de-worming ??? [Archive] - Garter Snake Forum

mikm

01-23-2007, 11:37 AM

I may have spoken a little too soon unfortunately ... one of my Pugets seemed a little *odd* yesterday morning. Almost like she was trying to start a shed, rubbing the side of her head only she had not been *blue*. Lucky for me this was pretty obvious as the other two were in shed. I watched her for a moment and she appeared to me to be *drooling* holding her mouth ever so slightly agape. I took her out to get a better look ... I could find nothing overly apparent that was causing her discomfort. The inside color of her looked good perhaps slightly darker pink but nothing else ... no sores, scrapes, etc. The saliva from the side of her mouth was sticky but appeared to me to be saliva. I felt strongly that she was trying to vomit but I was not totally sure as I considered that maybe I was applying a mammalian trait to a reptile. I mean I know/have seen snakes regurg but ... Anyway, I put her in a rubbermaid container w/some paper towels for the day. When I returned from work she looked fine and she had deposited something :eek: . Not sure which end *it* came out of but it sure looked different to me however there wasn't any terrible odor as with a food regurg ... I spread *it* out some to investigate and snapped some pics. Looks like worms to me and more then one kind ??? I am very hands on in regards to any animals health issues. I have found stuff on the net in regards to this issue as it's new to me however I want a trusted source ...

So my question(s) ...

_What kind of worms might they be ??

_What is the recommended treatment for these in regards to Garters ??

I do intend to de-worm all of the Pugets. Outwardly they all appear 100% healthy and active. I would hate to lose any of these as when I had this girl out her blue is quite stunning ... her belly is such a beautiful, deep blue as well ... I'll have to take more detailed pics ...

thank you all very much for any info you choose to share !!!
marian

suzoo

01-23-2007, 12:11 PM

mikm

01-23-2007, 12:32 PM

thank you very much ... I did not keep the worms unfortunatley but I'm sure I can get more :eek: ...

Beautifylgirl

01-23-2007, 01:29 PM

Looks like tapeworm to me, I would use Praziquantel. It is dosed by weight, so personally I would take her to the Vet, have her weighed, and dosed there. Take the worms with. They usually like that :) I am not an expert though, just 1 opinion. Hope I helped.

Yup those are tapeworms.. gross little buggers.

Question though. I do work at a vet and tapeworms (per my information) are normally contracted due to fleas(injesting) or eating rodents (fleas on the rodents). The fleas carry the tapeworm egg ( as far as I know) on their body. Exactly how would a snake come in contact with tapeworms.
Would they be in an enviornment that has fleas and they accidently injested one or ??
I'm just curious.

Brittany

mikm

01-23-2007, 01:46 PM

hello Brittany and thank you very much for your post ... no, absolutely no fleas at my place ... you bring up a very interesting point though ... Are tapeworms a common parasite for WC Garters ??

Many years ago I de-wormed a young cat and was forewarned by the vet on what to expect when he passed the mama' motherload tapeworm :eek: ... I do not remember which *end* the mama came out but I had the cat in the bathtub when he lost it. Out of curiousity I rinsed it off to check it out more closely. It did look like something out of a horror movie.

I recall the little *white rice* looking tapeworm babies that were passed in the cats poop. I assume the garters would be passing them as well ??

Beautifylgirl

01-23-2007, 02:10 PM

About which end *it* came out of. Cat's and Dogs normally pass these in the feces or around the anal area. I'm not sure about Snakes. Does anyone know??

Cazador

01-23-2007, 02:52 PM

Hi Marian,
Roy is right about the praziquantel being used for tapeworms, and you've got a nasty case of tapeworms, for sure! I don't know about the flea connection, but they're commonly contracted when snakes eat infested mammals. You've probably got a wild-caught snake in your possession, as somebody suggested earlier. PLEASE contact "Bob," and let him know that your snake has tapeworms. Send the picture, if you choose, but please contact him. He's either untintentionally or negligently selling "problem" animals, and he keeps telling everybody that it's an isolated incident. I think he deserves to know that these aren't "isolated" instances. Maybe it will help to convince him to treat his snakes (for their sakes and for the sake of his customers).

