New born rattlers

[Bay_area]

One of my C. organus (Northern Pacific Rattlesnakes) gave birth the other day! So adarable I just wanted to hug them...LOL!

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//614/medium/DSC_0008_3_.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//614/medium/DSC_0044_3_.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//614/medium/DSC_0050_2_.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//614/medium/DSC_0032_3_.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//614/medium/DSC_0039_3_.jpg

Last one born...I love this pic!
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//614/medium/DSC_0060_2_.jpg

[Snake lover 3-25]

awwww wow are they fat or what!!!!!!!:D:D:p:p

[drache]

they are really cute
their patterns look so much like my hognose's

[EdgyExoticReptiles]

those are so cute, i like the black one, how old do you have to be to get one :D

[Zephyr]

AWW!!
They're adorable! So pudgy! :P
But it's all cute pudge. XD

[enigma200316]

awsome, and ready to kill you already....lol:D

[Lori P]

Ooooh, they are waaay too cute!!! Look at those little innocent faces... I love the mouth shot! No hugs tho Jerry!!

[anji1971]

Awwwww, even dangerous babies are still SO cute. I can see why you'd be tempted to hug...........but I'd not advise it!:D

[stonyloam]

Cute, cute, adorable, awwwww, hug....... Excuse me are you all nuts?:confused: They are very nice looking little snakes but CUTE???? Well.... maybe that one little button, but not the other end.:p

[infernalis]

Excuse me are you all nuts?:confused:

My neighbors ask that all the time:D

[Loren]

I think they are cute. Very cute.
:)

[jeanette]

they are really fantastic, i did think about getting a DWA licence so we could keep hots. but in the end we decided it wasnt practical with us still having young kids. did you see the birth? that last litte one is really adorable. :) :) :)

[big J]

awesome babies i would so like to keep one but the local laws where i live prevent such a thing booooooooo

[GartersRock]

Yeah... I think we are all nuts. lol!
CUTE!!!!! Esp the yawning one!!! =)
Have fun with them!

[Bay_area]

Excuse me are you all nuts?:confused:
You have been talking to my wife! LOL!

Just a little nuts...Ask Loren, he will tell ya...LOL! "Come on, Just do it, Loren"...ROTFL!!!

[lestat]

Yes very nice snakes. I didnt know Rattlers were live bearers like Garters.
You learn something new evey day.

[GartersRock]

I believe all viper type snakes are live bearing. Correct me if I am wrong.

[Jenlang_79]

Who says snakes arn't cute....they are adorable!!!:D:D

[el lobo]

Those babies are awesome! I dig!

[jeanette]

I believe all viper type snakes are live bearing. Correct me if I am wrong.
not sure on that one i think Mambas are egg layers so that would break the rules, be worth finding that out.

[adamanteus]

Mambas are Elapids (like Cobras) not vipers, and yes, they do lay eggs, but don't break any 'rules'..
Most, but not all vipers are live bearing.. for example Calloselasma rhodastoma is a Crotalid linked closely to the North American Agkistrodon group, but it is an egg layer.... I know this, because I've bred them.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

For anyone interested in what a Northern Pacific Rattlesnake bite can do to you, please go to Crotalus (http://www.humboldtherps.com/crotalus.html) for some basic information... Halfway down the page is a link to Justin's Rattlesnake Bite (http://www.rattlesnakebite.org/) (go there directly if you wish). Be forewarned; it is not for the faint-hearted. After viewing the pictures I was nauseous.

http://www.humboldtherps.com/images/HCHSimage-No2._Pacific_Rattlesnake-Matthews_Creek-So._Fk._Salmon_River_07-20-2007.JPG

juvenile Northern Pacific Rattlesnake (Crotalus oreganus oreganus). We sat right next to this youngster without knowing it (at least for a while).

Please don't get bitten. Be safe!

Steven

[dashnu]

Wow! That looks pretty nasty! I saw a show on Animal Planet the other night were a guy got his stomach bit by a Cobra I think. Wasn't nearly as gross as those pics put it did put a 6 inch hole in his stomach.. Was pretty crazy.. Those little buggers are full of venom directly after birth correct?

