Garter Exchange I

[Garter_Gertie]

Didn't sleep well last nite. And up an hour early. When my mind has a bone to gnaw on I tend to be single minded.

Got to thinking. Maybe we'd have to convert dollars and pounds to euros so as to have a common denominator? Else we'd be comparing apples and oranges. Thoughts? Because I don't do math well.

Got to thinking. I think first we need lists of wants and what there is or may be available for exchange. It would then be the people getting and giving that would then foot the bill. Those not in the exchange in any way could then contribute should they wish to help out.

I'm thinking there would have to be two permits on both sides - an inney and an outey. And I'm fearful there's going to be custom fees and possibly other fees we've not thought of - I just don't think it's going to be as easy and cheap as a plane ticket and permits. My luck doesn't run that way.

Movin' the kids: Lots of cotton bags in a big wooden box with a heat pack at one end? THIS is not my balliwick and somebody else is going to have figure THIS puppy out. Paint SNAKES all over the box in BRIGHT RED and freak everyone out! :D What was that movie about the snakes on the plane?:eek::D:eek::D

I've started two threads: Wants and Available. The second including possible availables. Please post accordingly with your name/handle. Is there someone that would like to keep track of these two threads and have two lists going?

Bet the boa people never accomplished anything this great! :D

[Garter_Gertie]

Steve Humbolt - Steve, forgive me if I've misspelled your name - posted the following in another thread. This is really, really important.

"For anyone not certain whether or not it is legal to have snakes native to one's own current state of residence - Try checking with your local state dept of fish and game. For instance, the freshwater fishing guide put out by the California Dept of Fish and Game lists all reptiles and amphibians native to our state; it shows what you can not have, and it shows the limits and/or restrictions on what you can have. Other states have similar, less rigid, or even stricter guidelines (i.e: Washington state's no take policy). Some of the laws, especially where CB's are concerned, are a bit screwy, especially when mailed over state lines. For instance, I could buy 5 rubber boas from a breeder in a state where it's legal to breed and sell them, but legally, within the state of California, I could only keep 2 of them; that's California's limit at any one time - dead or alive. By law if I have 2 legal rubber boas that breed, any excess boas have to be turned in to fish and game to then be turned over to a zoo-like establishment, school, or be destroyed. The only native snakes you are allowed to breed in CA are CA Kings, Gophers, and Rosy Boas (and then only with special permit!). And the states are all different. Crazy world! Silly people!"

Make sure to check that any snake you want is legal in your state/area.

[infernalis]

Gertie, May I take a moment and try and explain in a simpler way.

As much as it sounds like a fun idea, once upon a time (primarily pre-911) many of the finest specimens were already imported overseas, it was easy to do, and no where near as expensive as it is now.

example, look at the pictures of the snakes in say James' collection, he has fine quality snakes, available locally, inexpensively and free of hassles.

We have the same exact species available readily all over, just watch the KS classifieds, every stinking day someone grabs up a garter and asks for 20-30 bucks for it.

So the bigger picture is, the cost of exchanging snakes would far exceed the value the snakes.

And we do not wish to encourage anyone from trying to be clever, I have read stories on other forums of folks who went to reptile shows, and had the snakes seized or even destroyed on sight. (That insane fear of snakes does not exclude border patrol agents with weapons)

And I have read enough forum banter over the years to tell who is genuine and who is making things up, the one couple's story brought a tear to my eye. so really it is not worth it to try and get "snakes on a plane"

Sadly, big importers who have the money to throw around will ensure that the rain forests will continue to be plundered for a while longer, And here is a strange twist to get your mind reeling, at the same time "factory breeders" are "culling inventory"

What does all that have to do with friends trading snakes? I am just trying to explain the logistics. there are plenty of garter snakes already in Europe that need homes. It would cost a lot to do, it stands the huge risk of failure at the expense of the animals lives. yada yada yada:rolleyes:

[Garter_Gertie]

Wayne, I'm so glad you spoke up. This is the stuff - input - that's needed. Your information is important.