Now, I don't have my reference books with me, but I'll give you more info when I get home, tonight. If you can, weigh your snakes. They have to be weighed at around 0.1 oz or less, if possible, in order to calculate a proper doseage.

I really don't like the look of the mouth/gums in that picture, either. I'd bet my last nickel that your snake is also developing mouth rot (infectious stomatitis). This swelling of the gums that parts the lips, along with the thick exudate (like saliva) represent the early stages of the disorder. If it progresses, the thick exudate will become hardened, like cheese, and start to seal the mouth shut. It often leads to pneumonia, as well, so the situation is very serious. Infectious stomatitis is also very infectious, so all of your snakes should probably be separated... quarantined from each other. The early, mild stages can be treated at home, but I suspect they've got more problems than just these. Therefore, a vet visit might be prudent anyway. That's what I'm recommending. You'll have to take a fresh fecal sample with you, so the vet can do a fecal float and some microscopy work.

Finally, be sure to wash your hands thoroughly. I use betadine when dealing with pathogens, but if you don't have any available, use antibiotic soap; then a mild bleach solution; then soap again. You don't want to ingest any tapeworm eggs and become a host, yourself.

If you decide to treat them at home, please post the weights for all of your snakes. Since they've been housed together, they should be all be treated.

Rick

mikm

01-23-2007, 07:12 PM

thanks VERY much to all ... that mouth pic is not an accurate representation of her mouth color ... I snapped the pic in very poor light w/a flash, & she was super stressed out at being restrained in the sink !She has never held her mouth agape in that fashion before or since then ...

_I have seen mouth rot (but not on a garter) and I believe her mouth is okay and much the same color as any garter. The pic was supposed to represent the mouth gape as I witnessed it. I surely will check all of their mouths more closely this weekend though, thanks !!

_By treating *all* you mean the Pugets right ??? The Reds are not housed or physically connected to the Pugets in any way ... all garters have their own, individual feeding rubbermaid containers ...

I'm fairly well versed in animal medical issues in general just not so much reptiles and if you narrow that select interest down to garters ... you guys are great to share all of your experience !!!

much thanks,
marian

abcat1993

01-23-2007, 08:19 PM

Uhh, that's disgusting. Post a warning next time please :D

suzoo

01-23-2007, 08:26 PM

There are two types of tape worm that I have dealt with at the Vet.s office. Common in dogs and cats. One is from fleas, The other is from eating infected hosts (mice, rats, ect.). Since snakes don't carry fleas, we can assume its the other type.
Also, the nasty little buggars can come out either "end" of infected animals. Usually they come out the rear, but when the stomache is full of them, like Marian's poor snake, they are regurgitated, not just by snakes, but dogs and cats as well.

Roy??? Rick?

Suzoo

ssssnakeluvr

01-23-2007, 09:51 PM

I'd say it looks like tapeworms. If it is segmented then it's definitely tapes. It looks like some feces there (the dried powder looking stuff). If that is, then its good they came out the back end...just good that they came out. Best thing to do is take some fresh feces to a vet and have a fecal float done for eggs (if they aren't tapes). Tapes pass eggs in little segments that look kinda like rice, so if you see something like that, get them to the vet to be id'd. Tapeworms do have to go thru in intermediate host....i.e. fleas...it's possible ot get from eating a mouse with fleas.

