My Heart Beat Theory

[Garter_Gertie]

I'll admit I'm nuts. But I really think this has merit. (I tend to have deep thoughts and do a lot of exenstential thinking...) Let me know your thoughts, particularly if you've noticed/experienced this.

We all know precious baby garters are born live. Unlike other snakes where the chicken-like deal occurs: fertilization, protecting covering, pushed out.

Okay, so for the entire development of those DARLING wee garters (Don'tcha just LOVE'UM!!!!) they're riding around in Mom and hearing her heart beat. For like, what? 45-60 days? Give or take?

I, personally, believe - based on my xperience - this (hearing Mom's heat beat for two months) has an impact on garters. Here's why:

I tend to sit with Winnie cupped in my hands, with my hands resting on my chest just almost smack-dab between my breasts. My hands being right in/close to/near the human heart area. It's just a comfort thing. Try it. You don't even need to support your elbows to be comfy. Well... I *do* have a poochy-outtie belly I'm able to rest my hands on...

Winnie, being WC, is a missy ants-in-her-pants when held. She doesn't Poo any longer, but she is a typical garter and does take time before she settles down.

I've found that when I hold her as I've explained above she will zonk out and go to sleep far quicker than if I just hold her in one hand, cupped and she's curled around my fingers. I mean, there's a HUGE difference in time. And she'll sleep like the dead. ZZZZZzzzzzzzz Yup.

Has anyone else noticed this?

If not, would you give it a try and see if you get the same results? And then post your results? *I* really think I'm on to something. But for all I know I really am certifiable, or this was documented a long time ago and I'm just experiencing a normalcy.

THANKS!!! :D

[Sid]

Haven't tried your method, but I do get great results by cuping my hands together and giving them a dark, warm place to hide. After just a couple og minutes I can open my hands and they are calm.

[Garter_Gertie]

Sid, I don't gotta do the 'dark place' thing. I always hold Winne with her head out between two of my fingers - she DOES NOT like to be cupped up where she can't see.

Most of her body's in my cupped hands but her head and a bit of her "neck" are between my fingers. And she goes out like a light. Uh-ha. Yup.

The Naturalist at the park calls me a "charmer." As in "snake charmer." I said, "Just wait until your wife finds out you called me that!" LOL!!! :D

[Sid]

Sid, I don't gotta do the 'dark place' thing. I always hold Winne with her head out between two of my fingers - she DOES NOT like to be cupped up where she can't see.

Most of her body's in my cupped hands but her head and a bit of her "neck" are between my fingers. And she goes out like a light. Uh-ha. Yup.

The Naturalist at the park calls me a "charmer." As in "snake charmer." I said, "Just wait until your wife finds out you called me that!" LOL!!! :D
OK, you've gotten my intrest. Tomorrow is feeding day and most of mine will be handled. I'll give it a try.

[Garter_Gertie]

Cool. I'm anxious to hear what happens. I'm really interested in this 'theory.' To me it's as clear as a bell and makes perfect sense.

[Snake lover 3-25]

i do that all the time!!!!! but they meaning my largest female is always around my neck... she's a little over 30 in and she sits around my neck or tangled around my hair for as long as 6 hrs.... i've taken her outside, i've done my hw, played on the computer, eaten.... and just about everything besides sleeping with her around my neck.... i sometimes even cross about 20 ft of shallow water and she just hangs out.... i think that she feels secure and warm there and it's by far her fav spot to sit!!!:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Garter_Gertie]

Shanley, I'm a little confused. What do you do all the time? The 'heart thing''? And the rest is more info? Or what?

I LOVED hearing about the sleeping bit!!!!!!!! I've been wracking my brain for a way to 'tame' Winnie/my new babies to come sos I can sleep with them. Wonder how the cats and two Pigglettes [Pugs] would deal with that? But I sleep with all my beebees! I love Winnie/will love my new kids! I want to sleep with them!

On a similiar note, I'm trying to figure out some kind'a 'harness' so I can 'walk' the kids. Let them slither in leaves and scavenge after their own worms. A little harness and leash. I'll be a billionaire once I get it figured out.

