Vagans/Wandering Garters

[jitami]

Ok, I find myself repeatedly drawn to the T.e.vagrans... the silver/grey and black ones in particular. I've repeatedly heard that they are the most likely to be cannibalistic and should be housed separately. Any thoughts? Anyone keep them communally housed? Any issues? Any other Vagrans specific traits I should know about?

I'm kind of miffed with California state regulations, because as I understand them, even with a sales receipt from out of state, I'd be allowed to house two, and only two, who could never be bred. Seems like a waste for such beautiful creatures, but they do have a relatively small naturally occurring range in California and that is the determining factor.

Still wrapping my brain around it, but silver vagrans always allllllways get my attention.... hmmmm....

Thoughts? Advice?

[jitami]

Of course there's a typo in the thread title that can't be fixed... grrrr... maybe I'll work on a breeding project of garters who eat no meat or dairy... sigh...

[Garter_Gertie]

ROFLOLPMP!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Tami, had you not said anything I'd have never noticed - as I didn't. But "...maybe I'll work on a breeding project of gaters who eat no meat or dairy..." is PRICELESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Love the humor!!!

[jitami]

:) Thanks Gertie... I hate when I do things like that... I'm one of those type A people and while I try not to let it bother me, it drives me NUTS! But, if we can't laugh at ourselves.... :rolleyes:

[Lori P]

ROFL Tami... what a hoot!!!

[Zephyr]

Well, I'm housing my vagrans in a maternity ward as she may be gravid, there's also a much smaller vagrans in the enclosure with her and I've yet to see signs of hunger, etc.
I'm about 100% sure even the most cannibalistic of garters prefer other food items, such as frogs, fish, worms, etc, as opposed to another member of their species. Think about how much energy it takes for a person to hold on to a garter, then think about the energy one garter must exert to eat another of its own kind! Just keep them well fed; you should have no problems.

[jitami]

Makes sense Kyle. Thanks.

[Stefan-A]

I've repeatedly heard that they are the most likely to be cannibalistic and should be housed separately. Any thoughts? Anyone keep them communally housed? Any issues? Any other Vagrans specific traits I should know about?
I normally keep mine together, but I separated them when one got a slight problem with its mouth and I'm not sure I'm going to keep them together anymore. The only problems I've had so far, are a couple of food fights where one snake has grabbed the other by the neck.

Specific traits.. Strong and really massive bodies, tend to curl up and keep still when others would run away.

[jitami]

Thanks Stefan. The food fights would worry me. You don't think feeding them seperately would allow you to still house them together or is it just not worth the worry? So far I like the specific traits :)

[Stefan-A]

Well, the bigger one of the two is much bigger and it really is a bottomless pit. So I'd have to worry about the smaller one, even if I fed them separately. So I'm concerned about accidental AND intentional cannibalism. I'd feel safer housing it with the much bigger parietalis, than with its little sister.

[jitami]

Ah, I hadn't thought of the size difference. I do remember you mentioning that in another thread. Makes a lot of sense now!

[Stefan-A]

Then again, I'm probably a bit too scared of cannibalism.

I think I'll house it with the parietalis, once it has grown another 10 cm. Should take another 3 sheds or so.

[Stefan-A]

How significant is the size difference between the sexes? Does anybody here have a picture of an adult male and an adult female vagrans together?

[Garter_Gertie]

Then again, I'm probably a bit too scared of cannibalism.

I think I'll house it with the parietalis, once it has grown another 10 cm. Should take another 3 sheds or so.

Why do you say three sheds, Stefan? Do snakes grow about/approximately .33 cm a shed? (Or is that measurement based on what/how often you feed?) And what would that be in inches?

[Lexa]

I'm confused - why wouldn't you be allowed to breed them? Surely if none of the babies are released, it shouldn't be an issue...

