Collecting Gravid Females.

[adamanteus]

So, who's up for a heated debate? Shall we discuss the ethics of taking gravid females from the wild?

It seems that every day there is another thread featuring a gravid female taken from the wild, and a guessing game as to how many babies they will have. I'm not sure we should be doing/encouraging this.

Is this going to have a negative effect on local populations?
Aren't these snakes readily available captive bred?
Do we have enough trusted friends, who we know can take care of all these young when they're born?
Surely it's cleverer to raise a pair from neonates and then have a successful breeding, rather than just go out and pick up a fat female?

Comments?

[Zephyr]

I always think about this too... That's why during the summer months if I remove any eastern garter snakes, I aim for juveniles, preferably males. Oddly, I tend to find mostly gravid females in the summer. :P
What I could use as a counter-argument is that most of the time, if you remove a gravid female, you're one of the only people doing it, seeing as most people don't really go out in the wild and grab for garters as pets. And when they do, they generally let them go a few weeks later as opposed to keep them as we enthusiasts do.

[reptileparadise]

I'm not sure what the effects will be on the populations. One female 'gone from the system' shouldn't be a big deal. The problem is that it doesn't stay with just one female.
I guess around 10 or 20 females are posted here, but just imagine what 'readers' might think of this?
"hey, an easy way to earn money for my new ipod" or something like that.

I personally think its wrong to collect gravid females from the wild. For the simple reason that its not necessary. Its also possible to wait a month or two and collect non gravid females.
Collecting one female results in (indirect) collecting 10, 20 or maybe even more snakes (i know, not all of them survive)

Its hard to explain properly in english...But my main answer is...against...



Surely it's cleverer to raise a pair from neonates and then have a successful breeding, rather than just go out and pick up a fat female?

I wouldn't say cleverer...I would say faster and less thought trough

[adamanteus]

I personally think its wrong to collect gravid females from the wild. For the simple reason that its not necessary...

I agree with this. Isn't part of the reason we keep these animals is so that we can feel a sense of pride and achievement when our snakes breed in captivity?

[Snake lover 3-25]

:(:(:( well.... i believe that sooty is one of meadows babies and i am very happy to find her gravid or not... if i had not caught meadow i would prob not have discovered my love for garters.... i let 17 out of 18 of her babies go and now it seems that i have few or maybe even no garters in my area.... we have so many predators and so few snakes that they would have almost no chance of survival... i don't think that the small amount of babies that sooty will have would have ever grown to maturity... THAT is the one and only reason that i have chosen to keep/ give away the young... if she had been larger and therefore had had a larger litter then i would have chosen to release the young.... however that is not the case.:(

[Snake lover 3-25]

also i have never seen a garter locally for sale otherwise i would def. captive breed... but for now i have only 2 adult females and a male that is closely related and i have no intentions to inbreed. :(

[Lumpy]

Well, I'm as good of an example as anyone, so sure duscussion is good.

If you remember in my case, which was about a month or so ago, my wife and I were digging up a flower bed and disturbed the habitat of a Garter we had no idea was there. The flower bed sits right up against the house.

When we ran across the Eastern, other than chasing it out of the area we were working in, we left her alone. Intially, we had no plans of disturbing her. And at the time, I only knew it was a Garter snake, not it's sex, or what the heck "gravid" meant. :o

"Gary", as we jokingly called the snake, moved over to a corner of the house, and we continued working in the garden. Once in a while we'd peek to see if she had moved on. But after 2 days she hadn't moved from the spot and I felt bad that it looked like we had disturbed and confused her.

my other concern was her location. If she decided to make that her home, there was good chance that my riding mower could kill her during a pass.

There was some debate between my wife and I as to whether I should disturb her or not, but I figured let's bring her in, see if she's healthy and decide what to do from there.

That's where you guys got involved!

And...that's when I found out she was a she and gravid. Now I know a new term!

I reality, could I have put her in a box, driven her a few miles down the road to some woods and set her free? Sure, and it's a reasonable thing to do. Is/was there selfish motive to keep her? You bet. Do I think she's safer and will possibly live longer being taken care of? Without a doubt, yes. These things all went through my head debating what to do with Gary.

Now, the flipside of all this is I am a breeder, of exotic birds. And quite frankly, they are more work than a snake. Not better or worse, but different. I've raised many a clutch, both hand feeding and raising. Lots of hands on time. And baby birds don't eat on their own. You have to prepare formula, at just the right temp, and feed each, one by one with a syringe. Exotics are the same in one aspect, they are wild even when they are CB. Human hand raising helps to keep them tame and familiar with us humans. Put two hand raised exotic birds together, and they revert to being wild. Birds will always bond stronger to birds than humans. I digress tho...

So I've taken on the responsibility of keeping a WC snake. I've really left her alone in the past month not wanting to stress her too much. I'll work on handling after she has her brood. For now, I make sure her cage is clean and dry. And I keep her fed and watered.

Is this a good or bad thing? Honestly, I don't know. I've grown attached to her, and I'm sure she was even more confused sitting in an aquarium. But I've tried to make it as natural for her as I can.

If at some point I feel like I am doing more harm than good to her, then I'll let go back to the wild.

It's a good debate. Certainly when you toss in the non-domesticated aspect to it. Are we doing good? Dunno at this point.

Greg

Oh! And when she does give birth, I will offer them to folks here, keep a couple and the remaining will be released. So there's a bit of conservation there too.

[Zephyr]

I would also like to note that the majority of the snakes that people are collecting when they are gravid seem to be eastern garters, no doubt the most common on this side of the country. Also, seeing as there are laws and whatnot forbidding the sale of the species and etc, it's a lot harder for people to get CB within their states. Fortunately the sale thing isn't the case in Michigan, but then again the taste for garters isn't as widely shared.

[Gijs & Sabine]

You've got a very good point here, James!!
When I think about it I must admit I'm also against it in general. But I do understand everybody who got tempted to take a gravid home. It's great to take care of these little creatures ;)

It's difficult...... I think most people from the forum do take good care of their garters, but I'm also sure there are people who don't and only see $$ :( like Sjoerd mentioned.
So for the garters it's probably the best if everybody leave them allone. Just thinking of the stress they got into in their condition............

[dashnu]

I think I agree, taking in gravid females is not in good practice. I have even said in the past finding a gravid female would be nice but after thinking about it maybe not.. I would feel very bad if I took in a gravid female and caused issue with the young or any issues for that matter.

I plan to find a male for my non-gravid female and try to breed next year. One of the things that is really concerning to me is my local population. I want to increase my local population of snakes not decrease it. So that being said what about releasing newborns into the wild after being CB? Do the mothers stay with the snakes in the wild after birth? Part of me want to give back and this would make me feel as if I was doing so. Also going through this experience with my daughters would be an invaluable for us I think.

