Social behaviour in snakes

[adamanteus]

Guys, as many of you know, I've always believed that snakes aren't social... they are just found hanging around together because it happens to be a good spot for whatever reason (ideal temp, availability of food etc). I may have to change my views.
The following was written by a British Herpetologist of some standing, he has worked with British reptiles all his life... and he's pretty old now!)

I am getting toward the end of writing my adder book. The task has brought back quite few memories as I have sorted throught my records and data. Here is something interesting. In 1988 I started doing photographic IDs for both adders and smooth snakes; this in addition to ventral scale clipping. Each season I would photo ID between 4-6 litters of adders. In 1989 I Photo IDd two litters from *******. From this litter I have since recorded two females plus one male. Now, the interesting bit. These two females (sisters) are always together. They both bred for their first time at 7yrs. Since then, their breeding cycles have differed. But, even during the non-breeding years of one they are still seen together. If they both have a non-breeding year I have found them together in the summer grounds.
I cannot really explain this 'bond' but maybe it happens more often than we know. Communal behaviour of gravid females is not unusual.
Oh yes, mom is still alive, well in 2004.
I last saw the sisters in 2004, the photo was taken with my film camera in 2001.



http://www.herpetofauna.co.uk/forum/uploads/armata/2008-06-14_121444_Adder_Sisters.jpg

__________________
TP

I have spoken to him since he posted this, to get confirmation, and he has seen these two sisters together every single year during that 15 year period! Serious food for thought, I'm sure you'll agree.:)

[Sid]

Very interesting to say the least, James. Thanks for sharing this with us.

[infernalis]

I have been observing social behaviour in captivity for a couple years.

Its difficult to determine if there is any bonding in captivity, as the animals have no choice but to live together, Are they just tolerant of one another?? in the wild, that is an amazing find!!!

And they will MARK TERRITORY with poo, more on that later.

Captivity and wild are apples and oranges apart, yet still fascinating to observe.

There are 3 hides in one tank, 3 dekay browns and 2 garters. There was a red belly snake, I let her go, she was not liking the captivity, and it showed. I felt it would be cruel to force this snake to stay my pet, when it spent more time turning down food, freaking out in the tank and just seemed non content.

The 2 garters almost always chose to hide together, as the 3 dekays do the same. Sometimes I will find one garter coiled up with a dekay in the same spiral.

They MUST be taken out and fed one at a time, or they will brawl violently over one single food item, even if there is enough food to feed an army, they all decide they want the same one!!

A snake that is otherwise unwilling to eat, will sometimes immediately scoot right over and grab onto the food that is already in another snakes mouth, while ignoring all the other food in the cage.

Can they identify siblings? Obviously so. Can they identify their own kids, I wholeheartedly believe so, Xena's litter was kept in quarantine as they grew, as an experiment, when they were a bit bigger, I placed a few babies in the tank. Shortly I observed Xena coiled up with her babies, and no other snake in that cage.

AFTER WEEKS of separation, removed a neonate, and returned with a juvenile. And she apparently recognized the babies?

Regards,
Wayne

http://www.reformedsniper.net/snakes/images/hpim0365.jpg

[jeanette]

Ive always believed that its possible for snakes to bond with each other just as i believe its possible for them to ......... maybe "bond" with is the wrong word......... but enjoy a relationship with people.
Im really glad to see this is being investigated by a renowned herpetologist and i hope this will give other herpetologists a push in that direction to investigate this phenomenon further. There is so little known about snake relationships and behaviour, and untill now the general belief is that snakes are solitary creatures and prefer their own company at all times., But infact if they happen to rely on a community at odd times such as winter isnt it a possibility that they may infact form bonds that last their whole lives?
Garters are greatly known to winter together, and Austin stevens actually had an episode in one of his television series for Animal Planet where he ended up inside a mountain documenting Rattlesnakes coming together to hibernate. I do think that if snakes are so solitary then it would stand to reason that they wouldnt come together just to hibernate. Maybe the reason they are not often seen together during the rest of the year is so they can preserve food sources and not eradicate it and therefore starve themselves, not because they dislike their own kind

[Garter_Gertie]

Of course I can't quote my source as I didn't note it but I did read within the last day or two, on line, garters are social beings. If memory serves me correctly it was the author's belief garter's hiberariums (is that rite?) are cultural [my word] things vs. say one snake finding a good place to snooze the winter away and then passing the word on to hundreds and hundreds of other garters.

Eagles and Phoebes return to the same nest (or nests) year after year. Why can't it be the same for snakes? It would seem to me with snakes having even a smaller brain than a bird what's hard-wired into the reptilian reptilian brain would be greater as there's less room for the important stuff.