[Stefan-A]

Why do you say three sheds, Stefan? Do snakes grow about/approximately .33 cm a shed? (Or is that measurement based on what/how often you feed?) And what would that be in inches?
I base it on how much they've grown between sheds up until now. It has been almost exactly 5 cm. One of the snakes is one shed behind, since it hasn't eaten lately and it's almost 5 cm shorter. It was slightly longer than the other one a few months ago. I said 3 instead of 2 just to be sure. I guess their growth rate has been pretty well documented in my thread.

[jitami]

California regulations actually say that we're not allowed to "propagate" them... I find my mind wandering to ways around this, but that's probably not the right thing to do. If there was a way around it that I was comfortable with I would probably go find a girl for my male T. e. elegans.

[Garter_Gertie]

Ah. Okay. So that's something I should watch. Thanks!

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

My thoughts on housing snakes together: Cannibalism set aside, I believe it is a good practice to keep snakes housed separately. My main reason for this is so you can monitor their health, their bowel movements, etc. Honestly, I can't expect to be watching my snakes 24/7, so if I am pondering their passings, I can't possibly know who left what behind! (Especially if I am concerned about competitive basking! Many snakes, esp. smaller ones, often are intimidated into not taking their place on the best spot for thermo-regulation.)

I also wanted to mention that, in regards to CA Dept of Fish and Game regulations... Not only can you not breed native Thamnophis in CA, you need to watch your species bag limit (see CDF&G freshwater regulations booklet). For instance, if you have 1 vagrans (Wandering) and 1 elegans (Mountain), that's it! That's all you are allowed to have. This would also include terrestris (Coast). Simple reason is that the bag limit for the Western Terrestrial Garter is 2! All 3 of the garters I mentioned are subspecies of the elegans complex. Subspecies do not count in regards to the bag limit.

The same would apply to sirtalis (infernalis and fitchi) - one of each or 2 of one, but not more than 3 snakes total! [Note: So Cal specimens of infernalis are protected by law.]

The same would apply to the atratus complex.

Keeping it legal for the sake of conservation,

Steven

[Garter_Gertie]

Yup. Legal. That's why Kenabec (Hoggy) is CB. Hoggies and Bulls are species of interest in MN.

I sure hope not too many garters go legal. There's SO MANY native ones I want!

[KITKAT]

I have had a pair of WC wanderings together in a 55 gallon aquarium (1/2 meter by 1 1/3 meter by 1/2 meter high) for a year now, with no problems.

I feed them using forceps, and they take the food directly from me. I keep them both eating at the same time, so neither one approaches the other while it is eating.

[jitami]

I also wanted to mention that, in regards to CA Dept of Fish and Game regulations... Not only can you not breed native Thamnophis in CA, you need to watch your species bag limit (see CDF&G freshwater regulations booklet). For instance, if you have 1 vagrans (Wandering) and 1 elegans (Mountain), that's it!

Thanks for clarifying that Steven. I was thinking 2 of each sub species would be allowed, but one of each species does make more sense. Since my elegans isn't going anywhere I still have more thinking to do. Maybe I need to learn to be a better herper and just enjoy them in the wild.... but, said in my most whiney voice, I wanna have baaabieees... hmph... :rolleyes:

[jitami]

I have had a pair of WC wanderings together in a 55 gallon aquarium (1/2 meter by 1 1/3 meter by 1/2 meter high) for a year now, with no problems.

I feed them using forceps, and they take the food directly from me. I keep them both eating at the same time, so neither one approaches the other while it is eating.

Thanks KITKAT! Since I can't have two now anyway it's a moot point til Sly passes away... and I'm in no hurry for that to happen!!!

[Loren]

Subspecies do not count in regards to the bag limit.

The same would apply to sirtalis (infernalis and fitchi) - one of each or 2 of one, but not more than 3 snakes total!