Anywas nice pics, I still think the little guys are cute :)

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

The "baby rattlesnakes are more dangerous then the adults" myth often permeates through the realm of snakebite stories, however is somewhat of a fallacy. The only truth to it is that in many cases the babies do not know when to withhold venom in a defensive bite. Adult rattlers often often inflict dry bites, not because their venom sacs are necessarily empty, but because a defensive bite isn't really supposed to "digest" a potential enemy! Adults, it appears, can control it. Why waste your predigestive saliva!? (please note that recharging venom banks does not take that long however!) Adults also have the capability of injecting larger amounts of venom (bigger venom sacs!).

[ssssnakeluvr]

cool photos!!!!! wish I could have venomous again.....would have to move out of Utah!!!! babies venom is as strong as adult, but they can't give as big a dose as adults...they can, on occasion, deliver dry bites....I know this for a fact....I was tagged by a 3 month old eastern massasauga....my fault too. was young and not too swift... I have had a number of gt basin rattlers also.

[anji1971]

Wow, Steven, the pics on that link are something else!!
What a hell of a mess............:eek:

[Stefan-A]

Congratulations on you new babies! :D

[Loren]

You have been talking to my wife! LOL!

Just a little nuts...Ask Loren, he will tell ya...LOL! "Come on, Just do it, Loren"...ROTFL!!!

Yeah, I'll tell you. He encourages me to take risks, to live life on the edge- He talked me into getting a large milk shake instead of a medium, and I ended up with a belly-ache!

:D

And for the record, Jerry and I are nuts. Jerry more so than I. :)

[Loren]

The "baby rattlesnakes are more dangerous then the adults" myth often permeates through the realm of snakebite stories, however is somewhat of a fallacy. The only truth to it is that in many cases the babies do not know when to withhold venom in a defensive bite. Adult rattlers often often inflict dry bites, not because their venom sacs are necessarily empty, but because a defensive bite isn't really supposed to "digest" a potential enemy! Adults, it appears, can control it. Why waste your predigestive saliva!? (please note that recharging venom banks does not take that long however!) Adults also have the capability of injecting larger amounts of venom (bigger venom sacs!).

There are many different factors that affect the seriousness of a bite, to the point that a "less dangerous" snake could result in a far worse effect than a "very dangerous snake"... or the other way around.

The best quote I ever heard on tv sums it all up. "The most dangerous venomous snake is the one that bites you!"

[Stefan-A]

The "baby rattlesnakes are more dangerous then the adults" myth often permeates through the realm of snakebite stories, however is somewhat of a fallacy. The only truth to it is that in many cases the babies do not know when to withhold venom in a defensive bite.
I learned pretty recently, that that's also a fallacy. :) Apparently the babies know very well how to withhold venom (whether or not they do, is a different story) and the myth that the babies would be more dangerous, turns out to be true in some instances. Babies of at least some species of venomous snake can in fact have a more potent venom than the adults. What I knew from before, was that the venoms change in composition as the snake grows, but I didn't think that this myth, which had already been debunked once, would turn out to be true. But I don't know if it's true for rattlers.

James is going to declare this nonsense for sure. :D

[adamanteus]

James is going to declare this nonsense for sure. :D

No he isn't. The venom changes in certain snakes as they grow and their diet changes.
I believe the ability to instinctively choose between delivering a 'dry' bite or an envenomated bite is there from birth.
Even with these changes in mind, we have to remember that dead is dead.... The ones with the more potent venom don't kill you more dead than the others!:D

[Stefan-A]

Even with these changes in mind, we have to remember that dead is dead.... The ones with the more potent venom don't kill you more dead than the others!:D
And that's why I think "deadliest" is one of the funnier words. Like "bestest".

[beaniesmommy]

Oh hell no! That is all I can say after seeing those pictures. :eek:

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Thank you for the update. I wish open-mindedness were more prevalent on this forum sometimes. Stefan and James, I am always impressed by your responses.