Gosh. I sure wish the world was a simpler place.

[infernalis]

Gosh. I sure wish the world was a simpler place.

I would have to assume we all do :o

There are times, when I look at my Asian green snake and feel like total crap that once upon a time he was a "free bird" hanging out in his Chinese rain forest, then WHAM some dude in flip flops with a machete chops down his limb, shoves him in a pillow case and for what, $5?

[anji1971]

I would have to assume we all do :o

There are times, when I look at my Asian green snake and feel like total crap that once upon a time he was a "free bird" hanging out in his Chinese rain forest, then WHAM some dude in flip flops with a machete chops down his limb, shoves him in a pillow case and for what, $5?

Then again, Wayne,
He may not have survived at all for this long left in his Chinese rainforest, so you can look at him in his nice, safe home and feel a bit better.:)

[Garter_Gertie]

There are three garters on the US Fish & Wildife Service Threatened & Endangered Species System list.

T.e. megalops, Mexican garter. Currently there is no listing status but they're working on making it threatened.

T. gigas, Giant garter. Threatened.

And T.s. infernalis (formerly tetrataenia), San Francisco garter.

By Federal law no one in the US can have these snakes w/o a special permit.

[Stefan-A]

And T.s. infernalis (formerly tetrataenia), San Francisco garter.
If that's what they say, then they're wrong. T. s. infernalis and T. s. tetrataenia are two distinct subspecies.

[Garter_Gertie]

Actually, Stefan, I'm combining info. The US Fish & Wildlife Service then has it correctly as tetrataenia. It was elsewhere I found the info "formerly known as."

Thanks for the correction.

[sschind]

I would have to assume we all do :o

There are times, when I look at my Asian green snake and feel like total crap that once upon a time he was a "free bird" hanging out in his Chinese rain forest, then WHAM some dude in flip flops with a machete chops down his limb, shoves him in a pillow case and for what, $5?

Somehow I doubt if the guy in flip flops with the Machete got $5.00 for the snake. If he did I would feel much better about the whole thing. He probably got more like 50 cents if that.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

If that's what they say, then they're wrong. T. s. infernalis and T. s. tetrataenia are two distinct subspecies.

I agree. The 3 should be the Mexican, the Giant, and the San Francisco. Please note, however, that the populations of T. s. infernalis (CA Red-sided) in Southern California are also protected by law. Perhaps this was where there was some confusion. It is nice that the CA Dept. of Fish and Game takes individual subspecies into consideration!

So technically, there are a total of 3 protected species, but in detail, one of those species has one completely protected subspecies (tetrataenia) and one subspecies (infernalis) that has locality-based protection.

Steven

[Garter_Gertie]

I agree. The 3 should be the Mexican, the Giant, and the San Francisco. Please note, however, that the populations of T. s. infernalis (CA Red-sided) in Southern California are also protected by law. Perhaps this was where there was some confusion. It is nice that the CA Dept. of Fish and Game takes individual subspecies into consideration!

So technically, there are a total of 3 protected species, but in detail, one of those species has one completely protected subspecies (tetrataenia) and one subspecies (infernalis) that has locality-based protection.

Steven

I'd have to check my notes, but so far I've found three species, I believe species and not subs, that are on the Federal list meaning no can do nuttin' with any of those three.

After that, one must check their local laws and see what applies. Again not checking my notes but using this strictly as an example, if infernalis is not on the Federal list, I - here in MN - may have one or more but you people in CA can't.

I want to say I'm almost positive tetrataenia is on the Federal list. But don't quote me.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

I am embarrassed to say I have not accessed the Federal list, but the species we have mentioned (not ssp.) listed by California Dept of Fish and Game are the same. The State of California adds its own touch with the southern infernalis populations; I think it's great that the state takes a more in depth view (they are after all CA natives!) and goes after protecting sub-specific locality-based populations.