Opinions needed

[Tori]

Ok, I thought he was just talking but I guess he meant it. I had 6 garters show up at my house today in the mail. 6 W/C redsided garters. One of them has me confused though. It has no red at all, not a speck. But the other markings are right for a redsided garter and they all came from the same general area. Is it a genetic thing or is it a cross with with a puget sound which are also local there? Sorry, I left them large on purpose.

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t201/DragonDreams_album/Snakes/Newsnakes.jpg

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t201/DragonDreams_album/Snakes/newSnakess.jpg

I have them in a 55 fallon tank for now until I can build new cages.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Where did these 6 W/C's come from again? You said they were supposed to be Red-sided Garters (T. s. parietalis); if they are, then the oddball black & white can't be a Puget Sound Garter (T. s. pickerengii), for the two subspecies do not intergrade naturally. They are separated by hundreds of miles of Valley Garter (T. s. fitchi) territory. If you meant that these were W/C Red-spotted Garter (T. s. concinnus) {and they look kinda like low-red examples}, then the oddball could very well be a Puget Sound. Does the belly have any blue-ish gray tints? You might possibly consider a species check as well - could be a "clean-cut" variant of the Mountain Garter (T. e. elegans)

Time to count scales....

Let me know what you find out...

Steven

[Tori]

T. s. concinnus does not have the bright side stripe that these have, though the area does have T.s.fitchi and T.s. pickeringii. I did some checking and you were right, there are no red sided garters in that area. Is there such a thing as a valley garter with no red?

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

T.s. fitchi, infernalis, parietalis, and concinnus are all known for having the typical red spots (or what I call vertical bars); Similarly patterned indentations (depends on what a person calls foreground or background!) are prevalent in many garter species. Even pickerengii has indications of these.

I personally have not seen any "no-red" fitchis, but they have a large range, so variability, hyper-melanistic mutation, all of that could be possible knowing garters. You still have not mentioned where these came from. WA? OR? What part? West, East??? I am still trying to ascertain if another species might be possible.

I do not see any noticeable spotting anywhere in the black field (sometimes it shows up as dark black spots on black [heh? :)]

Have you counted supra-labial scales? Scale rows (neck, mid-body, and caudal counts)?

[Tori]

Washington - Olympia area

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

There are anerythristics red-sided garters available in the captive trade. I have no experience with this mutation in the wild, but that does not mean it does not exist. Has to start somewhere!

[Tori]

The red ones have cream colored bellies with no striping and a thin black stripe under the yellow side stripe. Some have red spots on cream colored cheeks and some have red almost to the top of their heads. The one without red has a slight blue cast to his belly, no striping.

[Tori]

Belly and side shots of one of the red ones.

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t201/DragonDreams_album/Snakes/newsnakessss.jpg

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t201/DragonDreams_album/Snakes/newsnakesss.jpg

This guy was nicely climbing for me, the no-red one is hiding and I don't have a good way to get a good photo without help. I have to say that these do not match any of the valley garter photos that I've been able to find online. They look identical to my California redsided garters without the blue.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Well, I think we are narrowing it down now. I have to say the 5 look very much like the Valley Garters we have near the mouth of the Klamath River here in NW California. No blue bellies, but they still mimic an infernalis intergrade with those occasional reds in the cheeks and mixed with the black on the head. A 3 hr drive inland from Eureka, CA (east towards the Trinity Alps Wilderness) the fitchis all have solid black heads.

As for the Olympia area (I'm thinking maybe a bit east of the Olympia area?), it is very close to a 3-way intergrade zone! Perhaps not even an hour's drive SSE, Lone Pine's Reptiles of the Northwest implicates an apex b/n the bounderies of fitchi, concinnus, and pickerengii.

I was contemplating perhaps the Mountain Garter, but the range is wrong. The Wandering Garter frequents the Olympia area, but I know of no T. e. vagrans with those markings. Head shape does not make me think it's a Northwestern (T. ordinoides - also found in that area!) either, even though they, being the MOST variable garter, may come with that pattern.

Honestly, I believe you have 5 fitchis (of pretty typical phase and form) and 1 pickerengii (noted for both having the "blues", no reds, and an occasional lack of "indentations" aiming for that total striped look).

See what happens when 2 folks put their heads together?! :)

Steve

[infernalis]

I had 6 garters show up at my house today in the mail. 6 W/C redsided garters.