[adamanteus]

I have released captive born neonates (Natrix natrix) into the wild before, so I understand your thoughts on this. I agree, it would be an invaluable experience and lesson for your daughters.
There have been other members who have argued quite strongly against this kind of release... for fear of introducing pathogens into a wild population. A very good and valid argument. My feelings.... it's a nice thing to do.:)

[Snake lover 3-25]

i plan on finding a way to get a male so i can do just that... i do want to increase my pop... but 2 or3 young would be picked off very quickly and so i want to breed 2 or maybe even 3 females at one time just to release the young and hopefully increase my local pop.:D

[adamanteus]

Actually increasing the local population probably isn't going to happen... there is some reason why the population is low. That issue would need to be addressed first... but there's no denying the 'feel good factor'.

[KITKAT]

In Ohio, you have 30 days from intake of a WC snake, to release it, and during that 30 days, it must not have had ANY contact with another herp.

Beyond that, you must be licensed, and can only keep 4 WC herps of any combination of species.

And I never did find out whether last year's brood of 40 live T sirtalis were considered WC or CB, so I released them.

Did this cause a population surge? No.

Did it ensure the health of the gene pool? maybe.

So if this did not cause a population surge, what did?

My neighbor built a waterfall for her goldfish pond, and now there are more garters present around our houses than previously, with the same general population out back in the "prairie" as before.:)

I think pesticide useage, access to water, and access to secure hiding places (in other words, habitat) are key to population changes.

[el lobo]

I think if you catch a gravid garter, you should put it back! Mother nature NEEDS those babies!

[count dewclaw]

I think if you catch a gravid garter, you should put it back! Mother nature NEEDS those babies!

But what if there is the risk of killing the gravid female with a lawnmower (by mistake of course) before the young are born?

[infernalis]

Very good point James, and my thoughts exactly. Nonetheless I did not want to enter your forum and start judging people, so I just throw what I have learned out there for you, and hope it helps.

If anyone remembers the tale of our first dekay breeding encounter, I felt morally obligated to care for these babies, we did so and when they had fed all winter, grown to a sub adult size, released all but 1.

the second time, it was in fact a gravid female snatched up off the ground, didn't really know it until one day neonates started popping out, again same practice, head start, then release.

Third time and to avoid repeating, the current gravid gal, same deal.

Now here is where you all may think I am a weirdo, if the weather causes the wetlands distress, and they start to dry out, we pump millions of gallons of water from a nearby stream to keep the wetlands wet.

the slug / worm / fish and amphibian populations are all very important to us, so when we have spare time, we work to help out. One year I spent a lot on fish food, the creek had all but dried up, all the fish were in one small water hole, and would have mass died off from starvation.

Bleeding heart Wayne ran off to the farm store and bought pond fish food, fed them every day until the rain replenished the water. (no wonder our nerodia sipideon population is so strong)

I know first hand that this effort has been successful, we have encountered familiar animals long after release.

These encounters have also PROVED without any doubt, we never really "tame" our snakes, we condition them to tolerate us. I once picked up a snake that was raised eating from my hand, he had only been in the wild for a couple months, he flattened right out, reared back and started striking.

Could it be? my precious hand fed baby hates me for making him move out? No not really, once he was free of human interference, natural instincts returned, they HAD TO if this animal was going to survive.

Adopting out babies to other forum members is kinda cool, in moderation.

The cretins who scoop up wild snakes and then sell them in classifieds, that bothers me immensely. However I am guilty of buying a couple.

I have picked up and admired many gravid gals this spring, all but one were placed exactly where I found them.

The only reason that big plump eastern is chillin in an enclosure is that since she has such bright orange edges to her scales, I would like to see the babies.

My plans for the litter? Most will go right back where they would have been if I left mom alone.

as far as the idea of pumping up a population, please understand that there is a reason garters have such big litters, Birds, Milk Snakes, raccoons, and many other carnivores consider baby snakes a delicacy.

So in nature, maybe 10 percent of the litter will become adults.

The possibility of introducing pathogens is exactly why our neonates from the wild moms are only allowed to eat prey that we gather from exactly where the snake belongs, the only microbes ingested would be the same exact ones ingested out back.

Animals that we keep however get vet care whenever needed, so I will feed items purchased at stores to them.

I treasure the knowledge gleaned, and am confident that the neonates that cost me a chunk of cash this year will do better than if I had entered blindly into raising them without the education.

Yes any snake passing away sucks, but if I had to see one choke on substrate to learn what not to do, I'd rather it not be a flame that cost over a hundred bucks to buy or it's Melanistic mate.

My advice to anyone who will be releasing this year, chose your site carefully, look around is there ample foods available? is there an owl nest close by? Is there a clutch of milks near that will hatch soon and eat your babies? all sound considerations before just dumping babies on the ground.......

http://www.reformedsniper.net/snakes/images/xena_050.jpg

[adamanteus]

Nice, considered post Wayne.. thank you.
When I asked this question and started this thread, I wasn't being judgemental or 'pointing the finger' at anyone in particular. It was simply to open a discussion on the 'deliberate' collection of gravid females. I know there are sometimes special circumstances (potential lawnmower accidents etc). The question was "How do we feel about the deliberate collecting of gravid Garter Snakes, whether this be to boost our collection or to try to make some money"?
I just feel that the gravid females you see, represent next year's (and the following year's) population, and should be left alone, whenever possible.

[anji1971]

I have taken gravid females from the wild. However, with the first one, I didn't know how to tell male from female or gravid from non. The kids found a snake, and I thought it would make a cool pet for us. Little did I know the addiction that was to come.
When I brought Chili home, I knew there was a good chance she'd be gravid, just because of the time of year, but since I already had a female, and wanted a companion for her, I needed another female. Buying snakes is not in my budget and probably won't be for quite some time. So I caught one. If Deejay had been a male, then that's what I would have looked for and brought home. Simple as that.
Now that she's had her babies, I plan on releasing most of them back into their natural habitat. I know not all will make it, but if even two or three do, then I've returned more than I've taken.
I'm not interested in breeding snakes- ever. I just want some nice-looking specimens that I can get some enjoyment from, and hopefully provide a nice safe life for. Someday,when finances permit, I will buy other species, and expand my collection. I love the little creatures, and can't imagine life without any now.

[infernalis]

Nice, considered post Wayne.. thank you.
When I asked this question and started this thread, I wasn't being judgemental or 'pointing the finger' at anyone in particular.

James, never thought you were.:D

I will be willing to bet, it was food for thought and some minds will be thinking!

I can just tell by the collective personality of this group of people, that the welfare of these snakes is important. More so than making money from them. That's why I spend so much time here.

On the very same day my babies arrived, I posted here and there(ahem)
within moments folks here all had at least one friendly comment.

That post still sit "there" and has not even gleaned one reply yet, not one.:eek:

can I ask you something? Adam Ant fan?

[adamanteus]

can I ask you something? Adam Ant fan?

Dear me, no! I chose my name for Crotalis adamanteus .... the Eastern Diamondback Rattlesnake... the best Rattler I ever kept!:)

Plus, I think it kind of suits me.....

Impervious (http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/IMPERVIOUS) to pleas (http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/PLEA), persuasion (http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/PERSUASION), requests (http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/REQUEST), reason (http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/REASON)
"he is adamant in his refusal (http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/REFUSAL) to change (http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/CHANGE) his mind (http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/MIND)"
- adamantine (http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/ADAMANTINE), inexorable (http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/INEXORABLE), intransigent (http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/INTRANSIGENT)
Adamant and similar words are used to refer to any especially hard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardness) substance, whether composed of diamond (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond), some other gemstone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemstone), or some type of metal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal). Both adamant and diamond derive from the Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language) word αδαμας (adamas), meaning "untameable". Adamantite and adamantium (a metallic name derived from the Neo-Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Latin) ending -ium) are also common variants.

