Thamnophis Sirtalis Sirtalis????

[suzoo]

Hi All. I have a question. I live in Southern Missouri, and my Garter's parents were wild caught here. I am not very familiar with all the different sub-species, and thought I had Eastern Gartersnakes, (Thamnophis Sirtalis Sirtalis). However, I saw a Plains (Thamnophis Radix Radix) that looked like my 2 year old,"Gloria". So my question is, will you please look at my photos and tell me what species you think I have? I have really come to value all of your opinions!! Thanks SO much,
Suzoo :D

[GarterGuy]

Looks like T.r.radix to me. No T.s.sirtalis has the dark spots below the side stripe like your snakes have. That's a very good sign that you've got Plains garters Thamnophis radix radix. Also it looks like the side stripe is up higher on the body.....T.radix has the side stripe on the 3-4th scale, while T.sirtalis has it at the 2-3rd scale. Something else you can check are the number of scales......T.radix has 21 while T.sirtalis has 19. For my money, from the pics you've got up.......I'd say T.radix and considering the area they came from I'd say T.r.radix and not T.r.haydeni (which some people don't even consider a real subspecies anyways).

[abcat1993]

I thought butler's garters had them on the 3-4th scales? I'm assuming that they both have them on the 3-4th scales.

[Stefan-A]

I thought butler's garters had them on the 3-4th scales? I'm assuming that they both have them on the 3-4th scales.
Butler's has, quote, "lateral stripe involving rows 2, 3, and the lower edge of 4 (at least anteriorly)"

I think only radix and the ribbon snakes have a row 3 and 4 stripe, but of course I could be wrong.

[suzoo]

Looks like T.r.radix to me. No T.s.sirtalis has the dark spots below the side stripe like your snakes have. That's a very good sign that you've got Plains garters Thamnophis radix radix. Also it looks like the side stripe is up higher on the body.....T.radix has the side stripe on the 3-4th scale, while T.sirtalis has it at the 2-3rd scale. Something else you can check are the number of scales......T.radix has 21 while T.sirtalis has 19. For my money, from the pics you've got up.......I'd say T.radix and considering the area they came from I'd say T.r.radix and not T.r.haydeni (which some people don't even consider a real subspecies anyways).
Thank you all! But when you say check the number of scales, where am I counting? Circumference? Length? I'm a noobie. I've worked for Vet's and caught and raised snakes for years but not professionally. Or to the extent that I'm wanting to now! :D

[Stefan-A]

Thank you all! But when you say check the number of scales, where am I counting? Circumference? Length? I'm a noobie. I've worked for Vet's and caught and raised snakes for years but not professionally. Or to the extent that I'm wanting to now! :D
Start at the big ventral scales and call them scale row 0. Then move up the side at a 45 degree angle. Count anywhere that isn't too close to the head or behind the cloaca.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/rowcounting.jpg

Edit: I should be a bit more observant, he meant counting the dorsal scale rows (circumference).

[GarterGuy]

Hey, cool pic for scale counting! Yeh, you count up like this and when you get to the dorsum of the snake, it'll be the same down the other side. So if you count up 11...that means that's 10 scales on either side, with one on top.....total of 21, which it should be for you T.radix.

[suzoo]

Thank you! Thank you!! I will now go count the scales of my snakes! :) Better than counting sheep, as that has never worked for me, and it's way past my bedtime. lol

[suzoo]

Well, Thank you all VERY much!!! Gloria was a little cranky as she's fixing to shed, but Gerdie(the one as my Avatar) held perfectly still, and the count is 21. You were all right as I knew you would be :) My snakes are T.Radix!
Again, thanks, Suzoo

[Cazador]

Two more cents to spend as you choose... Rossman et al. recommend counting the dorsal scales beginning with the 10th one in front of (anterior to) the vent since the number of dorsal scales can vary within a single subspecies and even on the same individual, between the vent and the neck.

[suzoo]

Two more cents to spend as you choose... Rossman et al. recommend counting the dorsal scales beginning with the 10th one in front of (anterior to) the vent since the number of dorsal scales can vary within a single subspecies and even on the same individual, between the vent and the neck.

OK, so I count again. My only adult male Gerby, but guess what, I only got nine counting the top one...now what??? :( Is he a different sub? He is not a ribbon, but much longer and thinner than the girls, resembling a ribbon, but not THAT long and narrow.

[GarterGuy]

Like Rick (Cazador) had said, you can have some variance between individuals and especially with males, that tend to be smaller and more slender then females, this might be possible. That's also why you can use the other characteristics like placement of the side stripe, spots below the side stripe....number of labials, ect. to make a positive ID. If your count was correct, this would give you a scale count of 17, which doesn't correspond to any of the Thamnophis species that are found in your area. Even ribbons, by the book, have a scale count of 19. The only ones with 17 are T.ordinoides and T.brachystoma...ones a west coast garter, the other an east coast one.

[suzoo]

OK, This time I took Gerby(the male) out of the tank, and counted very carefully and came up with 19 total. I even tried to get some good shots with the camera, but either my camera's not that good, or I'm not a very good photographer(OK both lol), but then I took Gracie out and counted hers, and she had 21 total. I took pics of her too, which I will post in the photo gallery, as they were very funny, she was more interested in the camera than letting me take her picture! So I'm pretty possitive they are all T. Radix, and my male is just weird. lol

[KITKAT]

Could we combine the photo in this message with the drawing posted elsewhere by Amandantus (sp?), and put it in an Article for easy reference every time this question comes up?

KITKAT


Start at the big ventral scales and call them scale row 0. Then move up the side at a 45 degree angle. Count anywhere that isn't too close to the head or behind the cloaca.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/rowcounting.jpg

Edit: I should be a bit more observant, he meant counting the dorsal scale rows (circumference).

[Cazador]

The wheels are already turning because of your prior suggestion :D.
Rick

[adamanteus]

Start at the big ventral scales and call them scale row 0. Then move up the side at a 45 degree angle. Count anywhere that isn't too close to the head or behind the cloaca.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/rowcounting.jpg

Edit: I should be a bit more observant, he meant counting the dorsal scale rows (circumference).

Best to do the count well forward of the cloaca, as scale rows diminish in number toward the vent. Mid-body is always favourite.

James.