Now, sisters following each other around for 15 years is totally remarkable. One should stop and think, "How does this behavior ensure survival of the species?" Well, I'm - for once - at a loss for words. There's no benefit to species survival to two female snakes hanging out together.

Fascinating reading and pondering. Great post.

[infernalis]

Garters also breed in massive writhing gobs in the wild.

I watched a very excellent special on this, and will be sure to relate fully soon:)

Had to toss that in....

Wayne

[Garter_Gertie]

I do think that if snakes are so solitary then it would stand to reason that they wouldnt come together just to hibernate. Maybe the reason they are not often seen together during the rest of the year is so they can preserve food sources and not eradicate it and therefore starve themselves, not because they dislike their own kind

Excellent, excellent thought. PARTICULARLY regarding spreading out to preserve food sources, etc. I think that's really good. Wonderful thought and makes much sense to me.

I don't think bond is too strong a word. Well, oookkkkaaayyy. Maybe just a teeny bit to strong. Certainly Winnie knows me over all others and I believe she's got my walk down pat as she's always surfacing as I near her tank. She watches for me and while I can run my finger along the glass or put my finger near her mouth for a garter kiss, if anyone else does these things she's scrambling around like a nut-case to hide.

Winnie is social with me. But she is a snake and when she's had enough she lets me know in very strong garter language it's time to be put back. She will never - by any stretch of the word - become tame. But she does socialize and recognize me and is not fearful.

[adamanteus]

Gertie, the reason Garters use communal hibernation dens is because of the small numbers of suitable sites, this is not a social act and is quite well documented. These dens are often used by different species.

For example, Black Rat Snakes are sometimes referred to as Pilot Snakes or Rattlesnake Pilots because of the erroneous belief that they guide Rattlesnakes to winter dens. Dens in which Rattlers and Rat Snakes over-winter together. Mass hibernation is simply a matter of need... there are very few dens for very many snakes. Of course snakes have no means of 'passing the word' to hundreds of other snakes scattered across a wide area.

[adamanteus]

I think it's a HUGE (and wholely mistaken) jump, from what has been observed between these two sibling Adders, to snakes bonding with people.
Snakes don't bond with us, they learn to tolerate us.

[jeanette]

Gertie, the reason Garters use communal hibernation dens is because of the small numbers of suitable sites, this is not a social act and is quite well documented. These dens are often used by different species.

For example, Black Rat Snakes are sometimes referred to as Pilot Snakes or Rattlesnake Pilots because of the erroneous belief that they guide Rattlesnakes to winter dens. Dens in which Rattlers and Rat Snakes over-winter together. Mass hibernation is simply a matter of need... there are very few dens for very many snakes. Of course snakes have no means of 'passing the word' to hundreds of other snakes scattered across a wide area.
If this is so then why did the rattle snakes documented by Austin stevens return every year to the same place? this doesnt sound like a "lack of good places to hibernate" It sounds like strict social behaviour, "coming home" if you will excuse the term. The cave he crawled inside to see the rattle snakes was simply crawling with them. he was aware that if he made one wrong move he was toast. the snakes were crawling over him there was no floor to be seen, i think he guessed at the number being in the hundreds, and he did say that even young snakes came to this cave even though they had never had their first winter. Maybe that isnt a communication thing but its definately a "something"

[adamanteus]

If this is so then why did the rattle snakes documented by Austin stevens return every year to the same place?
Because it's a good place, and there is nowhere else to go.;)

[Garter_Gertie]

Given Merriam-Webster's definition, you're correct James. My kids will not bond with me as I will them.

However, I'm a romaticist and this zebra ain't gonna change her stripes. We'll have to agree to disagree, James.

[Garter_Gertie]

Yeah, what she said! :D

[adamanteus]

I really can't argue on this any more. It's such utter nonsense that I'm actually embarrassed to be discussing it!
But for the more serious minded amongst us, I think the Adder sibling thing is quite interesting.

[Snake lover 3-25]

wait!!!! Meadow had a litter 2 years ago.... i kept one of the babies and now i have found a second of her 18 babies.. (i know because of the distinct markings and the small number of snakes in the area....) so anyway.... now i have reunited her with her baby after 2 yrs and the second they saw each other they started to act very abnormal... almost like mating but they are both females... so today i put them together and they wont separate!!!!! they fallow each other everywhere and are currently under one hide that is much to small for even one snake.... there are hides all over the cage that are much bigger... even one right next to where they are now... but they chose to be together!!!!! after 2 yrs!!!! i have put my female with dozens of other snakes over the years and they are never together... but she def. knows that this is her child!!!!!:D:D:D:D

[Garter_Gertie]

Support for the adder sisters. Very VERY cool!

