is Raising feeder mice for you?

[infernalis]

After seeing some discussion of folks wanting to breed feeder mice, I thought I should share my experience, it affects the whole family.

This forum has a lot of people with really big hearts, thats very good, unless your raising feeder mice. Compassion and love will work against you.

The first litter of pinks, oh so adorable not like those frozen ones, these move, they make squeaky noises. Oh look at that Mom is protecting her babies. The hoppers are helping out, mom can I keep the brown one??

After a while, the habbitrail tunnels wind up in the cages, your "cheap" feed is eating pop tarts, Ritz crackers and the kids yogurt bites.

Then one day one of your "top moms" will suddenly decide to murder and eat her own babies, will she kill again? should I execute her now?? The answer is yes, once they start eating babies, feed them off then and there. Can you bring yourself to do that?

The costs of substrate for the mice, caging, feed, exercise wheels, etc.. adds up quickly.

Buying some frozen mice seems really attractive, unless your needs warrant raising mice, it will eventually make you wonder why you did it.

My son even painted all the mice's toenails with fingernail polish, so daddy could not let those mean snakes eat them.

So weigh out all the angles before diving in. the six bucks up front for your harem is only the beginning.

Wayne

[Stefan-A]

I agree, the initial cost is nothing. It's the same as with snakes.

You search forever for mice, because you don't know any breeders in your area and the pet store doesn't sell them. You end up driving 100km altogether to get those mice.

Add 12€ each for 3 "pet quality" mice
Add the fuel costs (you should actually add the loss of value, wear and tear and insurance costs).
Add 3€ for a food bowl and 3€ for a water bottle.
Add 1€ for a bag of substrate once a week.
Add 2€ for a bag of food every two weeks.
Add 40€ for the CO2 and the death chamber.

Add smell.

Two litters come three weeks later. Your only male gets a respiratory infection and you isolate him from the others. Being a good pet owner, you get him to the vet, because you think that it's cheaper and easier than driving another 100km to get a new male. Besides, there's always a slim chance that it's nothing serious. Add 30€ for the vet visit and the antibiotics. The treatment is eventually unsuccessful and you decide to make it a feeder.

Then you move to a drafty student apartment and after a few weeks, some of your mice start getting the same respiratory problem and you finally decide to wrap it up, declaring it an interesting experiment that you might give another shot at some point in the distant future. Provided that mice will then be genetically engineered not to smell.

What would I do differently? I would keep another species of rodent and I would start with more than one group. And I would be quicker to kill off the sick ones. Next time, all I need to get started is the animals, a bag of food and bedding.

Now I've probably edited this 31 times.

[infernalis]

"Now I've probably edited this 31 times."

Your not alone there either:)

I forgot to mention smell, and all the activity at night, AND the little buggers escape as frequently as the snakes do.

Rats are not much more fun either..... Ours had the female reject the males, and the kids already named them, so I have been taking care of rats that will never do anything but cost this household money.

My python would eat those rats just fine, then my kids would hate me forever. Once they have a name they are pets.

Regards,
Wayne

[Stefan-A]

It would have been 32, but I ran out of time. :D You only have half an hour to edit your post.

Natal rats (soft-furred rats/mice) are supposed to be real experts on escaping.

Never had a mouse, snake or anything else escape, either. Oh, except fish (the kind that lays its eggs on leaves hanging above the water). And a fire bellied newt. And one dwarf clawed frog, although that was technically my sister's. ;) All of them escaped in the 80's, so it doesn't count. ;)

[CrazyHedgehog]

Yes we told our son he was just not allowed to name them...now we have too many to name so its ok.
I now sell surplus mice and rats privately to 4 regular people and two pet shops. its not quite self funded but nearly.
The euthanising really upset me at first, but it does get easier, sadly do it without really thinking about it now (oh no):(

We have around 50 snakes at anyone time, 1 pinkie costs around 50p in the shops(thats about 1 dollar for just a pinkie) and the bigger mice and rats are even more , you can imagine how much it was costing me to feed the snakes! Cheaper from the internet, but you have to buy hundreds to make the postage worth while)

It works well for me, we had initial outlay of fitting shed with insulation, but saved money by buying large plastic boxes and using soldering iron to add hundreds of air holes.

Food is bought in bulk from farm stores, and as mentioned we nearly sell enough mice topay for this (not quite there yet) but then all of my snakes are being fed well!!
substrate is bought from the same place in a HUGE bale, loads cheaper... same price to buy ten times as much!! and we use all of our junk mail and bank letters etc shredded as bedding!

have to agree, it has to be in the shed else they smell too much! if you don't needto, don't do it! however, if you haven't got young kids and you need to, I have found it really has saved us thousands of pounds!:D

[CrazyHedgehog]

Our mouse house..
(Rats are on other side, but we will need to expand shed for them eventually.)
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/mousecages.jpg

[infernalis]

We have so many mouths to feed, I could never stop producing my mice.

We keep the breeding farm away from the kids now, it helps.

if the numbers get out of control, we have a Savannah monitor, he's always glad to help out in that department.

Regards,
Wayne

[jitami]

Great topic Wayne. Thanks to all for sharing your first hand experiences!

Having young kids would make it sooooo much harder! Poor Daddy! :( For what it's worth, I'm a preschool teacher, a fairly well educated one at that, and I don't see any long term harm in your kids learning about feeder animals. Think back to when we all lived on farms, slaughtering animals was simply part of life. A somewhat ugly part, but something that all kids had to learn about at some point. I think teaching the kids that even feeder animals need to be raised with respect and compassion, while still having them serve their purpose, is a valuable lesson that really can't be taught any other way. Still feel for you though! :(:)

Stefan, like you, I think it might be an interesting experiment at some point. I was thinking along the lines of pets(mice or rats) that make food for the other pets(snakes). Maybe two groups of 1.2 or 1.3? I've never raised any sort of feeder animal, but I think I could handle it. I have spent quite a bit of time researching, but I have a feeling that it's one of those things where you don't really see the full picture until you're right in the middle of it. The smell is really the only thing that puts me off... and that's for hubby's sake.

Hedgehog, love your set up... love even more that it's out in the shed ;) I think it's pretty cool that it's almost self sufficient. How much time would you say you put into upkeep? Cleaning cages, feeding, euthanizing, etc?

[KITKAT]

In the past, with two children, I found that having all one color was helpful. Now that I am a grandma, and I don't often let the grandkids down in the basement where the mice and the adult snakes are kept, it doesn't matter, and I have all different colors and patterns. Then I am the only one that gets attached to certain ones.:o

[CrazyHedgehog]

Hedgehog, love your set up... love even more that it's out in the shed ;) I think it's pretty cool that it's almost self sufficient. How much time would you say you put into upkeep? Cleaning cages, feeding, euthanizing, etc?

Thanks, we spend about 20 - 30 mins every day spot cleaning and feeding changing water, collecting babies etc. Then a couple of hours at the weekend with a more thorough clean and sort out. we take it in turns so its not so bad.

[jitami]

That's really not too bad, especially for that many mice. Thanks Inge!

[Zephyr]

*Sigh.* It's the same way with roaches, the feeling guilty part when you send them to the slaughter. Only thing is it's about 1/100 the cost overall. :P

[Snake lover 3-25]

what do you feed roaches to????:confused: i thought you kept them as pets!!!!!:eek:

[infernalis]

Thats the thing when we keep carnivores as pets.

Lizards are very fond of roaches and crickets.

[Lori P]

I went thru so much agony about this at the beginning... and now I'm much better at it. The one problem I can see me having is, I will get too attached to the breeder mommas... I can't imagine I'll be able to feed them off once they have done so much for me and the snakes. So I guess I'll have a momma mouse retirement farm. :-)

Speaking of which... at what age should the mommas be retired??

[jitami]

Lori, it's easier(in my head anyway) for me because I don't have anything that could eat a full grown mouse. Do you think you could pass your retired mommas on to someone else? Still to be used as food, but you wouldn't have to "do the dirty work"? Of course, I think I'd be happier knowing that I euthanized it humanely than trusting someone else to do the same. Hmmmm... momma retirement farm, huh ? :rolleyes::):rolleyes:

[infernalis]

We had a young mama "Cinnamon" she was a good mama, suddenly was just dead, for a whole day it bothered me to look in that cage.

I stay "detached" to the point where my best moms will bite me when I reach in. (no human interaction allowed) and since they get no contact from me, they hate me. Its best that way.

Moms will produce really well for about a year, then taper off. I have always felt that they earned a rest after a year.

And every once in a while, a really cool mouse will con you into moving it from the food line to the production line.

If you can view it as a miniature live stock farm, and remember the ending is always the same, breeding mice can also be very rewarding.

[Jenlang_79]

I could never do it but thank god for people like you!!! If all people couldn't raise them to kill well then I wouldn't be able to keep my snakes...so I truly appreciate what you do!!!

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I tried keeping a breeding group of mice once.... never again until we live on our own... and have a shed!

[Snake lover 3-25]

why not????:D

[Charlet_2007]

well i use to raise rats had over 70 of them at one time.. not in to raising them much anymore.. i only have 10 snakes right now and spent 50.00 14 adult mice.. 4 hoppers and a sm rat here yesterday.. maybe i need to look in to rodent pro lol :D

[Lori P]

I was trying to find a mouse related thread to ask this in. :-)

Someone was telling me yesterday that adult rats are more nutritious than adult mice. (She was telling me I should switch my bp's over to rats) I'm just not sure I buy into that. Why would such closely related rodents have such a difference in nutrition?? And since I'm raising my own mice, on healthy diets and in clean, spacious cages... are they not quite nutritious?