[infernalis]

Gertie,
I love your enthusiasm, but here is one very important thing to consider, humans toss, turn and rollover in our sleep. We cannot control this, it's natural and prevents back problems, among others.

Garters are delicate, and considering the way you obviously feel, imagine the devastation of finding out you rolled over on one and killed it.

The snakes will be far better off in an enclosure for the night.

The psychological stress of trying to harness a snake would be detrimental to its well being.

Go buy a $25 collapsible kids pool, and place a few inches of dirt on the bottom, the walls are tall enough to keep them in (Supervised of course) they can have all the sunshine and fresh air you chose to give them, and not be freaking out about a harness strapped to them.

"Taming" is really more about them tolerating our repeat molestations than becoming our friends. They will and do learn their keepers, and realize you are where the food comes from, but we all too frequently try to "humanize" what we think is making them do what they do.

I have studied the psychology of captive reptiles, and psychological health is directly linked to overall physical health.

I'm sure we will chat about this some more, but I'm fading fast....

Goodnight,
Wayne A. Harvey

Oh and feel free to have a look at our "Zoo" at snakes (http://www.reformedsniper.net/snakes.html)

[Stefan-A]

Thank you, Wayne.

[adamanteus]

I've go to agree with Wayne here. It's great to love and enjoy your Garters, but sleeping with them and harnessing them, are both extraordinarily bad ideas I'm afraid.

[Garter_Gertie]

Well. It was a thought(s). The sleeping more wishful thinking than anything.

You guys are so nice in the way you word your wisdoms! I like that you don't say, "Don't do it," but rather, "IF you DO do it, here's what's gonna happen..."

Yes, Wayne, I definitely want to talk more about the psych health of snakes. I understand there are some folks that keep their kids in stacks of sweater boxes on rolly-things. I also understand snakes are like, in the book I read as a child, "Avoid large places, keep to small." BUT... would not a snake, with lots of hideys and grasses and chips and rocks and bark like enough room to move around in? Isn't it better to have a larger enclosure - giving the snake what it needs and approximating nature as much as feasible - than keeping them a plastic box too small for them to go any where, unable to use all their muscles and stay fit, and not getting any natural light whatsoever?

Back to my theory. What do you guys think of that?

[Garter_Gertie]

P.S. LOVE the pool idea! Wonderful idea. Never thought/considered that. Will do, Wayne. And I'll also be able to use it for the Pigglettes to cool off in. Well, me too.

And the snakes, right? Or would the chlorinated water hurt them?

[adamanteus]

... would not a snake, with lots of hideys and grasses and chips and rocks and bark like enough room to move around in? Isn't it better to have a larger enclosure - giving the snake what it needs and approximating nature as much as feasible - than keeping them a plastic box too small for them to go any where, unable to use all their muscles and stay fit, and not getting any natural light whatsoever?

I couldn't agree more if I'd written it myself!:D
However, that said I know that many people use various rack systems without any problems.
For me the whole reason I keep the Garters is for my viewing pleasure, for this they need to be 'show-cased' in a large, attractive 'natural' looking viv.

[Stefan-A]

Or would the chlorinated water hurt them?
It would, the chlorine should be allowed to dissipate before it's safe for snakes.

[Garter_Gertie]

See, James. That's just it. I'm getting these guys as pets to play with, watch, enjoy, etc. If it were that I had to keep them in a rack system with no other alternative I doubt I'd get a snake(s). Why bother? I LOVE aquariums and the beauty and peace they give. They're wet art. I view my snakes' home(s) the same way. I want them where I am and to be attractive as possible. The more attractive, the better for the creatures living in them.

It is SO REFRESHING not to get slammed about my views. I take a lot of heat at the MN (Minnesota) Herp Society forum and just a little less at kingsnake.com for wanting 90 gal tank (4 feet long) for an adult Hoggy that's going to reach 3 feet or a little less. In my mind my tank's is still to small!

THANKS, JAMES!!!!!!!!!!!

[Garter_Gertie]

It would, the chlorine should be allowed to dissipate before it's safe for snakes.