[Snake lover 3-25]

Yeah, what she said! :D

who do you mean???:D

[Garter_Gertie]

Snake lover, I was echoing what Jeanette said. It was a "You go, girlfriend" kind thing. A "You're right on," kinda thing. Know what I mean?

[Snake lover 3-25]

o i get it.... for a sec there i thought you were talking to yourself!!!!!!!:D:D:D:D

[Stefan-A]

If this is so then why did the rattle snakes documented by Austin stevens return every year to the same place? this doesnt sound like a "lack of good places to hibernate"
Actually, that's exactly what it sounds like. You also need to consider that since most hibernating species mate immediately after hibernation and usually in close proximity to the den, using the same den as your close relatives increases the possibility of inbreeding, which over time reduces the genetic diversity and increases the risk of the whole population being knocked out. Something has to make it worth the risk, but sentimentality offers no real payback. A good den, on the other hand, does, since it increases the chances of survival.

And let it be known that Austin Stevens is one of the most annoying people walking the Earth.

[Garter_Gertie]

Nah. I don't buy it. Don't know why; can't say why. But I don't buy the "since most hibernating species mate immediately after hibernation and usually in close proximity to it, using the same den as your close relatives increases the possibility of inbreeding, which over time reduces the genetic diversity and increases the risk of the whole population being knocked out."

There's got to be some other factor. Else you can toss out the entire survivial of the fittest theory.

[Stefan-A]

And how do you figure that?

[KITKAT]

Nah. I don't buy it. Don't know why; can't say why. But I don't buy the "since most hibernating species mate immediately after hibernation and usually in close proximity to it, using the same den as your close relatives increases the possibility of inbreeding, which over time reduces the genetic diversity and increases the risk of the whole population being knocked out."

There's got to be some other factor. Else you can toss out the entire survivial of the fittest theory.

How do we know snakes hibernate with their relatives? Haven't you guys ever heard the story about the snake baby that went to his mother in concern because another snake came along and wanted to "hiss in his pit"?:D:D:D

[larean]

I think I agree with James, snakes hibernating together isn't necessarily social behavior, you might as well call a group of people sheltering from the rain social just because they are sheltering together (of course, humans are social, but you get the point).
Back to the adders, wouldn't 'hanging out' together give more security against predators? Although that still wouldn't explain why they only come together in summer; maybe because there is too little food to share in winter.

Just a thought, correct me if I'm talking gibberish:)

[larean]

Another thing: I have experienced 'meetings' between my 6 year old female parietalis and my baby parietalis (6 months), also female, and while the old female didn't pay any attention, the small one first seemed amazed at the other ones body and then started climbing on top of the older female and kept trying to ride along.

This could be social behavior, but I think it is also, at least for a good part, just curiosity. Every snake I own will come looking at the sight of a finger moving, and as long as it doesn't look like a threat, will keep looking at it and try to find out what it is/does.

Might this be an explanation?

[drache]

two things:
- there is also the fact that snakes brumating in large dens in great quantities, rather than in little holes by themselves, has a lot to do with the fact that large body masses can thermoregulate a bit better
and I believe I read in some smart book that they change location in the den, just like the penguin males (walk of the penguins)
- James - there is very little "proof" either way, so assuming there are no social relations is just as erroneous as assuming there is - we simply don't know
also - social behavior in humans is just a survival mechanism as well
your cell phones and clothes are just part of your mating accessories
the size of your house and your car designed to attract mates
the people at the bus stop may not be related, but to the astute anthropologist, all sorts of social behavior will be observable, some of it between relatives traveling together, some of it even mating behavior

[infernalis]

Now there is some thought.

Concerning the Adders, and identifying snakes visually, in time it just happens. staring at the same snakes observing them constantly will "etch" the "fingerprint" into your memory. Every little mark, anomaly and detail that will identify the subject will stand right out.

each and every animal has color markings as unique as a human fingerprint, so proving that these sisters are in fact the same snakes is easy to do.

However primitive the mechanisms are, there is sound proof that at least basic communications take place, the use of smells (pheromones) is well documented and territorial marking (each animals scent is as unique as it's colors, scent can be used to ID each other) is starting to gain merit.

Excellent study...