[infernalis]

See that, until now I never knew the Latin scientific name for Eastern Diamondbacks:)

[jitami]

Can I just say that there have been some excellent, thought provoking, discussions the last few days. I'm loving it and just soaking it all in.

Personally, I have thought of looking for a gravid female, raising babies, and then releasing them. My first thought was actually to find a native non-gravid female to pair with my male and release any young that may result. However, in California, it seems that "propagation" of any native reptile requires a license. I don't remember all of the ins and outs, but after reading the fish and game regulations I came to the conclusion that collecting a gravid female would fill my desire to raise young, still enable me to release all but one or two of those young along with the female, and have a relatively clear conscious that I did not damage the native population. Other Californians please feel free to correct me if you interpreted the regulations differently. It's definitely not something to be taken lightly and perhaps I'm being selfish, but I would much rather produce young native garters to release than to purchase non natives and then have to worry about whether the resulting babies are in good homes, etc.

I hope that made sense. I'm definitely still learning and my opinions are still forming :)

[Sid]

My personal feeling is that anyone taking from the wild for profit is wrong. We see it very frequently in the spring and summer ads related to snakes for sale. I did keep a WC gravid Eastern last year that was rescued from a neighbors yard. She had been hit with a stick and needed help, which she received. Later she had 9 babies, only 5 of them alive. I kept one and released the other 4 as well as the mom. If I were to find a very unusual female in the wild, I may very well keep it and if it is gravid release the babies.

The shorter version is that I think its wrong to remove gravid females from the wild, especially for profit.

[Zephyr]

My personal feeling is that anyone taking from the wild for profit is wrong. We see it very frequently in the spring and summer ads related to snakes for sale. I did keep a WC gravid Eastern last year that was rescued from a neighbors yard. She had been hit with a stick and needed help, which she received. Later she had 9 babies, only 5 of them alive. I kept one and released the other 4 as well as the mom. If I were to find a very unusual female in the wild, I may very well keep it and if it is gravid release the babies.

The shorter version is that I think its wrong to remove gravid females from the wild, especially for profit.Definitely agree on the profit bit.

[infernalis]

That is why I have not purchased any "normal" red sided garters.

I have wanted at least one or two for a long while, but all the advertisers are grabbing them up and then want 50 bucks for it, plus another 50 to ship it. I refuse to support that.

Now for my non Garter animals, My Cyclophiops Major (Asian Green Snake) is a WC from China, There is no husbandry data (Google and try) and very little specifics available on this species.

The importers pass on this species because most people wind up with a dead snake in short order, cry robbery and demand refunds.

Using only common sense, Limon has thrived in my house for months so far, he eats every day, shed for me 3 times and is growing. (The bugger is already 3 and a half feet now.)

If I can get the guy to procure me a female, I want to try and get them to lay a clutch for me. So far this animal has been a dream, I allowed him to chose what he wants, and then went from there.

I have a hard time coping with people who raid ball python, monitor and iguana nests and hatch the eggs, sell the babies to anyone, weather or not they are capable of taking care of it, and will gladly take your money again when it dies.

[enigma200316]

I agree to that this forum has changed, becoming an every day run of the mill reptile forum and yes complete with the flamming and starting of (BS)
and I'll say once again, you people that say it is not right to take wild snakes should think a minute if it were not for that than there would be no captive breed snakes for they had to catch some from the wild to begin the industry........so anyway since you can't put anything on here any more without being judged I will let you all know now I'm leaving the forum, and best wishes to you all.......bye bye:(

[GartersRock]

Sorry to see you go! =(
And on the subject. I stand that taking large amounts from the wild to sell for profit can definently be questionable. But individuals (esp breeders who breed for good, ethical reasons) who take from the wild in small quanitys is fine. And a good thing, for as enigma200316 says. All CB originally came from the wild and CB garters really aren't that easy to come by...
That being said. Everyone is fully entitled to their own opinions.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I've only ever taken two females knowing they were gravid, and one was my hypo (btw i am almost positive she is gravid this year) and the other is my erythristic. My large WC eastern female I caught earlier this year, i had no idea was gravid, but, she is now! One of my males may have bred her when I set up the community eastern cage though. My little brother caught me a garter snake that he found in someone's garage, I have had her since early march and lo and behold she is also carrying little ones. I held on to her when my brother brought her to me because she had some scale rot which has since been healing well.

If I find an unusual snake again, (like how i found my hypo) i will keep it regardless of male or female. It was actually convienient that my hypo was gravid at the time I found her, it gave me a bit of a head start in proving out her genetics in these years to come.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I agree to that this forum has changed, becoming an every day run of the mill reptile forum and yes complete with the flamming and starting of (BS)
and I'll say once again, you people that say it is not right to take wild snakes should think a minute if it were not for that than there would be no captive breed snakes for they had to catch some from the wild to begin the industry........so anyway since you can't put anything on here any more without being judged I will let you all know now I'm leaving the forum, and best wishes to you all.......bye bye:(

oh man..... :(

[infernalis]

Gee this topic stirred up the septic.

I don't think anyone found fault with breeders collecting fresh blood???

I think anyone here would dive on a wild "morph" crawling on the ground.

Myself included. Male or female, gravid or otherwise.

A wild hypo/amal/mel or whatever is a true gem, I think James post was more to get us thinking....

[anji1971]

That's all I thought it was, too............just a topic to see how we all felt about it, and not necessarily a judgement. :confused:
As I said, I have taken gravid females, for my own reasons, and I don't feel judged or criticized by this thread at all. I think when we post topics like this it gives each and every one of us some insight into what works for everyone else, and something to think about as well. I'm certainly not about to run out and release my female out of guilt, nor take it personally if some of our other members don't agree with why I have her, any more than I would give them a hard time for what they do.
I hate to think we'd lose a valuable member from a misunderstanding.

[adamanteus]

I agree to that this forum has changed, becoming an every day run of the mill reptile forum and yes complete with the flamming and starting of (BS)
and I'll say once again, you people that say it is not right to take wild snakes should think a minute if it were not for that than there would be no captive breed snakes for they had to catch some from the wild to begin the industry........so anyway since you can't put anything on here any more without being judged I will let you all know now I'm leaving the forum, and best wishes to you all.......bye bye:(

I think you have misunderstood the topic here, Justin. We're not talking about the collecting of wild Garters in general, but rather the deliberate taking of gravid females and whether or not that is a harmful practice.
It's a shame you think it's BS, personally I thought it was an interesting and thought provoking topic..... and no one has been flamed.
Please read my first post in this thread again before you decide to leave us, I'm sure you will see that no one is judging anyone, we're just talking to each other.

Sometimes we all need to sit back and reassess what we're doing, just to make sure we're heading in the right direction.

[Stefan-A]

So, who's up for a heated debate? Shall we discuss the ethics of taking gravid females from the wild?
With pleasure.


