, shouldn't have them" attitude that I feel is counter productive and will drive people away. I don't see as an inviting reason for anyone to stick around and learn.

Again, sure there are some people (not suggesting anyone here) who shouldn't own any living/breathing thing that relies on it's caregiver for all things. However, someone who comes to this forum to learn about a Garter they caught, bought or was given is at least showing an inkling of interest in learning about the nature and care of their pet. I think that should be nurtured. Nothing wrong with being direct with someone who you think may be harming a snake, but how you approach it makes all the difference. Being flippant, and yes I've seen it here, isn't going to help anyone's cause.

As Stephan stated, these are my opinions, take them for whatever they are worth to you.

Lump

[GartersRock]

I don't think anyone is saying that you *must* be experienced to care for a gravid snake or her babies... Sure it is better. But I don't feel *totally* necessary. It just seems to be a trend lately that seems to be taken so lightly. It's serious business.

[reptileparadise]

Thank you very much Wayne for bringing this subject to our atention again!


Catching a gravid female and having it give birth, doesn't make you a breeder. You don't get any credit or respect for it, not from me anyway.

Amen! Lots of people seem to be out for respect these days. Offcourse, its nice to have some respect, but this is not the way to do it!

Sadly, the people collecting gravid females just to be a part of the babyboom won't be reading this topic and if they do, they probably won't give a reaction to it.
I just cannot think of any reason to collect species from nature that are very well maintained and bred in captivity. If there is one, please let us know!

[JSI]

Collecting from the wild should always be frowned upon whether you’re and expert or a beginner. Especially when there is an abundance of captive bred animals available for very little price. Sometimes free for god sakes.

Really the only time wild caught animals should be used is when a species is new to the hobby and you’re looking to establish a captive bred population. That’s not something a beginner should be doing anyway.

Jeremy

[Stefan-A]

But there's a certain level of "those who don't know, shouldn't have them" attitude that I feel is counter productive and will drive people away.Some people keep rushing headlong into situations they should be able to recognize as problematic, especially for a beginner. Others keep making the same mistakes over and over and over again, without seemingly learning anything. At some point you just run out nice ways of telling them to slow down and reconsider.

Anyway, I'm off. Hopefully I'll be able to get online at some point these next couple of days.

[dashnu]

I agree, and also agreed in the other post. I have caught and released two gravid females this year. In total I have 6 WC Garters currentlly and plan to sex them and keep only 2 females and 2 males (if I even have one). This will give me another year of experience on top of my year + of previouse experience. My biggest concern is damiging the wild population, I feel taking a gravid female does this EXSPECIALLY when failure is an option.

I recently got in touch with Maine.gov and found a very helpful guy who laid down the laws for me. I can not keep any native species snake in Maine without a permit. After talking with him he sent me info to obtain a permit. He aslo ask for my help with a couple projects they have going. For me these laws are not in place for NO reason... the population of snakes is important. I would feel terrible if I had part in hurting that.

[jitami]

Thank you for bringing this up again. There have been some very good points made and it is something that has been bugging me recently as well. Since I'm new to the forum I was beginning to wonder if this was an annual occurrence. Much like the overabundance of kittens in the springtime.

I think part of the problem is that garters give birth at the same time that all the kids are out of school. I think we have some wonderful, caring, intelligent teens on this list. Some are more knowledgeable than others. Heck most of them are constantly teaching me things! The others are still very impressionable and are learning from all of us. I think it's going to take a fine balance of encouraging these young adults to always look at the best interest of the snake and accepting that they are kids. They are learning, and while it's not an excuse, all of us made some really stupid decisions when we were their age.

I want to thank you all for the gentle education I've received here. I tend to research the h*ll out of something before actually doing it, but if it weren't for this trait, and the guidance from this forum, I'd probably have a tank full of babies right now as well.

[crzy_kevo]

i completely agree with all of you and yes i have only been caring for garter for jsut over a month but i have also been fascinated by reptile and snakes especially and am willing to learn more and have learned so much about garters through this forum that i could have never learned from just wikipedia or anywhere else and i am willing to take on the responsibilities of the baby garter snakes that my gravid female will have as well as making sure they are in good health before releasing them into the wild
and i am only going to keep 2 of the male babies for when i start breeding in a couple of years

[infernalis]

Kevin, no one is targeting you here, and I'm sorry if you feel it was.

This is a universal issue, it affects all of us.

And one really important thing that many of us do not even realize, every day hundreds of non registered guests troll our forum for information.

Just click the quick links, scroll down to "who's online" and click that:eek:

At any given moment there is way more guests than users reading our posts.

So we need to be very mindful of the messages we send the world here.

When we hear of a 7 year old having baby snakes in a house where the parents don't even like snakes, it scares me for the welfare of those babies.

It is our responsible duty to politely ask them to release those babies:eek:

[crzy_kevo]

i never felt like i was being targeted i was just putting it out there that i feel i am ready for such a responsibility even though i am new to keeping these wonderful animals actually right now i am constructing a temporary snake enclosure for the gravid girl to be in until i pick up my 10 gal for her

and i know you have faith in me wayne :D

[Snake lover 3-25]

I picked up a large female years ago...... and it just so happened to be gravid..... I raised those babies for a few weeks and in that short amount of time I fell in love with the species.... but I knew that I had neither the time or the money to care for them.... so I released all but one... and the female.... since then I have learned so much.... but I never tried to get a gravid female..... I found one.... the only reason I kept her is because she was one of the babies that I had released 2 years ago and she was on the verge of death.... so she had her babies..... and I nade a stupid Mistake....... but that was just enough...... and they are gone..... I want everyone to know that 5 mins is all it takes.... just 5..... and if you even think for a second that it will be easy..... don't do it..... if you think that it is possible for you to forget...... for ven 5 minutes let it go.... give it back...... it won't be worth it....... but if you have the time the money the space the intrest the memory the resources and everything else that you think you may need..... don't breed....... but if you feel that you do have these things and you want to help your population then feed them...... don't give up.... resist the urge to handle them..... resist the urge to keep even one..... even one that you feel you won't be able to care for for many..... maybe even more than 10 full years.....don't keep it..... but I have learned that every time you feed those babies it increases their chances of survival..... and so I feel that it is worth my time and money....... and that I do have the resources..... so I am going to do it..... I don't do this.... any part of it..... to feel included...... or accepted among the people on this site..... and I especially don't do this for myself...... I do this for them..... for the snakes.

