puget sounds *pics*

[mikm]

Guess I was fortunate in not having any health issues with these thus far. I feed them rosies ... I have thrown in a f/t pink with the feeder fish a few times and they have taken them w/o realizing what it was but rosies are their primary diet. My girls are both a stunning blue while the male is a lime green. I got them late last summer and all appear robust and feed very well. I had ordered/asked for babies or very young animals and received a yearling plus female and an adult pair. I too wondered about the *cbb* claim with these. I was assured they were *cbb* however I suspect LTC ... or perhaps Short_TC ??? lol

[GarterGuy]

You didn't happen to get them from a guy named Bob did you? If so, you might want to do some scale counts on them. He was selling T.s.pickeringii "blue phase", but what they really were, were blue phase T.ordinoides. Very nice looking snakes either way and glad to hear they're doing well.
---Roy

[abcat1993]

I'd rather have a puget sound than a blue phase. How much are they anyways?

[mikm]

thanks ... yes, I think everyone got these from *bob* either directly or indirectly, lol ;)) Please tell me more about the scale count for both sub-species ... I have never done this before. I do really like these regardless but I would like to know which they are. I have kept quite a few garter sub-species over the years and these are very close to the Similis in regards to their blue.

much thanks for sharing !!
marian

[Snaky]

We miss an emoticon, I wanted to use it now... The *drool* icon, let me give an example:

http://forum.dierenparadijs.be/style_emoticons/default/drool.gif

[Cazador]

Very nice looking snakes, Marion. You were lucky to get ones with so much blue on their undersides :D.

[snakeman]

Marian, Yours are definitely puget sounds.

[Gijs & Sabine]

We miss an emoticon, I wanted to use it now... The *drool* icon, let me give an example:

http://forum.dierenparadijs.be/style_emoticons/default/drool.gif

I absolutely agree with Snaky...... they are real beauties:)

[Cazador]

Snakeman,
Out of curiosity, what are the unique characteristics that tell you they're Puget Sound garters? I'm really weak at snake ID. Thanks,
Rick

[mikm]

jeez thanks to all you folks !! what a nice greeting from a forum :)) I started with Garters then also acquired some very high end Corns. I am a small time hobbyist and like to trade my animals or find a suitable home for them whenever a new sub-species catches my eye. I usually enjoy/keep 2 specific sub-species colonies for a few years. At the moment I have the Pacific NW Reds & the Blues ... I parted w/the Corns as I found them not nearly as enjoyable, but that's another topic for another time ...

thanks again,
marian

[Thamnophis]

Wow Marian, whatever species it is... they are very beautiful!!!

[GarterGuy]

thanks ... yes, I think everyone got these from *bob* either directly or indirectly, lol ;)) Please tell me more about the scale count for both sub-species ... I have never done this before. I do really like these regardless but I would like to know which they are. I have kept quite a few garter sub-species over the years and these are very close to the Similis in regards to their blue.

much thanks for sharing !!
marian

OK, from what we all determined with the last Puget vs Ordiniodes........T.ordiniodes have 7-8 upper labials, 8 lower labials, internasals that are equal to or shorter then the prefrontals and have 17 scale rows
T.s.pickeringii has 7-8 upper labials, 10 lower labials, and 19 scale rows
Check out this site....has all the stats...really cool! (Key to California Gartersnakes (http://www.californiaherps.com/identification/snakesid/gartersnakeskey.html)).

So far the snakes that we've been getting from "Bob" have been the T.ordiniodes and not the T.s.pickeringii

[mikm]

thank you for the info GG !! the link to the site you provided is VERY cool indeed :D ...

m'

[GarterGuy]

Can't take all the credit, Rick (aka: Cazador) is the one who originally posted it while we were trying to ID our blue garters from the infamous "Bob".

[snakeman]

I go by the head shape also northwesterns don't get very big.Plus I have never seen a blue phase northwestern look anything like that.The northwesterns I know do not have that much contrast.most you can barely see the lateral stripe.

[snakeman]

I looked at the cali website.If you go by those pics who knows what you got.Most I have seen the head is not bigger than the neck.