Is this going to have a negative effect on local populations?
Yes. The loss per captured female is one captured female plus her offspring. For all you know, you're taking a unique set of genes out of the natural world. If the offspring is released, their chances of survival are worse than if they were born in the wild, so it's only a partial compensation to release them.


Aren't these snakes readily available captive bred?
I don't think they are. In terms of numbers, sure, but not in terms of a diversity of species, or morphs. Or bloodlines. But, I believe that the capture of wild snakes should be left to serious breeders, which can by breeding the wild caught snakes provide 1000 people (arbitrary number, but you get the point) with snakes, without having to remove 1000 snakes from the wild.

And if you do catch a snake, you'd do the remaining wild ones a favour by breeding the ones you caught and rather than releasing the offspring, you should sell them. Make sure that you answer the demand, so that as many wild ones as possible will be left alone.

[Loren]

Can I just say that there have been some excellent, thought provoking, discussions the last few days. I'm loving it and just soaking it all in.

Personally, I have thought of looking for a gravid female, raising babies, and then releasing them. My first thought was actually to find a native non-gravid female to pair with my male and release any young that may result. However, in California, it seems that "propagation" of any native reptile requires a license. I don't remember all of the ins and outs, but after reading the fish and game regulations I came to the conclusion that collecting a gravid female would fill my desire to raise young, still enable me to release all but one or two of those young along with the female, and have a relatively clear conscious that I did not damage the native population. Other Californians please feel free to correct me if you interpreted the regulations differently. It's definitely not something to be taken lightly and perhaps I'm being selfish, but I would much rather produce young native garters to release than to purchase non natives and then have to worry about whether the resulting babies are in good homes, etc.

I hope that made sense. I'm definitely still learning and my opinions are still forming :)

Actually, just for your info, it is also technically illegal in Ca. to release any captive kept or captive born animal back into the wild without written consent from the Ca fish and Game.
:)

[infernalis]

James & Stefan, I just read the words of two very WISE individuals.

[Stefan-A]

That's not good for my ego, Wayne.

[infernalis]

Did you want me to say a wise man and a grump?:D

[adamanteus]

Stefan, I think Wayne meant to say WIDE, not WISE!:D

[SpyrotheGartersnake]

i think it wrong to take gravid females from the wild. from us taking them from the wild that would become a decrease of the wild population and a increase of captive population. plus we need wild garter snakes they help reduce the population of mice,frogs,worms,fish and and many others. now if we were to keep taking garters from the wild there would be a major increase in the populations of mice,frogs,worms,and fish. and we couldn't release captive bred into the wild because they wouldn't know how to survive

[Stefan-A]

Perhaps more importantly, garters are an important food source for a lot of species, including frogs, fish, birds and other snakes.

[reptileparadise]

And they are predators offcourse. Keeping the frog/insect and maybe a small part of mammals under control


*whoops* Spyro mentioned this already

[infernalis]

we couldn't release captive bred into the wild because they wouldn't know how to survive

I once thought that way, as I mentioned earlier on in this thread, seen first hand that this is not true.

Xena has a pearly pink belly, not extremely rare, yet unusual enough that after raising 20+ some odd babies from her I noticed that every single one was born with the same pearly pink belly.

They were released last year at the beginning of September. 3 weeks later I found the first example, crawling across a pathway, I picked it up and immediately recognized it as one of Xena's litter, and the thing is this little snake had a very full tummy from goring itself on the plentiful slug supply, and without me rationing out the food, for once was able to eat its fill.

The second and third encounters were this spring, both were healthy (except one had some battle scars) and seemingly doing well.

One was also found severed in half by a bird who only ate the top 50 percent and dropped what was left in the creek, needless to say, I was bummed out a little, had to accept that nature is as nature does.

Natural instincts are very powerful, even when an animal that has been domesticated for centuries is forced back into the wild, many will revert back to the original wild state very quickly.

One example is "coy-dogs" some idiot throws a dog out of a car in the woods, Rover has been a family pet his whole life, suddenly will join a pack of coyotes and breed with them.

[Thamnophis]

If on a location there is a healthy population of a snakespecies, a few gravid specimen that are taken away will not harm the population, I think.

When the population is already on risk, than I would say... hands off.

Or, when the young are born, keep one or two yourself and release mom and the rest of the babies on the spot where you caught it.

[Stefan-A]

Natural instincts are very powerful, even when an animal that has been domesticated for centuries is forced back into the wild, many will revert back to the original wild state very quickly.
Not quite the original state. They do retain a great deal of the original behavior patterns and instincts, but some of those instincts inevitably get lost over the millennia. But I agree with the point you're making.

[jitami]

Actually, just for your info, it is also technically illegal in Ca. to release any captive kept or captive born animal back into the wild without written consent from the Ca fish and Game.
:)

Thank you for that info Loren. Will definately have to do more thinking before adding to my garter collection. This forum is a wonderful source of information and I'm greatful to have found it! (thanks again stefan!)

[Zephyr]

And of course the price of CB and shipping has to be calculated as one of the biggest reasons to take from the wild. Hence is why I may be offering some of my eastern babies to good homes for little or nothing. :P

[adamanteus]

@Kyle... Well done, that man! (in a very English accent):D

[Zephyr]

@Kyle... Well done, that man! (in a very English accent):D*Bows.* I try. :P

[charles parenteau]

3 wc gravid flame .one is 30 inches long.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/3flamesjuin08005.jpg">http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/3flamesjuin08005.jpg (http://s151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/?action=view&current=3flamesjuin08005.jpg)http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/mai-juin2008082.jpg">http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/mai-juin2008082.jpg (http://s151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/?action=view&current=mai-juin2008082.jpg)http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/mai-juin2008168.jpg">http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/mai-juin2008168.jpg (http://s151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/?action=view&current=mai-juin2008168.jpg)

[charles parenteau]

oops something wrong happened sorry about that,me and technology is two different things ,more pics soon.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/mai-juin2008181.jpg (<a href=)">http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/mai-juin2008181.jpg (http://s151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/?action=view&current=mai-juin2008181.jpg)

[infernalis]

Sweet, grumble grumble ha! (I'm so jealous I could scream):D

Incredible finds....

[anji1971]

Charles, those flames are gorgeous!
Now I'm really upset that I won't be getting out to Quebec this summer.........:mad::(

[charles parenteau]

HOnestly .i do collect gravid female,but i rellease them in the wild at the same location.
years after year I can see that thoses female are still alive and healthy.I n my photos there is one female that I caught 2 years ago ,still alive and good shape.I fed here with natural food (frog,toad, worms).

The 30 inches female i caught this years will return to the wild with her babies at the same location...you never know what the babies will look like,hope to have high red or orange.I keep babies because there is no effect on population .
Babies usually dies at 95/100 before reaching maturity.that why adult specimen are so important.

I do that since 1995 and I dont think is that bad...but I dont encourage theis if your an amateur without experience!
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/3flamesjuin08005.jpg">http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/3flamesjuin08005.jpg (http://s151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/?action=view&current=3flamesjuin08005.jpg)

[Spiritwolf]

when you read that the lifespan of a garter in the wild is only from one to three years, you may be doing that garter a favor by taking her from the wild. You may do nature an even bigger service if you release some of the youngsters back to the wild after they have been given a good start.