[Zephyr]

I think that to take a gravid female from the wild, and be inclined to keep her babies shows a certain level of knowledge in the subject itself. My friend Abby said her friend caught a gravid garter snake and released it and its babies once they were born. To want to care for the snake, nonetheless identify it as gravid, requires a certain level of skill and knownledge in the first place.
Also, I think that the most crucial point to taking gravid snakes is making sure the area you're taking them from can endure the loss of both the ma and her babies. Henceforth, it's everything but responsible to go to an area with only a few garters and swipe the biggest, fattest female you can find. (The exception to this would be at some one's house or on there land, where the snake would either be killed by the home/land owner or meet Mr. Choppy the lawnmower.)

[Stefan-A]

I think that to take a gravid female from the wild, and be inclined to keep her babies shows a certain level of knowledge in the subject itself. My friend Abby said her friend caught a gravid garter snake and released it and its babies once they were born. To want to care for the snake, nonetheless identify it as gravid, requires a certain level of skill and knownledge in the first place.
Also, I think that the most crucial point to taking gravid snakes is making sure the area you're taking them from can endure the loss of both the ma and her babies. Henceforth, it's everything but responsible to go to an area with only a few garters and swipe the biggest, fattest female you can find. (The exception to this would be at some one's house or on there land, where the snake would either be killed by the home/land owner or meet Mr. Choppy the lawnmower.)
I couldn't disagree with you more. Even if a person is capable of identifying a gravid garter, doesn't mean that the person knows the first thing about keeping, caring for and raising garters or is otherwise suitable for the job. On the contrary, it shows a fairly careless and selfish attitude to do so, even if the person may just be well-meaning and naive.

I also disagree with the point you're making about only taking from areas, that can endure the loss of the female and the offspring. Who here can honestly tell (and I do mean estimate for real, not just guess) whether or not the population can endure it? That one person isn't the only one catching or killing snakes and it adds up quickly. That's one way to reduce a healthy population to a level where it starts to collapse on its own. And like I pointed out in the other thread, catching a gravid female does as much damage to the population, as killing it. If it's about feeling good about having saved a snake's life, then that's something I think is legit, but that's not a real favour. Leaving it alone and hoping that it will escape detection or will avoid being run over by the lawnmower, is already a much safer alternative. Maybe even better than relocation.

[Lumpy]

Every CB Garter can tace it's lineage back to a a WC female, gravid or not. She became gravid at some point either through nature or experienced/inexperienced breeder. For everyone here owning either WC or CB, it sure seems like it would impact the wild Garters bottom line. For all the CB snakes that could have been born to the wild, that's significant, population endurance not withstanding. Everybody who owns a Garter is accountable in that regard.

I saw something on TV recently about the population growth of non native Boas in Florida. They get loose, breed and end up hanging out in someones back yard. Animal control is called in, they catch the snake and who knows what becomes of them. I imagine many are put down. Snakes escape their enclosures all the time. Can this not happen to a responsible owner or breeder? Should they be banned from ever owning a snake based on a judgement call of their abilities? Where do we draw the line?

Should non native species not be allowed importation/exportation because of the problems it might cause? I don't know. So we all start grabbing males. Won't that have an impact to the numbers in the wild as well? Can't careless mistakes be made with them? It is less harmful because babies aren't involved? WC gravid females are just the tip of the iceberg and I certainly think concern is warranted. It's a matter of seeing the forest from the trees.

Lump

[Stefan-A]

Every CB Garter can tace it's lineage back to a a WC female, gravid or not. She became gravid at some point either through nature or experienced/inexperienced breeder. For everyone here owning either WC or CB, it sure seems like it would impact the wild Garters bottom line. For all the CB snakes that could have been born to the wild, that's significant, population endurance not withstanding. Everybody who owns a Garter is accountable in that regard.
Of course it impacts, whether or not a snake is CB or WC. The difference in how big the impact is.


Can this not happen to a responsible owner or breeder?
It's something that happens LESS frequently to responsible people.

[drache]

danm! I had a whole long post written and it just disappeared

to reiterate
thanks for starting this thread, Wayne

it disturbs me that people intentionally take gravid females from the wild
it disturbs me that people take large quantities of snakes from the wild
it doesn't bother me when someone takes one or two snakes to keep or even breed down the line
it does bother me when I see snakes being sold for five or ten bucks, because I can see that they're not valued and what that spells out down the line

I love having babies, but I also want them to go to a good place and will probably no longer breed any of my snakes that are not likely to have desirable, slightly pricey offspring

accidents do happen, but people with experience tend to be better at preventing them

experience is generally something one gains with time and slowly
it's not really okay to practice on live beings
the intent for a beginner should be to get their first snake to thrive before they get more - that's all

the fact that people end up here is a good thing

[anji1971]

Thank you, Rhea.
I've been pondering this thread since yesterday, and couldn't for the life of me organize my thoughts/opinions into a coherent post. That happens to me often!
You just summed up most of them right there.

It is very easy, when first becoming hooked on snakes, to want to get as many as possible as soon as possible. You'll want to raise babies, lots of babies. That's not an abnormal impulse. However, it is important to recognize that the thrill of a new and exciting hobby is a different story from the reality of everything entailed in practising that hobby.
We must continue to gently remind the newer "snake addicts" to slow down, learn, and gain experience. There is a lifetime to acquire a great snake collection, and be able to breed them responsibly if one so chooses.
And yes, hopefully, all those newcomers will find this place.:)

[MoJo]

Thanks for starting the thread Wayne. I don't have anything to add since I think most people have clearly stated my opinion that taking a gravid female from the wild is wrong and that breeding may be easy but caring for the offspring and finding homes for them is often not.

