Substrate

[Garter_Gertie]

Here's another question. And please bear with me as I suffer from CRAFT and can't remember what some o'this stuff is called.

I want to do my substrate with a mixture ground English walnuts (for like sand), the reptile bark chips which are small and also the real bark chips which are big, and that Aspen white shredded stuff (to look like pieces of torn up tree).

I don't know my perportions yet. I'll have to figure that out. But I think, like make a "soil" mixture of the ground walnuts and small bark,then next ingredient would be the real bark chips, with the apen shredded stuff being the least.

Then I'd toss in a rocky area of small river stones (aquarium ones) and then larger rocks here and there.

What do you think?

[Garter_Gertie]

Oh! Forgot! Will be putting in some meadow grass in an area. It's stuff for rabbits to eat but looks all the world like chopped prairie.

[Zephyr]

I personally don't recommend the walnut, and all of that stuff will degrade into potting soil over time. Perhaps just go with the potting soil itself and a small layer of shredded hardwood mulch on top? :P
Also, if you're going economic then use newspaper or paper towel.

[Garter_Gertie]

Zeph, Not going economic. Going In-Living-Room-Looking-Like-Terrerium.

Potting soil. I could do that, but I'd still go with the two different sized bark and bits and pieces of the Aspen-whatever stuff.

[el lobo]

I like coconut husk, with birch logs and leaf litter.

[Garter_Gertie]

lobo, where do you get the leaf litter and how do you sterilize it?

[Zephyr]

lobo, where do you get the leaf litter and how do you sterilize it?
Grab some dead oak leaves. :P Don't use maple or any of that other junk. Oak works best for display. I "bake" mine for my roaches at around 250 degrees Fahrenheit.

**EDIT- Also for substrate, maybe reptibark with potting soil beneath. You could plant some ferns in there. I've found that garters in the wild like to hang out near wild rhubarb, so maybe you could plant one of those in there.

[el lobo]

Exactly. Definitely go with Oak. Nice and thick, looks good too! Pin Oak especialmente, pero White Oak and Red Oak look very nice!

[infernalis]

Be careful with potting soil, many contain chemical fertilizers.

Unwittingly, we used some once, our snake shed twice in 12 days!

The fertilizer was eating at it's skin:eek::eek::eek::eek:

Gertie, Have a look at one of my cages, it is only an idea, look around on forum at all the wonderful pics of everyone else's cages, and then feel free to get as creative as you want, just chose your substrate wisely.

Just judging by how much love you have for these animals, I know that if you had a baby snake die on you, it would break your heart.

Be really careful not to cook your little pets either. With Garter snakes (NO "exotics, tropicals here) they will live longer in your refrigerator than a cage that is too hot inside it.

One of the reasons Garter snakes thrive in so many places, tolerance for temperature differences! Garters are the ONLY species of snake to be found in Alaska. (But never in equatorial regions)

http://www.reformedsniper.net/1/1gravid.jpg

http://www.reformedsniper.net/1/HPIM1396.jpg

[adamanteus]

I know I bring this up with boring regularity, and I know that no one else really likes it much.... but what about slate? Impervious, wipe-clean, non pest harbouring, non ingestable, natural looking, heat retaining.... blah, blah, blah

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//537/medium/Slate_floor.jpg

[el lobo]

I think slate and shale are GORGEOUS! expensive though, unless you know where to find it...And I don't know how much she would be willing to go for the herp carpet, Wayne...I think she is going for natural and aesthetic.

[Garter_Gertie]

lobo, you're right on: natural and aesthetic.

Wayne, you've got me down, for sure! I read your thing for first time parents and as hot as my apartment [flat] is I think I'd need a cool down place, no heat until winter.

Three years ago if someone had told me I'd cry over the death of a pet snake I would have looked at them as though they had two heads. Today, yes. It would kill to loose Winnie. Even grumpy old Ripley. I can imagine what it's going to be like with my own.

I like the slate - maybe a piece or two in there. But not the whole bottom like that. Wayne, I was out having a smoke and running all this through my mind and thought about the potting soil with the vertilizer(s) in it. We're your ears burning? :D

I'd not use a lot of potting soil as I'm going to keep the plants in pots under all this stuff for ease of maintenance. Just enough to make a soil-like stuff that's scooped as easy as kitty litter. I'm really liking the idea of potting soil, reptile bark chips, gardening bark chips, a wee tiny bit of aspen shreds and then some meadow grasses.