Regards,
Wayne

[Snake lover 3-25]

i left meadow in with sooty last night and they were still together... riding on top of each other but i had to take meadow out and put her back in her own cage and just as the last of her tail was coming up sooty began to chase after her and i put meadow back in her cage, she stuck her head where baby was hiding as if to check on him then began to try and get out, which she never does and she was def. searching for sooty. meanwhile sooty was searching the cage for meadow, realizing she was gone she started to try and get out as well!!!!!:eek::eek::eek:



I have experienced 'meetings' between my 6 year old female parietalis and my baby parietalis (6 months), also female, and while the old female didn't pay any attention, the small one first seemed amazed at the other ones body and then started climbing on top of the older female and kept trying to ride along.

[Stefan-A]

How do you know what they were doing?

[Snake lover 3-25]

because they were and still are acting strange they have never acted this way b4... and sooty has been placed with a second snake that she paid no interest in whatsoever and meadow has been with many dif. snakes and has had no reaction even close to this one....

[Stefan-A]

So you don't think there might be a less fantastic explanation for their behavior?

[Snake lover 3-25]

not really... meadow has been exposed to every situation possible and has never acted like this.... she's been temp. housed with browns, garters, corns, and even baby milks... and has just ignored them but the second she was put in sootys cage she began to look for her... i don't know how you would explain it otherwise....:confused:

[Zephyr]

Well, we'll see what my science fair results tell us. ^^

[jeanette]

Actually, that's exactly what it sounds like. You also need to consider that since most hibernating species mate immediately after hibernation and usually in close proximity to the den, using the same den as your close relatives increases the possibility of inbreeding, which over time reduces the genetic diversity and increases the risk of the whole population being knocked out. Something has to make it worth the risk, but sentimentality offers no real payback. A good den, on the other hand, does, since it increases the chances of survival.

And let it be known that Austin Stevens is one of the most annoying people walking the Earth.
lol just catching up........................Austim stevens is GOD!!!!! i loooove him and hes been into snakes since the guy was 12 years old, when he was in the african army he was dubbed the snakeman because of his unusual way with snakes, that ability gave Stevens his first job with snakes at a zoo even though he didnt have the qualifications back then for the job. he did however qualify within the following 6 years of taking that job. there is an awful lot that isnt widely known about the man. and one thing is for sure he is dedicated in his love of reptiles.

[adamanteus]

I know he picks snakes up by the tail-tip, which anyone who knows snakes will tell you is SO wrong. He is a poor mimic of Steve Irwin. A floppy haired fop... but a rather good photographer.:D
He's quite entertaining on the telly, but he's not taken at all seriously by the professionals.

[jeanette]

I know he picks snakes up by the tail-tip, which anyone who knows snakes will tell you is SO wrong. He is a poor mimic of Steve Irwin. A floppy haired fop... but a rather good photographer.:D
He's quite entertaining on the telly, but he's not taken at all seriously by the professionals.
he has immense respect for snakes and is far more qualified with snakes and reptiles than pretty much anyone on here. there isnt much he doesnt know about snakes. i dont think anyone can knock him for the eduction he has tried to give those who live in poorer countries about preserving their species. He handles venomous snakes in the same way i have seen many of hots keepers handle them. infact i saw a programme with steve irwin where he handled a rattler in exactly the same way. steve irwin was a great person but he didnt have austin stevens experience with snakes. steve irwin was definately the man when it came to crocs though :)

[adamanteus]

he has immense respect for snakes and is far more qualified with snakes and reptiles than pretty much anyone on here. :)

Obviously, you have no idea who some of the people are on this forum!!!!:D:D

[jeanette]

Obviously, you have no idea who some of the people are on this forum!!!!:D:D
note that i said pretty much......................
unless we all have the degrees in herpetology and zoology and the decades of experience.............which would stand to reason that the list of possibilities would be pretty small :)

And im sure we dont have to come across as argumentative :)

[Zephyr]

I know he picks snakes up by the tail-tip, which anyone who knows snakes will tell you is SO wrong. He is a poor mimic of Steve Irwin. A floppy haired fop... but a rather good photographer.:D
He's quite entertaining on the telly, but he's not taken at all seriously by the professionals.Amen brotha. XD

[Zephyr]

unless we all have the degrees in herpetology and zoology and the decades of experience
*Points to James.* :P

[Stefan-A]

note that i said pretty much......................
unless we all have the degrees in herpetology and zoology and the decades of experience.............which would stand to reason that the list of possibilities would be pretty small :)
Note that I said "annoying", not "incompetent". ;) However, people can do things wrong for decades, just because nobody has been around to tell them how to do things properly.