Thoughts??

[infernalis]

Lori, Mice and rats have the same kind of nutrition, Our BP eats both.

If I happen onto a rat sale (Sounds funny, but one local pet store has them for a buck when the ladies have too many)

So When I get dollar rats, I give rats to cane, otherwise he is fine on mice, just more frequently, as rats are bigger and more filling.

I tried to breed rats, I'm sure we could have gotten it, but for a buck already raised, I couldn't raise them for that.

If you already have mice, don't worry about rats, your BP will do just fine on the mice.

[drache]

I don't know that there's a nutritional difference, other than that rats have less fur at a larger size
and in my experience rats make the snake's poop smell worse

[Lori P]

Thanks guys. Wayne, my larger girl Fluffy seems quite happy and healthy on 3-4 adult mice a week, while Squiggles usually eats 2-3. I'd truly rather keep them on the mice but wanted to make sure I wasn't off mark. Thank you!

[Garter_Gertie]

I don't know that there's a nutritional difference, other than that rats have less fur at a larger size
and in my experience rats make the snake's poop smell worse

Note to self: No rats. Not now, not ever.

[Garter_Gertie]

Thanks guys. Wayne, my larger girl Fluffy seems quite happy and healthy on 3-4 adult mice a week, while Squiggles usually eats 2-3. I'd truly rather keep them on the mice but wanted to make sure I wasn't off mark. Thank you!


Pppssssttt... (whipsering) Lori, how did a bald-@$$, furless child get the name "Fluffy"??????

[infernalis]

On that note Gertie, I have had a thread idea for some time....:D

[Lori P]

Pppssssttt... (whipsering) Lori, how did a bald-@$$, furless child get the name "Fluffy"??????

I was going for irony.... :D And it makes me giggle.

[crzy_kevo]

well i had to idea of setting up some wild mouse habs and hoping some move in so then i can pop it open whenever needed to grab myself a feeder maybe grab some extra pinkies and toss them in the freezer and it would just have to stay in the woods across the street i dunno sounds like a good idea to me just need the mice to stay there

[thinkmore]

I would never want to own mice, with all the stories of how they smell.

But gerbils... no smell at all :) We like them as pets too. As long as they don't have names it's easy enough to designate them as snake food. I can't see a garter snake ever eating adult rodents anyway. Much too big. When an older gerbil (with a name, of course) dies, we treat it as any other deceased pet.

Even if you didn't like them as pets, would still imagine they'd be a less smelly choice of feeder animal, albeit with smaller litters and bigger cages required.

[crzy_kevo]

i still like my idea keep the habs outside in the woods hoping that mice decide to take refuge and reproduce in them and if u get lucky then ur all set *woot*

[infernalis]

Kevin, wild mice are a far higher risk of worms and parasites.

What if they just ate rat poison next door somewhere??

Not worth the risk.

[crzy_kevo]

hmmmm that is true
secondary poisoning is very bad

[infernalis]

Check out this little Super Mom hard at work.....that's like 4-5 litters she is trying to feed here:D

http://www.danceswithreptiles.com/stuff/sm.jpg

She deserves a merit badge for this kind of effort, the other mom got so wore out, she fell asleep:D

[GartersRock]

Omg!! She deserves something! Thats for sure!! GREAT pic Wayne!!

[Hornets23]

Awww...I thought about trying breed some mice so that my snakes could have the pinkies but....I think I'll feel too bad, and then just end up with a thousand pet mice...as a matter of fact, I chose garters in the first place since there were other food options and I'm glad cause I really love them. We'll see...part of me would still like a python or cornsnake...Pehaps i'll get over it. I keep telling myself its just like farming........and still........

[Aundrea]

OMG Wayne that is such a cute pic!!!! I could never EVER breed mice and rats and then feed the babies and moms and such to snakes. I have too much of a big heart and i would cry and cry and bawl and feel sooo bad feeding them to snakes. Im a wimp. Thats why I have a dekayi snake and soon a garter. Because they dont eat pinkies. Well I know you guys feed pinkies to your garters. I couldnt bring myself to do it LOL. I would have tons of mice and rat pets LOL that would be bad and my bf would KILL ME LOL :D :eek: It would be cool to have a BP but it would have to eat the prekilled mice and rats. I just have too much of a heart LOL. :rolleyes:

[Lexa]

I'd never have the time or the space to raise mice - and after keeping rats as pets, I'm not sure I'd be able to stop myself getting attatched. At the moment I don't feed my boy pinkies anyway, since he was raised on fish and our new flat will have have a freezer the size of a shoebox (literally). My other snake-keeping flatmate and I have been told firmly that the freezer is therefore for human food, so we're sticking to fish for our garters.

I really want a hoggie and/or a ratsnake at some point, though, and I know my snake-keeping flatmate wants another rep...so we may have a war on our hands.

How much do freezers go for these days? Hehe.

[crzy_kevo]

great pic wayne you should give her a big treat

[GartersRock]

Yeah. The freezer was supposed to be for human food only here to. Yeah right!! ;)

[infernalis]

Well we do spoil our little "Top Moms" they are pets, and yes I have a big guilt trip every time I feed the snakes one of those babies.

We had one little mom that would count the babies every time I reached in for anything.

One day she was found dead in the tote, young and healthy, I think she had a broken heart from all her babies being taken away.

Call it "humanizing" if you want, but she had this look on her face every time a pinky disappeared that tore right through me.

She was given a proper burial......

That was the whole reason I started this thread in the first place, folks were talking about raising rodents, and I wanted everyone to know that if you have a heart (most of us do) and love animals (all of us do) breeding mice may not be something that would be as easy as you would like.

Rodent pro sounds better and better all the time.........

[GartersRock]

Awww... How sad... I am still deciding if I should do it.

[Garter_Gertie]

'Rockster, I don't know... I KNOW I'd not NEVER be able to do it. Think long and hard. I don't see you as one that could. You're just too much of a moosh and lover.

[Garter_Gertie]

'Rockster, regarding the fridge and human food: NO joking. I've more snake food in my fridge than I do food for me.

[Snake lover 3-25]

I have a door shelf in my freezer specially designated to my garter food..... and a box of worms always in the fridge..... my uncle pulled the mice out of the freezer once thinking they were shrimp!!!!! boy did he get a surprize when he opened the bag!!!!!! lol

[Aundrea]

LOL I bet he did get a nice little suprise:D Guess he probably will think twice about opening your freezer LOL

I keep the nightcrawlers in the fridge and then I have a shelf in the living room of earth worms, fruit flies, Tortoise pellets and ummm thats it I think. My house being taken over by animals and their food lol

[crzy_kevo]

lol i still remeber the look on my Gf's face the first time she opened up the freezer and there were frozen frogs in a bag just sitting in front of her face

[Snake lover 3-25]

Rofl!!!!!! :d

[Lori P]

Wayne, that's a great pic!! It does amaze me how the mommas all combine their babies!!

I saw a first time momma give birth the other day... she had no idea what to do. She kept running away from the babies, and for a while I was thinking I'd have to try to give them to another mom.... but after a few hours she started going back, looking at them, lol, and then chasing off the other mice. And now she's doing fine. :-)

Yeah, I could never feed off my mommas.... they work so hard for me!!!

[Loren]

I have an extra fridge/freezer just for snake food. It contains mice, rats, frogs, guppies, lizards, and an albino pacific gophersnake that I found in the wild (dead on road). And worms in the fridge.

I have never had a problem putting down a rodent for snake food. But, I also never pet them or name them. I look at them as snake food from the day they are born- although I do make sure they are well taken care of, to a basic level anyways.

[Garter_Gertie]

Loren, I think you'll find - at the risk of offending the FemaNazis that may be here - it's going to be usually women that have the prob of using raised anjumuls for feeders. Personally, I think it's gender related.

I've never had kids, but my nuturing, mothering, loving, etc., comes out with my pets. I won't go into detail and list my whys and wherefores and what I feel and believe because I know it wouldn't be accepted.

So, on the whole, ittiz my belief more women then men would have a hard time keeping mousies for feeders.

Opinion.

[Loren]

That is a definite possiblitly, but I will leave that to each female to decide. :)

I was born and raised on a dairy, so I was brought up "in the food chain". I think that probably afects me too. I do however, feel that even feeder animals should be treated respectfully.
By the way, I am not afraid to claim that my family's dairy probably offers the best living conditoins a farm animal could hope for, living up to the "happy cows come from California" slogan. And yes, our hundreds of cows do get to graze in green pastures.

Not to say I am going to house my rodents each in a huge habitrail full of toys, but that they will have fresh food, water, and bedding, not be kept too crowded, and they have a temperature controlled climate.

[infernalis]

Well, OK my original opener post did mention habbitrail...

The local dollar store had some of the tunnel pieces, so I compulsively spent $5 and hooked the pieces together, they use them.

The mice are in $5 rubbermaid totes, not the clear kind either.

The local pet store sells a basic grain/seed mix for a buck a pound, so I feed them from that.

