Den effect on population size

[Zephyr]

I just noticed, thanks to Shanley's thread, that the availability of dens may greatly affect population size. I thought that the main reason I find so many garters is because of an abundant food source, which could very will be the reason, but then I realized most of the areas I herp and find snakes have piles of old cracked cement blocks or other man made structures that have fallen to waste near them. So I'm thinking this may be the number one limiting factor to garter population size. Just look at the Narcisse dens!

[ssssnakeluvr]

food availability dies afect the population..no food, no snakes. there does need to be dens in the area, but they can travel some distance for food..

[Snake lover 3-25]

ooo that makes sence!!!! because i haven't seen a lareg pop in one place since i moved here!!!! what about the place that i found them b4??? could me picking them up possibly have made them get lost??? unable to find their den again??? maybe i can fix the pop!!!:eek: what if i relocate all of the snakes that i find to the place where they had all congregated b4???:D

[Zephyr]

OR, you could scout the area for a den, and if you can't find one, you've found the problem. :P

[Snake lover 3-25]

but i think that that IS a den!!! and i don't know what one looks like.... want me to take some pics???:D

[Zephyr]

but i think that that IS a den!!! and i don't know what one looks like.... want me to take some pics???:DLots and lots of rocks. That's a den. lol

[Snake lover 3-25]

there are lots and lots of rocks.... from the size of an eraser to half the size of a car!!!:eek: yay!!!! but i havn't found a snake there since i messed with them when i was a kid.... so as i said b4:D



ooo that makes sence!!!! because i haven't seen a lareg pop in one place since i moved here!!!! what about the place that i found them b4??? could me picking them up possibly have made them get lost??? unable to find their den again??? maybe i can fix the pop!!!:eek: what if i relocate all of the snakes that i find to the place where they had all congregated b4???:D

[Snake lover 3-25]

ok i got pics!!! hold on.... i have to upload!!!:D:D

[Zephyr]

Wow, that fast? :P

[Snake lover 3-25]

it's only 50 ft from my house!!!:D

[Zephyr]

it's only 50 ft from my house!!!:DN'ermind. lol

[infernalis]

We used to have a trash dump out back, in there was an old junk car, the whole car was buried except for a small crevasse that led to the outside.

Back then we had eastern milks all over the stinking place, they were everywhere.

Then one day I had the bright idea of cleaning up that waste, so I rented a huge bulldozer, and went to work. It was mid summer, so the car was empty except for a couple of stray milks that safely got away.

That fall the ground back there was covered in confused milk snakes looking for that car, but it was gone.

That was many years ago, I don't know what ever became of all those milk snakes, but the population around me has shrunk a lot since.

[Zephyr]

Hmm... I'm thinking maybe the addition of some hibernaculums to Shanley's "territory" might increase the number of snakes she finds. :D

[anji1971]

So,
is it possible to easily "make" a hibernaculum? Could an average 30-something mom manage a task like that?:D
And how would you know it was safe, had the right depth for proper temp control, etc.,etc. .....

[crzy_kevo]

yes this is very interesting i could easily make one across the street if this is possible to do so

[adamanteus]

It sounds as though a good method would be to dig a hole and bury an old car!:D

[Snake lover 3-25]

ok i got some pics.... is this a den???
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//617/medium/den_site_002.JPG
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//617/medium/den_site_003.JPG
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//617/medium/den_site_004.JPG
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//617/medium/den_site_005.JPG
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//617/medium/den_site_006.JPG
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//617/medium/den_site_007.JPG
hold on there's more...

[Snake lover 3-25]

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//617/medium/den_site_007.JPG
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//617/medium/den_site_008.JPG
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//617/medium/den_site_009.JPG
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//617/medium/den_site_010.JPG
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//617/medium/den_site_005.JPG
there's def food there!!!!
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//617/medium/den_site_012.JPG
hold on more...

[Snake lover 3-25]

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//617/medium/den_site_011.JPG
ok done...:D:D:D:D:D

[Garter_Gertie]

Look at the little 'face' on the back of the head of that toad! Too neat!

My guess as to a den would be no. Those are surface rocks. I'd *think* there would have to be more depth - like LOTS of rocks piled up, where the heap goes down into the ground for like five feet or so.

Just an educated guess. I've no idea if I'm correct or not.

[Snake lover 3-25]

Look at the little 'face' on the back of the head of that toad! Too neat!

ROFL!!!!! gosh you NEVER stop making me laugh!!!!!!!:D:D:p

[crzy_kevo]

that would be my guess to i think im going to end up trying to build a den site and seeing if anything has changed in a few months or maybe next year this will be an interesting project

[adamanteus]

I agree with Gertie, probably not a den site.... you're looking for deep crevices between the rocks, so the snakes can work their way down, away from the winter weather.

[Snake lover 3-25]

darn!!! :mad: then why were there so many there 6 yrs ago????:rolleyes:

[Zephyr]

Look at the little 'face' on the back of the head of that toad! Too neat!

My guess as to a den would be no. Those are surface rocks. I'd *think* there would have to be more depth - like LOTS of rocks piled up, where the heap goes down into the ground for like five feet or so.

Just an educated guess. I've no idea if I'm correct or not.From what I've read, a hibernaculum should extend at least 6 feet into the ground, and those look like they only cover the surface. I'll get a pic of my friend Gigi's concrete pile, where I'm sure there are snakes that brumate there.

[infernalis]

It sounds as though a good method would be to dig a hole and bury an old car!:D


I have some blueprints, but rather than hijack someones art, I'll track it back and get permission, or re-draw it.

It involves the use of a backhoe..... But does not include ANY old cars in the plans.

Lots of cinder blocks, gravel, a drain system, tile entrance, the works.

And when I finally do it, there WILL be cameras inside it and temp probes, as well as an emergency heat source in case winter bears down hard.

[crzy_kevo]

sounds like alot of money

[infernalis]

Nah, I have a neighbor with a backhoe, I borrow it all the time.

The bocks are not a must, I could use my unlimited supply of creek stone.

I think as long as the basic plan is sound, it could be done for around $500, and a live "Den cam" would be Worth it.