[Cazador]

Thanks snakeman. These seem to be getting more and more popular and are turning up all over the place. I had one male with a very short and blunt head and a female with a long, thin head. They arrived in the same delivery. Strange. I just suspected that the male was born with an abnormally small head, but now I think there may have been more to it. I don't think this will be the last of this issue. I also have some dead ones in the freezer that I can do tooth counts on and perhaps use Rossman et. al's (1991) key to further break them apart. More to follow, I suppose.
Rick

[garterking]

You didn't happen to get them from a guy named Bob did you? If so, you might want to do some scale counts on them. He was selling T.s.pickeringii "blue phase", but what they really were, were blue phase T.ordinoides. Very nice looking snakes either way and glad to hear they're doing well.
---Roy

Happy to hear they are doing so well. I too contacted Bob about getting a couple but after I read the horror stories here, decided against getting them. Maybe they were just a troubled clutch to begin with, and no matter how good their care was wouldn't have mattered.

This has again peaked my interest in buying a couple. Are there more positive stories out there?? They really are beautiful snakes.

[KITKAT]

One of my adults is eating and looks healthy. The other adult is not eating, but I can find nothing wrong.

[suzoo]

Mikm,
Excellent pic.s of your girls! They are all beautiful snakes!!
Suzoo

[snakeman]

The problem with these snakes is he probally had a ton of them housed together.He raided a den early in the spring and got a ton of them.The people who got theirs early probally had no problems.After being housed together for a month or so thats when the problem snakes got sent out.

[Cazador]

Hey snakeman,
I suspect that you're right about raiding the den for a few reasons, but that's another story. I bought four from him (2 adults and two yearlings). Unfortunately, the yearlings both died. One died within 2-3 weeks of arrival, and the other one showed similar symptoms, like failure to eat developing into runny stool (although not particularily smelly). Eventually the symptoms progressed into gaping mouth and lethargy, and finally came uncoordination and death. It wasn't pretty. The second yearling started showing similar signs. When it stopped eating for just over a week, I started force feeding it. This seemed to prolong it's life, but ultimately, it suffered the same fate as the yearling female.

I started medicating the adults before they showed any of the symptoms, and today, their feces is free of parasites, and I'm happy to report, they're in excellent health. In fact, I've been withholding their food for about 2 weeks and have been dropping their temperature and photoperiod in preparation for brumation. I don't know if you'd consider this a success story or not, but I believe his snakes are fragile and should be considered heavily parasitized. If you order from him, my advise is to check the fecal samples and be prepared to treat them. I haven't had any problems with mites on them, but others have who ordered from him.

Marian,
I hope your snakes are healthy and thriving, and I also hope you'll keep us informed.

Rick

[GarterGuy]

All three of my neonates that I got from "Bob" suffered the same type of demise described by Rick. Also, I found some mites on them as well. One never ate, one ate very well....even shed and then died and the other didn't eat at first, then started eating well....then died. Very frustrating and sad.:(

[Tori]

I was considering buying a couple from Bob. I take it that that is a bad idea? Did treating for parasites help? That's too bad, just glad I held off and bought a male California red-sided instead. But I was still thinking about buying some soon, are there any breeders that have the puget sounds?

[Stefan-A]

It's not my intention to moralize here, but maybe you shouldn't support people like him?

[garterking]

It's not my intention to moralize here, but maybe you shouldn't support people like him?

Well Stated Stefan. While I don't want to judge others, I do agree with you. I talked to Bob about a month ago, and while we emailed back and forth a few times, I did ask him about some of the stories I heard. (very politely I might ad) His last email to me was "If you're not comfortable with the situation, then don't order them. Someone else will buy them"
This is only my opinion but, I think he's just in it for the money, and not for the enjoyment that the rest of us on this board are here for.

[Tori]

I did not purchase my California redsided from Bob. I decided against buying from someone that I didn't know anything about and went with a breeder that I had some experience with. How am I supporting Bob? If you will read what I posted again you will see that I was asking if there are any breeders that do have puget sound garters.