The Ritz and pop tarts, stale leftovers from my kids, but the mice love the stuff! and I don't feel like my kids are wasting food if it still gets a good use.

The exercise wheels, well that would be kinda wrong to NOT provide that for them, since they cannot run far in a tote.

Only the moms ever get a name

[Loren]

Sounds like they are well taken care of Wayne. By the way, I wasnt refering to any of this thread's beginning posts when I posted ealier today- I actually just started reading this long thread and didnt read it all yet. :)

[Hornets23]

I actually had mice as pets for a long time before I ever thought about getting snakes. It seems like a practical idea to have a litter here and there to feed the pinkies to the snakes though...I only have two snakes, so i wouldn't need a lot of them.

[infernalis]

Sounds like they are well taken care of Wayne. By the way, I wasnt refering to any of this thread's beginning posts when I posted ealier today- I actually just started reading this long thread and didnt read it all yet. :)

Sorry if it sounded as if I was getting defensive, I tend to sound that way sometimes.

I read the opening post again today, and realized how misleading it looked.

I kinda go for the happy cow analogy, happy food is healthy food.

Still sucks when I whack a mouse over the head before I feed it off.

Finally got a system down that works, sounds cruel, but really it's not, I spin them once by the tail onto a hunk of steel to execute them just moments prior to feeding.

I used to place them in with the snakes alive (totally natural, the way it works in the wild) until one bit a chunk out of my Pueblan. Now I pre-kill prior to placing in the cage.

[Hornets23]

Is it necessary to pre-kill pinkies?

[infernalis]

no it is not, rather hard to do without a C02 chamber.

It does take some thick skin, since it does seem cruel, but hey we feed live fishies and worms also and they are living creatures also.

Pinkies have no teeth, so they are not going to bite the snake.

The most barbaric of all, our Savannah Monitor "Chomper" he brutally bashes the poor mouse into his rock pile before he sucks them down.

I cannot watch:eek: Sometimes he just "inhales" the mousie before it even makes it to the floor of his cage!

However, when he smashes the big hissing cockroach into a gross pudding, I don't feel much remourse....

[Rook]

we do, but I dont know how nessasary it is.

with our Gerbils, they are pets first and formost, with large cages, deep bedding, lots of toys and chewies, high quality food etc.. we only breed the best temperments, we will cancel plans to use one as a breeder if they get sick at any point in life etc.. they are treated like any other pet, we just happen to skim pinkies off of litters for the snake(soon to be snakeS)

[Hornets23]

Yeah, I think thats pretty much what I would be doing too.

[Loren]

I feed some live, some fresh killed, some thawed. Anything big enough to bite hard is killed first, unless its one of the very few snakes I have that only eat live rodents. I have had a couple kingsnakes get roughed up by adult mice years back, and it affected their feeding habits for a real long time.
Anything fed a live rodent that is old enough to bite hard should be supervised, or at least not left alone for more than several minutes at a time(some picky eaters wont eat with you watching).

[Loren]

Sorry if it sounded as if I was getting defensive, I tend to sound that way sometimes.



Didnt think you were- just makin' sure I hadnt offended. :)

[GartersRock]

Uh oh... I may be thinking about getting a baby male double rex (mostly hairless) rat at the next expo! Ahh! What am I thinking?? He would be a pet... But should I??

[CrazyHedgehog]

Loren, I think you'll find - at the risk of offending the FemaNazis that may be here - it's going to be usually women that have the prob of using raised anjumuls for feeders. Personally, I think it's gender related.


Opinion.

hmmm had to laugh at this, as my bf can't kill them. he even lets me know which ones he has become attached to that I am not allowed to kill!!

I must admit, it was hard at first... we actually were almost overrun by the time I plucked up courage to do it... but it does become easier... I asked rspca for advice on killing and felt better knowing I was doing it the way they felt was most humane.

[infernalis]

Didnt think you were- just makin' sure I hadnt offended. :)

That is one of the things that makes me so proud to be part of this group, we respect each others feelings and opinions.

[drache]

hmmm had to laugh at this, as my bf can't kill them. he even lets me know which ones he has become attached to that I am not allowed to kill!!

I must admit, it was hard at first... we actually were almost overrun by the time I plucked up courage to do it... but it does become easier... I asked rspca for advice on killing and felt better knowing I was doing it the way they felt was most humane.
it just occurred to me that there are many things that are difficult in the beginning and that the skill involved is a factor
I'm sure that a big part of what makes it difficult is not just the fact that one is killing, but the fear that one cannot do it skillfully enough to spare the critter unnecessary pain
with practice that part is addressed

[infernalis]

I'm sure that a big part of what makes it difficult is not just the fact that one is killing, but the fear that one cannot do it skillfully enough to spare the critter unnecessary pain
with practice that part is addressed

Once again I applaud you...

When I first started doing this, Killing was messy, and sometimes ineffective, with each time it got better and faster, now it is over in one swift whack:eek:

[Aundrea]

I still just couldnt do it. Im too much of a softy and too wimpy LOL :D I would just feel so bad.

[Garter_Gertie]

As much of a strong woman as I am, there is no way I could. I cringe feeding live fish! Inge, maybe it isn't so gender related after all. Thing is tho, the majority of women have that mothering/nurturing 'instinct' that I think may come to the fore. I think that's what I meant and maybe that' saying it better. (shrugs shoulders) I don't know!

I think what did it for me, convinced me, was Lori's story. I've still horrible visions and sounds in my head over THAT one!

[GartersRock]

I sometimes have to feed live geckos..... I HATE it in a way...They squeek. But it doesn't bother me in another way... I wouldn't say I am desensitized. I just have seperate places in my head and heart for feeders and for pets (I have kept rodents etc as pets and love them and would NEVER feed them, but I have fed live (or purchased live and killed) over the years on many occasion)
I just seperate them and move on. But thats just me. *shrugs*

[Garter_Gertie]

"You're a better man than I, Ghunga Din."

[GartersRock]

Lol! I don't know about that. ;)

[Loren]

I just have seperate places in my head and heart for feeders and for pets


Thats pretty much what it takes.

[CrazyHedgehog]

As much of a strong woman as I am, there is no way I could. I cringe feeding live fish! !

I must admit, I can't do the swift whack thing...I can't bring myself to do the 'physical' act.....gassing is ok, a little gas very slowly till they pass out and then put full on for a minute or so!

and yes I strill cringe...:(

[GartersRock]

The easiest way I have ever done. And this is gross. Is to put the mouse in a pillow case and smack it on a hard surface. SOOOO quick. I have NEVER had any mouse be alive when I checked inside. It's kind of ugly. But as quick and easy as you can get. But I hate doing it.

[Garter_Gertie]

I'm checkin' outta here. I cannot take this.

[GartersRock]

Sorry Gertie.....

[Snake lover 3-25]

ick!!!! i could never do that!!!!....... but i bet i could get my brother or dad to do it...... you gotta do what you gotta do...... but i'd need help to do it....:)

[Seere121]

Right now I'm feeding 3 adult Ball Pythons, 2 juvenile Carpet pythons, 2 nearly adult Corn snakes, 3 juvenile Corn snakes, and 3 adult garter snakes. They're all mouse trained, and every week to two weeks, I spend nearly $40 at petco for the 7 adult mice, and nearly 20 or so fuzzies. Would setting up a breeder colony for this ammount snakes be worth it? I have no problems with killing the mice. Before i got the baby snakes, all i was able to find for my first BP was live so I would just pinch the neck and it would die instantly. Another solution I'm thinking about is buying a 6 month supply from mice direct, but the $80 a month for the snakes now is keeping me from saving enough to make a $250 online purchace.

[infernalis]

We are feeding 1 BP, 1 Savannah Monitor, 2 Milk snakes, 1 corn snake and several larger adult garters.

The initial costs were 1 large tote box $5, 3 female mice & 1 male mouse $10 a bale of pine chips $10, a bag of mouse feed $5

So for $30 initial investment, we have saved hundreds in only a few months time.

Oh and water bottles & a feed dish, a couple bucks more.

Once the mice begin producing, they will drop babies like crazy!!

[jitami]

Seere, I don't know if you're in a rural or suburban area, but try to find a local mouse breeder who sells them out of their house or small reptile store. I posted an add on craigslist in my area and came up with two people who breed and sell mice & rats out of their homes. One charges 70 cents for pinkies and fuzzies and one 90 cents. I was paying about twice that for one pinky at Petco!

[Loren]

I agree with the 3 options here so far besides petco- local breeder (usually found with craigslist), breed your own, or order from mice direct or rodent pro.
I cant imagine paying petco prices for anything over a couple snakes.

I feed 65-85 snakes, most of them rodent eaters, and I raise my own mice and rats. It was an investment to get started, but I found used lab cages on ebay, and now that everything is bought, I just buy dogfood.
Just make sure you read the parts of this thread that talk about the smell. :)

[Loren]

Do you have any friends that might split an online order with you? Then you wouldnt have to save up as much at a time, but you could still fill the box enough to make the shipping average out to a reasonable amount per rodent.
A full box costs only slightly more to ship than a partially filled one, at least with rodent pro.

[infernalis]

Interesting day on the mouse farm.