[Spiritwolf]

what a pretty garter...wish my adult girl was that colorful...my drab girl certainly has a colorful personality though, to make up for her plain green striped appearance.

[Spiritwolf]

I would rather see someone collect a few snakes from the wild (if they manage to find them, I've never found a snake when purposely hunting them, those I found were accidental rescue finds...better they live here in their cushy tank than to have ended up under lawnmower blades. What I think is heinous is people who kill snakes for no reason except to kill it just because it's a snake. I think that all the snakes collected from the wild by enthusiasts, is a number probably far smaller than the number of snakes killed by snake haters.

[Stefan-A]

I think that all the snakes collected from the wild by enthusiasts, is a number probably far smaller than the number of snakes killed by snake haters.
Indeed it is a smaller number, but it's added to the number of snakes killed.

[Snake lover 3-25]

You may do nature an even bigger service if you release some of the youngsters back to the wild after they have been given a good start.

so what would happen if i let the wc mother go and raised the babies till the end of summer???? in your opinion would this give them a better survival rate???

[infernalis]

We have released many a head started snake, and I still find them from time to time out back.

I STRONGLY feel it does a service, but ONLY if you have an ample food supply source. Releasing a bunch of babies in an area without sufficient food is not so good.

Our property has several "dens" for winter, and from my observations the population sticks close by, indicated by repeat encounters of the same animals.

[Snake lover 3-25]

hmmmmm.... we have thousands of new toads..... and tons of minnows along with a creek.... but i have never seen a large or even a smell group of snakes coming out of a den....... i'lll post pics of my area tomorrow if it's nice and maybe you can help me determine where to release???:D

[Garter_Gertie]

Somewhere in the park Dave knows of a den where the garters come out wriggling. It's a very closely guarded secret. He was going to show me this year and we were going to watch, but time and memories got away from us both. Hopefully we'll make it in time next year. At the very least it's good to know I'm very close to one when I work and we have one!

CRIPES! Winnie was headed in that general direction last late summer! I bet that's where she was headed!

[anji1971]

I know where the snakes in my 'searching grounds' congregate immediately after brumation, but I've yet to get out early enough to be able to pinpoint where their dens are. The snakes themselves seem to keep it a closely guarded secret!;)
I can only hope my soon-to-be-released little squigglys can figure it out when it's time.

[Zephyr]

I know where the snakes in my 'searching grounds' congregate immediately after brumation, but I've yet to get out early enough to be able to pinpoint where their dens are. The snakes themselves seem to keep it a closely guarded secret!;)
I can only hope my soon-to-be-released little squigglys can figure it out when it's time.
I recall pheromones playing somewhat of a major role in the process. :P

[Loren]

so what would happen if i let the wc mother go and raised the babies till the end of summer???? in your opinion would this give them a better survival rate???
I have a thought on this- but you might not like it Shanley :)

I think that if raising animals for release, handling should be seldom to none, as making them unafraid of one potential predator may make them less warry of others, and they might be more likely to be eaten. In other words, soon-to-be wild animals should be raised as wild as possible.
Just something to chew on :)
A few meals should sure help them out though- in my opinion.

[Snake lover 3-25]

yeah.... lol that's why i have sooty!!! lol jk.... but as soon as she has her babies then i can handle them instead!!!! bc hers will not be released:D

[Garter_Gertie]

I recall pheromones playing somewhat of a major role in the process. :P

I may want to see the snakes in the spring, but I'll be danged if I'm gonna stick my patoot in the air with my nose to the ground, crawling around sniffing for pheromones...

It just ain't gonna happen.

[Spiritwolf]

Many times, I have gone to the woods looking for snakes, turned over countless big logs, etc, and found absolutely nothing.

The two I did find last year, were both found by accident when I was out walking in my back yard and the adjacent field, and picked them up before mowers could run over them. Funny that I found two by accident yet all the many times I've searched to try to find snakes on purpose ended with me going home empty handed (except for a few plants I wanted to identify and a couple of fluorescent golf balls I found in the field!)

JC, my first of the two above-mentioned rescues, was gravid when I got her although it was awhile before I realized it. The day I got her, I started researching garters online and figured out she was female. It wasn't til later, when she began getting more girth in spite of the fact she didn't eat anything at all from the time I first got her, until the day after she delivered 20 babies!

Four of the babies were stillborn, I lost a few more (no idea why, except I found them dead in their water and their water dish was shallow and had a rock in the middle so they could easily get in and out of the water!), and when the rest had grown some, I released them back to the wild because they were just ordinary dark with light green striping like their mother is, except one that was stillborn and was a golden-green color (I wished that one had lived coz it was pretty and different).

I figured by releasing JC's kids back to the wild after giving them a good start in life, I paid nature back for my keeping JC. After all, if I hadn't picked her up that day, she probably would have been hit by the lawnmower. (The same day, JC only a short time after I picked her up, paid me back for her rescue bigtime, as recounted in my story "Meeting Jesus" that I posted a few months ago)

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Perhaps more importantly, garters are an important food source for a lot of species, including frogs, fish, birds and other snakes.

Well, I guess I'll join the party and say "Leave the gravid WC's to nature." I understand extreme situations (lawnmowers, rescues), but the bottom line is we have no true understanding over whether or not releasing babies from gravid WC mothers will do good or harm. The cycles of nature, of individual species are far more complex than most of us can imagine. If we give the babies a head start and release them into the wild, there is ALWAYS the concern of pathogens, seclusive diets, and (very importantly) the current impact of any introduction of newcomers to an existing population. Timing in nature is often "everything". Here in NW California, raptors, shore birds, predatory mammals, larger fish, snakes and frogs all make meals of baby garters at "strategic" times of the year. Is anyone here well-versed in the seasonal cycles of the predator/prey complex in their local area? Wildlife conservation and management are a challenging beast! Don't think you are making things better with random assumptions!

All I can advise is: Leave the gravids alone! If you go for WC's, start with babies and choose patience before obsession when it comes to all breeding projects! Also, try to stick with CB's if you can... and try to avoid commercial monsters like Petco! They are the epitome of apathy, when it comes to herp knowledge and maintenance.

Steve

[Loren]

If you go for WC's, start with babies and choose patience before obsession when it comes to all breeding projects! Also, try to stick with CB's if you can... and try to avoid commercial monsters like Petco! They are the epitome of apathy, when it comes to herp knowledge and maintenance.

Steve

I agree, while I do collect, I always prefer to collect young, and take captive bred any chance I can, although I have taken some adults. Unfortunately, since my area of interest is in natives, I cant buy cb, and dont get too many oportunities to have them given to me.
I am thrilled that I didnt have to remove a ca. mountain king from the wild but was able to "adopt" one that needed a home(even though the original owner had most likely collected it). My great basin gopher, among others, was born in captivity as well, and it is by far the most gentle gopher snake I have.
I also agree with the Petco statement. I'm sure there are some individual employees here and there that are well educated/experienced, but as a whole, I am far less than impressed with the chain's reputation for reptile care.