[Cazador]

Hi Pamela,
Long time no see. I saw that Scott Felzer advertized them here (Puget Sound Garters-Very nice and turn blue! - Garter, Water & Ribbon Snakes (http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82974)) last year, but they're not advertised on his website (Scott Felzer's Garter Snakes (http://www.gartersnakemorphs.com/price.html)). Curious! I've also seen "Glades herps" advertise them in the past (Glades Herp Inc. (http://www.gherp.com/)). I'd drop them both an e-mail in a month or two to see what they expect to have next summer. Best of luck,

Rick

[Stefan-A]

I did not purchase my California redsided from Bob. I decided against buying from someone that I didn't know anything about and went with a breeder that I had some experience with. How am I supporting Bob? If you will read what I posted again you will see that I was asking if there are any breeders that do have puget sound garters.
It wasn't aimed at you, Tori, but at those that do get their snakes from him and people like him. Neither was it an accusation, but a suggestion.

[snakeman]

everybody got their puget sounds off of the same guy.If Scott advertises his next year or if marian gets babies That will be you best bet.That way at least the babies will be true captive bred.

[Tori]

Hey Rick, it has been a while. Been trying to get a new business on its feet, plus working another job and school. Hard to spend much time online right now. As you may have noticed I bought a new California red-sided. The 2 I have are related, not sure if that matters as much with snakes but I didn't want to have to worry about it. He's a very nice '03 male from Scott Felzer's stock. My female is an '05 and larger than he is already. She ought to be ready to breed next year. Should I keep you in mind when she has them? It's hard to judge his size, he wouldn't stay out of the end of the tank or go near the ruler, but he looks great to me.

http://www.repticzone.net/images/13869/CaliforniaRed-sidedgarter05.jpg

Pamela

[abcat1993]

Is that a San Fran garter or just a cali red-sided? I'm guessing red sided since you live in Michigan. Either way, nice snake

[mikm]

pamela ... that's a beautiful Cali R_Side ... they're *feisty* aren't they ?? I have seen Scott's R_Side stock first hand, it was a baby and it was quite stunning to look at in person :)

[Cazador]

Nah Pamela... yours seems to have a lump in its mid-section. Something must be wrong with it :rolleyes:. Actually, I would love you to keep me in mind. Please let me know when/if the young ones arrive ;).
Rick

[Tori]

abcat: Yes it is a cali red-sided. See what look like large red spots on his side? On a San Francisco garter that would be a solid red stripe. That is the only difference in appearance that I am aware of between them. And thanks.

mikm: Mine aren't fiesty exactly. Verrrrry healthy appetites, always hungry and pushy about being fed. But I can pick up any of them without any trouble at all and they calm down very quickly. When they strike at the glass because they see me feeding other snakes I don't take it personally. :D .

Rick: Hmmm....lump my foot...:D That's just jealousy talking. My female is about 25 inches long and has a very good girth. Do you think it would be ok to let them try this year? She is eating large fuzzies and could probably handle a small mouse, I just don't want to have to buy 2 different sizes. That many mice gets verrrrry expensive after a bit.

[Cazador]

Hi Pamela,
Your infernalis female is mature and ready to breed. Reproduction depends more on size than on age, and that's even true with a lot of mammals. Some particularily fast growing snakes have been reported to mate and deliver live young before they reached one year of age, although this isn't recommended. If they're bred too young, it can stunt their growth and they can also have a hard time in delivery. Your two-year old female is fine, though. She'll be in her prime during her third and fourth years. If you introduce the male to her enclosure, and he isn't interested, you might want to start brumating her while there's still time, though.

Robert Riches (1976) says that, "male garters normally mate when they're between 18 & 19" in length, and females between 22 & 24". Rossman et al. (1991) say that female T.s. infernalis, in particular, are sexually mature at a total length of about 24". (I'm converting SVL to total length on that last stat).

Rick

[suzoo]

Hi Tori,
I would also like to know when your babies arrive! Even if you have them all sold, I would love to see the pics of them! Your male is BEAUTIFUL!!

[Tori]

My female is identical to him only a little longer and about twice his girth. Believe me, there will be lots of pics, I'm a sucker for baby snakes. Wonder why human babies never had that affect on me? Maybe I'm abnormal....LOL.

[Odie]

That's a abbbb... abbbb.. ab-normal Tori :D