[adamanteus]

Interesting that this topic has reared it's head again.
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/3400-collecting-gravid-females.html?highlight=collecting+gravid
I think the point that some people are inclined to miss is that the criticism is against the deliberate collection of gravid females, not against the collection of wild Garters per se. Although I'm sure there are those who would argue against even this.
It's a good topic and an interesting discussion. I'm sure we can talk about this without personal attacks or offending anyone.:)

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Great thread; a necessary one! Good job Wayne! Great commentary Stefan!
Sorry I have not been that active lately. Work has been kicking my ... !

Steve

P.S. Saw 5 black bears in the woods yesterday! (2 black cubs - whereabouts of mama unknown, but nearby to be sure!; and 2 cinnamon cubs with a cinnamon mom!)

[zooplan]

The worst thing on collecting gravid females is to me when it happends for commercial interests.
I don´t know what it is like today, but I remember that gravid females were offered on kingsnake.com only few years ago.

[infernalis]

Udo I have seen gravid snakes offered on Kingsnake very recently:(

[zooplan]

I guessed so:(

On German fairs it is forbidden to offer any gravid or ill animals.

[infernalis]

I wish that were true here in the US.

One reason why I have a hard time at shows, is the blatant disregard for life.

I would likely get arrested if I were to step up to the "wrong" table.

[KITKAT]

OK... an ethics question...

A garter hobbyist collects a gravid female, feeds her and successfully keeps her until she drops her offspring.

The female is then released where she was found.

The offspring are all fed at least once, the garter hobbyist keeps four offspring, and releases all others, near where the gravid mother was found.

Fair or foul???

[infernalis]

OK... an ethics question...

A garter hobbyist collects a gravid female, feeds her and successfully keeps her until she drops her offspring.

The female is then released where she was found.

The offspring are all fed at least once, the garter hobbyist keeps four offspring, and releases all others, near where the gravid mother was found.

Fair or foul???

that question has 2 answers:D

[KITKAT]

that question has 2 answers:D

and they are???

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Fair in my opinion!

Now, collecting a gravid female "just because" is not really very ethical at all. But- what about those females that we find that are abnormally patterned that just happen to be gravid at the time they are found?!

take my hypo from last year, for instance... she was gravid upon her capture.

And, the flame I found last weekend is not gravid, shes far too young, but at the same time... what would the opinion be if she had been? I still would have kept her! I find her to be quite a great find, because she can introduce a brand new bloodline and fresh genetics into the flame world. I will cross her with my flame male from Scott, for genetically fresh flames.

And as a last note, I am sure it's already been stated, but anyone in the hobby who is 100% against any form of WC animal needs to take a look at what they are saying. All of our snakes are descendants of WC snakes, and the ONLY way to GUARANTEE adding fresh genetics to your groups would be from the occasional WC snake. If you think you've found a new "morph", or a new line of an existing one, breeding out that WC individual is the only way to know. I know that you can get others from other breeders, but how will we be certain that they are not distantly related? I and many of us have seen the effects of inbreeding, especially in the Albino Checkered Garter snake.

[Stefan-A]

OK... an ethics question...

A garter hobbyist collects a gravid female, feeds her and successfully keeps her until she drops her offspring.

The female is then released where she was found.

The offspring are all fed at least once, the garter hobbyist keeps four offspring, and releases all others, near where the gravid mother was found.

Fair or foul???
Foul.

What are the positive aspects? The babies were given a meal that they could just as easily have gotten in the wild. That meal was given in exchange for a loss of four individuals and reduced chances for survival for both the female and the offspring, as indicated by the limited research that has been done on the survival of relocated and released snakes. Not to mention whatever impact the stress on the female might have had on the offspring, and who knows what impact the first meal could have had on the offspring's food preferences once released. And of course there's always the risk that a disease could be spread from captive snakes to wild ones.

It just seems to me that the drawbacks outweigh the benefits.

[GartersRock]

I agree with Shannon and Stefan on this one. I agree with Shannon in the sense that the benefits outweigh if the snake is unusual etc. and is needed for whatever reason. But if it is just a normal and you don't really know what you are doing and you just want some babies and to "watch the miracle of birth" then I agree with Stefan.

[Stefan-A]

And as a last note, I am sure it's already been stated, but anyone in the hobby who is 100% against any form of WC animal needs to take a look at what they are saying. All of our snakes are descendants of WC snakes, and the ONLY way to GUARANTEE adding fresh genetics to your groups would be from the occasional WC snake.
The occasional WC snake. Most haven't even been inbred long enough to justify WC for that reason. It's simply unnecessary.

But I would like to add that aberrant snakes tend to have poor chances of survival anyway.

[Garter_Gertie]

"genetically fresh flames"

Try saying THAT fast three times!

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

But I would like to add that aberrant snakes tend to have poor chances of survival anyway.

in the wild, most certainly.

My hypo stood out like a sore thumb in the grass.... when matched up to the rock pile she was darting for though... she actually matched the light sandy rocks quite well, and all the dark snakes tended to stick out!

Guess that's why she was doing so well :p

[zooplan]

OK... an ethics question...
Fair or foul???

Fair
but fairer if the offspring was fed twice or more times.
To take aberrant specimen could be worse, beacuse they might be the future of the population.
On the other hand are resessive alleles common within a genpool before they occur in phenotypes.
At this point we are back to the r and K-species, Stefan, but I can´t find the thread at the moment.

[person365]

Lately I have been reading a lot of posts regarding birthing & picking up gravid females either unintentionally or outright targeting gravid females simply to feel "included" in the breeding forum.

This is not to be taken so lightly, it is not some cute thing, "Awe I'm going to have babies" it is VERY serious stuff.

Or oh they all died, better luck next time:eek: SHOCKING!!!!

If someone is new to keeping snakes, that person should have the self control to keep one snake for a period of time, learn the hobby, advance skill and knowledge. Gain understanding of natures process.

When James brought this issue up once before, the topic went onto several tangents until the thread became a photo gallery of pretty red snakes, completely losing sight of the point at hand.

The miracle of birth is awesome, soul stirring and inspires joy in many people, but in reality would you want someone who just read "Md. Magazine" for the first time to deliver YOUR children?

Unless the resources/money/housing/space and proper food are at your disposal, intentionally gathering gravid females just so one can feel included in the "Baby buzz" is a disaster waiting to happen.