Anyone remember the photo from last week?

http://www.danceswithreptiles.com/stuff/sm.jpg

Well this morning another litter was born, and the newborns were slowly getting shoved to the bottom of that pile:eek:

There is another breeder mom who does not get along well with other adult mice, she is kept alone in a tote with just her babies.

Her recent litter is now in the "hopper" stage of development, and she is weaning them away from her, yet she is still lactating fine.

So we moved a dozen or so of the more developed "fuzzy" mice from this pile over to her home.

Well, she immediately "adopted" the strange babies, and now she gets to be a super mom for a while.

Worked out really good, I just checked on everyone, and those newborn pinks are getting plenty of milk, the moms are getting some rest, and the solitary mom has not even noticed that I stole a few of her kids:eek:

[ssssnakeluvr]

nice photo....wish my mice would get busy!!!!!!!!! :mad:

[Aundrea]

awwwwwww I just love that pic. Its just so cute. But poor mom gets no ALONE time with all them babies. I would go crazy :eek: LOL

[GartersRock]

Interesting! And yes, I love that pic too!! :D

[Lori P]

Don, I thought mine would never start breeding!! Mice can be so difficult... I lost another pregnant momma last week, too, and man, I hate that. No reason that I knew of, she just was dead in the feed dish. But hang in there, it seems like once a couple of them start, and you can get a good solid family unit established, they go nuts.

Here's one of my worries... will the females just breed till they drop or will they stop breeding at a certain age?? I hate to think I'm allowing them to breed to death...

[ssssnakeluvr]

I have found in the past that after a while when they get older they just stop breeding. I have had some successful breeding groups in the past..but this batch just aint quite into it yet.....

[infernalis]

We have been very fortunate, the original "top moms" have seemed to pass the nurturing skills down to the offspring, producing another generation of really good parents:D

The crazy ones that kill babies, well they get to meet Mr. Python:eek:

[Aundrea]

Meet Mr Python? LOL :eek: hahahaha thats funny!!!!

[GartersRock]

I tried breeding mice several years back. Changed my mind for various reasons. Want to do it as soon as I have the room to do it right.

Anyways.

I had a female who ATE two adult males before she had her babies.... o0 She had plenty of food... I think she was protecting her babies. Very odd. All that was lieft was some fur. Rofl!!

[Hornets23]

She just ATE them? Could they have died first?

[GartersRock]

Nope. They were alive and healthy but she had been chasing them alive that night. In the morning they where gone. Female was fat.
I would have removed them while she was chasing them but I had no idea she would EAT them. So yes. She ate them alive. o0

[Hornets23]

Wow, that is pretty crazy. I had no idea that was possible.

[crzy_kevo]

wow that is crazy ive heard of a mom eating her babies but not 2 full grown males

[Loren]

I tried breeding mice several years back. Changed my mind for various reasons. Want to do it as soon as I have the room to do it right.

Anyways.

I had a female who ATE two adult males before she had her babies.... o0 She had plenty of food... I think she was protecting her babies. Very odd. All that was lieft was some fur. Rofl!!


My experience has been that the only males that will survive with adult female mice are ones that are raied with them from a fairly young age. Either that or introduce only one female to a new male at a time. Introduce a new male to an established group of adult females, and they will kill him almost every time.

[GartersRock]

See!! I am NOT crazy! Yay!
(or maybe a little. :D )

I can only imagine what was going through the poor guys minds while they are being chased down. ;)

[infernalis]

Females will also get aggressive toward a freshly introduced adult female.

Whenever any new mouse is introduced, observation is required to ensure that no violence breaks out.

Mice are very protective, especially when there is a litter of babies in the mix.

My one harem that produces the most food is a very tightly knit social group.

Only 2 males exist in there, the original and one that was born in there.

We have allowed several females to develop and reach maturity in addition to the 3 originals.

Babies on the other hand will be adopted instantly by either colony:D

[GartersRock]

Thanks for the info Wayne!
(Just made the Bruce Wayne, Harvey Dent connection after seeing Batman for the third time yesterday. Rofl!!!)

[CrazyHedgehog]

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/P8250500.JPG

just thought I would post the chamber....

[infernalis]

Nice chamber.

Looks like the mad rapist got his way before I fed him off.

Momma is getting huge again, and no males have been present since I caught dad killing babies.

Decided to keep one of the non related males she raised from the other colony, She raised him, and he is already accepted in the colony. Set aside a few sisters from the first litter, they are not related to the male, so it works out nicely in establishing another harem..

[infernalis]

Yikes, My best producing harem has finally "burned out"

The moms stopped feeding the babies, then brained several hoppers, When I tore the mess down today I found 4 pinkies (newborn) all starved to death in the shavings!

Then top it off, one of the males critically wounded little Blondie!

She is the one in the picture taking care of a whole pile of babies.

Now we got to sort the whole mess out, and try to get them back to breeding normally....

[Lori P]

Oh no!!! That is just heartbreaking.... what IS it with these mice??

Did you change anything at all?? What set them off on this distructive path?? I've been so relaxed about mine lately, they're all just a-breeding away... now I'm wondering if it's all going to blow up!!

So sorry Wayne!!

[Hornets23]

Wow, sounds like they went a little psycho. I have pet mice....really hope they dont go crazy like that.

[infernalis]

I think they just had enough, after sexing out, I found that there were too many males.

The other day one of the moms expired, and I think that created a shortage of milk, so some babies were left unfed.

It boils down to too many mice in one tank.

To answer before asked, they are kept in a huge hope chest like tote, prolly around 50 gallon size.

Decided to break it down to several smaller groups.

The little pinks, they were not even spoiled yet, so I put them in the freezer for the baby milk snakes to eat later.

Blondie was messed up bad, so I gave her to the Pueblan Milk snake.

The brained hopper mice, my corn snake ate them right up.

[Hornets23]

well, at least the mice were still eatable.

[jitami]

Weird... but I have a feeling it's fairly common. Sorry to hear about Blondie. That is an adorable picture of her feeding all the babies! Good luck getting everything sorted out!

[CrazyHedgehog]

I have made mistakes before with males and sure enough in too close proximity they will fight to the death :(

They can be fickle and only produce well for about 10 months... after that they are food I am afraid and a fresh tank is created from the teenagers...

I created mine using tubs, made hundreds of air holes using a solder iron, the tubs cost about £2.20 each so a fairly cheap set up...
(and in the shed so they don't stink the house out!):eek:
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/mousecages.jpg

[infernalis]

Inge - So glad you chimed in. I almost sent you a PM .I consider you to be our local mouse expert, just from the volume of mice produced and your awesome shed.

This colony was created 6 months ago with an initial purchase of 3 females and one male.

Learned right away not to introduce any new adults to a colony once it begins breeding and producing.

The ratio got out of balance by allowing too many of the male offspring to reach maturity.

Up until recently the mice were all well behaved, but I was starting to notice that there seemed to be only 3 mice feeding the "baby pile" remarkably 3 ladies can have so many litters so close together that it would be easy to think there were more females producing.

the other 2 colonies I have are created from (mostly) offspring from the first colony with only a couple fresh females added along the way. (Even noticed that introducing new females can sometimes have a violent outcome)

The first clue that something was out of balance, I had about a dozen hopper mice that had scruffy looking hair, were extremely undersized and just looked unhealthy all around. (Obviously malnourished)

The second colony was fairly new, and one young mom had just produced her fist (very small 4) litter, so we transferred a number of pinks/fuzzies over and she "adopted" them right away.

Things were looking a lot better for a moment, then she had her second litter, that took priority and she gave a bunch of barely weened babies "the boot" and exciled them to the other end of the tank.

We fed off the excess and tried to balance it back out. Seems to have worked, since all is well with that colony.

Started the third colony from the most robust of that batch, however some of them seem to have suffered stunted growth from lack of proper milk during development.

Any advice you may have to offer would be appreciated:D

[infernalis]

Well balance has been restored, and 2 moms made nice litters for us:D

After breaking it down, I found that we had 5 males competing to get at 3 females! way out of "tune"

Then when the one female passed, it was down to two and that was what caused all the problems.

Now the numbers are evened back out, they are producing again.

[jitami]

Ok, Wayne, so how bad is the smell, really? It sure is tempting to give it a try...

[infernalis]

Tami - we have 3 totes in our bedroom, one in the snake room, one in my sons room, and 2 rats in the daughters room.

If you keep the cages clean, the smell is minimal, neglect the cage for a week, and the smell does get ripe.

a whole bale of pine shavings is quite cheap, and having mice on hand when the snakes get hungry is well worth it to me.

As with any animals, when we breed them in numbers, there will be losses to deal with. Its all part of it.

whenever a mouse goes nuts and kills pinkies, just feed whats left to the garters:D

[jitami]

Thanks Wayne... hmmmmmm...... :)

[infernalis]

Well I finally broke down and did it, I placed my first order with Rodent Pro:D

I am very impressed, They have a caller ID wired to a computer, when the operator answers, they already have the order in front of them! (provided you have previously completed your online shopping cart)

The shipping was more than fair, $35 for express with dry ice is cheap!! The price for the pinks was too good to pass up 12 cents each.

hoppers were 22 cents each. by purchasing 400 mice it works out really well.

Then we can let the ones I breed reach adulthood, (for the python, corn and milks)

Chomp inhales the mice so fast that I am afraid one may tear him up from the inside, so I ordered 200 hopper mice for him.

