Amphibian diet

[Zephyr]

I've read a few posts and whatnot, and I'm sort of tired of hearing this but...
WHAT'S THE DEAL!?
Everywhere I go, it's "amphibians are loaded with parasites" blah blah blah.
So we discourage them as use for food. However, if they SUPPOSEDLY make up the bulk of wild Thamnophis diets, then why don't we use them?
I'm not saying let's all go out and grab some toadies for our snakes, but why not?
The acid in a snake's stomach, although not particularly strong I believe, destroys and decomposes meals, and I once read that 85% of a snake's immune system is in it's gut. Perhaps by depriving them of the occasional amphibian we're also making them weaker. Even though wild snakes have "better" immune systems, they had to develop the resistance somewhere.
Just playing the devil's advocate.
Also, don't bring up the declining amphibian populations junk. This is assuming that the amphibians are provided from a 100% sound environ, legally harvested, etc.

[jeanette]

ok heres an alternative opinion. snakes immune systems decline in captivity, is that due to their diet or due to the fact that they are not exposed to the natural pathogens that occur in the wild, in order for an immune system to be able to fight something off it has to have actually been in contact with a small part of the pathogen to start with.
that isnt just snake immunity, that is everything immunity, it is what vaccines were first introduced for. give somebody a little bit of this virus and the immune system breaks it down and builds antibodies to fight it, so when the body is exposed to the real illness it can fight it.
diet is not a contributing factor in immunity providng all vitamins and nutrients are being provided, theres nothing to say that frogs need to be fed to a snake in order to help its immunity, unless theres a certain vitamin or nutrient that is lacking in everything else it eats that can only be provided by the frog.

[Zephyr]

Yes, but the pathogens would have to come from, most likely, a food source. Or, more or less likely, an open wound, which is uncommon in captivity. Also, as noted, a very large percent of the snake's immune system is in it's gut, meaning that for the breaking down and "Vaccination" to occur, the pathogen must be digested about 85% of the time.

[jeanette]

You are correct that a large part of a snakes immune system is in its gut, but not all.
the garter snake also has a lymphatic system similar to a mammels just like any other snake.
here is some information that may help you.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1457207
Its a lot of reading but quite interesting they have many characteristics that many constrictors have whose diet doesnt consist of amphibians
Many people have the opinion that its being captive itself which is what has weakened the garters immune system, due to the extra stress. I think that may be a point several people dissagree with, but its still some peoples opinion.
In medical journels you will often find the discussion that its the present day world we live in that has made more people susceptable to illnesses such as asthma and eczema, the opinion is that non exposure, a sheltered life, so to speak is what has led to a large rise in these medical conditions (obvious additional factors would be industrial areas, but not everyone lives in industrial areas).
Maybe this is a factor that needs to be examined closely.
I really dont believe feeding amphibians is going to make any kind of difference to a garters immune system.
but i guess people will always have their own opinion on feeding too.

[Loren]

I do think that being captive does make a difference. Not just stress, but also that fact the the snake lives in the same area it craps. Even if we clean cages regularly, the snake still lives in the same small area that it deficates, and we cant always be standing there ready to clean when they go- especially if they go in their water while soaking in it, in which case they can re-take in parasites/pathogens through any orfice or cut(or by drinking it), and eventually get more of a parasite load than they can handle, especially if the snake is stressed.
The other thing, my opinion anyways, is that we often think that snakes in the wild never get sick, but I am sure that snakes do get ill from parasites in the wild- just maybe not often.
Anyhow, I do feed frogs and lizards to some snakes, but like to freeze them for a few weeks first.
Just my thoughts, but I'm anything but a vet. :)

[larean]

I think wild snakes nearly always have some sort of disease/injury/parasite. They can just live with it, or they can't. Isn't that why life expectancy in the wild is much shorter?

Of course you want to let your snake live as long as possible, but you shouldn't be over protective either. As long as you are careful with how you keep it/feed it, I don't think there should be much of a problem feeding them amphibians.

And as for stress, I don't know if there is much difference in the amount of stress they get in the wild or captive. The 'wild' is full of stress (predators), and I imagine that staying alive is a constant struggle.

This is just my humble 15 year old opinion:), and I'm of course not an expert.


PS, how long does it take for any 'nastiness' to develop on feces?

[Stefan-A]

I think wild snakes nearly always have some sort of disease/injury/parasite. They can just live with it, or they can't. Isn't that why life expectancy in the wild is much shorter?
You could say that nature provides less than optimal living conditions. ;) A huge portion of them die during hibernation and the parasite load probably has some significance.

Learned an interesting fact about certain local fish species, by the way. During mating season they generally fast and can actually kill off most of their intestinal parasites by doing so. I wonder if somebody has done a study on snakes and if they can do the same.

[larean]

Cool:) I would say that fasting isn't too much of a problem for a reptile, especialy a snake, but I guess it would also depend on the kind of parasite, and the snake species as well.

[Zephyr]

I was also told by a qualified vet that the reason why you don't feed snakes while they have illnesses/parasites is because it takes that 85% of their immune system off of its bodily defensive duties and puts it on to digestion.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

I only have 3 garters. My one-eyed Oregon Garter eats guppies, fresh pieces of trout (haven't got the gelatin right yet with Alan Francis' trout recipe), and tadpoles. My Northwestern only eats tadpoles (won't even touch an earthworm or slug!). My blue Coast is on pinkies. Oh, if they could all just eat rodents, wouldn't the nutrition be complete and the parasite problems less worrisome!

I do not get my tadpoles from environmentally sensitive areas (they come from massive breeding pools from clean woodland seeps)

Still, I would love for my 2 garters to feed on something other than amphibs.
Still trying.

I am a wildlife biology major with an emphasis in herpetology. I have only WC's. I don't really collect or intend to breed CB's. I do intend to research local hybridization among our local species. So, I am sure such feeding fiascos will be commonplace for me now and in the future!

Ughh!

Steven