GarterGuy

01-24-2007, 12:03 AM

Hi....this is Roy. LOL :D Hi have to agree with everyone else here, your snakes have tape worms. As far as where they came from.....there are LOTS of different tape worms and actually they can come from other prey species, like fish and amphibians....they're not only found in warm blooded prey. As far as the treatment, I'd probably be working with a vet if you're not real comfortable dosing the animals or getting the meds. Looking through "Understanding Reptile Parasites : A Basic Manual for Herpetoculturists & Veternarians", they also recomend using Droncit (just a commercial name for praziquantel) at a dosage of 5mg/Kg orally or injected. They also recomend to treat the animals again after two weeks, to make sure you get them all. Don't be surprised if after you treat them that you see lots of worms coming out......that'll happen as they're being killed. I would definitely treat all the "Pugets" that you have....more than likely, if one has it the others may as well. As far as the gaping and mouth wiping....this sounds a lot like what two of mine did. I wasn't able to totally diagnose what was causing it, but they eventually died from some unknown ailment. I almost wonder if it's not some other bacterial infection of some type or another. I would also seperate them all if you can. It'd be best for telling how they are doing and to keep the ones that are doing well, from picking up anything from the possibly sick ones. Well I wish you the best with your snakes and as Rick (aka: Cazador) had said, I'd definitely contact "Bob". I don't know if it'll really help.....I've heard nothing since contacting him about loosing my three snakes.

Good luck.......Roy

mikm

01-24-2007, 08:46 AM

abcat1993 _sorry to have offended you.

don _fantastic, thank you ! three fecal floats will be "on order" ;))

roy _ I ordered that book from Amazon yesterday :) I am hoping that there is not a bacterial infection as that would be much more difficult than treating for worms. IMO of all of the possibilities tapeworms sure look bad but I feel it's a work-able problem. I have seperated them as I need to do some snake poop snoopin', lol ... thanks ;) for supplying the dosage of praziquantel ... I will collect and submit fecal samples for floats to be done at the vets after final follow up de-worming treatment ...

rick _I am going to contact *bob* ... thanks for making the human contamination point ... I did not touch any of this with my bare hands and the container she was in is still soaking in Nolvasan ! I am going to take this one step at a time and not assume the worst. All of the Pugets eat well, shed clean and consistently and move about as normal, (with the exception of that 5 minute period I observed that started this thread.) No external parasites observed and I have re-checked many times. In fact the *worm* snake looks totally fine now, mouth closed, not lethargic at all, actually she's been stalking her water container looking for fish. This particular sub-species is very alert and watches what is going on outside of their immediate environment. My plan of action is as follows ...

_ Treat all for tapeworms.
_ After the treament period, I will have fecal floats done for each snake.

I will have the fecal floats done by vet staff and will treat them at home. I have a personal friend who is an MD and she and her sons have some large boas and a monitor or two ... I also have access to a U of PENN vet that's not a reptile vet in her practice but we're friends and she does help me out as well. In my area the *exotic* vets are established avian vets though they see all/any *exotics* their knowledge pertaining to a garter appears to be limited and they have said so.

thanks to all who expressed their concerns and shared their knowledge !
marian

Cazador

01-24-2007, 03:28 PM

Hi Marian,
The phone service in my neighborhood went out yesterday and still isn't fixed, but it looks like you got some good advice. Thanks, Roy, for supplying the praziquantel (Droncit) dose. That was really worrying me last night.

The part that concerned me about your snakes mouth was the exudate and that slight gap between the "lips." I heard what you said about them looking normal today, but it never hurts to keep a good eye on them. That thick exudate is a warning sign! Here's what to look for... discoloration, progressively thickening exudate, continued swelling of the gums, and later on an inability to grasp and swallow prey. One of my blue snakes from "Bob" developed mouth rot, and the advanced stages can only be treated by a vet who administers subcutaneous medication. Quarantine is a good idea, "just in case" because reptiles don't normally show signs of a problem until it is fairly significant.
Rick

P.S. My internet access will be limited until the phone company can repair whatever the problem is.

mikm

01-24-2007, 04:46 PM

hey rick ... I did a little more research on mouth rot and I will be checking all of them at length for- ... well "-ever" probably, lol ... I do not routinely handle my snakes so these are now dreading seeing me approach their enclosure ! Usually when any of either brood is hungry they *follow* me around the house :)

all is well here ... much thanks for your help & concerns !
marian

Cazador

01-24-2007, 07:22 PM

It's really a shame that the primary supply of these blue ordinoides are in such poor shape. I think that the stress of shipment and acclimating to their new surroundings is impairing their immune system and allowing the parasites to overwhelm them. They generally appear fine at first, but soon start to show signs of trouble. I've found mine to be very personable and willing to be held, though.