[charles parenteau]

One thing for sure,I do collect gravid garter because I m sure that its dont matter if you doing thing the right way.Since 1987 i have garter 8 years old .

I spend so much time in the field,catching and observing garter,at one spot I know were the dens is were they feed ,were they sun bask were they give birth almost everything at this spot , everytime of year I know what they doing, almost my big vivarium.

They don't die I see those female year after year If iDont caught them.
And they dont seems to be in bad shape.they bask at the same spot.everyone seems happy.I give them couple toad ,frog,worms ,and release in wild.

Im selective with babies so i dont keep them all ,only 2 or 3 most red or orange.Other babies release were wild female give birth,after 3-5 earth worms...never mixt garter snake population.(pathogene...)
I don't know what other people do with gravid garter.Maybe its not good the way they do it. that why I don't encourage this ...
I only have 6 garter snakes here,3 are wc female,(not an obcession)
I dont sell any garter...Oh my god my english i so bad today i can't explain myself ....in this picture you can see the same female from my last post .picture take in smmer 2006 and i collect here again in 2008 .If i do something bad ,I do it well so It don't hurt too much!!!
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/redsancf00007.jpg">http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/redsancf00001.jpg">

[adamanteus]

Charles, je trouve vous parle tres bien l'anglais.
You make yourself very clear, I think we all understand exactly what you're saying.:)

[charles parenteau]

TAnks I appreciate , Im sorry about the pictures I dont know why that happen (double pics).If you can help me about it.Adamanteus your french is good! :)

[adamanteus]

Pictures sorted! Thank you for the compliment, mais je comprend un peu l'francaise, pas tres bien. Je suis debutant en francaise.:o

[Snake lover 3-25]

wow how many languages do you speak????!!!!!!:D:D

[adamanteus]

Obviously, Charles speaks and writes both English and French far better than I do. Our very own Stefan-A is fluent in about 500 languages. I'm just clumsy in French, but I try!:rolleyes:

[Snake lover 3-25]

i didn't notice... but maybe that's because i speak spainsh!!!:eek::p

[adamanteus]

D'ailleurs, Charles, vous avez de tres beaux serpents.:)

[charles parenteau]

hehe Merci beaucoup!!Your french is very good .wild flame usually look like here on my last picture.I love here green-yellow vertebral strippe.

[adamanteus]

Merci bien. Un jour, quand j'aurai plus de temps, je l'espère d'apprendre à parler le français couramment.
I love the 'Flame' morph. I hope to get a CB pair from Alan Francis this year... very high red!:D

[Snake lover 3-25]

lol wow french looks NOTHING like english!!!!!:D

[adamanteus]

Vive la difference!:D

[Snake lover 3-25]

lol okay did you say very different???:D

[crzy_kevo]

long live difference

[Snake lover 3-25]

ooooo lol wow i suck!!!!:D

[adamanteus]

long live difference

Long live THE difference.

[crzy_kevo]

oh i was close enough lol

[Snake lover 3-25]

anyone know latin??? because i sure dont!!!!:D:D:p

[charles parenteau]

Another wc garter but male*,he died just after brumation,supposed to mate Dr.Phil Blais huge female ,Too bad for me no cb garter snake for this years.double pic again sorry:(
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/fo235008.jpg">http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/fo235007.jpg">

[Snake lover 3-25]

awwww he was cute!!! how'd he die???:(

[adamanteus]

That is a lovely looking snake... too bad that he died!:(
Charles, il n'est pas très souvent, nous vous voir sur le forum. Peut-être est-ce parce que la langue de différence? Je vais toujours essayer de répondre quand je peux. Il serait bien d'avoir de vos nouvelles plus souvent.

Comme vous pouvez le voir, mon français est très mauvais ... mais tant que nous comprendre les uns les autres ...

[charles parenteau]

I dont know for sure,He was in my friend collection for breeding .Seems to be in good shape ,no sign of illness or whatever dr Phil did autopsy and nothing is conclusive! too bad so my 3 strippes flame project is for next year.. gonna show you some pic of my futur star...soon

[adamanteus]

Looking forward to those pics, Charles!

[charles parenteau]

James your french is getting better on each post ;) I left the forum for a while because of a couple of disapointement ,about breeding project...now everything is on a good way ...gonna show you something very red a the end of summer..so im gonna be there...

[adamanteus]

Maybe in the summer of 2010 I will have good news about Flames to post.:D

[jitami]

Beautiful snakes Charles! Sorry that the male died, but I too will be looking forward to more pictures later this summer!

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

I love the 'Flame' morph. I hope to get a CB pair from Alan Francis this year... very high red!:D

Oh, this forum has done it now! All this talk about flame garters! And now I want one! I feel so guilty! (I have quite the zoo!)

Alan Francis is a real nice guy. My friend Brad and I had the opportunity to coordinate a herp hike with Alan, Philippe Blais, and Chris Mattison this last April near Fern Canyon (Prairie Creek Redwoods State Park). 10 species of reptiles and amphibians (3 species of garters and lots of them!)... probably the most satisfying herp trip since my trip to Tuscon, AZ in 2005. Herp pics from the Fern Canyon trip are dated April 26th and posted on my website under individual species links. I am quite positive that Alan, Philippe and of course Chris got the best pics!

[infernalis]

""All this talk about flame garters! And now I want one! I feel so guilty!""

I did once too, now I feel the dent in my wallet:eek:

http://www.danceswithreptiles.com/extreme.jpg

[charles parenteau]

this is a big female.love her lost vertebral strippe.
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/GetAttachment2-1.jpg">http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/GetAttachment2-1.jpg (http://s151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/?action=view&current=GetAttachment2-1.jpg)

[Zephyr]

Wow! What a beauty! :D

[GartersRock]

Oh! Very nice!

[Stefan-A]

Very nice indeed. :) Special.

[Snaky]

That's a very nice flame :)

[reptileparadise]

Very nice flame!
Is she just fed, or is she just very fat?

[charles parenteau]

Gravid shes so fat...she in my friend home for this summer,in my collection in august ,gonna show you more pic soon...

[infernalis]

She is a very pretty snake Charles.:D

[brain]

If we give the babies a head start and release them into the wild, there is ALWAYS the concern of pathogens, seclusive diets, and (very importantly) the current impact of any introduction of newcomers to an existing population.

... and try to avoid commercial monsters like Petco! They are the epitome of apathy, when it comes to herp knowledge and maintenance. Steve

First, Steve I don’t think the weather is going to allow us to come to your lecture, it’s still snowing here. :mad: For sure in April :D:D

OK, taking no offence but just to add my two cents, concerning releasing snakes.

If the herp was a morph wouldn’t Mother Nature correct this? “It is the weakest link, good bye.” :rolleyes:

So I collect a 0.1, she has her little critters, I let her go back to the area she was caught.

Now I have decreased the local population by what 10? Out of how many other gravid 0.1’s are in the area and how many other herpers are doing the same in this area (not a lot I’m sure).

As I have released her back into her world I just don’t see the harm?