Not more than 2 snakes(sirtalis) total you mean ? :)

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Not more than 2 snakes(sirtalis) total you mean ? :)

Yes, exactly. But that only counts for CA natives. For instance T. s. sirtalis (Eastern), T. s. parietalis (Red-sided....NOT CA Red-sided!) or T. s. concinnus (Red-spotted) would not really count, since they are not native and obviously do not look like the CA subspecies. You might have problems with perhaps a parietalis/valley intergrade or the likes, for then the resemblance might be mistaken for a CA native (and fish and game won't care what you say!). The laws are loopy, and are not policed that often; however if you are considering breeding, that is were you can get into trouble... What do you do with the excess offspring you may not keep? It is not ethical or responsible to release them into the wild due to pathogens and the usually ill-fated competition with resident populations. You can't sell them either...

Just a note regarding CA native snakes that you can breed: I have 2 CA Kingsnakes (Lampropeltis getulas californicas), a subspecies of the Common Kingsnake - Kings, Gophers, ans Rosy Boas are the only CA native snakes where you are allowed to have up to 4 W/C's. In order to breed you need a breeder's permit from fish and game for any one of these 3 snakes. Each neonate you sell has to be sold with a serial number to be passed on to the new owner. Any pet store in CA which does not offer said # with snake is in violation of CA law! The breeder's permit allows you to go beyond normal bag limits (I do not know the # for this).

Only one of my kings is W/C; the other came with a serial #. Technically, I am allowed 3 more W/C's before I reach my limit. Serial numbered snakes are exempt from the limit! I have a third king, which is an intergrade between the Desert and Black subspecies of the Common King; it also does not count, as it is not a CA native (the example I mentioned earlier with out of state ssp. of garters).

I understand the frustration with some of the laws, but I bet it keeps a lot of herpers from going overboard and become herp hoarders (sort of like old ladies with gazillions of cats!).

Steve

[Loren]

I'm actually fairly content with ca. fish and game laws, other than that I wish the possesion limit was up 1 on a few species like elegans, for example, so I could have one of each of the 3 subspecies. I also think it would be nice to have more captive breeding allowed in order to take pressure off wild collecting, but do understand that illegal activity (like selling w.c. that are labeled c.b.) might come with that- maybe thats why they dont allow it.

It is also possible to get a non -comercial propagation permit, allowing you to have increased possesion limits of a few other species of snakes, including non-profit breeding, but, as with the comercial permit, fish and game may now come knocking at your door at any time to inspect your facility, because your name is now on their list. Even with following the laws, I dont like that idea. Just as I dont want police digging through my home even though I do not have any illegal activity going on there.

My main fear is that the laws will change, and that soon it might be illegal to keep anything exotic because its potentially harmful if released/escaped, and illegal to keep natives for conservation reasons- in other words, the hobby dies. We have already seen these types of laws getting pushed in other states. I think its missouri that is trying to ban nearly all reptile and bird private ownership.

[jitami]

Thank you guys so much for going over and over this. It really does help firm things up in my head. I still don't have a clue what I'm going to do, other than not breed native species and not collect more than one more from the elegans clan :)

I guess silver easterns are sounding a bit more attractive...

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

I am not comfortable with fish and game knocking on my door either, so I don't know if I will do any CA Kingsnake breeding in the years to come. There are plenty of Kings on the CB market already!

As for garters, I think we should stick with the ones that are legal for every person's state. Pushing the limit or breeding illegally will only further add fuel to the fire that is consuming the hobby - continued passing of ever stricter laws! If you tempt the authorities in California, our laws could get worse. It's enough that we have extremists like PETA trying to shut the trade down. But the fuel for their fire is partially valid due to so much of the ignorance and apathy abroad!

Regarding non-commercial breeding: It is rather pointless; what do you do with excess snakes you are not allowed to sell?