Sounds like BOB:D

Check them for mites really well. Whenever multiple WC animals are packed together, if one has mites, they all will have mites.

My Puget boy Sky came from the same place. I wound up treating mites, then 2 of the mite bites got infected.

The vet prescribed oral antibiotics and pain killers, the bill was a hundred bucks, so my "affordable" Puget got expensive fast.

Those are some very handsome critters by the way, NICE

[Tori]

These didn't come from Bob. A friend of mine found a couple of young boys carrying them around in a 5-gal bucket near his house. He bought them for $5 bucks each and then sent them to me. I have looked most of them over and haven't found any signs of mites or ticks, but I am keeping them away from my other snakes for a while yet.

Bob has started selling other garters besides pugets?

[Tori]

Steve I think you are right about the fitchis but the pickeringi doesn't have a side stripe, or mine don't. Am I wrong?

I did find that Washington has these garters:
Thamnophis elegans, western terrestrial garter snake
Thamnophis ordinoides, northwestern garter snake
T. s. concinnus, red-spotted garter snake
T. s. fitchi, valley garter snake
T. s. pickeringi, Puget Sound garter snake

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Your "pickerengii" looks like it has 1 dorsal and 2 lateral stripes (white?). The Puget Sound Garter also comes with laterals and sometimes they're faded. Check out California Reptiles and Amphibians (http://www.californiaherps.com), go to the horizontal list of links at the top and click "beyond California", then go to the "Northwest" and look for the pickerengii pics and compare....

Would love to talk more, but I start a new job tomorrow at Redwood National Parks. I'll keep checking in.

Steven

[infernalis]

Bob has started selling other garters besides Pugets?

Bob has some reds in the classifieds lately.

Now that is a cool deal, I wish someone would find me a kid with a bucket full like that:D:D

[EdgyExoticReptiles]

all the red ones with the red cheeks are thamnophis sirtalis fitchi - valley garter snake ( or so it seems, im not 100% because the color of the ones in the corner are hard to see, and that other one might be a yellow puget...need better pics :) - sorry if someone already said that im to lazy to read through the whole thing :D

[Tori]

Never heard of a yellow puget sound, what does an adult look like?

[Zephyr]

Hmm... I'm gonna stay out of this one. My expertise lies in eastern garter species. :P

[beaniesmommy]

Stupid question, but I was told that it is illegal to remove snakes from there natural habitat in Washington? If it isn't I want to go find a friend for my wandering. Does anyone know?

[Tori]

You are right, it is illegal. Unfortunately my friend didn't know that at the time and I thought he was just talking or I would have told him so when he mentioned it briefly a week ago. All he said was he was going to send me a bunch of snakes and I said to go ahead. I told him after they arrived that he had just broke the law, so there won't be any more shipments.

[beaniesmommy]

Tori,

I don't want you to think I am "accusing" you of anything. :) I was more curious because I was told that but I got excited because I thought I could go on a expedition and find some more for our home. So thank you for the info. If you need any of those to go to a good home just let me know. :) I have a 40 gallon tank that is waiting for a couple perminent residents. :)

[ssssnakeluvr]

I would say they are valley garters, t s fitchi....the one with the red is hard to say for sure....but it's possible to have found an odd valley with no red.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Yeah, anerythrism's out there for sure; I still thinks it's a Puget!

For anyone not certain whether or not it is legal to have snakes native to one's own current state of residence - Try checking with your local state dept of fish and game. For instance, the freshwater fishing guide put out by the California Dept of Fish and Game lists all reptiles and amphibians native to our state; it shows what you can not have, and it shows the limits and/or restrictions on what you can have. Other states have similar, less rigid, or even stricter guidelines (i.e: Washington state's no take policy). Some of the laws, especially where CB's are concerned, are a bit screwy, especially when mailed over state lines. For instance, I could buy 5 rubber boas from a breeder in a state where it's legal to breed and sell them, but legally, within the state of California, I could only keep 2 of them; that's California's limit at any one time - dead or alive. By law if I have 2 legal rubber boas that breed, any excess boas have to be turned in to fish and game to then be turned over to a zoo-like establishment, school, or be destroyed. The only native snakes you are allowed to breed in CA are CA Kings, Gophers, and Rosy Boas (and then only with special permit!). And the states are all different. Crazy world! Silly people!