Given these conditions while I have her;
1. her own outdoor habitat
2. provided aspen bedding
3. local hide and branches
4. water bowl, I am on a well
5. I provide her guppies, local slugs and WC salmon

My question in general is: “What pathogens do I expose her and/or the environment to?”

[Stefan-A]

If the herp was a morph wouldn’t Mother Nature correct this? “It is the weakest link, good bye.” :rolleyes:
Not necessarily and that's not how it works. The mutation might well have been beneficial.


Now I have decreased the local population by what 10? Out of how many other gravid 0.1’s are in the area and how many other herpers are doing the same in this area (not a lot I’m sure).

As I have released her back into her world I just don’t see the harm?
Doesn't matter, those 10 get added to the overall loss to the population and it gets subtracted from the number of available prey animals (predators need those garters, too). And you've stressed out the female and relocated her and just simply decreased her chances of survival.


My question in general is: “What pathogens do I expose her and/or the environment to?”Who knows. That's the general answer.

[brain]

TY for the inputs.

I believe if it is a morph i.e. albino, then it would not last in the wild.

And there is no information on “What pathogens do I expose her and/or the environment to?”

Who knows. That's the general answer. Humm, sound like a scare tactic to me. I’m not going to deplete the species, they are not on the endangered list in Washington.

I’ll collect and release and we can have our options?

[Stefan-A]

TY for the inputs.

I believe if it is a morph i.e. albino, then it would not last in the wild.
I'd say that's likely, in the case of the albino. Still, it'd be a meal for a predator.


Humm, sound like a scare tactic to me. I’m not going to deplete the species, they are not on the endangered list in Washington.It's not, the point is just that it's a very real risk and frankly, I don't have a list of pathogens that can pose a threat and I obviously can't make any kind of statement regarding what pathogens you specifically could spread into the wild population. The point is, it's a very serious risk and I personally don't believe that it's worth it. Feel free to disagree.

None of the garters are really doing great either and it's going to get worse, especially considering what's happening to amphibians all over the world and habitat loss. Even if they're not on the endangered list, why act in a way that brings them closer to getting on that list?




Edit: Here's a link to another discussion we've had. http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/3683-disturbing-trend-really-disturbing.html

[brain]

Feel free to disagree.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/3683-disturbing-trend-really-disturbing.html


Yes I did read this but keep quite.

Again TY for the inputs and views. ;)

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

And there is no information on “What pathogens do I expose her and/or the environment to?”


I can kind of see your point... but... do you keep other snakes? if so, you automatically risk spreading anything your current snakes may be carrying and not showing to her just by contacting them, and then her or vice versa. So saying that you are never exposing her to anything bad would be impossible since you would need a 100% sterile environment where you never ever contact her personally to be successful in zero exposure. Bacteria, viruses, fungi, and parasite eggs are all invisible to the naked eye, it's as simple as you mess around with another animal in your house (or out of it, for that matter) that happens to be carrying something and you automatically risk possibly, passing. Whether she would actually catch it, whether she fights it off, whether she carries it without showing it and then when she is released it wipes out a small population, that is all left to chance and unseen circumstances. To wonder about what real harm you are doing is perfectly okay, but to deny that there is a *posibility* of you causing it would be rather silly. Never say never!

The other major point of capturing, keeping, and then releasing a snake that people often miss is the amount of stress and confusion it puts the snak through. Stress lowers her immune system, causing her to be more susceptible to picking up things that she might normall fight off. When you set her free, she is obviously confused and even if you release her exactly where you found her, she is going to spend a good bit of time crawling around aimlessly trying to figure out what the heck is going on and that is the time where she is very likely to be eaten and thus you are in fact, reducing her chance to survive by a great deal by degradation of her immune system and mental health.

I am not saying I am for or against occasional capture and release, I am merely stating facts and offering some speculation and counterpoints to what you have brought up. Whereas Stefan probably meant everything Ihad said, he usually does not go into detail :)



I believe if it is a morph i.e. albino, then it would not last in the wild.

This is true in many cases but certainly not all. Every color morph animal you see, originated from an animal that 99% of the time, was collected from the wild and was actually showing that trait and not just carrying it. Some color morphs, such as anery, melanistic, hypomelanistic, and even occasionally erythristic are actually beneficial at times and you can even find established populations of these individuals. I personally own an albino animal that was collected in the wild, the albino dekay's of course, and while that was a baby my other two wild caught morph animals were not. Scott felzer owns a BUNCH of astounding morph animals from the wild, many of which were adults at the time found. My hypo eastern, which is close in coloring to a t positive albino, was already an adult and gravid when I caught her. She stuck out SO bad in the grass and yet, she made it. I saw her from almost 40 feet away crawling through tall grass. My wild caught flame has a fluorescent red stripe that is about as inconspicuous as a traffic cone... she was a juvenile and she made it as well. Morphs do make it in the wild, not always, but if they didn't, we would never see them in the hobby!

[brain]

I can kind of see your point... but... do you keep other snakes?
Yes, and most have been in separate habitats for over four years. This will be the first, for me, were I would have a community tank of 1.0 or 0.1’s. They are very rarelyhandled so I believe they don’t get stressed.
If so, you automatically risk spreading anything your current snakes may be carrying and not showing to her just by contacting them, and then her or vice versa.
As would any other hobbyist who collects wild snakes. I will ask … do you know of any concrete evident as to the demise or health issues of WC or the hobbyist’s collection of snakes by these “unknown pathogens”?
So saying that you are never exposing her to anything bad (which I never did say, I believe) would be impossible since you would need a 100% sterile environment where you never ever contact her personally to be successful in zero exposure. Bacteria, viruses, fungi, and parasite eggs are all invisible to the naked eye, it's as simple as you mess around with another animal in your house (or out of it, for that matter) that happens to be carrying something and you automatically risk possibly, passing. Whether she would actually catch it, whether she fights it off, whether she carries it without showing it and then when she is released it wipes out a small population, that is all left to chance and unseen circumstances. To wonder about what real harm you are doing is perfectly okay, but to deny that there is a *posibility* of you causing it would be rather silly. Never say never!
Yes I do agree the *possibility* does exist but I never stated that. I am only asking “is there concrete evidentance to the connection where by I would be introducing an “unknown pathogens” into the snake or area.
The other major point of capturing, keeping, and then releasing a snake that people often miss is the amount of stress and confusion it puts the snak through. Stress lowers her immune system, causing her to be more susceptible to picking up things that she might normall fight off. When you set her free, she is obviously confused and even if you release her exactly where you found her, she is going to spend a good bit of time crawling around aimlessly trying to figure out what the heck is going on and that is the time where she is very likely to be eaten and thus you are in fact, reducing her chance to survive by a great deal by degradation of her immune system and mental health.
This is a well noted point, I do agree the stress level is up in the critter as they see anything above their size as a predator thus the flight or fight instinct comes in.

I am not saying I am for or against occasional capture and release; I am merely stating facts and offering some speculation and counterpoints to what you have brought up.
Ty and I agree. It’s my contingency that these critters just did not just appear in our home habitats; they had to be collected from the wild, that being said this did not just happen yesterday either. So, I have not heard of a species being decimated by the “collection” of/or “health problems from unknown pathogens”. If this was the case I would surely be against the collection. What I am most concerned about the loss of natural habitat from man.