And I dislike his show even more. Pretends to run around in the wilderness alone while his two or three camera men are filming from angles that suggest they've climbed up that tree or mountain or mesa or whatever long before he even got there. It may be entertaining for some, but it annoys the hell out of me. :rolleyes:

ps. into herps since age 4 and autodidact on a number of subjects. :D I think that makes 2.5 decades.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

This thread has slightly changed topics. I don't want to or like to knock naturalists down, but it should be known that a lot of the herp entertainer/photographer/blah-blah-blahs are not all bonafide scientists or zoologists. Steve Irwin was the only one I ever saw scale a tree after a mamba (you should not do this!). That's passion. Sure he probably knew more about crocs. The "Wow! A snake!" fake discoveries set up by camera crews are a dime a dozen, and I know Austin Stevens and Jeff Corwin are no different. Remember, we are talking about television ratings. I can't count how many false statements about wildlife have been made on Animal Planet!

As for the original "argument" about social behavior in snakes, I find the adder story very interesting and worthy of more research. HOWEVER, I am absolutely disappointed when humans jump to conclusions about the social behavior of their pets or animals in general. The key problem is "anthropomorphization" - pet owners are always exclaiming how their pets are bonding with them. I can understand the endotherms, and perhaps even such squamates as beardies (which are very social), but social behavior in snakes is too new a possible reality to make such assumptions. Perhaps in some species there might be an awakening of sorts (i.e. the adders... or king cobras, who are the only known species to actually build a nest and protect the eggs.) I have been keeping snakes for years, and I have put different snakes (of the same species!) together and observed varied activities (or none) between different sexes and same sexes. There is no current proof that the proposed social behavior among snakes is exactly that. And if the behavior is in captivity, forget it! They are in an enclosed environment.

And who is putting different species together? And where did they learn herpetocultural ethics? If you do not have room to house your pets appropriately, wait on the acquisitions.

I'll stop now. I don't need emoticons to show how I feel. Advice from a garter forum should be based on information that is scientifically sound. Assumptions do not create truth.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Oh yeah... I feel the instinctive (often orgiastic) mating drives in garters are just that. A larger female being chased by an onslaught of smaller hormone-driven males is just a big competition. Because there are a whole bunch of garters trying to get some does not mean they are "bonding". I see a whole bunch of males trying to get the girl (like sperm the egg!).

Communal hibernation is a survival mechanism in many snakes. The danger of sharing your den with another snake that might even eat you is over-ridden by an instinct to survive the cold. If we want to assume, it would be safer (never safer! LOL!) to believe that nature has her seasonal periods where animals just "obey the weather" - "time to stop eating, and sleep for the winter". (I'm still laughing)

As for inbreeding and the "survival of the fittest" - There may have been a time when hibernation dens were more prevalent, numerous? The fact is, yes there is a risk of in-breeding among isolated hibernacula. Nature doesn't care! Survival of the fittest is indeed the law! Please note that animals go extinct naturally all the time. If a healthy species becomes isolated and is then subject to inbreeding and weakens and dies out, that's just tough luck! (I don't subscribe to luck either - just a word) Right now there are whiptail lizard species who are parthenogenetic (no males; females clone themselves!)... These lizards exist... Once upon a time there used to be males.... Cloned offspring? Genetic integrity? Unless evolution has a trick up its sleeve, these species are doomed to extinction!
Happens all the time! That's just an example. In the case of garters, as long as a substantial part of the population isn't in-breeding, the species still has some time on the planet. Yee-haaaa!

[Zephyr]

But they're has to be some reason why I've found snakes "Snuggling" together under boards and whatnot! In fact, it's been garter-garter, female-female, and even dekay's-garter! I'd bet they see each other as a way to preserve body heat and possibly as the indicator of a food source.

[Stefan-A]

I think it may be as much about what they don't see each other as: Threats.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

...And that hidey-place under the boards was a good one! I often go field-herping, and I will cover miles of terrain, only to find a group of snakes in one area only - a place where there was cover. It sheer opportunism, and if they are not a threat to one another, as mentioned, no problem... Doesn't mean they are getting friendly!

[infernalis]

Steven,
Thank you, I could not agree more. I have tried for as long as I can, but oh well, at the risk of upsetting some of our members here goes..

lets just say that "croc diaries" is your favorite show, every time it is on, you sit on the sofa with "fluffy" the garter snake, In time "fluffy" associates this with sitting in your warm hand while you watch the show.

Now as much as some may want to believe that "fluffy" likes "croc diaries" and you may want to log right on to your favorite forum and tell the world,
"Croc diaries is fluffy's favorite show" you would only be attaching a HUMAN response to an observation that seems to have no other explanation.