Now this may seem extreme to some, and perhaps impossible to carry out, but I think all herp possessions should be licensed just like a dog. With the license would come mandatory caging and care requirements for the species in mind. My reason for supporting this is simple and perhaps a bit harsh: A lot of people want to have a herp as a pet (this goes for any pet actually). Every time I visit my pet store of choice (to buy feeders or sell them; I breed rats and mice...) I can't count how many customers I see, who really, REALLY should not be allowed to own a pet. I am not attacking those who take the time and money to invest in the proper upkeep and education regarding their acquired pet. I am referring to the ignorant and cheap individuals who want to shut their kid up, buy them an animal, and spend the bare bare minimum on a set-up, only to offer them up for adoption or set them loose when they get too big, eat too much, or just aren't cute anymore. If you really have the passion for the hobby, you would make the investment. Those with the superficial approach probably wouldn't get the license, and therefore the animal, and that animal would then be spared a possibly horrible life! Some people should not have animals as pets... For that matter, some people shouldn't have kids. Most everyone can breed; not everyone is a good parent. The same applies to keeping animals.

Plus... and I may be slightly suspect myself, many herp-keepers I know have just a bit of obsessive compulsiveness. Talk to Kathy Love (cornutopia.com) and tell her you have a couple of corn snakes, and she will tell you that's not enough! I know a lot of reptile hoarders, and I am beginning to see a problem here as well. We humans sometimes just want it all!
In the long run, our obsession to have or multiply our pets may be a detriment. Count how many of us chat on this forum on a regular basis; I am sure most of us care about our animals. Now how many other herp keepers are out there that don't even consider all the outcomes of their actions.... Do all of us combined have that many fingers and toes???

I am currently downsizing my corn population because of a plethora of corns in the trade (goldfish of the snake trade). Corns are approaching a dead end in popularity (despite all the beautiful morphs and phases). Start this madness with garters (It has begun!), and we are going to have an oversaturation of garters! We may not see this now, but can anybody say bearded dragon birth control?
I am instead focusing on photography, and learning how to frame the best pics! I'm also out in the field a lot with the GPS taking notes for my website.
As our economy is heading further into the dumps, I am cutting down on lighting, heating, and food costs. I no longer want to see myself as an obsessive snake collector! It's not healthy, for me or the snake. The few I decide to keep will be single natives studied in tandem with my wildlife major. This is not to say I won't breed in the future; I intend to do hybrid research, but not for the industry.

Okay, I've been rambling again.... I must always remember... that in this twisted world people are going to do what they want anyways.

Steve

[Loren]

Well Steven, I've had some of the same thoughts myself. I wish somehow we could keep all those people that shouldnt have herps from having them, without it affecting myself or others who actually do know what they are doing. Rather than a minimum equipment standard, I would prefer a minimum knowledge test. Someone with good experience/knowledge can keep a herp healthly in a pretty basic setup, while someone without a clue could easily kill a herp in a 3000 dollar monster cage. Besides general husbandtry knowledge, people should be required to know what the animal will require as an adult, and how soon adulthood will be. I cant stand seeing someone buy a herp, and then ask what it eats.
As for hoarding, I have always felt that the line between having a collection and hoarding is whether or not you can and do properly care for all of the animals. I do have to constantly monitor myself so that I dont cross that line, as I am often near it- but thats why I dont have red tails, carpet pythons, womas, dumerils, blackthroat monitors, every species of racer...
Many people get tired of caring for a large collection and venture into other areas of the hobby, and there is nothing wrong with that, but the bottom line is, you definitely have to know how much you can handle.

As for garter breeding, I hope that each species will be captive bred in various states. As for an eventual overpopulation of captive bred, well, thats a tough one, not sure what to do with that.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Rather than a minimum equipment standard, I would prefer a minimum knowledge test. Someone with good experience/knowledge can keep a herp healthly in a pretty basic setup, while someone without a clue could easily kill a herp in a 3000 dollar monster cage. Besides general husbandtry knowledge, people should be required to know what the animal will require as an adult, and how soon adulthood will be. I cant stand seeing someone buy a herp, and then ask what it eats.
As for hoarding, I have always felt that the line between having a collection and hoarding is whether or not you can and do properly care for all of the animals.