[Zephyr]

I'm really liking the idea of potting soil, reptile bark chips, gardening bark chips, a wee tiny bit of aspen shreds and then some meadow grasses.
Make sure they're not cedar or pine. The only good chips are hardwood, aspen, and cypress.

[Garter_Gertie]

The other thing, Wayne. I've been cruising my head off and I can't find any cool pictures of "natural snake tanks," "natural snake enclosures," "vivirarium," etc. I've tried I don't know how many combinations and can't find good pics. (This is where you feel sorry for me.)

I have come up with a really cool idea for my tank! I LOVE to skulk and look for artifacts. I'm going to get like a teapot, and break it up using the largest piece as a hidey, pushed down in the 'soil.' Maybe something tin, too. You know, have like old artifact like things poking out of the 'soil'?

[el lobo]

That teapot sounds like a good idea...Make sure you try to imagine it as it will look in the viv, and not as it would look in a photoshopped picture a a broken teapot in the woods! what kind of teapot? Floral? I think I would have an 'artifact' viv for a rattlesnake, or a raccoon haha ;)

[Stefan-A]

Avoid sharp edges.

[Garter_Gertie]

I very definitely have in my head what it would look like, Caleb. I've found enuff pieces and shards of 1800's stuff to have a good idea. Yeah, floral. I'd have to dirty it up and 'age' it...

Thanks, Zeph. I knew no cedar and pine. What I'd do is get the same kind as the reptile bark but it's just a bit bigger - 2, 2.5 to 3" pieces. It's what we use in Ripley's tank.

[Garter_Gertie]

Yup. Yup. No sharp edges. May have to put some kind of caulking-like stuff on the edges, but that could be done. Thanks, Stefan.

[el lobo]

Caulking would work. you could always file it down, assuming it is ceramic.

[adamanteus]

Darn! Nobody likes my slate!:(

[Stefan-A]

It's heavy, James. :D

[adamanteus]

Yes. But it's clean, clean, clean!

[Stefan-A]

And slippery. :D And expensive if you can't get your hands on broken pieces. Otherwise I'd be using slate already.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I love your slate :P

there's a bunch of slate rock out in my backyard... in the stream and bordering he sides of it!

Now how to break it into flat pieces without murdering it...

[Garter_Gertie]

Darn! Nobody likes my slate!:(

James. I like your slate, but just not all slate. I agree. Slate on a heating pad is perfect. I just don't want to do my entire bottom in slate.

[dashnu]

Once James starts building his enclosures in bulk and lets me "test" one out I will like his slate !!

[anji1971]

I think the slate looks great, but I would also want it only in part of the tank. My snakes like to burrow into the substrate too much to take it away from them now!

[Garter_Gertie]

I'm xtremely xcited about the oak leaves. That will just be the perfect touch. I'll ask at the park today if I'll be allowed to gather some there. You're not supposed to pick, cut, gather stuff in a state park. But maybe since I work there... We'll see.

Burrow. Yup. I don't know if I can do it, but I've got pictured in my mind a kind'a crumbley mix of all this stuff - but for the leaves. I guess I'll just have to play with amounts. I don't want too much 'dirt' because I don't want the compaction, but I don't want too muhc big bark chips either. I think it will be fun to see what I come up with. Once I get the mixture to my satisfaction - or as close as possible - I'll let you know the porportions.

[drache]

James
I totally love the slate
and I never walk by construction sites without peeking in their dumpster
some day I'll find some nice pieces
my biggest problem is always transportation, with heavy stuff like that

[Garter_Gertie]

I need to post here the ingredients I've come up with - so far.

On the bottom aquarium gravel - small rounded polished river rocks.

I don't know if the rest will be in any particular order, or all mixed up and they are:

Coco Soft (kind'a leery about since it holds moisture and releases into the air. But if holds moisture - pee/poop - would be an easily scooped up ingredient.)

Peat moss

Potting soil (though I read this compacts easily. However I'd not be using a lot still may go with it/try it.)

Sphagnum moss

Bark chips (what I bought I have to take back as they're pine).

And Kaytee Natural Timothy Hay (is going to make WONDERFUL grass!).

I'm going to go the way of feeding in my hand, or in a seperate tank/container. I want soft varied stuff so they have as natural a burrowing place as possible.

Willl let you know how this turns out or if I add/remove and ingredient.

[Lori P]

I can't wait to see!!!!!

Is it done yet??

How 'bout now?????:D

[Garter_Gertie]

No! Ittiz NOT done, silly! Ittiz sitting here with the bags in the 20 gal L. You seem to have about as much patience as I do - ZIP! :D

I've got six or so weeks before Kenabec gets here. And I don't have a camera (the one at work, the woman took it off our For Sale site. But I remember her name and am going to contact her to see if she still has it. That was a different thread - the camera.)