Folks we are only scratching the surface here, if socialization was really "that common" then the study performed on those adder sisters would be no big deal, however since this is so rare to see, it IS a big deal.

Great brain food here, my cranium desires more:D

[adamanteus]

Unfortunately, Wayne, no study on the possibility of social behaviour between these two siblings is being undertaken. The observation that these two apparently 'live together' is just that, a chance observation.
The study is actually dealing solely with population status and longevity in the species.

[Zephyr]

...And that hidey-place under the boards was a good one! I often go field-herping, and I will cover miles of terrain, only to find a group of snakes in one area only - a place where there was cover. It sheer opportunism, and if they are not a threat to one another, as mentioned, no problem... Doesn't mean they are getting friendly!But in the environment I observed, there was plenty of ground cover, most of which was symmetrical; such as a series of boards lying in a row parallel to eachother. There were always snakes together under ONE board as opposed to the others. Now before everyone starts going all "MICRO ECOS" on me, I still think that garters prefer to be together, or at least with other snakes. Maybe it's not a liking for it but it's certainly more than a tolerance.

[adamanteus]

There is certainly a lot of 'micro ecos' about it though, Kyle... perhaps a couple of the boards are too tight to the ground, perhaps there's an ants nest under a couple of them, maybe this one gets more sunshine than that one etc........
However, after reading about the Adder sisters and speaking to the guy who recorded this, I think there must be something else going on..... I don't know what.

[Zephyr]

The most basic thoughts I can put on it is "Hey, there's another snake here. That means there's food around!"
Although I'm hoping further research can prove. "Hey, another snake! Let's mingle to reduce the chances of assertion and conserve our species through shared food intake collaboratively!" XD

[adamanteus]

'There's another snake'... okay. But what about 'There's my sister' year after year after.....
If I had heard this from (almost) any other source, I would have said "Bull".

[drache]

while I have no idea what this implicates exactly, I have observed that some snakes can tell the difference between people and consistently prefer one person over another
I also see that sometimes when I have several garters co-housing, a couple of them will be together all the time, whereas other times, even if there are only two in a cage, they may not spend any time together
even insects have social behaviour
and ascribing social behaviour and even preferences and attachments to snakes is not necessarily anthropomorphism
when you endow certain social behaviours with human emotions and motivations - that's another matter

[Zephyr]

when you endow certain social behaviours with human emotions and motivations - that's another matterCouldn'tve said it better myself. :P
There's a lot of work that needs to be done in this aspect of the hobby... But I think that observations say a bit; we've established that they don't dislike each other's presence.

[Stefan-A]

I doubt they even know the concept of "snake". I think they just don't register it as a threat.

In the long run, it doesn't pay to assume that there's food around just because there's another snake. It usually works the other way: If there's food around, there are probably snakes as well. But two snakes hanging around would starve to death if they both were making the same assumption.

[adamanteus]

I doubt they even know the concept of "snake". I think they just don't register it as a threat.

I'm sure they must recognise their species, they may be indifferent to this knowledge, but I'm sure they know their own kind.

[Zephyr]

Maybe there's a pheromone they emit to "page" other garters on the presence of food... Like I stated, collaborative effort to keep the species alive. This is entirely possible. When I was at the international science fair I talked to a girl who did her project on collaborative digestion of food particles by fruit fly larvae. Turns out, they all spit on the food so everyone can eat it.

[adamanteus]

Turns out, they all spit on the food so everyone can eat it.

We do that in my house... doesn't everybody? No wonder we never get dinner guests!

[Stefan-A]

I'm sure they must recognise their species, they may be indifferent to this knowledge, but I'm sure they know their own kind.
Of course, I meant that a snake would care about as much about an animal that doesn't register as a threat, food or potential mate being present, as about a twig or a rock.

[adamanteus]

We're agreed on that. So, what's your take on these two Adders? They are definitely siblings, the author of my original quote marks his subjects by 'ventral scale clipping' in a unique pattern.. so he knows his individuals. Why do you think these two sisters might spend their time together over so many years? I'll be honest, it's thrown me, and made me want to follow these two (if only I could).

[infernalis]

Eyowwww turn away for ten seconds, and wham ten posts.....

James, too bad, I wish someone with credentials like that would study and follow those adder sisters around.

My thoughts about communal hides, Got me thinking, I have placed several sheets of plywood and some old road signs on the ground all over out near the meadow. I check these hides every day.

One sign way out back almost always had some kind of tiny little snake, a red belly, or DK sometimes a sub adult eastern. Then suddenly no snakes?? after about 5 days of no snakes, I discovered a colony of ants had begun taking over, Sweep off all the ants, move the sign to another location, and next morning SNAKE.