The pinks I ordered are the really tiny ones, perfect for starting these little garters on.

When I broke it all down, I could not produce 400 rodents for 100 dollars myself if I tried. Thats a lot of feed and upkeep!!

[Loren]

35 bucks for shipping is great! I guess because you live closer to rodentpro than me, but I am thinking we usually pay closer to 80 for shipping afull box out on the west coast, and partial boxes were only slightly cheaper.

As for my breeding, rats are filling the bulk of my snakes diets these days- what remains of my mouse colony is producing just enough to keep up with the little guys and the ones that wont take rats. I am running 6 large tubs of 1.3 rats, and a few small tubs of 1.3 mice right now, and just started a large tub with 1.8 mice.
I love my rat rack, I can clean, feed, and water all 6 tubs in about 15 minutes.

[Lori P]

One of my breeding group has just stopped breeding. They produced 5 or 6 litters, then just stopped. Not sure what's going on with them!! I'm not pleased. I scolded them mercilessly last night, but they just looked up at me and wiggled their whiskers... no respect!! lol

Loren, can adult garters take pinky or fuzzy rats or are they too big?

[Loren]

Breeder mice should be replaced every year- I think breeders like rodent pro probably only run them 6-9 months. After that, productivity slows. Maybe your mice are getting to that point?

My coast garter and mount Diablo Aquatic garter have no problem eating rat pinkies that are a few days old. They are young adult garters - not huge by any means. My mountain garter just barely can. The others are still on mice, mostly due to size, although the sierra just wont touch rats.

To give an idea, this would be the size snake I would say would comfortably eat an average rat pinky. Its my diablo (old pic though, shes grown since). My mountain garter(second pic) is a fair bit smaller, and can just eat the smallest pinks in the rats litter.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Mount_Diable_Garter_2.JPG

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Mountain_Garter.jpg

[Stefan-A]

Loren, can adult garters take pinky or fuzzy rats or are they too big?
Pinky rats should be around 6 grams, which is about as much as a 2-2.5 week old mouse. My female parietalis has taken 30 gram mice.

[Loren]

Lori, rodent pro lists all the sizes and ages of mice and rats on their site too, if you want to compare aproximate sizes at all different ages.

Stefan, that sounds like a pretty healthy sized garter.

[Topaz]

I personally cannot breed my own feeders, as much as I have thought about it. I get too attached too quickly, and couldn't decide who stayed and who died. So instead when I do rarely breed a rat (for the female's health, it reduces the chance of tumors,) we adopt the ones we don't keep to pet only homes, which usually go to people we already know. We haven't bred mice yet, but I do occasionally breed soft fur rats as pets for myself. I can't hold and interact with them as much as the domestic rats and mice, but they're fun to watch. I only keep very few of the ones I breed, and the rest go to a wildlife and reptile rescue as donation (who uses CO2 before feeding them off.) So I can have the babies, not become overwhelmed with large numbers, and still have a clear conscious.

Instead, I buy frozen feeders from Petco who gets them from a company called Gourmet Rodent. We spend about 6 dollars a week to feed 6 snakes, so that's not bad, IMO. They're by far our cheapest pets.

Quick question for folks here that feed f/t - How long does a rodent keep in the freezer before going bad? I've thought about stocking up and ordering from rodent pro many times, but I don't want to get more than the snakes will eat before the food goes bad.

[Stefan-A]

Stefan, that sounds like a pretty healthy sized garter.
The mice were oversized, but I didn't have anything else that could eat them. I'm not about to make a habit out of it.

YouTube - Mighty Mouse 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2moaOcr5JAM)

[Zephyr]

I've decided I'm gonna raise a pair of mice for feeder-breeders.
I won't have the adult garters around all winter, so their young will be for my corn snakes.
I'll be using CO2 from dry ice to euthanize them; I probably won't get attached to the young because I'll know they'll be for my snakes...

[Garter_Gertie]

Kenabec, my normal Hoggy (can I say that here?) wasn't eating. Hadn't eaten in in 2.5 weeks though Niizh (my green, pride and joy Hoggy) had.

So, the breeder said he'd take Kenabec back to 'recondition' from live to f/t pinkies...

Well, I figured *I* could do that. So last week I went to TCR (Twin Cities Reptiles) for a live pinkie. :rolleyes:

AND FREAKED OUT WHEN I SAW THEM!!! :eek:

No WAY can I kill a living creature even when I know blah, blah, blah, blah. Can't do it. Just can't. THEY WERE SO CUTE AND ALIVE!!!!!!!!!

So, today, Kenabec went back to the breeder for HIM to recondition.

I'm a wuss. I'm pathetic. I've no back bone and am spineless.

I like me! :D

[CrazyHedgehog]

Keep a record!!
I set a white board up in the shed, and every time I take pinkies or mice out of a tub, I tally up the total on the board for that tub. Its surprising, some tubs have produced over 150 mice, where others have done nothing. By dating when the tubs are set out too, I can see if it is a productive tank or not.
lack of production can be from several things, a failed male, a male too small against bully females, one female eating the babies, mis-sexed male(ie all female)etc....If unproductive for several months, then the adults from that box are entered into the food chain! (along with any weak looking, or ones with tumours, or trouble makers etc...)

mixing adult mice
If however you are creating a new box from existing adults, put a male in first and leave him for a day, then add the females. This way, its his box and the females will accept that they are his!!!
If you just mix or add the females first and often the females will put up a rather brutal fight!

Unless you have gigantic cages and can keep colonies, keep to one male per tank.
Males will fight to the death.:eek:

Baby mice neglected
Sometimes a mom will see bigger baby mice in the tank, think hers are
not good enough against them, so will neglect hers and pinch the bigger older ones. If you can't separate them then I usually freeze the new pinkies before they are left.:(

A mom will not usually have another litter for at least 4 weeks, by then the larger pinkies can fend for themselves, however, once a mom becomes a mom a few times, they tend to just muck in with all babies, and thats when things get out of sinc... and when babies of a few weeks are neglected, basically, another aunt took over, so the real mom didn't bother, but then the aunt had her own... now the first ones are orphaned. These will usually survive because they will fight to get to the mouse with milk. but often they are smaller weaker mice. I usually only choose the fittest to make breeders, these weaker ones are gassed as small hoppers.:(

I have it quite well under control now, but I still make the odd mistake, and sometimes I will have a totally unexplained death????

Smell :mad:
With this many, yes it stinks, however, clear out old substrate regularly and it helps,
The less males you have, the less smell.
When you clean a tank, try dry wiping it, (not washing it) as the male mouse will still smell his scent and will not feel the need to spray everything again. I only disinfect and scrub when either setting up a new tank, or if it gets really bad like the water bottle has leaked etc....

Help?:confused:
I am not an expert, however have a fairly good track record, if you have a question, please feel free to ask me.:)

[Loren]

Very well said, Inge- everything you said is true as far as my personal experience goes. :) ... except I have never been able to stay up on keeping records. I'll do it for a while, then slack off.
I have no trouble keeping good records on my snakes, but the mice are just too much to keep track of for me.

Definitelty the best is to have a good record system of some sorts though.

[jitami]

Aaaahhhh... just went to pick up mice from a new supplier... met her in a parking lot none the less... was expecting 25 frozen pinkies & 25 frozen fuzzies... she hands me this deli cup with squirming piles of babies in it... deep breath...more deep breaths... My fault I would have sworn she said frozen in her craigslist ad, but I didn't specify either way.. Sly & Ella enjoyed their live fuzzies, babies wouldn't get near squirming live pinkies... found a new use for ice cube trays... yeah... I'm still a little shaky, but a woman's gotta do whatever it takes to feed the kiddos, right? (Sigh...)

[Lori P]

You did fine Tami... those babies go very, very quickly in the ice cube trays. It's not pleasant, ever, but it does get easier with time. A bit...

[jitami]

Thanks Lori... and you're right, they did go very quickly. By the time I was putting the second ice tray in the first little ones were already gone... I just keep telling myself that it's no different than buying pre-frozen mice.

[infernalis]

Woo Hoo!!! my rodent pro order came today.

My freezer smokes when you open it:D I put that dry ice in there, it will lower my energy bill for a couple days.

These mice are top shelf, and I am going in to the snake room right now and watch a bunch disappear:eek:

the pinks are tiny and the fuzzy hoppers perfect size....

Next time I order, anyone who lives close by me, I can forward mice with the existing dry ice for cheap shipping. (we split the order)

My silly 12 year old daughter picked up a brick of raw dry ice bare handed (he he) she won't do that again soon.

[Zephyr]

Woo Hoo!!! my rodent pro order came today.

My freezer smokes when you open it:D I put that dry ice in there, it will lower my energy bill for a couple days.

These mice are top shelf, and I am going in to the snake room right now and watch a bunch disappear:eek:

the pinks are tiny and the fuzzy hoppers perfect size....

Next time I order, anyone who lives close by me, I can forward mice with the existing dry ice for cheap shipping. (we split the order)

My silly 12 year old daughter picked up a brick of raw dry ice bare handed (he he) she won't do that again soon.lol
Wayne, I'm getting an order in next week;
should be interesting.
I'll be preserving the dry ice for use as my euthanatory (?) substance when I start my mouse "colony."
Coincidentally, for any one seeking dry ice, my chem teacher says Meijer's sells it at the front. :)

[infernalis]

I'll be preserving the dry ice


how may I ask?????? do you have a super freezer or a pressure vessel?