I guess it really would depend on the species. I can see how venom would change (especially temporally b/n neonate & adult stages). A change in diet would alter it ontogenetically (You are what you eat!).

Bestestest advice: Don't get bitten by a venomous snake, no matter what its age!

Steve

[dashnu]

Interesting read guys. Good info. In my case I never need to worry about an arm as raw as the one in those photos. No venomous snakes in Maine.

[Bay_area]

The bite from an adult C. organus could kill you! I was just with some people last Sunday that are involved in the studies of the Northern Pacific Rattlesnakes & what they were saying should be coming out soon. Whether the venom components change or not as a rattlesnake grows does not make a difference if an adult bites you, their venom sacks are alot bigger than a baby rattlesnakes. Therefore if an adult bites you, there will be damage or death to the person being bitten. The only deaths from a C. organus in recent years have been from an adult rattlesnake. What happens to a person that is bitten has alot to do with what part of the body that gets bitten & post bite treatment. Bob Norris, who is the upmost authority on the venom of C. organus bites, has told me several times that the bite from one is under rated. Mainly because of the fact that bites are rare compared to C. atrox (Western Diamondback). The C. organus is not as aggressive as other snakes & most bites occure from people trying to handle them, alcohol is ussually involved(by the person, not the snake)

here is a link to an article by Sean Bush on Southern Pacific Bites eMedicine - Snake Envenomation, Rattle : Article by Sean P Bush (http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic540.htm) The Northern Pacific very close relative.

I have personally watched mice get tagged by Northern Pacific Rattlesnakes & are dead in mere seconds. Both adult & juveniles snakes. I have also seen on several occasions where the snake bites & does not release the mouse til it is dead, pumping venom into the mouse the whole time (ussually when more than one snake is in the enclosure).
On a final note... Venomous are not for the average snake keeper, I do want to stress that. Experience with nonvenomous snakes, no matter how long does not justify that getting into "hots"!!! If someone has the desire to keep "hots", I suggest helping someone that already keeps them in a responsible way. Experience goes along way.
Thank you everyone,
Jerry

[adamanteus]

... Venomous are not for the average snake keeper, I do want to stress that. Experience with nonvenomous snakes, no matter how long does not justify that getting into "hots"!!! If someone has the desire to keep "hots", I suggest helping someone that already keeps them in a responsible way. Experience goes along way.
Thank you everyone,
Jerry

Very wise words from Jerry there. Unless you have a particular interest or special reason to keep venomous snakes, they're best left alone. You only get one mistake!

[Lumpy]

Just looking at those photos reinforces my desire to never get near rattlers. Pretty, yes...pretty dangerous too! I repespect those who own and handle them, but.....no thanks.

We have Mississauga rattlers in these parts. But they are very shy and I only know of one person ever coming across one. It was sitting in her driveway. She gave it a lot of room!

I'll stick to the harmless variety.

Lump

[Stefan-A]

On a final note... Venomous are not for the average snake keeper, I do want to stress that. Experience with nonvenomous snakes, no matter how long does not justify that getting into "hots"!!! If someone has the desire to keep "hots", I suggest helping someone that already keeps them in a responsible way. Experience goes along way.
Thank you everyone,
Jerry
Wise words indeed. What's your suggestion to those of us, who simply don't know anybody who keeps them? Well, at least not anybody who could show you how to do things correctly.

[jeanette]

i dont think that the strength of venom in the bite of an adult or the bite of a young snake matters, at the end of it all the most dangerous bite is the one that got you. Just a thought there :p

[jeanette]

Wise words indeed. What's your suggestion to those of us, who simply don't know anybody who keeps them? Well, at least not anybody who could show you how to do things correctly.
its hard to find a mentor in the keeping of venomous snakes. most hots keepers are a close mouthed group, this isnt due to ignorence, but like all sane people out there (and i think most people on here would agree) they dont want all those thrill seekers deciding handling a venomous snake for kicks would be the latest thing.
if you want to handle venomous snakes then some shops that have venomous will know quite a few keepers, this would be the best way to go. ive had offers to go and observe and then work up to handling but either im too chicken at present or im more into self preservation lol.
handling hots is always dangerous even when you are experienced all venomous keepers will tell you this. maybe one day i will take the plunge, im not ready for that step yet.

[adamanteus]

Very wise, Jeanette. I have some experience with venomous snakes, and I can honestly say the single biggest danger is complacency. Too easy to get 'cocky'.

[Garter_Gertie]

There is no way I'd ever hand a vemenous - can't even pronounce the word - snake. Those of you that do, fine. But not me. I can take non-vemenous now w/o batting an eye. But there is no way I will ever deal with a vemenous snake. And I don't think they're pretty - I am not fond of things [like those kind'a snakes] that have the propensity to kill me. More power to you guys that have and do mess with them. Have at'er.

[Loren]

Just want to point out that "handling" venomous does not nesesarilly mean touching the animal with hands, but rather working with them with the proper tools, and only as much as required to care for the animal.
There are few reasons to actually touch a venomous snake, and they are rare. Otherwise, no part of your body should ever be within their possible reach.

[Zephyr]

There is no way I'd ever hand a vemenous - can't even pronounce the word - snake. Those of you that do, fine. But not me. I can take non-vemenous now w/o batting an eye. But there is no way I will ever deal with a vemenous snake. And I don't think they're pretty - I am not fond of things [like those kind'a snakes] that have the propensity to kill me. More power to you guys that have and do mess with them. Have at'er.VENOM-ous? :P

[Garter_Gertie]

VENOM-ous? :P

That's what I said. I can't even pronounce the word. (shudder)

[Stefan-A]

its hard to find a mentor in the keeping of venomous snakes. most hots keepers are a close mouthed group, this isnt due to ignorence, but like all sane people out there (and i think most people on here would agree) they dont want all those thrill seekers deciding handling a venomous snake for kicks would be the latest thing.
if you want to handle venomous snakes then some shops that have venomous will know quite a few keepers, this would be the best way to go. ive had offers to go and observe and then work up to handling but either im too chicken at present or im more into self preservation lol.
handling hots is always dangerous even when you are experienced all venomous keepers will tell you this. maybe one day i will take the plunge, im not ready for that step yet.
No shops here have venomous snakes. Nothing more venomous than garters, anyway. The problem isn't that I wouldn't know how to contact someone with venomous snakes, they're not that hard to find. I just don't know anybody who would be interested in teaching a noob.

[Bay_area]

No shops here have venomous snakes. Nothing more venomous than garters, anyway. The problem isn't that I wouldn't know how to contact someone with venomous snakes, they're not that hard to find. I just don't know anybody who would be interested in teaching a noob.


Then you are not in the right circles right now. Therefore, it is not meant to be. Experience goes along way. It is like someone that reads all the books on how to swing a baseball bat. Until he gets out there & does it & is coached by someone with experience, he will not master the art of swinging the bat. With venomous snakes, there is no room for mistakes.

The best book for those that want to keep Venomous snakes is; Venomous Snakes in Captivity: Safety and Husbandry, available here;
Venomous Snakes in Captivity: Safety and Husbandry by B. W. Smith (Book) in Pets (http://www.lulu.com/content/120635) Read it before you get any venomous snakes
Thanks, Jerry

[Stefan-A]

Then you are not in the right circles right now. Therefore, it is not meant to be.
I've never subscribed to that theory.

[adamanteus]

I've never subscribed to that theory.

Me neither. I think some people have the right attitude and approach.... and some.... don't.
Personal 'hands-on' (not literally) experience can't be taught, or bought. There's only one way to get experience.....
That said, some people should never try, while others should.

[ssssnakeluvr]

thats how I got most of my experience....hands on!! back when I was a kid, the only people working with snakes were the few that wrote books and Marlin Perkins. My mom teased me for years when I said I wanted to be a herpetologist, and Marlin mentioned he was one.... experience is one of those crazy things...you can't get experience cuz no one will give you any because you don't have any....vicious circle! :eek:

[Garter_Gertie]

Marlin Perkins and Wild Kingdom. Haven't thought about him in ages! What a flashback!

[ssssnakeluvr]

used to watch him every sunday!!! watch him sit in the bushes while Jim wrestled the huge anaconda.... :eek:

also shows my old age...:eek:

[Loren]

I think Marty Stoufer was on Wild Kingdom or something similar(maybe Wild America?) on pbs when I was young. Watched it on sunday afternoons.

[Charlet_2007]

i dont know they just have that "I'll mess your day up all to heck" look on them.. :D

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Mutual of Omaha. WOW! That's pre-80's! Scary!

[Garter_Gertie]

Didn't Marty "Stowfer" "Hi, I'm Marty Stowfer." take over for Perkins?

Can't you just hear him saying, "Stow-fer"?

[Loren]

I would sure like to catch a few re-runs of that show. Back when nature shows actually just showed nature and taught about it- no "spooky" voiced narators calling snakes and spiders evil killers, no count downs comparing everything to computor animated humans, no show boating, just a good ol' nature show(if I remember right- I was very young then).

[Bay_area]

I've never subscribed to that theory.

LOL! That is just what I say when I do not get what I want, I guess it is a "in the mind" attitude thing that helps me not get upset when it does not go my way. Sort of like when the snake you want gets away right between your legs:o


"Marlin Perkins and Wild Kingdom." I remember siting down watching that every Sunday before Wonderful World of Disney came on. It was funny how Jim would do all the work & Marlin would tie the episode in with buying insurance from Mutual of Omaha...LOL! He would say things like, "Just as the python wraps Jim, Mutual of Omaha will cover you." LOL!

I also really used to enjoy "Wild, wild world of Animals" narrated by William Conrad. I think those shows molded my thoughts on nature

Thanks, Jerry

[Spiritwolf]

that last pic is adorable, looks like that baby is so tired from being born, he's yawning and ready to go to sleep!

What do you do with babies you produce? I would think that it would be challenging to sell venomous snakes to people who are knowledgeable enough and responsible enough to safely keep them. I could see problems with people wanting a venomous snake for the same reason people sometimes want aggressive dogs, ego, macho, intimidation, boasting, etc wrong reasons.

[adamanteus]

I could see problems with people wanting a venomous snake for the same reason people sometimes want aggressive dogs, ego, macho, intimidation, boasting, etc wrong reasons.

Yes, I agree. There is a 'hard-core' group of responsible keepers specializing in venomous snakes, but they are few and far between.

[Stefan-A]

I could see problems with people wanting a venomous snake for the same reason people sometimes want aggressive dogs, ego, macho, intimidation, boasting, etc wrong reasons.
A lot of people seem to get large species for the same reason. It's like glueing colourful feathers to your arse, climbing up on a dungheap and yelling "I'm the king of the world!" to passers-by.

[Loren]

Now thats funny Stefan- and probably accurate for some people.
Like James said, there are responsible, qualified people out there, that keep them for more valid reasons, but there just arent very many.
Just have to watch out for the ones that just want a venomous or large snake for no other reason than that they can call all their buddies over to watch it kill things for fun.
I think its usually fairly easy to decide if someone seems to have a legitimate interest and knowledge in them just by talking to them a bit.

[Stefan-A]

Now thats funny Stefan- and probably accurate for some people.
Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that it would be true for every person (or even most of them) who keeps large snakes.

[Loren]

I didnt take that way, either. :)

I always hate to see people lose the right to keep large snakes, but truthfully, only a small percentage of those that aquire them are qualified to keep them as adults.

[Lori P]

A lot of people seem to get large species for the same reason. It's like glueing colourful feathers to your arse, climbing up on a dungheap and yelling "I'm the king of the world!" to passers-by.

ROFLMArseO!!!!! OMG, Stefan, you are a hoot!!!

[Spiritwolf]

True too about a lot of people who want a big constrictor for the wrong purposes, and don't consider whether they can provide the housing needs, etc, for keeping an adult large snake.

Everytime I see baby anacondas advertised for sale, I wonder how many people who think it would be cool to have an anaconda, would be able to provide a proper home for an adult anaconda. Seems to me that it would be very difficult for any private individual who didn't have plenty of space, money, and access to knowledge in creating sufficiently correct habitats, would have an extremely difficult time in coming up with adequate housing and habitat for an adult anaconda.

People acquire giant snakes, alligators, & other such creatures that have "showing off macho" allure and then when that animal's needs grow with it, too often the animal is thrown out with the thinking "it will be able to survive ok in the wild," or "someone will find him and give him a home."
Then when such an animal who has lost its natural wariness of humans, happens to invade a home or injure someone, the animal gets all the blame and often ends up being euthanized for the thoughtlessness of its former owner!

When I bred German Shepherd Dogs, I also saw many people who just wanted a "good guard dog" that would "bite anybody who comes in my yard or messes with my stuff", and I would try to explain the folly of that kind of thinking.
When I visited friends in Chicago, I would see people being pulled down the street by their pitbulls and I would ask, "Why don't you teach that dog not to pull you like that," and offer to show them how to teach a dog to heel properly and watch the handler. The owners replied that they were scared to try to make the dog do anything because it was a pitbull. I would ask them why they had the dogs if they were scared to train and work with their own dog and show the dog the rules they wanted the dog to learn to obey, and they consistently replied that they had the dogs to scare the neighbors, or had the dog to keep people scared to try to come into their house, etc.

The type of person who wants animals with such "attention getting" stereotypes sometimes will turn into a wiser, serious enthusiast but more often, gets the animal, uses it to get the attention he/she wants, and then the novelty wears off, the animal's needs require more than the owner wants to give, or the inconvenience, work, and expense of keeping the animal becomes greater than the animal's novelty and ability to get attention, and the animal ends up paying the price.

[GartersRock]

Very well said Spiritwolf!! =D

[ssssnakeluvr]

The type of person who wants animals with such "attention getting" stereotypes sometimes will turn into a wiser, serious enthusiast but more often, gets the animal, uses it to get the attention he/she wants, and then the novelty wears off, the animal's needs require more than the owner wants to give, or the inconvenience, work, and expense of keeping the animal becomes greater than the animal's novelty and ability to get attention, and the animal ends up paying the price.
well put!!!!! I deal with the end result of that all the time with my job!!!!

[Bay_area]

I keep a retic & the rattlers because I enjoy them, not for attention! As a matter of fact, besides here on the forums, I do not show my animals to very many people except in an educational format. Several people I associate with do not want anyone to know they have snakes. So, I do not think the group I hang out with are in it for attention. Loren knows some of them & he could contest to that. As a matter of fact. The guy I go hiking with weekly is part of a group that is known only by "The Secret Seven". They have some of the nicest venomous snakes that are locatity specific & alot of people know of them, but not their names. I do not hide the fact that I keep rattlesnakes or my Retic, but I do not advertise it either. The neighbors have watched my retic grow up to the size it is. However, I do not take out around town. Many people have a genuine fear of snakes & I would not want to cause anyone to "freak out".

[ssssnakeluvr]

I would love to have a few different types of rattlers....love the patterns and colors. but Utah is too picky... I used to have a newborn eastern massasauga years ago when I was in the army in Michigan...prettiest blue and black snake you ever seen!!! the vet from the air force base near by gave him to me. it was found on base and they couldn't get it to eat. I took it back to my clinic and it started eating right away!!!!! I had him for about 2 months until I got bit, my fault, I was young and dumb...shouldn't have been handling him the way I was. dry bite, no problem, doctors gave me antibiotics cuz I was bitten by a wild animal...that was it...oh, and the nickname "snake charmer" (I made 4 trips to the ER that year, tehy new me well!!!) teh vet made me get rid of him. she didn't like me anyway so it was something else to ride me about. the snake was donated to the Detroit Zoo and lived a long healthy life there.