The hides that have the most slugs under them, also have the most DK and red bellies under them, coincidence?

Sometimes I will lift up a sheet of plywood, and there has been instance of finding Eastern Milks and Eastern Garters "together" Most likely neither felt any threat from the other, rather than any desire to be together.

When Garters breed in the wild, the survival of the fittest rule applies, sorry Gertie, but if big brother is the one that "makes it happen" then what that amounts to is that he wiggled the most in the breeding ball. (a wild snake orgy)

Dynamics of wild garter breeding should be it's own thread, so I won't even start rambling about that.

[Stefan-A]

Maybe there's a pheromone they emit to "page" other garters on the presence of food... Like I stated, collaborative effort to keep the species alive. This is entirely possible. When I was at the international science fair I talked to a girl who did her project on collaborative digestion of food particles by fruit fly larvae. Turns out, they all spit on the food so everyone can eat it.
I don't have the opportunity to verify that that's why the larvae are doing it, but that would be kin selection. (Kin selection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kin_selection)) Doesn't really apply to this case, since you can't assume that the snakes they're with are closely related or even of the same species.

[Zephyr]

Dynamics of wild garter breeding should be it's own thread, so I won't even start rambling about that.*Cough.* Maybe some one should make it then. :P

[Zephyr]

I don't have the opportunity to verify that that's why the larvae are doing it, but that would be kin selection. (Kin selection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kin_selection)) Doesn't really apply to this case, since you can't assume that the snakes they're with are closely related or even of the same species.Might apply to my area... I've observed signs of a genetic bottleneck that may have occurred around 40 or 50 years ago. That would mean that most of the garters would be somewhat related... Oi, this makes my head hurt. x.x

[infernalis]

*Cough.* Maybe some one should make it then. :P


Dont want to hog it all up:D

[Stefan-A]

We're agreed on that. So, what's your take on these two Adders? They are definitely siblings, the author of my original quote marks his subjects by 'ventral scale clipping' in a unique pattern.. so he knows his individuals. Why do you think these two sisters might spend their time together over so many years? I'll be honest, it's thrown me, and made me want to follow these two (if only I could).
I have absolutely no idea, but I would like to know.

[adamanteus]

Wayne.. go hog it!:D

[Garter_Gertie]

I think this is just a wonderful thread! Keep thinking you guys!

[adamanteus]

I wonder if a similar thing could be observed in wild Garters, if anybody was bothering to look closely enough.
I wonder, could we....?

[Stefan-A]

I wonder if a similar thing could be observed in wild Garters, if anybody was bothering to look closely enough.
I wonder, could we....?
It's not impossible, but they are some of the best studied species of snake. How would you set up an experiment like that?

[adamanteus]

They are very well studied, but have 'they' ever looked for this kind of thing? It could be right under your nose, but if you're not looking for it...
I don't know. We'd need a 'field man' with a good local population.... feeding information back to us.. for years!

[drache]

We're agreed on that. So, what's your take on these two Adders? They are definitely siblings, the author of my original quote marks his subjects by 'ventral scale clipping' in a unique pattern.. so he knows his individuals. Why do you think these two sisters might spend their time together over so many years? I'll be honest, it's thrown me, and made me want to follow these two (if only I could).

probably recognition of the familiar
I wouldn't necessarily assume that it's because they're sisters
or if it is, perhaps it's just that they ended up with the same scent
is it really so outlandish?

[adamanteus]

is it really so outlandish?

Actually, Rhea, yes it is... it's unprecedented. This behaviour in snakes has (to my knowledge) never been recorded before.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

The adder behavior has me stumped as well.

Wayne, I do agree with your idea in the "communal choice" in retreats. It is unintentional in regards to one another, and it is usually environmental conditions or the presence of prey which makes most snakes "flock" together. They don't tell everyone else "Hey, there's fat worms and salamanders under that board; come on! Let's go there!" Most snakes can just sense where the good spots are and "Whalah! Presto!" It looks like a party!

[Garter_Gertie]

"Sisters, sisters
There were never such devoted sisters,
Never had to have a chaperone, No sir,
I'm here to keep my eye on her
Caring, sharing
Every little thing that we are wearing
When a certain gentleman arrived from Rome
She wore the dress, and I stayed home
All kinds of weather, we stick together
The same in the rain and sun
Two different faces, but in tight places
We think and we act as one
Those who have seen us *
Know that not a thing could come between us
Many men have tried to split us up, but no one can
Lord help the mister who comes between me and my sister
And Lord help the sister, who comes between me and my man"

They just make me think of that song. :D

[infernalis]

They are very well studied, but have 'they' ever looked for this kind of thing? It could be right under your nose, but if you're not looking for it...
I don't know. We'd need a 'field man' with a good local population.... feeding information back to us.. for years!