I'm going to mess/screw around with substrate stuff. I'd LOVE to put some sand in there - Hoggies like sand. But everyone says ittiz bad. But how can that be when they're digging in it out in the wild? (Color me stupid.)

I need to still get big rocks, branches/stumps, oak leaves and bake. I'm not really worried about wet/compaction as I'm figuring I'll be mixing up a bunch o'this stuff - since it all comes in bags - and will have it on hand. When Kenabec and The Garters whizz/poop... I intend to just scoop it up with a kitty litter-thingy. Only thing is is the rocks on the bottom... Maybe I should omit those? Whatchew think?

Oh! I also need to get some plants to plant. Somewhere I saved a list of non-posineous (did I spell that rite?) plants that will work.

So, no, cutie! Ittiz NOT finished. :D

[jitami]

It sounds very nice Gertie! My mother in law set up a tarantula viv for us once and presented it with Itsy(what else does a 4 year old name a spider?) for my son's birthday. She layered the substrate and it looked very nice. I thought of doing the same for Sly and did something similar for a week or so until I realized he had mites. I switched him to paper towel then and haven't gone back to any kind of substrate. The paper towel is just so easy. But I really do love the look of a more natural substrate and I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

[Garter_Gertie]

Thanks, Tami! NOT that *my* substrate is going to stay in any kind'a layered order like what your mom's did, but... I think it will work out. Just gotta get the perportions (did I spell that rite?) correct that pleases me but is good for Kenabec/The Garters. Like I'd like a lot of peat moss as it looks like soil. But no can do "a lot." Too fine and too compactible.

I don't know. Guess we'll see! :D

[crzy_kevo]

i started using a new substrate the other day i was using grass but i noticed behind my GF's mom's shed there was some old wood being decomposed by the lovely little critters that do that so i scooped up a bunch of it baked it till dry and i find it works well its got chunks of wood and some powedered wood(i guess u can call it that) too so i like it and george doesnt seem to mind either

[Garter_Gertie]

That would be like wood chips, no? Great find! I'd think George would like anything natural you give him.

[Spiritwolf]

The breeder I got my red-sided garters from (and who I got Feisty from), recommended Carefresh small animal bedding as a substrate that is cheap, absorbent, soft, and safe for the snakes. So I tried it and I love it and the snakes love it too. WalMart makes a similar product called CritterCare which is a bit cheaper than Carefresh. These products are sold in the area of the store for rodent and small animal bedding, not in the reptile product area.

I love Carefresh/CritterCare. It isn't decorative, but it's soft, absorbent, cheap, safe, and functional. It is like small wads of compressed paper. Carefresh comes in different colors as well as plain undyed, I only use the plain undyed version (which has always been cheaper than the fancy dyed stuff every place where I've bought Carefresh!).

I put about 2 inches depth of Carefresh in the snakes enclosures and they love tunneling all around through it. I also put Carefresh in their den boxes.

There are no scents in plain Carefresh or in CritterCare, no dyes, no sharp edges, etc. I feed the snakes in separate boxes without substrate in them, but if feeding in an enclosure with substrate, I think Carefresh is much safer than any of the wood or ground hull, etc, type of substrates because Carefresh is mostly in pieces large enough that they cannot stick all over food and be ingested.

Carefresh isn't a fancy looking substrate but the snakes love it and it's inexpensive compared to the wood/nut/etc based reptile beddings and it's soft, absorbent, and safe!

[anji1971]

I switched to Carefresh in the last couple months, and I agree........it's great stuff, for all the reasons already mentioned!:)

[crzy_kevo]

ya its like easily broken wood chips and its absorbant too

[drache]

I don't know what you guys pay for carefresh, but here it's not cheap, or at least not cheap enough to use in quantity

[crzy_kevo]

find a pile of decomposing wood :)
although i have started using carefresh

[anji1971]

I don't find the Carefresh too bad pricewise.
It's a whole lot cheaper than the Reptibark, and it hides odour much better than the aspen shavings. (actually, I didn't like the smell of the aspen even without any added poo!:D)
A medium bag of carefresh is about $8, and it covered two complete cleanings of two tanks(10 & 20G), with enough left for a cleaning for the babies' tank.

[Zephyr]

I'm prefering white carefresh... shows your where the poo is and where your snakes are. lol

[Garter_Gertie]

I'm into 'natural.' Carefresh isn't my bag. Get it? :D