This is true in many cases but certainly not all. Every color morph animal you see, originated from an animal that 99% of the time, was collected from the wild and was actually showing that trait and not just carrying it. Some color morphs, such as anery, melanistic, hypomelanistic, and even occasionally erythristic are actually beneficial at times and you can even find established populations of these individuals. I personally own an albino animal that was collected in the wild, the albino dekay's of course, and while that was a baby my other two wild caught morph animals were not. Scott felzer owns a BUNCH of astounding morph animals from the wild, many of which were adults at the time found. My hypo eastern, which is close in coloring to a t positive albino, was already an adult and gravid when I caught her. She stuck out SO bad in the grass and yet, she made it. I saw her from almost 40 feet away crawling through tall grass. My wild caught flame has a fluorescent red stripe that is about as inconspicuous as a traffic cone... she was a juvenile and she made it as well. Morphs do make it in the wild, not always, but if they didn't, we would never see them in the hobby!
Those wild morphs have little chance hear in the NW as we have many raptors, Eagles, and the numerous hawks. Why even rats and my cats that their fair shares.
Yes and I agree Mother Nature is constantly evolving (other wise we wouldn’t be here, sorry off subject). Those of the morph are adapting to their environment and we collect them as “pretties”. I commend those dedicated hobbyist like yourself and Scott who try to provide an alternative to our whims. The problem I see there is, “in every clutch/litter maybe one will be appealing, what happens to the other say 9 which are not”?

[brain]

I’m not trying to start a range war here :o I just was wondering “if” anyone can provide concrete evidences one way or another. After that it will be my own decision and live with my conscience.

This is what drives my actions. To collect or not to collect?:(

[Stefan-A]

What exactly are you asking for? A list of cases where released or escaped animals have introduced diseases into the environment? When it comes to diseases that affect amphibians, Chytridiomycosis would be one such case and it's one with global consequences. It's just an example of such a case and like I said, there's no way for any of us to know what you could unwittingly spread to the wild population, or bring into the captive one. We're not clairvoyant. Unknown pathogen also refers to the fact that one doesn't necessarily know of its presence in the animal that's released. It could be a virus, a bacteria, a fungus, a prion disease, a protozoa, a parasite etc. How big the risk is may vary, but it doesn't ever go away and there are countless strands and even strands of normally harmless bacteria that may be deadly to other individuals of the same species or other species. One problem is that it's usually identified only after it's spread into a population where there's no resistance to it and when it is already wreaking havoc. So what are the consequences of not taking the risk?

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

What exactly are you asking for? A list of cases where released or escaped animals have introduced diseases into the environment? When it comes to diseases that affect amphibians, Chytridiomycosis would be one such case and it's one with global consequences. It's just an example of such a case and like I said, there's no way for any of us to know what you could unwittingly spread to the wild population, or bring into the captive one. We're not clairvoyant. Unknown pathogen also refers to the fact that one doesn't necessarily know of its presence in the animal that's released. It could be a virus, a bacteria, a fungus, a prion disease, a protozoa, a parasite etc. How big the risk is may vary, but it doesn't ever go away and there are countless strands and even strands of normally harmless bacteria that may be deadly to other individuals of the same species or other species. One problem is that it's usually identified only after it's spread into a population where there's no resistance to it and when it is already wreaking havoc. So what are the consequences of not taking the risk?

Thank you, Stefan.

[snakeman]

I know somebody who caught and release spotted turtles a little ways from my house.He wound up wiping out about 75% of all the turtle there.The next year we were finding dead spotteds all over the place.They are making a comeback now,But nowhere's near the numbers they had before.

[infernalis]

I must admit that many of my views have "evolved" and changed since joining this forum, The collective reasoning of our members is responsible for that:D

Firstly ANY animal that I pick up and bring into the house begins a LIFELONG commitment, in other words, I am not willing to put the awesome population that surrounds me at risk by acting on a spur of the moment whim. No different than purchasing a reptile, once it enters the home, releasing is NOT an option EVER.


“in every clutch/litter maybe one will be appealing, what happens to the other say 9 which are not”?

In response to that question, there are two answers, one is "nice" the other is not, but a reality nonetheless.

#1. Cull (put down, feed them to another rep or just euthanize them) this is performed on a regular basis by many breeders even if they will not openly admit it, These "breeders" are obviously in it for the money only, yet still have enough common sense to not release them into the wild.

#2. My personal favorite, and my choice;) , find suitable caring homes for all of them, or assume full responsibility for ones actions and keep them.

These have not always been my views, but as I stated at the onset of this post, the collective intelligence of this group has shaped me into a "better man" when it comes to my snake collection.

A certain member of this very group had an accidental hybrid breeding occur, producing a healthy litter of "mutts", I along with several others volunteered to care for these snakes until they pass on from old age.

I enjoy my "mutt" and find him attractive, amusing and actually rather robust. His name is Muttley, and he will be a pet until his last days sucking down oxygen.

I am also not ashamed to admit, I have fed more than one snake to our Savannah monitor, It is a natural process, and I felt better inside than just killing the animal for nothing, However they were genetically defective, or the still born from litters. I have yet to just toss a healthy snake to Chomper.

However, should I find myself overwhelmed with unwanted baby snakes, Its nice to have that option rather than see the whole collection suffer due to my overwhelmed state.

Just my thoughts...

Thank you Stefan and Thank you Tom for the posts you made, both add a sound validity to the issue at hand. And thanks to James for starting this thread in the first place.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Wayne, I use stillborn snakes as feeders for my tiger salamander and legless lizard. I do the same with babies that I know are not going to make it. But I decapitate them first with a razor. I feel better knowing that the snake's last moments, he had no idea he was going to die. When you feed them live to a predator, their last few seconds are spent being chewed up and swallowed, and possibly they are even still a bit alive by the time they reach the stomach...and well, I am sure they feel that so I choose to end it quickly and painlessly for them.

[infernalis]

Shannon let's not lose sight of the point, some breeders have been known to flush unwanted babies down the toilet, just like some people do with unwanted goldfish.

Besides that, it has been established that decapitation leaves a living brain due to super low oxygen requirements.

It has even been documented that human heads have been observed rolling eyes, and mouths reciting prayers while the head was in the basket at the guillotine.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Shannon let's not lose sight of the point, some breeders have been known to flush unwanted babies down the toilet, just like some people do with unwanted goldfish.

Besides that, it has been established that decapitation leaves a living brain due to super low oxygen requirements.

It has even been documented that human heads have been observed rolling eyes, and mouths reciting prayers while the head was in the basket at the guillotine.

Well, I was not going to mention it before as it's kind of gruesome, but that is PRECISELY the reason that immediately following decapitation I completely crush the head with a blunt object. Otherwise, the head lives on for many minutes.

[brain]

Well, I was not going to mention it before as it's kind of gruesome, but that is PRECISELY the reason that immediately following decapitation I completely crush the head with a blunt object. Otherwise, the head lives on for many minutes.

I use dry ice to put down mice and rats; it displaces the oxygen thus a quite sleepy death. Less traumatic.

[infernalis]

We all have different methods I guess.