Thanks! That is so good to know so that I set out water [for drinking] a day before I clean water dishes. And/or buy distilled water.

I'm so glad I asked!

[Stefan-A]

See, James. That's just it. I'm getting these guys as pets to play with, watch, enjoy, etc.
They are indeed great to watch and enjoy, but don't try to play with them.

[Lori P]

Gertie, you are after my own heart. One of the things I had to realize about my snakes is that as much as I looooooooove them, they don't really looooooooove me. :) They have come to accept me as part of their environment and seem to do best, overall, when handled less and simply provided with the very best environment I can give them.

I have come to understand, too, that snakes are most secure when they have plenty of small, size-appropriate hiding places. But I've never come to believe that keeping them in tiny tanks is the answer... rather, in my opinion, providing them with a multitude of different types of hides (from thick greenery to actual hides of different size and textures, to branches and other climbs) in a large enclosure still gives them their feelings of security while allowing them to move, explore, and excercise. If they want to hide, they can; if they want to creep around under the greenery, they can.

Of course, the more detailed the tank, the harder to clean. Or at least, the more time consuming it becomes.

I do see merit in your heartbeat-as-a-soother theory. Altho I think perhaps, a mother snake's heartbeat would sound different from a human's... what's the normal bpm for a snake????

And trust me, if your puglets are anything like my puglets, there'd be no bed sharing... they'd keep us all up all night snuffling the snakes non stop. lol :)

[Snake lover 3-25]

wow i missed alot.... okay... so what i ment was that i hold them around my neck all the time and that your neck has a pulse too so you may be on to something....

but i agree with the others on the whole sleeping and leash thing.... i just let mine go around my yard and make sure that they don't get too close to the road or the porch....2/3 are wc so they enjoy being outside...... i take the turtle out too... esp when it's raining!!!:D:D:D but i've personally made a leash for an adult turtle and taken it down to the creak for a swim...... but it's basically imposible to do that for a snake... without injuring it....:D:D:D

[infernalis]

We keep our animals in the largest possible enclosure I can come up with.

My friend Suzanne built a huge glass sun room for her Iguanas:)

I like woodworking, and have a good supplier of safety glass panels, so I build a box with glass on the front, and a locking cover.

I will take some pictures from further back, so you can see.

Here is one I took today, She is getting plump;)

Not so much time right now, but I will agree, KS is a forum mostly dominated by breeders, and they tend to get a little snotty.

I will NEVER house an animal in a sweater box with old newspapers on the floor.

Regards,
Wayne

http://www.reformedsniper.net/gsm/garters_040.jpg

[GartersRock]

Wayne, what do you think of the way Scott Felzer house's his garters?

[jeanette]

The heart beat theory isnt a new thing, its been investigated in mammels but not so much in reptiles.
any creature that spends any amount of time with its own kind can also respond to the comfort of a heart beat, but even snakes born from eggs can respond to the sound of a heart beat especially males that have just become of breeding age and have never smelt a female in oestrus . Much to my hubby's delight and imense laughter we discovered that our Ball/Royal Python had infact initiated a mating ritual with me, he crawled up my body to my neck (felt my heartbeat) and proceeded to massage the area whilst rubbing his spurs on my arm. We thought this was completely off the wall and went and had a chat with our herpetologist friend. he said its not usual but it can happen, and it could just have easily happened to my hubby as it did to me. The male having never smelt a female of his own kind in heat and having just come of breeding age responded to my heart beat. i feel so violated :D :D :D

[adamanteus]

Did your 'herpetologist' friend tell you this on April 1st? It gives a whole new meaning to 'anything with a heartbeat'!:D

[Garter_Gertie]

Much to my hubby's delight and imense laughter we discovered that our Ball/Royal Python had infact initiated a mating ritual with me, he crawled up my body to my neck (felt my heartbeat) and proceeded to massage the area whilst rubbing his spurs on my arm. We thought this was completely off the wall and went and had a chat with our herpetologist friend. he said its not usual but it can happen, and it could just have easily happened to my hubby as it did to me. The male having never smelt a female of his own kind in heat and having just come of breeding age responded to my heart beat. i feel so violated :D :D :D

It took me awhile to figure out when my parrot got all excited and got 'sticky stuff' all over his perch what he was trying to tell me. Never knew snakes could do it too! :)

[adamanteus]

I'm dumbfounded. All I can really add is a quote from myself on another thread.

"I really can't argue on this any more. It's such utter nonsense that I'm actually embarrassed to be discussing it!"

[jeanette]

Did your 'herpetologist' friend tell you this on April 1st? It gives a whole new meaning to 'anything with a heartbeat'!:D
im afraid not :D

[Snake lover 3-25]

lol well then you don't have to!!!!!!


I'm dumbfounded. All I can really add is a quote from myself on another thread.

"I really can't argue on this any more. It's such utter nonsense that I'm actually embarrassed to be discussing it!"

[Stefan-A]

lol well then you don't have to!!!!!!
I think it is nice to hear a voice of reason every now and then.

[Garter_Gertie]

Forgive me for posting this topic. To me it was new, wonderful and enlightning. Again, I'm new to this. I found it so exciting and wonderful. Like a door into the world of snakes - like getting in touch with them on their level. Like we could communicate in some way.

It excited me so much that in a primeval way I could communicate with Wiinne and we could join - I dare not say bond.

I do feel I communicate with Winnie, and will with my own snakes. Bonding may only be one way, but that doesn't mean it's frivolous or not real or less important than a two-way bond.

Ya'gotta take things at face value. A snake is NOT gonna 'bond' like a dog or cat or a human. But I do truly believe a snake will form a relationship. Of some kind.

[KITKAT]

I couldn't agree more if I'd written it myself!:D
However, that said I know that many people use various rack systems without any problems.
For me the whole reason I keep the Garters is for my viewing pleasure, for this they need to be 'show-cased' in a large, attractive 'natural' looking viv.

I like a glass front viv because not only can I see the garters, but they can see me! My garters stare at me as I work. Yeah, they are probably hoping the next meal is coming... but there has to be more to it than that, because they also stare at me after meals sometimes. I also believe that a garter may feel secure in a sweater box, but will be more stimulated mentally if it has places to explore and room to move around.

[KITKAT]

And from the cat world, I can relate. My studcat Obie bred the back of my neck once. Since claws and teeth were present, though not engaged in this act, I just held still and let him finish.

And sure enough! 65 days later, I had four kittens... and they came out of my middle finger!

LOL


The heart beat theory isnt a new thing, its been investigated in mammels but not so much in reptiles.
any creature that spends any amount of time with its own kind can also respond to the comfort of a heart beat, but even snakes born from eggs can respond to the sound of a heart beat especially males that have just become of breeding age and have never smelt a female in oestrus . Much to my hubby's delight and imense laughter we discovered that our Ball/Royal Python had infact initiated a mating ritual with me, he crawled up my body to my neck (felt my heartbeat) and proceeded to massage the area whilst rubbing his spurs on my arm. We thought this was completely off the wall and went and had a chat with our herpetologist friend. he said its not usual but it can happen, and it could just have easily happened to my hubby as it did to me. The male having never smelt a female of his own kind in heat and having just come of breeding age responded to my heart beat. i feel so violated :D :D :D

[jeanette]

Forgive me for posting this topic. To me it was new, wonderful and enlightning. Again, I'm new to this. I found it so exciting and wonderful. Like a door into the world of snakes - like getting in touch with them on their level. Like we could communicate in some way.

It excited me so much that in a primeval way I could communicate with Wiinne and we could join - I dare not say bond.

I do feel I communicate with Winnie, and will with my own snakes. Bonding may only be one way, but that doesn't mean it's frivolous or not real or less important than a two-way bond.

Ya'gotta take things at face value. A snake is NOT gonna 'bond' like a dog or cat or a human. But I do truly believe a snake will form a relationship. Of some kind.
i agree that it is possible to form some kind of relationship with them, and i truely do not know how they view this relationship but its something, some kind of relationship. i guess we will never know unless we can get into the brain of a snake.