Couldn't agree with you more Loren! Some of the employees at my pet store of choice have told me I should work there, but I always have to respond, "Are you kidding? I'd get fired the first day for snapping at one of your idiot customers!" You know... the thug who's all big and tough (maybe steroids?) and says, "A-huh! Yea... I wanna anaconda, so I can show mah freyinds how it'll eat a pig. Heeyuk!"
I would say, "Buddy, the only anaconda anyone should sell you is one big enough to swallow your stupid (Bleeep!), so we'll be rid of you!" LOL!

I must think I'm funny...

Steve

[Loren]

Yeah, I'd like to see the day that the petstore employees not only know what they are talking about, but refuse to sell herps to unknowledgeable/idiot customers. As I think you touched on earlier, law breaking and unknowledgeable keepers are the fuel that Peta loves to use to the maximum.

[Stefan-A]

Now this may seem extreme to some, and perhaps impossible to carry out, but I think all herp possessions should be licensed just like a dog. With the license would come mandatory caging and care requirements for the species in mind.
I find it reasonable, but as you say, impossible to carry out. Too many animals to keep track of, too many species and subspecies to take into consideration, too many people who are unwilling to get that license, when all they need to do, is to keep quiet. To keep this short, I see no reason why anybody except a few very serious commercial breeders would get licensed, it would be a law that's impossible to enforce and quite possibly impossible to follow. Then there's the thing about caging and care requirements. Who'll be making the requirements? Someone who'll allow conditions below the absolute minimum, or one that makes completely ludicrous demands that will make it impossible for anybody who isn't a vet or a scientist to keep them? The more specific you make a law, the bigger the risk is, that you'll get a compromise that doesn't benefit the animal, or an extreme solution that's as good as a ban. Every time somebody makes a stricter law, it mostly punishes those that have not done and would not do anything wrong.

Incidentally, I recently heard about a law in another country, that says that dogs and cats can't be left unsupervised for more than 6 hours (a typical work day is 8). The person who told me about it, is a real fanatic (also a gigantic hypocrite) when it comes to animal welfare and she got upset when I asked her why not 5 hours or 7, and when I wondered what that number was based on, she declared that she doesn't care what it's based on. Is that the kind of person you'd want making the decisions?


My reason for supporting this is simple and perhaps a bit harsh: A lot of people want to have a herp as a pet (this goes for any pet actually). Every time I visit my pet store of choice (to buy feeders or sell them; I breed rats and mice...) I can't count how many customers I see, who really, REALLY should not be allowed to own a pet. I am not attacking those who take the time and money to invest in the proper upkeep and education regarding their acquired pet. I am referring to the ignorant and cheap individuals who want to shut their kid up, buy them an animal, and spend the bare bare minimum on a set-up, only to offer them up for adoption or set them loose when they get too big, eat too much, or just aren't cute anymore. If you really have the passion for the hobby, you would make the investment. Those with the superficial approach probably wouldn't get the license, and therefore the animal, and that animal would then be spared a possibly horrible life! Some people should not have animals as pets... For that matter, some people shouldn't have kids. Most everyone can breed; not everyone is a good parent. The same applies to keeping animals.
I think the responsibility in this case should be on the pet store. I like to brag about my local pet store, it recently received an award for good business ethics. It won't even sell a goldfish without asking you a few questions about your aquarium and what's in it and they have refused to sell to people I know, because they were going to mix species with different requirements on water hardness. They really force pet owners/buyers to educate themselves before they'll be able to buy any animals. But how would you go about making a store change the way they do business? That's something I don't have any good answers to. Education of the owners and clerks? Education of the public, so that they'll understand what they should demand of the pet stores? Make it illegal to sell an animal without providing the buyer with at least a basic care sheet? The parents obviously have a responsibility, too, but they're distracted by their whining kids and the pet stores do function as a hub.

Of course there's the matter of what to do with the animals when the owners don't want them any longer for whatever reason. The shelters obviously need more resources. Not much else that can be done.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Yeah, all the regulation would create a cluster-(you-know-what). And imagine the chaos of trying to figure every state's different laws!