KITKAT

01-24-2007, 09:06 PM

Yup those are tapeworms.. gross little buggers.

Question though. I do work at a vet and tapeworms (per my information) are normally contracted due to fleas(injesting) or eating rodents (fleas on the rodents). The fleas carry the tapeworm egg ( as far as I know) on their body. Exactly how would a snake come in contact with tapeworms.
Would they be in an enviornment that has fleas and they accidently injested one or ??
I'm just curious.

Brittany

I don't know the answer to Brittany's question, but this discussion does make me wonder if snake mites can carry tapeworms...:confused:

GarterGuy

01-25-2007, 09:34 AM

I don't know the answer to Brittany's question, but this discussion does make me wonder if snake mites can carry tapeworms...:confused:

Hmmmmm.....you know I've never heard that before, but since I know fleas can carry tapeworms to dogs and cats (as has been stated above), it makes me wonder? I've only ever heard of tapeworms being introduced to snakes through infected prey????

mikm

01-25-2007, 09:41 AM

rick _ do you still have any Pugets ??? I have been researching *mouth rot* for days now to get a better understanding of it and the implications, just in case. After conferring with some friends I have an appointment for tomorrow morning with a recommended vet that will work with me. I am taking all three Pugets and hopefully some fecal samples. I have a treatment plan in my head and hopefully she agrees or has other ideas !
I intend to post the results of my visit ...

enjoy your day !
marian

Cazador

01-25-2007, 12:57 PM

Hi Marian,
I still have two of the blue adults (1.1). They're brumating right now and in good shape, but it wasn't easy getting them to that point. I had to quarantine them each individually and treat them for roundworms and amoeba/protozoa. I completed treatment for the roundworms before I began treatment for the amoeba and protists, so it took a long time. I don't know if this was necessary, though. If you get the chance, would you mind asking your vet if flagyl and metronidazole (Panacur) can be given simultaneously? It would have sure sped things up.

Also, if you count the dorsal scales of your snakes, you'll probably find 17, like mine. This is a key feature that distinguishes T. ordinoides from T.s. pickeringii. T. ordinoides have 17 dorsal scale rows, and T. sirtalis spp. have 19. It can be easier to do this count from pictures if your snake starts to get a little squirmy. I'm eager to hear what you learn from your scale count and from the vet. Best regards,

Rick

mikm

01-25-2007, 01:56 PM

hello Rick ... will do .. you mean Fenbendazole and metronidazole, right ??? I sure will *ask* as my case may be similar ... These are similar but the Panacur handles worms as well, right ?? Baytril would be my antibiotic of choice ... I have not used it with reptiles but it I have found it to be very effective !

Cazador

01-25-2007, 03:54 PM

Actually, the three meds are probably the most commonly given (Flagyl, fenbendazole, and metronidazole), and all are very effective. Maybe ask about all three at once, or different combinations. I was asking about Flagyl & metronidazole because protists/amoeba and roundworms are commonly contracted by feeding fish, which is often a large part of the diet of garter snake diets.

KITKAT

01-29-2007, 10:34 PM

Cazador

01-30-2007, 01:10 AM

Thanks Kitkat. I should have said metronidazole (Flagyl), fenbendazole (Panacur), and praziquantel (Droncit) :o. It's even more ironic because the conversation was about using praziquantel (the one I left out) to treat tapeworms.
Rick

mikm

01-30-2007, 04:52 AM

hey there ... I think I may be able to get an answer to this ! I suspect the de-wormers dispensed together might be too much. The vet did say that she did not feel comfortable in administering more then one shot. She said it stings, some have a reaction (swelling) at the injection site & she felt it was too much stress on a small animal. I'm guessing here but perhaps one could dispense all of the meds in question but at different times of the day ... Will update when I have info ...

enjoy your day,
marian

Cazador

01-30-2007, 08:45 AM

The nice thing about those three meds is that they can all be given orally (even mixed with food) to cause less stress :).

ConcinusMan

04-12-2010, 11:36 PM

I know it's a old thread, but I will revive it and add my own worm experience to this thread.

Yes it's true that dogs get tapeworm eggs from ingesting fleas. segments of an adult tapeworm come out of the dogs rear. those pieces contain eggs which are ingested by adult fleas in the carpet/bedding.

Snakes get tapeworms too, but there are many species of tape worms. Some live in frogs and fish, some live in rodent food, and some can even be contracted by eating earthworms.

One WC snake passed a dead tapeworm today. looks like dental floss, is pointed at the head end, looks like tape or floss from there on. The segmented thing, where pieces break off and the worm lives, doesn't always apply. Only mature adult worms do that. Mine passed a dead tapeworm, but it seems whole, head to endless tape. No segments, and perhaps immature.

I want to treat 3 snakes for worms just in case. I want to know which drug to use, and if it's available OTC. I know the drug for tapeworm might be different from other worms. Maybe it will take 2 drugs, and several treatments.

I don't have garter-friendly vets. They are prevented by law in my state, from treating garter snakes of any kind and there are few exceptions.

But I know that my dog vet would let me get an accurate weight of the animal and sell me OTC deworming drugs-AND advice based on the species- animal officially unseen.;)

So, I'm asking the garter community, what drug or drugs do I need for fish/frog/worm eating T.s. concinnus? I knew it was not unusual but these are the first WC snakes I've seen in 25 years that have a perceivable parasite problem. I don't know which snake passed the worm, but I want to treat all 3 adults that have been in quarantine together.

They are healthy, gaining weight, and feeding well.

guidofatherof5

04-13-2010, 05:20 AM

One of mine had hookworms and was treated with Panacur.
Not sure if that applies to tapeworms.
Best of luck.

ConcinusMan

04-13-2010, 07:07 PM

Somebody advise please? Tapeworms only for now. I need to know what to give them that is safe in case of gravid females.

guidofatherof5

04-13-2010, 07:44 PM

Somebody advise please? Tapeworms only for now. I need to know what to give them that is safe in case of gravid females.

This treats a wide range of parasites, even some types of tapeworms.
I must have misunderstood what you were asking for. Here's a link to Panacure http://www.3dchem.com/moremolecules.asp?ID=322&othername=Panacur (http://www.3dchem.com/moremolecules.asp?ID=322&othername=Panacur)
I hope you find what you're looking for.
A Vet. would know best the course of treatment after the parasite/s has been identified.

ConcinusMan

04-14-2010, 10:40 AM

Thanks for the link. A vet is out of the question. They won't even do lab work or see the animal if they know it's a garter. But, like I said, I can tell my vet in private what I need the panacure for and he might be willing to advise a course of action and sell me the drugs.

saam

04-19-2010, 05:45 PM

Hi Guys,
is it safe to use panacur on pregnant garter Snakes??

ConcinusMan

04-20-2010, 01:12 AM

That's what I wanted to know. But technically, garters do not get pregnant. She is only holding eggs until they are ready to hatch so we call it "gravid" There is no direct connection to the mother for nutrients. There is only gas exchange so I would think it's safe once the eggs have been fertilized. Anything that doesn't interfere with gas exchange or cause the mother to abort would be safe I would think. In theory you could actually put fatal amounts of poison in the mothers bloodstream but the babies in their eggs would be safe as long as they were to hatch before the mother died, since their blood and nutrients are separate from the mothers.