Corn snake dude/ettes, help! :P

[Zephyr]

I'm working out my breeding plans for next next year.
So far, I have these to work with:
Female normal Okeetee
Female Butter
Female Lavender motley lined
Female red amelenistic
Male orange amelenistic
Male light anerythristic

So, I'm thinking this:
Female red amelenistic x male orange amel
Female lavender motley lined x male light anery (If this doesn't sound good, I'll try and find a stud)
Female butter x male orange amel
Female normal Okeetee x Male light anery (My favorite combo <3)

Look good? Any comments? Questions? Concerns? Miscarriages?

[infernalis]

Kinda like a skittles commercial, taste the rainbow:D

I'm a big Korn, oh sorry Corn fan, and they all sound like killer combos.

[Zephyr]

I'm just wondering about the lavender and butter crosses... Moreso the first...

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Hello Zephyr!

Hmmmm! Let's take a look at the rainbow.

First, I am confused as to the genetics of the red AND the orange amelanistics. Are these just polygenic differences/selectively bred blends (for example, both snakes are amelanistic, and they are just either more red or more orange...), or is there another recessive trait effecting the colors?
If they are just polygenic blends (so I will assume), then it is likely you will get some reds, some oranges, and some red/orange inbetweens (and the only recessive gene present will be amelanism).

As for the lavender motley lined and the light anery: The offspring will all be normally colored and patterned, unless there are some unknown heterozygous traits. All of them will be what I often call "super mutts", for although they will be phenotypically normal, they will be het. lavender, het. motley, and het. anerythristic. This is great if #1) you like to avoid excessive inbreeding for recessive traits, as you are outcrossing new genetic stock, and #2) you plan to breed the results to a similar genetic line (usually a long-term breeding project). This cross is NOT recommended if you plan to sell the normally colored offspring to a pet store or any amateurs breeders who do not understand corn genetics. Since they look normal, they may be sold as normal. Unknown hets showing up in corn breeding programs everywhere are messing up a lot of people's genetic predictions, and is causing a mess, even in professional circles. Also, beware the motley gene in corns! The motley gene is named so, because the motley dorsal and dorso-lateral patterns are highly variable (big circles, small circles, stripes, circles and stripes, even selectively bred banded specimens! This may sound confusing, but the motley gene shares the same loci as the striping gene, so both mutations appear co-dominant; HOWEVER, motley is dominant over striping! Huh? A lot of pet stores sell striped corns that are technically not striped, they just look striped, but they are actually motley - The observable difference is in the width of the stripe. If you have a motley /striped corn, the 2 recessive genes of this snake may be 1 motley and 1 striped (but "real" striping doesn't show up) or 2 motley genes that just show up as thin stripes. True striped corns have a rather wide dorsal stripe. Of course most all motleys and stripes have no belly checkering.

Your female butter and male orange amel will produce all amelanistics that are het. for the caramel gene.

Your Okeetee and anery will result in all normals; some may take on the polygenic Okeetee influence from their mother, while others may look like average corns; there may a lot of variablity: You might have average-colored corns with bold black borders, or you might have thin-bordered corns with the rich solid Okeetee colors. Since your anery is "light" (sure it's not a ghost?), it might have a Miami influence, which may make some of the normals have a lighter background color (light tan or grey to almost white). All will also be het. for anerythrism.

Hope this helps.

Steven

[Lori P]

Kyle, my little brain can't get into these genetics. All I want to know is..... can you make me a purple one??? :D

[Stefan-A]

Aren't lavender corns a little bit purple?

[Lori P]

Well... they're lavender-ish. I want PURPLE. Dark, vibrant, deep purple.

[Stefan-A]

Well, I did recommend Cryptelytrops (Trimeresurus) purpureomaculatus. :D

http://www.trimeresurus.de/images/purpurhaken.jpg

[Lori P]

And how kind of you to help me in my search by recommending such a DEADLY creature. LOL Now, go forth and find me that color without the venom and fangs. :-)

[drache]

lavender snakes aren't even really lavender
they look more like really white person left out in the cold too long

[Zephyr]

Steven, thanks for all the info. The two amels are simply color variances, no recessive dominant etc involved there.
I might not breed the lavender x the anery, mainly because I'd like to be part of a stop in mucking up corn lines. :P
I'm probably going to go through with the butter x orange amel. Should be interesting. :P

[MoJo]

If you want to get a handle on corn genetics and what you would get by breeding your snakes together then I highly recommend Chuck Pritzel's book available here - Cornsnake Morph Guide (tm) (http://cornguide.com/the%20guide.php) .