Votes are in, Everyone who was offered thawed mice ate them, Carmella I had to tug the mouse with the hemostats, if it did not offer a "fight" she spit it right out.

We played this little game, she ate 3 mice. The Corn snake, milks and Chomp all ate them up quick.

Chomper is a riot, he still beats the crap out of the dead mouse before he eats it!

[Zephyr]

To answer the preserving question Wayne, I'll be placing it in the freezer wrapped tightly in either butcher's paper or or paper bag; Just gotta keep it as a closed system. :P

[infernalis]

yep, if you leave it alone it should last a while.

Our ice cream is rock hard.:D

[Zephyr]

yep, if you leave it alone it should last a while.

Our ice cream is rock hard.:D
That doesn't sound very appetizing.
Although it would be alluring to try and touch your tongue to it. lol

[GartersRock]

Well... I am breeding rats now! My dumbo beige irish girl had a litter of 7!! Keeping all but 2 as pets/breeders. Finding a pet home for the 2 remaining females :D CUTE CUTE CUTE!! 3 Beige Capped Dumbos and 4 Beige Irish Dumbos. OMG! CUTENESS!! They are almost 4 weeks now. I'll post pics soon. And my Siamese had 5 babies yesterday. :D Waiting until I can JUST see the colors and will be keeping 1 or 2 out of that litter then feeding the rest.

But yeah.... Feeder breeding when the adults are your pets is gonna be HARD. *cries*

[infernalis]

Yep, I like these a lot better. Every one of the adult Garters took pinks today.

It's less work, costs less and has less problems attached.

All the pinky legs are broke off, so there is like a big pile of pinkie legs, I wonder if I chop up fish, and mix it with pinky legs, the babies would probably eat that:D

These are flash frozen to a temperature far colder than we could achieve at home, killing any and all bacteria. The ones that were left overnight for the milks to eat, did not even smell yet this morning. (The garters ate them!)

[GartersRock]

LOL!! I love feeding my baby garters all those rodentpro pink legs. :D

[Lori P]

And my Siamese had 5 babies yesterday. :D Waiting until I can JUST see the colors and will be keeping 1 or 2 out of that litter then feeding the rest.

Omg... I just got on here, after talking on the phone to some lady who wants to dump her Siamese cat and litter of kittens on us, and I read this... lololol.... and my heart just dropped when I read you were gonna feed your Siamese kittens... LOL I get it now, they're rats, but my first impression was that you were talking about kittens. :eek: :rolleyes:

[Aundrea]

OMG Lori that is too funny!!!!

I want to see pics.. I think the dumbo rats are cute!!! Heck I even like the hairless ones :D

[GartersRock]

ROFL!! I am so sorry Lori!! lol!! Yes rats. lol
Aundrea, I took pics yesterday I think of the babies. :D I'll post asap. They are SOO cute!! Dumbos are my favorite and now I LOVE hairless! A few months ago I thought they where *gag*. But I LOVE them now. :D

[infernalis]

OMG I need bigger tongs!!

My Ball Python has always ate live prey, until last night.

I thawed out 4 of the rodent pro mice, and the first two went perfect. (They were still quite warm from sitting in the cup of hot water)

The final 2 had cooled down a bit, And his heat pits zeroed in on my hand twice! garter bites are funny, but Caine has a lot of power to his "Hit":eek:

The only other snake I have that hits anywhere close is Limon. Since he is arboreal, he can "hit" with almost all his body length, and when he cocks back and strikes, it hurts like hell.

[Lori P]

He switched that easily from live to f/t??!!! What is he, some kind of mutant bp??!! I'm excited for you!! Congrats!!

[infernalis]

I'd like to keep him on a variety, Every once in a while I can get small rats for a dollar each, one of those fills Caine up for about a week.

[Lori P]

AND he eats both mice and rats?? Mine run from rats like they are the devil spawn himself. LOL Altho, Fluffy will eat f/t baby chicks. Weird...

[infernalis]

Cain is my first Ball Python, So this is the only behavior I have known.

They never really caught my attention, seemed so "common" as a pet.

However when I saw the way this poor guy was being treated, the utter lack of care, I had to get him out of there.

And like most critters, he grew on me:D

Its just like the mice, I have all this convenient fast food at my disposal now, but I can't quite give up the mouse colony????

They are interesting critters, and I've seen it all as far as mice behavior.

[Lori P]

I'm fond of the mice in general, too. And now this one is giving me heart pain because he's so darn creative. He went into Desdemona's tank this morning (she is the one who will only eat live) and a couple of hours later, assuming he was long gone, I was looking at her and thinking, hmm, she doesn't have the bulge she normally does... and then I spotted him. Can you see him? First person to spot him gets the mouse delivered to them as a pet because now I feel REALLY bad!!!!!! He's so smart...

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/mouse_in_des_tank_002_resize.jpg

[Zephyr]

I'm fond of the mice in general, too. And now this one is giving me heart pain because he's so darn creative. He went into Desdemona's tank this morning (she is the one who will only eat live) and a couple of hours later, assuming he was long gone, I was looking at her and thinking, hmm, she doesn't have the bulge she normally does... and then I spotted him. Can you see him? First person to spot him gets the mouse delivered to them as a pet because now I feel REALLY bad!!!!!! He's so smart...

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/mouse_in_des_tank_002_resize.jpg
HE'S UP IN THE WOOD PIPE!!!
The one made of that... driftwood... Type stuff. Center of the photo. :D

[jitami]

How stinkin' cute! He is a smart little guy :)

[Lori P]

(Packing for the trip to Michigan) Yes!!! No-one else has ever gotten in that wood-- those are actually piece of cholla wood we glued to the back of the tank. He's been in there all day.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/mouse_in_des_tank_004_resize.jpg

It has baffled the heck out of Desdemona-- she's gone back to bed. LOL He's in there now, sleeping!!!

[Zephyr]

God only knows how he did it.
lol
LORI... Is it okay if I use him as a stud? :O

[Loren]

For the record- I saw it too!

I dont want him though- I'd just feed him to something. :)

Be careful about leaving them alone together for too long- I had a cal king get roughed up pretty bad by a mouse a few years ago. Didnt eat anything but lizards for the year following. She's still a picky feeder.
Seems less likely in your cage though, since the mouse has plenty of room to run and hide. Its when they are cornered that they get real mean.

[Zephyr]

Um, for the record, how does one HANDLE mice?
By the tail?
I just need to know for cleanings...

[Stefan-A]

By the tail, for example. The ones I had protested loudly if you tried to pick them up any other way. They usually don't bite.

[Zephyr]

Ah, okay.
Otherwise I think I've got the other husbandry issues worked out.
I'll pick up some rodent feeder pellets at the next reptile show or at the local feed store.
Do grains/seeds work okay too?

[Loren]

I also handle by tails. grab fairly close to the mouse where the tail is thicker and stronger.

I feed dogfood for protein - throw in some grains/seeds for complete nutrition.
Not enough protein sometimes sometimes results in babies getting eaten by a protein starved mom.
I personally use atta boy because it seems to have less additives and dyes than a lot of other cheap brands. I've heard red dyes can be bad for snakes, but dont know if its true.

[infernalis]

I feed ol Roy and the local pet store sells hamster mix cheap, and my oldest daughter grew a heap of sunflowers this year.

We have access to farm corn as well, very cheap.

Some of my mice like to be handled and one great producing mom will sit in my hand and not protest or jump out.

Most I just grab by the tail.

[Zephyr]

Hooray.
Looks like I've got a good start; I'll only be keeping a pair in am approximately 8" by 15" sterilite container. I'll have food and water dishes; I've got most of the container on the coarser carefresh and a small "nest" on the other with carefresh ultra. I'll be making hides and whatnot out of popsicle sticks. :P

[crzy_kevo]

i have been thinking about raising feeder mice i wont need a bunch of mice to produce pinkies though since i will only have 6 snake and only 2 that are large enough at the moment to eat them
how often do mice produce yooung?

[CrazyHedgehog]

I'll have food and water dishes;

Please tell me you mean water bottle not dish?:confused:
They will throw stuff in a dish, tip it, and just generally make a mess!:eek:

[CrazyHedgehog]

how often do mice produce yooung?

Depends if you remove pinkies or not...

if you remove pinkies and all is well, expect more in about 4 weeks...
If you leave pinkies in, it might be anywhere between 4 to 8 weeks..

very first litter is quite small 4 or 5 small pinkies... usually get between 9 and 14 pinkies.. they slow breeding after 10 months as they get to old...

[infernalis]

Please tell me you mean water bottle not dish?:confused:
They will throw stuff in a dish, tip it, and just generally make a mess!:eek:


They will completely ruin a dish of water six times a day:eek:

[Lori P]

Ok, first of all, I hope you know I was joking about sending anyone the mouse-- I'm not shipping a mouse! LOL But it's a mute point as she did get him.

Yeah, what is it about the water dishes?!! What's the purpose there? Are they fond of mucky water?!

[Loren]

Ok, first of all, I hope you know I was joking about sending anyone the mouse-- I'm not shipping a mouse! LOL But it's a mute point as she did get him.