Guys how about an old farm boy who has been molesting the daylights out of his local population since if I remember correctly 1972? may I volunteer?

What is mind boggling is all the while, I never took any academic look nor approach, I'm looking through different eyes now.

The first time my kids came whining that the frog eggs were drying out, daddy to the rescue takes a large irrigation pump out back and fills er back up. so the kids are happy, mom and dad feel good, we did a deed.

The side effect is plentiful food source for the local garter population, so of course they hang out a lot around here, only encouraging this family of lunatics to keep on doing it.

We have a protected waterway running through the property, Protected as in drinkable quality, I drink from it all the time, flowing spring water.

Next time I have the bulldozer, I really want to dig a nice pond and declare it off limits. The newts, frogs and other amphibians will congregate.

Oh and I almost forgot, Before I die, it is a long time goal of mine to construct a hibernaculum with IR cameras wired to a PC so we could peek in anytime we wanted to without interference. (In the wild)

http://www.reformedsniper.net/1/garters_031.jpg

[drache]

Actually, Rhea, yes it is... it's unprecedented. This behaviour in snakes has (to my knowledge) never been recorded before.
okay, I used the wrong word
something not previously known about is certainly a bit outlandish
I suppose I meant to say, that it doesn't seem unthinkable to me
just because nobody has ever noted this kind of behaviour, doesn't mean it hasn't happened before
I really would be careful to credit the sciences with an all-seeing eye
"facts" have been revised many times over the centuries, mostly because some overlooked or rejected oddity was finally taken into account

[Garter_Gertie]

I like reading Rhea. She thinks well.

Gosh! You logic folks! Blow my mind! I just don't get how you do ti.

[Stefan-A]

Next time I have the bulldozer, I really want to dig a nice pond and declare it off limits. The newts, frogs and other amphibians will congregate.

Oh and I almost forgot, Before I die, it is a long time goal of mine to construct a hibernaculum with IR cameras wired to a PC so we could peek in anytime we wanted to without interference. (In the wild)

Heeey, those are my dreams. :D

[Zephyr]

Ooh! I've got it! :D
We could setup a system; a few sets of boards placed at numeric intervals between each other perpendicular to the horizon. We could level the ground where the boards are placed and put a layer of top soil underneath each so the soil conditions would be relatively the same. An area of a certain radius would be weeded as much as possible around the boards. The only thing left to do is check the boards and measured intervals to see if snakes have decided to chill there. The placement of snakes could be measured via a grid that divides each of the boards into a certain number of parts. Any one who knows where garters hang could do this and we could make sure everything is of standard length, measurement and whatnot.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

At this point I would like to mention, that if we are to ponder setting up a scientific experiment to observe social behaviors OR specific instinctual and evolutionarily fine-tuned preferences, we will need to take a lot more variables into consideration.

I agree with the aforementioned set of boards set accordingly within a proposed grid. We need to consider soil types, textures, depths, for they may be unknown catalysts that create a "turn-off" as in "I don't want to coil up over in this corner of the woodpile!" Are we to place thermometers and barometers throughout the arena of research? Do we know the individual species' daily cycle of basking, cooling; do we know where any one individual will be at in its shed cycle? For that matter, how well does any one of us really understand what drives snake behavior in the wild? We keep captives. Many of us do not get the opportunity to get into the field.

What drives snake behavior? Hunger? Yes! Sex? Yes! Retreat from danger and the elements? Yes! If we get more specific (what does the individual snake "want"?) - OH, TO PONDER! How can I be Mr. Snake without all the human mumbo jumbo wishful thinking???? Okay, here goes...
...I mean like if a snake could self realize in our manner...

Once upon a time in a meadow mouse's hole..

Just ate 3 pinkies alive...lump in my throat....need a drink....that mother mouse bit me....too cold outside....gonna get indigestion....stuffs gonna rot....where's a warm rock?...darn I'm slow...Hey! a warm moment...make a slither for that pile of boards...under this board too cool...under that board too hot (catching too much sun)...this board is just right (cool and damp on the bottom, warm above)...HEY! What are you guys doing here?... are you gonna eat me? flick, flick... You don't smell dangerous... flick, flick! You're not a female... hmmm.... Guess I'll stick around for a while...

I'm sorry...can't do it. How could I even begin to imagine? Humans really are silly at times. HA! How can I be Mr. Snake.... Ridiculous