here's the thing

[garterchick]

this is a email thread i had with scott felzer yesterday:

.ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P{padding:0px;}.ExternalClass body.EC_hmmessage{font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;}hi scott,

i'm hoping you can help me figure something out. i own an adult female flame garter snake and a young adult male red-sided garter.
i lost the male flame during brumation and the female red-sided shortly after, so in my infinite wisdom i decided to house the two surviving snakes together. i did this in the middle of april and unexpected breeding took place immediately. two weeks ago, about 45 days after the union, i was blessed with 16 offspring, 2 of which died so far. at first i made the assumption that the little red-sided boy is the daddy, but the more i think about it the less sure i am. is it even possible that the red-sided fathered the brood given the time line or did this pregnancy result from retained sperm from the male flame (breeding did take place in the fall)? either way, the young'ns are stunning, many of them high red, and are sure to bring me much joy.
i'm posing the question to you because you're without a doubt the authority on everything concerning the breeding of garters and i hope you can shed some light on the issue.
thank you for your time

tina sackett



he replied:


.ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P{padding-right:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-top:0px;}.ExternalClass BODY.EC_hmmessage{font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;}
Tina,

Can you send me pics of the parents and babies? I can try and help you pinpoint which fathered the brood (hopefully).

Scott


to which i said:

i'll try to get some decent pictures tonight of mama and the red-sided boy, and maybe of some of the babies. unfortunately i have none of the male flame, at least not any good ones. thanks for your help

tina

so i sent him these pictures:

IMG_0001.JPG (115.1 KB) (http://by131w.bay131.mail.live.com/mail/ReadMessageLight.aspx?Action=ScanAttachment&AllowUnsafeContentOverride=False&AttachmentIndex=0&AttachmentDepth=0&FolderID=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000003&InboxSortAscending=False&InboxSortBy=Date&IsMessageSafe=True&MessageCodePage=1252&ReadMessageId=2570b70d-fc27-428f-a918-23c41467e71f&n=1431346170), IMG_0002_...JPG (203.4 KB) (http://by131w.bay131.mail.live.com/mail/ReadMessageLight.aspx?Action=ScanAttachment&AllowUnsafeContentOverride=False&AttachmentIndex=1&AttachmentDepth=1&FolderID=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000003&InboxSortAscending=False&InboxSortBy=Date&IsMessageSafe=True&MessageCodePage=1252&ReadMessageId=2570b70d-fc27-428f-a918-23c41467e71f&n=1649699491), IMG_0002_...JPG (155.0 KB) (http://by131w.bay131.mail.live.com/mail/ReadMessageLight.aspx?Action=ScanAttachment&AllowUnsafeContentOverride=False&AttachmentIndex=2&AttachmentDepth=2&FolderID=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000003&InboxSortAscending=False&InboxSortBy=Date&IsMessageSafe=True&MessageCodePage=1252&ReadMessageId=2570b70d-fc27-428f-a918-23c41467e71f&n=325813564), IMG_0006_...JPG (111.1 KB) (http://by131w.bay131.mail.live.com/mail/ReadMessageLight.aspx?Action=ScanAttachment&AllowUnsafeContentOverride=False&AttachmentIndex=3&AttachmentDepth=3&FolderID=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000003&InboxSortAscending=False&InboxSortBy=Date&IsMessageSafe=True&MessageCodePage=1252&ReadMessageId=2570b70d-fc27-428f-a918-23c41467e71f&n=534718543), IMG_0004.JPG (88.9 KB) (http://by131w.bay131.mail.live.com/mail/ReadMessageLight.aspx?Action=ScanAttachment&AllowUnsafeContentOverride=False&AttachmentIndex=4&AttachmentDepth=4&FolderID=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000003&InboxSortAscending=False&InboxSortBy=Date&IsMessageSafe=True&MessageCodePage=1252&ReadMessageId=2570b70d-fc27-428f-a918-23c41467e71f&n=324186264)


together with this explanation:

ok, here they are. the red-sided boy is kind of self explanatory as is "big red", the female flame. the male flame, r.i.p., is the one with the white stripe down his back. it's hard to capture the babies up close, i did the best i could.
again, thank you for giving this a try

tina


and this was his immidiate response:

Tina,

The babies are pure flames, there is no red sided influence in them whatsoever. Would you be interested in selling/trading any of the babies? If so, I would be interested in most all, depending on if you are going to keep any for yourself. Let me know and congrats on a nice brood! Where did you get the flames (and red sideds from) if you don't mind me asking?

Scott

so guess what: i'm happy:D!

i know that some of you are going to be sceptical but scott's opinion is good enough for me.

[ssssnakeluvr]

I'm not skeptical...Scott knows what he is talking about. also....45 days is way short for a pregnancy....garter give birth anywhere from 90 to 120 days after breeding.

[Lumpy]

Wow, if he's willing to buy them, I'd say he's confident! I'm sure he knows more than I do, so who am I to argue? Nice!

Lump

[garterchick]

i know, i'm so glad. :)
don, funny you should be the first to respond because i think the male flame that fathered this clutch came origionally from you. i bought the pair from miriam and at some point she told me their origins.

[Snake lover 3-25]

so what do you plan on doing with the babies???? do you have any pics?????

[ssssnakeluvr]

i know, i'm so glad. :)
don, funny you should be the first to respond because i think the male flame that fathered this clutch came origionally from you. i bought the pair from miriam and at some point she told me their origins.
really?? I haven't had any flames......

[garterchick]

i haven't really decided yet. i think the original plan stays in place, make sure they're eating and get them sexed, then i'll pick what i want to keep for my collection. i thought i offer the members who were going to take them in when we thought we're dealing with hybrids to buy at a reduced price, kind of a "you were there for me when i needed you, thank you" rate. the rest of them will either be sold regularly or go to scott.

[adamanteus]

That's great news Tina. I'm really pleased for you.:)

[infernalis]

Tina - Congrats:D

Since Flames are an addiction of mine, and I have a WC male I found, and a HR CB male from Scott, A completely unrelated female would be of great interest to me.

Just thought I would throw that out there:D


Regards,
Wayne snakes (http://www.reformedsniper.net/snakes.html)

[garterchick]

don, are you sure? just kidding! i obviously misunderstood or i remember wrong (the later is most likely, my memory is pretty much going down the drain). i hope i at least remembered the sellers name correctly since she is also a member here:o

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

This is indeed good news for you Tina. Am I correct in believing this is the same supposed crossing that caused so much controversy recently ("shoot!")?
Looks like (based on a longer pregnancy) that it was a complete flame project (planned or not)!

I still liked the controversy. It was one of those real nitty gritty polarized topics!

Good for you and the little ones!

Steven

[drache]

Tina - many congrats
they're all legit now
they must be so relieved - and you too

[ssssnakeluvr]

yea...I had a male flame/erythristic cross eastern, but he passed away....I DO want to get some flames!!!!! some day.....:rolleyes:

[Stefan-A]

That is indeed great news, Tina. :)

[GartersRock]

Wow! What great news!! :)

[beaniesmommy]

I am so happy to hear that! I'm sure it has to be a HUGE relief to not have to stress about this any longer. :)

[anji1971]

So glad it worked out this way. The babies are beautiful regardless, but at least there is no stress on you now, Tina. :)

[Zephyr]

So, wait... Both of the parents were actually eastern flames?
**Edit- Nevermind. XD

[Sid]

Great news, Tina. I really happy all turned out well for you.:D

[Tori]

If you have any male babies left over after everyone gets their's please keep me in mind. I am very interested. Thanks.

[snakeman]

The female you have was produced by me. she is from a male flame/erythristic bred to a normal female.She was produced in 2003.

[garterchick]

i'm so glad you reminded me! i also figured out that the person i bought them from isn't miriam but marion. i swear, at the rate i'm going i'll be in a nursing home by the time i'm 50 just because i'll have forgotten where i live.:p

[jeanette]

Im really pleased that all worked out in the end and the babies are now completely safe ..congrats :):)

[GartersRock]

I know this is an old thread... But does Snakemans's post mean that these babies carry the erythristic gene as well????

[snakeman]

It depends if her adult female is showing the erythristic trait.The sister to that snake felzer is trying to sell right now.She is showing the trait.One of the flame het albinos from that girl is showing the erythristic trait.Unless her female is showing the trait I doubt if it will show up in her babies.You never know though.

[GartersRock]

I see. ;)
I REALLY want that female Scott is selling... Incredible...