Sorry I am so late in responding Lori, I was waiting by the road for your mouse to show up! :)

[Zephyr]

Please tell me you mean water bottle not dish?:confused:
They will throw stuff in a dish, tip it, and just generally make a mess!:eek:Um... Well at such critical advice I think I'll be getting one of them gravity-dispensing water bottles. lol
I didn't know they'd be little Satans with a water bowl... XD

[Lori P]

They seem driven to fill the water bowls with every single thing they can get their mouth on... and then pee in the mess. I learned the hard way. lol And then when you give them clean water they drink and drink like, man, what took you so long?? That last water was nasty!! LOL

[CrazyHedgehog]

get a small water bottle for rabbits or hamsters...one with a ball bearing in the end... they are less than a pound here..

[Garter_Gertie]

They prolly weigh less than that here, too.

[Garter_Gertie]

SORRY!!!!!!!!!!

Couldn't help it! Yeah. I know... No one else found it funny. Sorry. Couldn't let it go by. Hit my funny bone big time.

I apologize.

[Zephyr]

lol
Yet another situation warranting a


FAIL.

[Lori P]

Gertie, I giggled a lot. LOL

[Garter_Gertie]

Lori, prolly cause you've a similar sense o'humor. Not NEAR as funny as Loren pining for his mouselette out at the mailbox - spewed beer all over my monitor on THAT ONE! LOL!!!

Who failed and what did they fail? I missed that.

[Loren]

I think Kyle failed to understand the "less than a pound" being made into a weight rather than money joke so he's pretending it wasnt funny :) :)

I use the 500 ml rodent bottles from Big Apple Herp for my mice. They work well. The bearing type only hold 8 ounces, and the next size up has too big of a spout ro be efficient with mice- leaks too much.

I use the bearing style lixit for the rats- 32 ounce, with the size spout you typically get on the 16 ounce. Many 32's come with the larger, rabbit sized spout- they leak too much with rats. Each size rodent can only drink so fast, but a certain amout comes out either way when they lick that ball.

[Loren]

Correction; I bought the bottles from this place last time cause they were cheaper. These bottles dont use bearings, and have a straight spout with a small hole in it. Just kinda depends on your setup as to what works best for you.

Breeder Cage Water Bottles [PI 80010 - 80011] - $3.49 : Critter-Cages.com (http://www.critter-cages.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=383)

[Zephyr]

I got a bottle on sale for $1.50.

And today I took the plunge.

As much as I hate doing things behind my parent's back, I bought a pair of mice today.
The male is big; probably right near the end of his prime.
The female is smaller; just maturing or matured I'd assume.

Everything seems good with the two of them so far; Plenty of food.
Will they work out how to drink from the water bottle I gave them on their own?

[Stefan-A]

They shouldn't have any problems figuring out how to use the water bottle, but if you want to be sure, you can put the water dish right underneath the bottle for a while.

I would also have gotten at least two females per male, to reduce the stress.

[Zephyr]

They shouldn't have any problems figuring out how to use the water bottle, but if you want to be sure, you can put the water dish right underneath the bottle for a while.

I would also have gotten at least two females per male, to reduce the stress.
I could always pick up another next week. As for now, I see no signs of aggression. If I do, I'll separate the male and leave the female in the main cage.

[Zephyr]

Also, what are some signs of aggression? I need to know what to look for; this is my first time with mammals.
And can older males still reproduce?

[Stefan-A]

Also, what are some signs of aggression? I need to know what to look for; this is my first time with mammals.
And can older males still reproduce?
Males of most species I know of can reproduce right until the end, so that shouldn't be a problem.

Signs of stress can include injured or dead males (you'll know when the female is fed up, there's fighting and screaming), refusal to mate, failure to reproduce and if they do reproduce, the female may kill the babies.

[Zephyr]

Okay, right now the male's cleaning himself and female's in one of the corners with her eyes closed (sleeping?)

Do you think she's been bullied?

[Stefan-A]

Nah, the females can take care of themselves. But they can get bloody annoyed and that can get ugly.

[Zephyr]

Oh my.
lol
So... The gals... Usually kill the guys?
Wow. Now THAT'S a shocker.

[Stefan-A]

Oh my.
lol
So... The gals... Usually kill the guys?
Wow. Now THAT'S a shocker.
I wouldn't say "usually", but it does happen from time to time. For example if you introduce a new male to an established group of females, or if a female gets too stressed out.

[Zephyr]

So... Does the female have the risk of rejecting the male, then getting herself eaten?

[Stefan-A]

Rephrase, please.

[Zephyr]

Miss Mousy doesn't want to mate. Mr Mousy gets mad and kills her.
Does that ever happen?
lol

[Stefan-A]

No. Mr Mousy doesn't get mad. The males of all the rodent species I've ever had, were always nicer than the females.

[Zephyr]

Oh wow.
lol

Also, on a somewhat less-than-appropriate note:
This mouse has the biggest balls/body size ratio I've ever seen.
LMAO

[Stefan-A]

Oh wow.
lol

Also, on a somewhat less-than-appropriate note:
This mouse has the biggest balls/body size ratio I've ever seen.
LMAO
YouTube - AC/DC - Big Balls (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B9pMJYXGBs)

[Lori P]

LOL. Mice have HUGE ones.

Don't be too upset if these mice don't do their thing for you, Kyle. I can't even remember how long it took me to get a breeding group... mice can be hard to get started.

[Hornets23]

Yeah, I had accidentally had a male with a group of females for probably about a week before I took a closer look...oops. He was fairly young so that may be how i got away with it. Now he is a lot older...and we named him mr. big.

[Zephyr]

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/7449/img1247fe4.jpg
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/3936/img1248jm7.jpg
The male is the albino. :P

[Lori P]

Oh I like the girl's colors! I need to get me some colors... no I don't... then I'd be like, oh, she's too cute to feed, oh, I like that one's markings... lol

[jitami]

no I don't... then I'd be like, oh, she's too cute to feed, oh, I like that one's markings... lol

One of the local breeders I buy from has mice with different colors and the fuzzies especially are so very very cute... a little too cute... thankfully that guy freezes them for me so by the time I see them there's no chance of me deciding to just keep this one or that one :o I'm really thinking about setting up a small breeding colony though... I'm looking at empty tanks now... I have a 5.5 gallon that could house a trio or I could divide the 15 gallon to house two trios... hmmmm...

[infernalis]

Ours are housed in poly totes.

And yes, we have "Adopted" more than one for being cute.

Fortunately, They just become the next generation of producing parents.

However, as soon as we name them, it becomes a little harder when something happens to them.

The mouse on the bottom is dying, look at the way the other mouse provided companionship and comfort.

At the time I took the picture, I thought they were just "bonding" the next morning, the brown one was in a really bad way, so I did the humane thing and put it down and fed it off.

Like I said once before, I will never look at mouse traps and poisons the same way again....

http://www.danceswithreptiles.com/stuff/2mice.jpg

[jitami]

aaawwwww... :(

[Zephyr]

Well... I broke down and told my parents...
That I have one. lol
So now I can feel free to move them into a 10 gallon on the highest shelf in my room, out of direct sight, and let them do their thing.

The tote wasn't working out for me... They trashed my lovely setup overnight.
So, I'ma dig out the ole' ceramic dishes and set things up a little more... Mouse proof. lol

[Lori P]

Good luck with that. They seem to like to arrange their own feng shui. No matter how "nice" I make their cages, they have them completely torn apart and rearranged by morning. :-)

[Zephyr]

Ceramics and plastics should stop that. lol

[Lori P]

Be sure to send pics!!! So what did mom & dad say about your "one" mouse? They ok?

[Zephyr]

Be sure to send pics!!! So what did mom & dad say about your "one" mouse? They ok?
Well, my mother would prefer it gone, but I named it so "he's" here to stay. lol
Just as long as she doesn't see it.

She does have this weird, distorted belief that mice grow into rats. lol

[Lori P]

Oh boy.... I took the plunge today.

I kept seeing an ad for free rats near me. I finally called and went and got 5 one-month-olds. They were the last they had, as they are getting out of reptiles and rodents. So I got the last ones...

Mostly because Fluffy (bp) now eats 4-5 full grown mice a week, and Squiggles eats 3-4 on average. So weanling rats are heavier and they could eat fewer... and I'm thinking that rat pups will work better for the Florida blues too.

Not sure tho. This one might be waaaaaay too hard. They're very skittish, and were living in really, really crappy conditions (I think they all have urine scald on their feet, their little plastic tub was literally wet and omg, had soooooo much filth in it... I'm glad I got them no matter what!!!!!) but yet they approach my hand and take treats-- so unlike the mice, who run in panic all the time.

We'll see where this goes I guess!!!!!!!

[Aundrea]

awwwwww I wanna see pics of them LOL :D

[Lori P]

I wanted to get pics, but now they've all burrowed straight down into the aspen and haven't come out!! I think they must just feel so good to have a clean, warm home... I'm going to let them settle for a bit. They are all white, so nothing exciting there.

OMG tho---- I had to run to the pet store earlier today and got to see hairless rats for the first time!!! I can't belive this but-- they were actually cute!!!!!