And then when the disaster does in fact happen, (all too often) it appears if there is no lesson learned, except that it's OK, just go grab another and try again.:(

Birthing and caring for neonate snakes is not this easy walk in the park many folks try to portray it to be. It is hard work and requires dedication and should not be taken lightly.

Disrupting the balance of nature to satisfy one selfish desires to play doctor in the delivery room is WRONG:mad:


SCREW YOU!

[Lulu Bennett]

SCREW YOU!

No matter what the discussion, there is never any need of that!
Either learn to take criticism and give a good argument back or just ignore!
Try growing up some!

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

SCREW YOU!


No matter what the discussion, there is never any need of that!
Either learn to take criticism and give a good argument back or just ignore!
Try growing up some!


agreed!! that was TOTALLY uncalled for. how childish.

[GartersRock]

To me. A response like that seems like you don't know how to take criticism... And obviously someone struck a chord...
It's very childish. If you have issues with what someone says. We can discuss them in a calm manner.

[person365]

No matter what the discussion, there is never any need of that!
Either learn to take criticism and give a good argument back or just ignore!
Try growing up some!


fine I am going for the argument!


i am new at this and i know zephyr personally and he is teaching me everything about garters and I even took care of some of his babies and exchanging shifts with his friend while he was in Utah. during this process I learn a lot garter care. I do not think that people should start threads like this when they do not know the situation. I spent time last year learning about garter care. and the basics owning a garter, but it was just to this year when began care owning and taking care of garters on my own because it took a lot of convincing because my parents were hesitant. Zephyr lives in the Neighborhood and is there when I need him.

[GartersRock]

There is nothing wrong with that... Why do you think we are talking directly to you when you aren't even doing anything that has to do with the discussion??

[person365]

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/urgent-care/3681-help-thamnophis-s-sirtalis-gave-birth-help-pleez-i-am-such-noob.html

[Lulu Bennett]

I think that to collect 1 or 2 snakes then fine, our collection of animals (not just snakes) all come from wild animals but when people take Gravid females...
if not knowlagable then risk loosing a good 20 or so babies that could have each have had 20 or so babies of their own. that is a good 400 snakes, just within 2/3 generations, that could be replenishing the population.
how do you think san fransisco garters became so rare? people being to gready and taking more and more of what they didn't need.
Don't get me wrong, i plan on getting my hands on a w/c Grass snakefor a few weeks purely for observation.
I will eventually be attending university studying Wildlife and zoo biology.
i wish to concentrate more on native reptiles so it will be used for study and then i will release it again.

[Lulu Bennett]

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/urgent-care/3681-help-thamnophis-s-sirtalis-gave-birth-help-pleez-i-am-such-noob.html

was this your first snake? how long had you had her?

[drache]

you know what
there's a few noobs ending up with them by accident turning up here during that time of the year
obviously they want to do the right thing, or else they wouldn't end up here
and you're not the only one
people here have no problems addressing persons directly - amazingly without harsh language
just that this was perceived as a trend, possibly because of some people's attitude toward the matter in another thread

[anji1971]

Even some longer term snake owners have and have kept gravid wild-caught females.
The topic of this thread is an opinion, and a discussion based on others' reaction to that opinion.
Some of us keep wild caught snakes, some don't believe in it at all.
There is never a need to tell someone off simply because you don't agree with them. Otherwise, very few of us would be able to keep talking to each other!
One of the things that sets this forum apart is the ability we've had to share our (sometimes vastly) differing opinions. Without being nasty.
If you don't like the way a thread is going, or you feel so strongly about the subject that you can't possibly be nice, then just don't post at all in that thread. That's the most cooperative solution I can think of.

[KITKAT]

Fair
but fairer if the offspring was fed twice or more times.
To take aberrant specimen could be worse, beacuse they might be the future of the population.
On the other hand are resessive alleles common within a genpool before they occur in phenotypes.
At this point we are back to the r and K-species, Stefan, but I can´t find the thread at the moment.

She is aberrant, but is like others in the area, so not the only one. AND, she would have been chopped to pieces with the neighbor's hoe if I had not rescued her, and would have met that end again if she returned to the site before the neighbor finished her pond.

Also, some of the babies ate right away, others took longer, and some were fed twice or more while I figured out which ones had the aberrant trait (develops with age).

At any rate, the purpose of my taking her was to save her life, and keep her out of harm's way until my neighbor finished replacing her pond liner. It just happened that she dropped her litter while that took place.

The four offspring, BTW, are my only WC garters. I don't normally take WC.

[person365]

was this your first snake? how long had you had her?

about 1 month

[Zephyr]

More or less to say, his snake was a "gift" from me. My friend found her curled near her pool heater; if she'd stuck around eventually she'd have been killed by her dad or the lawn truck. I had only the slightest impression she was gravid; turns out she was. I've seen the babies and his setup for them; all are eating well, a much higher success rate than even we "professionals" usually have. So, if the babies are doing well, mom's still alive, the babies are headed for good homes, who's to say his endeavors aren't a success and a good springboard into the deeper end of the hobby?

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

were not.... we are wondering why he felt the need to yell SCREW YOU at wayne for starting this thread.

[GartersRock]

Yes. Nobody said anything to him at all other then why you yelling at Wayne!
;)

[adamanteus]

SCREW YOU!


That's not the way we speak to each other here. Don't do it.

[reptileparadise]

Oi, thats actually the very first time I see an reaction like that on this forum!
It makes me wonder about the change of atmosphere here...

[Lulu Bennett]

Unfortunatly, i think, that is what comes with the forum growing.

[Stefan-A]

Well, I expected the forum to reach that level about a year and a half ago. I'm almost amazed we've lasted this long without personal attacks becoming "routine".

[drache]

look
we're all still here
as long as we make sure, new people learn that bad language is not welcome here . . .
my own people skills are inconsistent at times of stress
Person365 (sorry - don't know your name) - next time you feel attacked - please do a reality check - even something as simple as "hey - you talking to me, man?"

[infernalis]

Now here is where I am confused.

A gift from Kyle is far and removed from intentionally picking up a gravid female for the purpose of watching babies pop out.

The thread was never even discussing gifts from Kyle.

To be quite honest, the person who inspired me the most to write that post released the queen of all gravid females back to the wild, has sent more PM messages than I can count and has been working hard to become a better garter keeper. All the while with a positive outlook, and chin up attitude. I have gladly taken that person "under my wing" and will continue to offer all I can, for as long as it is requested.

So I am very sorry if somehow you feel that you or your situation had even entered my thoughts as I typed out the initial post.

[Lori P]

Ok... seriously? Another post like that from anyone should get them banned. Now for the first time I, too, feel very unpleasant... I hope this stops now.

[reptileparadise]

I don't want to continue off topic, but I've been thinking of opening a thread to ask how everyone would feel about the 'limits'.
Maybe we can agree something about limits before bans (temporary). Just to know how everyone feels like it. A bit of the Singapore idea (does anyone know the punishments in Singapore? Spitting a piece of chewing gum on the streets, 50 lashes with a whip)

[adamanteus]

I wouldn't (didn't) ban him for this outburst, but I did point out to him that we don't talk this way on here. Were it to continue I would have placed a short ban.... and so forth. I wouldn't ban anyone without fair warning.

[GartersRock]

I agree to not banning without a warning.

[Stefan-A]

I think bans should be the last resort, even when they are temporary. If someone is pissed off, then I'm sure a little outburst like that can be forgiven.

[anji1971]

Agreed.
Banning is for individuals who consistently cause trouble and insult others. We haven't had any of those kind yet.

[adamanteus]

I agree that bans should be a last resort, although I would have used a one day suspension quite willingly, if I had ever needed to (which I didn't). The only exception is the posting of pornography.. which results in an immediate and permanent ban.

[anji1971]

Well let's hope anyone into that kind of thing is on a completely other kind of forum!!:eek:

[GartersRock]

Thats good to here (about the pornography)

[adamanteus]

Well let's hope anyone into that kind of thing is on a completely other kind of forum!!:eek:

Actually, they're closer than you think. I filter out about a dozen would-be porn spammers every day. They don't get past the 'Moderation queue', but they're there.

[crzy_kevo]

When I first found my gravid female, I thought it would be cool to have some babies, so I decided to keep her and wait for the babies to arrive.

Unfortunately I discovered the hard way that birthing snakes is an undertaking better left to the experienced snake keeper and should never be attempted by anyone who does not have the experience to do so succesfully.....

Preggers would have in fact been better off if I had left her alone in the first place.

[Lexa]

Personally I don't agree with taking snakes from the wild at all. Please be aware that I don't judge anyone on the forum here for doing it - I really, really don't. What other people choose to do is not my business, and I don't stick my nose in as long as the creature is given a good home. It's just that I myself wouldn't do it. Taking a gravid snake from the wild is an extension of that.

Don't hurt me!

[GartersRock]

But you have to realize that if NO ONE took any snakes from the wild. Which is what you want... There wouldn't be any snakes in captivity to breed. And there are still many species that are not available captive bred. So don't make sweeping decisions like that until you fully consider the consiquences.

[infernalis]

First of all I want to thank Kevin, that took a lot of courage to post his own personal experience here.

This thread was intended to relay the message that not everyone should just casually scoop up a pregnant female for the sake of doing so.

With the emphasis on Casually

Birthing and rearing a whole clutch is to be taken seriously, that's all.

No personal flaming, no attack on any one individual, simply a frown as to how casually it seems to treated.

[adamanteus]

simply a frown as to how casually it seems to treated.

I like that. Bravo.:)

[infernalis]

Thank you James:D

[ssssnakeluvr]

I like that. Bravo.:)
what he said!!!! :D

[GartersRock]

Ditto what Wayne said!!! ;)

[Lexa]

But you have to realize that if NO ONE took any snakes from the wild. Which is what you want... There wouldn't be any snakes in captivity to breed. And there are still many species that are not available captive bred. So don't make sweeping decisions like that until you fully consider the consiquences.

I understand that, but I personally feel that taking creatures from the wild causes undue stress on the animal, and isn't the best thing for it. I know that I wouldn't have a snake if catching them from the wild didn't happen, but I was just saying that I personally wouldn't take an animal from the wild.

I'm not making a sweeping decision, I'm just stating my opinion. As I said, I'm not attempting to judge anybody, and I apologise if it seemed as if I were doing so.

[reptileparadise]

But you have to realize that if NO ONE took any snakes from the wild. Which is what you want... There wouldn't be any snakes in captivity to breed. And there are still many species that are not available captive bred. So don't make sweeping decisions like that until you fully consider the consiquences.

Yes, thats defenitly very true. But...People are still catching gravid females of species that are readily available. There's just no "need" to do so.
Or at least, thats how I see it.

[Lumpy]

Man, I step away from the forum for a few days and what the heck happened?

Lump

[adamanteus]

Greg... you should know better than to turn your back on the forum! Welcome back.:D

[Lumpy]

adamanteus,

I've been working on a boat side project and I thought that was frustrating!

It's cool to disagree. How boring life would be if everyone thought the same way. However, even through a medium like the internet that caters to anonymity, we should treat everyone with the same respect due as if they were sitting at our kitchen table. Some forums are free for alls, and then there are forums like this one that supports rules of civility. I only hang out at the latter.

I hope you're not stepping down as moderator because of of these indiscretions, although I do understand the new job and new responsibilites thing. You're an excellent moderator, and quite frankly more forgiving than most.

Lump

[adamanteus]

Thank you for the kind words, Greg.... you're my favourite boat owner.:D
But I am no longer standing down.:)

[Lumpy]

Good!

Lump

[infernalis]

Off we go to distraction land.........

[Bill]

You know wayne, I have to agree with you. specifically,the piont you make about someone getting a gravid female either wc or captive bred, having it lay eggs or live birth. What ever the case and then calling themselves a breeder. This does not make you a breeder in my book! Only when you have raised up young snakes ,or anything else for that matter, to matureity. successfully mated them and then raised up their young without messing them up to a point were they are viable healthy animals and mated them to prove this can you call yourself a breeder!

[infernalis]

Thank you so much for bringing us back on topic Bill.

[Garter_Gertie]

Oh, DK, you crack me up and I love you! Mr. Getting-Off-Topic-All-The-Time!

[Snake lover 3-25]

wow........ idk what else to say........ speachless......

[GartersRock]

About what Shanley?

[bulrush]

I agree. The only pet some people should have is a pet rock.

I cringe when I see or hear about inexperienced people who have any animal, snake, fish, dog or cat, and they have no intention of learning how to do things right. I hear my neighbor abuse his dog sometimes, constantly yelling at him, because the dog won't do what the owner wants. That's because the owner is ignorant and did not train the dog properly.

When I got my first dog as an adult, we took her to dog training class, and the teacher taught US how to relate to the dog. We got excellent results once we knew how to relate to the dog, how to keep commands simple and consistent. And so, after working with our dog every day, we had a well-trained dog.

[infernalis]

Yeah, I can relate.

How many people would actively seek out a pregnant dog, just to have a puppy???

[jitami]

Oh, too many Wayne... have you ever heard about some of the dog auctions that the puppy millers host? It's enough to make you sick.

[KITKAT]

Well... I long ago posted on this thread, giving more details about the gravid girl that I had a year ago.

No one replied, because of the explosive comment from one member... then the thread has twice gone off topic...

oh well... <shrug>:rolleyes:

[infernalis]

Well... I long ago posted on this thread, giving more details about the gravid girl that I had a year ago.

No one replied, because of the explosive comment from one member... then the thread has twice gone off topic...

oh well... <shrug>:rolleyes:


Ask again Kitkat, I'll do my best:D

[KITKAT]

Ask again Kitkat, I'll do my best:D

Originally Posted by zooplan http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/3683-disturbing-trend-really-disturbing-2.html#post69207)
Fair
but fairer if the offspring was fed twice or more times.
To take aberrant specimen could be worse, beacuse they might be the future of the population.
On the other hand are resessive alleles common within a genpool before they occur in phenotypes.
At this point we are back to the r and K-species, Stefan, but I can´t find the thread at the moment.
She is aberrant, but is like others in the area, so not the only one. AND, she would have been chopped to pieces with the neighbor's hoe if I had not rescued her, and would have met that end again if she returned to the site before the neighbor finished her pond.

Also, some of the babies ate right away, others took longer, and some were fed twice or more while I figured out which ones had the aberrant trait (develops with age).

At any rate, the purpose of my taking her was to save her life, and keep her out of harm's way until my neighbor finished replacing her pond liner. It just happened that she dropped her litter while that took place.

The four offspring, BTW, are my only WC garters. I don't normally take WC.

[bkhuff1s]

I'd just like to point out that there has to be a large enough CBB population available when the BUYERS want them. Mainly to people newer to this perticular species (I am no exception I clearly made the mistake). The amount of CBB garters and variety available to the market is CLEARLY underdeveloped (I'm going to work on that). The underdevelopment of that can only mean on thing. There hasn't been enough specimens taken from wild yes the WILD (that's where they all started at some point or another) to fufill societies 'want' for a given snake. For everyone that just cringes at the trend, I challenge you to purchase every WC of a choosen species that is underrepresented marketly to speciallize is the reproduction of, then match that price, which will drive down the desire to have these WC animals. For people such as BOB, he's only driving himself out of business. Eventually there'll be enough Puget's available in the market to where a CB breeder will match his prices. I'm sure this is going to get some...fun responses, but let me just say this. I have absolutely no problem releasing individuals out of each liter. I don't live near Puget territory though. However I wouldn't be beyond shipping them and having somone else release them, once I have colony that can handle BOBs activities. Just food for thought.

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by zooplan http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/3683-disturbing-trend-really-disturbing-2.html#post69207)
Fair
but fairer if the offspring was fed twice or more times.
To take aberrant specimen could be worse, beacuse they might be the future of the population.
On the other hand are resessive alleles common within a genpool before they occur in phenotypes.
At this point we are back to the r and K-species, Stefan, but I can´t find the thread at the moment.
She is aberrant, but is like others in the area, so not the only one. AND, she would have been chopped to pieces with the neighbor's hoe if I had not rescued her, and would have met that end again if she returned to the site before the neighbor finished her pond.

Also, some of the babies ate right away, others took longer, and some were fed twice or more while I figured out which ones had the aberrant trait (develops with age).

At any rate, the purpose of my taking her was to save her life, and keep her out of harm's way until my neighbor finished replacing her pond liner. It just happened that she dropped her litter while that took place.

The four offspring, BTW, are my only WC garters. I don't normally take WC.

As I try to sort through this, I guess you are wondering if what you did was a good thing or not?

Kitkat, what you did deserves a medal. You saved that snake from certain doom, as well as saved the babies from the same fate.

That is far removed from someone just going out and targeting a gravid female to be collected for any reason:D

That would be a sucessful rescue in anyones eyes........:D

Well done, kudos to you and if similar circumstances should ever arise, DO IT AGAIN!!

[GartersRock]

I disagree with the aberrant snake comment.

They have less a chance of survival. And I personally think it would be better to keep that aberrant color alive in the CB circle then in the wild (where once again, they have less a chance of survival)
What are others thoughts on this?

[infernalis]

Brightly coloured snakes are more likely to become bird food.

An albino garter for instance has no camouflage:(

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Most aberrant snakes will never make it. But... that really depends on the type of aberrancy we are talking about here, as well as their location in relation to their color pattern. As well as pure, unguided luck and how smart the snake is as far as staying hidden and defending itself. Erythristic garters often do well and repopulate in areas where the soil is a reddish brown... and i beleive my hypo survived as long as she did because the rock pile she was making a mad dash for was a very light color, just like her. Sitting out in the grass however, she may as well have been an albino! I saw her from 20 feet away!

[ssssnakeluvr]

I believe aberrant snakes such as albinos don't have the natural camouflage colors that protect them from predators....so they have a greater chance of getting caught by predators. however, adult albinos and aberrants have been found....when I was in 5th grade (many moons ago!!!) I went to an overnight campout birthday party. we went swimming by a river in my hometown in Idaho. we found 2 adult wandering garter snakes, one was pure white...I was young and don't remember if the eyes were red or normal, I think they were normal....I think it was leucistic, pure white, no pattern. it was an adult. occasional aberrant can make it, but not very often.

[KITKAT]

As I try to sort through this, I guess you are wondering if what you did was a good thing or not?

Kitkat, what you did deserves a medal. You saved that snake from certain doom, as well as saved the babies from the same fate.

That is far removed from someone just going out and targeting a gravid female to be collected for any reason:D

That would be a sucessful rescue in anyones eyes........:D

Well done, kudos to you and if similar circumstances should ever arise, DO IT AGAIN!!

Well... I will probably and unfortunately have the opportunity again. :( My neighbor really hates snakes, and won't listen to me when I explain that if you have a goldfish pond with a waterfall full of cracks and crevices, you are DRAWING them.

And as for the rescue, I felt it was not a PURE rescue, since I did keep and still have four of the babies.

On the aberrant comment, I'll add that these are not albinos or anery, or anything like that. We just have a local gene pool that produces bright orange side stripes, and I have seen this in about 25% of the population, with another 25% having fainter orange or pink in their laterals... so perhaps not a true aberrant...:o

[ssssnakeluvr]

On the aberrant comment, I'll add that these are not albinos or anery, or anything like that. We just have a local gene pool that produces bright orange side stripes, and I have seen this in about 25% of the population, with another 25% having fainter orange or pink in their laterals... so perhaps not a true aberrant...:o
well, might not be aberrant, but not odd enough to stand out for predators....a lot of times in nature, the bright colors (like red) are a warning to others to leave them alone...could be something along that line....

[bkhuff1s]

I just wanted to say how hypocritical this conversation seems to be turning. It seems that what I'm hearing is it isn't ok to take snakes out of the wild but it is ok to take rare color colorations out. I'd just like to point out the fact that maybe just MAYBE having those snakes the pop out provides food for ANOTHER ANIMAL. Did anyone think that by taking all the rarely colored animals out of the wild that it'll produce the side effect of perhaps not feeding a preditor animal that would be looking for something that pops out at them. Furthermore, has anyone considered the fact that people eat snakes. Which isn't a common practice anymore. Perhaps when we take a few out of the wild it's like us catching them for food. Only the animal that blends in best survives. Survival of the fittest. Granted I don't think taking an endangered animal out of the wild is right either.

[infernalis]

Excellent observation Bryan.

On that note, however tempted I may have been, the hawks and owls out back are respected equally as the snakes are.

Ah too vague, I would never shoot a predator just because it eats snakes.

And it does seem to have wandered down a different path than "Casually" snagging a gravid female for the sole purpose of participating in a breeding forum.

Or folks like you know who, scooping up countless animals for profit.

[GartersRock]

Interesting oberservation.
I have no problem with people taking anything (unless it's protected) out of the wild for breeding or pets. If they take GREAT consideration to what they are doing!
And they are not taking countless amounts to resale.

You know who... :p

[Stefan-A]

If they take GREAT consideration to what they are doing!
Well, who does? Who can?

[bkhuff1s]

FYI I don't approve of that whole taking countless out for the purpose of reselling them. I do approve of taking a base group out to provide a colony and occasionally releasing a few and taking a few more out of the wild to provide different genes. That's my 2 cents

[GartersRock]

Yes Stefan. It's impossible for anyone to decide just what that means. But carelessness. I think is obvious.

[Stefan-A]

Yes Stefan. It's impossible for anyone to decide just what that means. But carelessness. I think is obvious.
Certain cases of carelessness may be obvious to most, but there's always going to be a very wide grey zone.

At least until somebody makes it quantifiable.

[GartersRock]

Yep. Pretty much. When it comes to that grey zone. There will always be disagreement.

[infernalis]

That's my 2 cents

That's the great thing about Tham.com Bryan, 2 cents is always welcome.

[snakeman]

Releasing snakes back into the wild is not a good thing.especially if they are in captivity for a long period of time.

[GartersRock]

I agree. But I don't feel very to strongly about it. I mean, it doesn't bother me really when people do it.

[infernalis]

Releasing snakes back into the wild is not a good thing.especially if they are in captivity for a long period of time.

Please elaborate, since this thread was intended to invoke heavy thought:D

[GartersRock]

Heavy thoughts... Me like!

[dashnu]

I have released ALL but two of my WC snakes into the wild.. Not because I thought it was good or bad but because the native species laws suck up here.. I probably broke the law twice who knows.. I cant even get a possesion permit WTF!

I have seen the snakes I released a few times now and they seem to be doing just fine. I do know there are arguments about health issues being introduced into the wild.

Double sided sword for me really :(

[dashnu]

I am in contact with a guy from the Maine Gov......

"" As you mentioned below, our state herp laws certainly have some inconsistencies. While it is illegal to posses a live, native reptile, there are no regulations regarding dead ones provided they are not used commercially or are not listed as state endangered or threatened ""

I have been back and forth with this guy a lot lately....

In other words I can kill them dry them out and hang them on my wall legally but not keep them live... Go ****ING figure..

They are in process of rewriting the code however this takes time....

[bkhuff1s]

Just to clarify what I meant was that I would release a few new borns back into the wild for every one I would take out of the wild. Not keep it for 7 years and then reintroduce.

[GartersRock]

That sucks Brett...

[infernalis]

I myself have raised up several litters, released them as yearling's, and encountered several well after the fact.

However all specimens were fed wild caught food items taken from the same property as they would have been born on had I not interfered.

[Garter_Gertie]

I have released ALL but two of my WC snakes into the wild.. Not because I thought it was good or bad but because the native species laws suck up here.. I probably broke the law twice who knows.. I cant even get a possesion permit WTF!

I have seen the snakes I released a few times now and they seem to be doing just fine. I do know there are arguments about health issues being introduced into the wild.

Double sided sword for me really :(


Well... You've broken the law at *least* three times... the two WC you've not released and at least one WC you did. Any WC in addition to one that you've kept, that's another/more infraction(s).

Why is it you cannot get a permit?

More so, why do you continue to justify breaking the law?

[dashnu]

Well... You've broken the law at *least* three times... the two WC you've not released and at least one WC you did. Any WC in addition to one that you've kept, that's another/more infraction(s).

Why is it you cannot get a permit?

They are not giving them out for personal possesion.



More so, why do you continue to justify breaking the law

nowhere in my post do i "justify" it, again read before you write. Would you prefer I stuck a knife through their heads and hung them to my wall? Thats legal. Maybe just letting them go was the best decision. Or just maybe just maybe the laws are a bit ****ed. ?!

[snakeman]

Most captive snakes when released in the wild will wonder aimlessly in circles until they eventually starve and die.They get lost it is well documented in larger snakes.Not to sure about smaller snakes that have a lot smaller ranges.Disease is the main concern for not releasing captive snakes.I ahve seen almost a entire spotted turtle population wiped out because somebody I knew released captives there.

[infernalis]

Thank you, That is interesting data. Real food for thought.

[Hornets23]

Would this be as relevant if he returned the snakes to where he got them? They should know the territory and unless they were introduced to disease which is probably unlikely, it doesn't seem so bad in this case.

[Garter_Gertie]

They are not giving them out for personal possesion.

Have you thougth about contacting a university herp department or the DNR and asking if there are any studies being done that you could help with? As a volunteer working on a study you'd fall under thier auspices and any permit is usually extended to those helping.



nowhere in my post do i "justify" it, again read before you write. Would you prefer I stuck a knife through their heads and hung them to my wall? Thats legal. Maybe just letting them go was the best decision. Or just maybe just maybe the laws are a bit ****ed. ?!

I used the word "justify" because for some reason even though you know and admit you're breaking the law you continue to. Somehow you're justifying, rationalizing?, this is okay.

No, I would not prefer you kill them. I'm assuming that also would be illegal since there's no specific mention of it in what you wrote, but only the keeping of skins (and hides?).

Have you found out why the law is the way it is? The state is probabaly trying to protect their natural resources - and good for them. Are all snakes 'endangered' or 'threatened'? Ask about their status. And maybe volunteer to do a species survey around your land, say in a square mile, to see what the status is of whatever species you choose.

If you have good records and pertinent information to give to the state I'd think that would get you farther with them than telling them their laws are "****ed."

Also, I'd think it would show them you're a conservationist and wish to help them...

It's worth a try.

[Garter_Gertie]

Here's something else I just thought of. Find out when that law came on the books and *why.*

MN used to have a similar law - a bounty - on rattlesnakes. It's since been removed due to it being so archaic and rattlers are now, in fact, endangered. Not to mention there have been no fatal bites [to farmers, or anyone else for that matter] in the last 120 years or so.

Anyway, possibly that's the reason or something similar Maine still has that law. That should be fairly easy to research and assist in getting the law changed.

[GartersRock]

I myself have raised up several litters, released them as yearling's, and encountered several well after the fact.

However all specimens were fed wild caught food items taken from the same property as they would have been born on had I not interfered.

If done. This to me is very unlikely to be harmful. :)
Wild caught food (to minimize the disease part), released while still young, same spot. Small local species.

[dashnu]

Have you thougth about contacting a university herp department or the DNR and asking if there are any studies being done that you could help with? As a volunteer working on a study you'd fall under thier auspices and any permit is usually extended to those helping.




I used the word "justify" because for some reason even though you know and admit you're breaking the law you continue to. Somehow you're justifying, rationalizing?, this is okay.

No, I would not prefer you kill them. I'm assuming that also would be illegal since there's no specific mention of it in what you wrote, but only the keeping of skins (and hides?).

Have you found out why the law is the way it is? The state is probabaly trying to protect their natural resources - and good for them. Are all snakes 'endangered' or 'threatened'? Ask about their status. And maybe volunteer to do a species survey around your land, say in a square mile, to see what the status is of whatever species you choose.

If you have good records and pertinent information to give to the state I'd think that would get you farther with them than telling them their laws are "****ed."

Also, I'd think it would show them you're a conservationist and wish to help them...

It's worth a try.

Sorry Gertie, went off the deep end a bit in my last post, these are all good idea and I will take them into consideration.

-cheers

[Garter_Gertie]

Eh. We all go off the deep end when frustrated, irritated, angry. We're all only human. I appreciate your apology. That was very nice of you. Thanks!

I'm with you 100%; just against you breaking the law as there are reasons laws are in place. That doesn't mean that laws shouldn't be changed when they're no longer valid.

That's just me.

But, what if you DID get law(s) changed? What if you HAD the info to back you? What if you DID lobby for new laws? Just think how proud you'd be.

Good luck. Maybe we'll read about you in the papers!

[infernalis]

I guess this would be the best place to tell the story (again) My very first ever "Breeding" occurred when 2 snakes of opposite gender were placed in the same tank by accident.

Several months after these two were placed together, well nature happened:eek: and I felt it was a moral obligation to do the right thing.

The litter was delivered well out of season, so we had little choice but to ensure the best possible outcome for the babies.

Releasing them as neonates would have certainly killed them rather quickly, so they were fed and raised until the appropriate time.

The litter was kept in an enclosure isolated from any other animals, fed daily and they all thrived and grew up into fine looking juveniles.

I also felt strongly about getting them back into the wild before any one of them reached maturity as to prevent any sibling copulations.

They were all released on the same 40 acre lot that the mother and father was found, that was almost 2 years ago.

And even though we have spotted and even photographed specimens from that same brood since then, I do often wonder how the rest of them have faired in the wild.

However, I still feel very strongly that it would not be in the animals best interest to go pick up a gravid female and do it again just for the sake of doing it.

If there was an imminent danger present to the mother or the litter, primarily from humans, as a rescuer, It would be compelling to remove the mother from said danger.

But as Bryan has pointed out, if it was wild predation that one was attempting to save the snake from, it would be interfering with the natural course of life.

It still makes me cringe to see a hawk with a snake hanging from it's mouth, but I would never in a million years terminate the hawk just for having a natural meal, nor chop down it's nesting tree just to spare the snake from getting eaten.

[KITKAT]

Would this be as relevant if he returned the snakes to where he got them? They should know the territory and unless they were introduced to disease which is probably unlikely, it doesn't seem so bad in this case.

The laws in Ohio regarding re-release make perfect sense.

1. You must release within thirty days.

2. The herp you are releasing must not have had contact with any other herp during that period of captivity.

I have bent that rule with the release of the babies and their mother, since obviously the babies CAME from the mother and would not have picked up a non-native disease or parasite from her.