Many people will do crosses that end up with normal babies so that when they then mate the babies they get interesting combos (F2s). So if you wanted to mate the lavender and the anery the F2s have the potential to be lavender motley, stripes or stripe motleys, or anery motley, stripes or stripe motleys, or anery lavender motley, stripes or stripe motleys, or normal motley, stripes or stripe motleys, or aneries, lavenders or anery lavenders!

Crossing the Okeetee to the anery will give you normals het anery unless your Okeetee has hidden hets. The F2swill all be normals and aneries.

Good Luck with your plans!

What do you mean by "mucking up corn genetics" ?

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

I agree on the choice of reading material. Charles Pritzel's genetic guide does a great job of explaining how the different morphs all work!

I refer to "mucking up" as the all too frequent occurrence of people breeding corns that end up being packed with untrackable hets. Many breeders who hatch these (often normal) mutts may keep a few for themselves and then sell the rest to friends or pet shops. The corn trade in particular is swamped with such specimens. Subsequent breeding of these individuals by amateurs (who often don't understand the basics of corn genetics) and even professionals (who just don't know the genetic lineages of these snakes) will very often result in further "mucking".

To perhaps explain this better, take for example the recessive traits Anery type A (common anerythrism) and Anery type B (charcoal); they are incompatible - cross one of each with one another and you will get a normal corn that's het for both type A and type B.

Another similar example is the incompatibility of Hypomelanism type A (common hypo), Hypo B (sunkissed Okeetee), Hypo C (Lava), and Hypo D (Ultra-hypo). Ultra-hypo is a rather new mind-bender all its own, because it is co-dominant with standard amelanism, and when one allele of each is present it creates the co-dominant combo that is "Ultramel".

Another problem with "mucking" or "muddling" is the fact that many mutations look really similar to one another. Not all Lavenders are really lavender; some look like ghosts or light anerys. Often light anerys resemble ghosts, and dark ghosts resemble anerys! Amels that have that creamy background are often sold as Creamsicles, even though they have no Emory Rat Snake influence whatsoever! Many think creamsicle is a recessive trait, when it is actually a polygenic fusion of 2 subspecies. Some creamsicles are labeled as such because of an influence from Black Rat Snakes (hybridization).

And please don't get me started on the Bloodred line, for that one hasn't even been completely explained yet; it is possible that the original Bloodred strain was a combination of 2 or 3 different mutations (including simple recessives and co-dominance)

I only recently discovered this detriment to predictable breeding programs, as I too have hatched normal "super mutts". I thought I was being responsible by offering written histories of each snake I sold to the pet store (complete with accurate listings of hets... by the way I usually try to avoid results that deal with 66% hets), but was disappointed when they just sold them as normals. So, the next person who wants to breed one of these snakes doesn't know what they are going to get. This may be tempting for some, but not the professional breeder who needs to know exact genotypes. It is possible that many of us expect unknown hets with normal corns, but their presence in more exotic morphs can really foul things up!

Hope that explains "mucking up."

Steve

[Garter_Gertie]

Does. I think. YIKES! I still do a grid for Mendel and his peas...

[MoJo]

Well if that is your definition of mucking up then corn genetics are definitely mucked up! I think there is no way around this since when you are breeding for F2 or F3 even then you are bound to get normals with hets and no pet store is going to bother listing those. A lot of people will sell them as just regular normals as well since they do not want other people trying to beat them to making the new triple quadruple etc. recessive snake.

I actually think hidden hets are fun. I found out 2 snakes I won are het anery and one het mot! IT was a nice surprise. I do agree that things get confusing with anery, ghost and lavender and especially the hypo genes. It is way to late to change that though.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Yeah, corns are pretty mucked up. COMING SOON to a muck pool near you: Boa constrictors, Kingsnakes, and OH NO! Garters? Well, yeah, I admit I was overjoyed at a few hidden hets myself... Regarding garters, since it is a garter forum (I know I'm in the non-garter section!): mucking here would refer to intergrade / hybrid situations, since the recessive morphs of Thamnophis don't even come close to that of Pantherophis! yet....