[reptile3]

Mostly because Fluffy (bp) now eats 4-5 full grown mice a week, and Squiggles eats 3-4 on average. So weanling rats are heavier and they could eat fewer... and I'm thinking that rat pups will work better for the Florida blues too.

my bp- George eats weaning rats, 1 every 4-5 days. Till I am done with those, then I am getting the next size up.
I feed him f/t

[reptile3]

Aundrea wants a hairless cat..LOL Hairless rats, i bet they were cute!!:D


I wanted to get pics, but now they've all burrowed straight down into the aspen and haven't come out!! I think they must just feel so good to have a clean, warm home... I'm going to let them settle for a bit. They are all white, so nothing exciting there.

OMG tho---- I had to run to the pet store earlier today and got to see hairless rats for the first time!!! I can't belive this but-- they were actually cute!!!!!

[GartersRock]

I love me hairless ratties. :D lol! When I first saw them thought they where hideous but I LOVE mine. :D

[Loren]

I love me hairless ratties. :D lol! When I first saw them thought they where hideous but I LOVE mine. :D
If they grow on you, then I guess I havent seen them enough times yet :)

[Aundrea]

OMG I want a hairless rat hahaha and a hairless cat :D

[NetBSD]

OMG I want a hairless rat hahaha and a hairless cat :D


lol, my cousin (shes 15) shaved her cat, all but the head. just looks like a big sewer rat now

[Aundrea]

lol, my cousin (shes 15) shaved her cat, all but the head. just looks like a big sewer rat now

hahahahaha a big sewer rat. I would love to see a pic of that :D

[Zephyr]

Today, mama mouse had her first litter.
Unfortunately, I caught her eating one, so I had to do something I never thought I'd have to so soon.
I euthanized the rest, so that I could use them as snake food before ma ate them.
It wasn't the hardest thing to do, (Euthanizing my crippled snake last year was harder)
But I hope things don't continue this way. It was mum's first litter, so that could explain things.
):

[Loren]

Thats too bad. First litters are more likely to be cannibalized I think. Sometimes one or 2 are still born and the mom will just eat them.

[CrazyHedgehog]

canabilism is really common on the first litter, don't worry too much. usually ok by second litter and not panicing as much, but as Loren posted, she will also eat any still born.

[Lori P]

Sorry Kyle. Good luck with the next litter. I have a new mom who did the same thing, but now she just had her second litter and so far so good!!!

[infernalis]

We have a newer mom that ate all but 2 of her first litter, raised those 2 wonderfully, and the 2 are helping her with her newest litter of 8.

If you catch them when they first brain the pink, the warm carcass is readily accepted by the snakes.

I caught one psycho mouse that killed off like 8 pinks and 2 small hoppers, fed the one with issues to the python, and the dead baby mice to the garters.

It gets better Kyle, but at the same time, these things will happen.

[Hornets23]

Didnt seem to take very long to get your first litter eh kyle?

[crzy_kevo]

so good news i finally cracked the Gf and she is letting me raise feeder mice on one condition that she can't see them any1 have suggestions on what kind of housing i should use that wouldn't be transparent yet will still not allow the mice to escape by chewing through it

[infernalis]

Kev - I have been using totes for the whole time.

Get one with all smooth sides.

In order for them to chew through it, they need a starting point.

[crzy_kevo]

actuually thinking about it remember my temporart snake enclosure made out of a couple of buckets well we go through a few of those buckets every week at work do you think it would be a suitable home for the mice? and if so what can i do for ventilation would a couple of inch wide slits near the top work well covered with screen?

[infernalis]

Not a lot of room to move around in a bucket, and any attempt at cutting and fusing two together will give the mice a nice easy point to start chewing...

I'll go take a picture, I used clear so I can see what is going on.

They are all under $10 to buy, Surely cannot be much more in the great white north.

[crzy_kevo]

well i was no planning on putting two together this time but i agree a 5 gallon bucket isn't that big and they wouldnt have much room to move around

[infernalis]

Here is a few of my setups. Drill the vents close to the top, any holes drilled down low will give the mice a starting point to chew out from.

http://www.danceswithreptiles.com/1/mice.jpg

The second photo is for you to think over, can you kill these and be OK with it?

http://www.danceswithreptiles.com/1/fuzzy.jpg

[crzy_kevo]

thank you for the view of the set up wayne and i dont mean to sound heartless but i have the ability to turn off my emotions when it comes to things like this even though i love all animals yes i would be able to kill them and be ok with it knowing that they are going to a good cause of feeding my precious snakes

[Aundrea]

The second photo is for you to think over, can you kill these and be OK with it?

http://www.danceswithreptiles.com/1/fuzzy.jpg[/quote]

AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW They are SOOO CUTE!!!!!!

NOPE NOPE NOPE I couldnt kill them at all. I have a BIG heart and I would cry if I did. Heck even the pre killed I feel so bad but that is alot better then feeding them LIVE or me killing them :D

[infernalis]

Saved big money today...

I was out and about, passed a feed store, thought what the heck, so I go in and ask for "mouse food"

Lady comes out with a big burlap sack like horse feed comes in, and says that will be $12:D

Thats the same price as 3 small bags at a department store, and a LOT more feed.

Got it home, open it up, yep Sunflower seeds, corn, pellets, all the good stuff mice love. Label reads "premium hamster mix" good stuff!

Cut my mice costs in half:cool:

[GartersRock]

I think the "turning off emotions" is a really good way to put it...

[drache]

Saved big money today...

I was out and about, passed a feed store, thought what the heck, so I go in and ask for "mouse food"

Lady comes out with a big burlap sack like horse feed comes in, and says that will be $12:D

Thats the same price as 3 small bags at a department store, and a LOT more feed.

Got it home, open it up, yep Sunflower seeds, corn, pellets, all the good stuff mice love. Label reads "premium hamster mix" good stuff!

Cut my mice costs in half:cool:

you cannot even imagine how envious I am about you having access to a feed store
whenever I ask around whether anyone knows about a feed store in Brooklyn, I get blank looks
if I could just get a bag of chicken mash . . .

[infernalis]

you cannot even imagine how envious I am about you having access to a feed store
whenever I ask around whether anyone knows about a feed store in Brooklyn, I get blank looks
if I could just get a bag of chicken mash . . .


If you are going to make it out in July, I can have all the chicken mash you want, waiting for you.

This is ruralville farmin' country.

I envy your access to all those shops and stores, tasty ethnic goodies like guarana, Latin, Greek and other foods that my clampett neighbors have never tried...

[Lori P]

That's it-- we'll swap, Rhea. I'll send you chicken feed by the ton and you send me all those only-in-NYC things I never get!!

Seriously, if you want some chicken mash, I'd be happy to send you small bags as you need. Just let me know. :-)

[drache]

If you are going to make it out in July, I can have all the chicken mash you want, waiting for you.

This is ruralville farmin' country.

I envy your access to all those shops and stores, tasty ethnic goodies like guarana, Latin, Greek and other foods that my clampett neighbors have never tried...
it's a deal
come down any time and visit, too
food's pretty good around here - and some other fun stuff
I bet I'd have more fun with you guys visiting than with what's left of my family

[Loren]

A few of the colors I have been breeding for a few years now. All started with a couple multi colored feeders that were given to me, which I bred into my albino colony.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/white_mouse.JPG
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/grey_mouse.JPG
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/dark_mouse.JPG
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/my_mice.JPG

[jitami]

Cute Loren! I like the top one in the last picture :)

[Loren]

yep, those are the hardest to kill.

[jitami]

The little silver/white agouti looking guy in the second pic would be my next fave :) As pinkies I could off them, but as adults? I dunno...

[GartersRock]

Interesting color/fur/ear combos in rats and mice raised as feeders make it super fun! But THAT much harder to feed off....

[Loren]

yeah, they would make neat pets, but that would break the rules for me, and make it too hard..

[Hornets23]

I like the black and white ones...i occasionally see them in pet stores and take them home. It happened a few times. I have about 12 now.

[jitami]

It happened a few times. I have about 12 now.

Haha and I sincerely thought about asking Loren to set aside my two faves as pets for me... 12, huh? Nevermind... lol

[Loren]

I'm sure they can be addictive like everything else. And they breed like, well... mice. :)

[Snake lover 3-25]

awwww lol i could never feed those off lol MUCH too cute:D

[anji1971]

We had a pet mouse that gave birth years ago. One of the babies grew up to be a gorgeous perfect silver. That was the one I made sure we didn't give away to anyone!

[Aundrea]

sooooooooooooooooo CUTE!!!!!! Love the pics.. Nope i just couldnt do it!! I would cry like a baby LOL... Thats why I buy prekilled and heck I feel bad STILL feeding them to Swiper:eek:

[Hornets23]

Haha and I sincerely thought about asking Loren to set aside my two faves as pets for me... 12, huh? Nevermind... lol


Haha..its not soooo bad. I've been careful to only take home the ones that were girls...except once when I positively couldnt resist taking home a couple of long haired males. So now I have one of those huge fun type cages full of females and another cage for the males. Honestly two mice or ten doesnt make a terribly huge difference as long as they are females. The males tend to fight.

[Loren]

and males stink a lot more...

[Loren]

I grew up on a dairy, so I am well accustomed to treating an animal well for several years, then killing it and eating it. Cycle of life.

[GartersRock]

I honestly think the males just smell like cheerios.. LOL!!

[infernalis]

Do they stay crunchy in milk??

[anji1971]

Pinky-O's.
Yum.:rolleyes: