Fasting Ribbon- Please help?

[rafiki]

He hasn't eaten for at least 1 and 1/2 weeks for sure, but I think its more, it could be as long as 3 weeks. I'm not positive because both my dad and I take care of him.
We got him from Petco (I know, bad) about 5 years ago as a baby, and he's been a voracious eater his entire life, until now. He usually eats medium (1-2 inches long) feeder goldfish 2-3 times a week.
Otherwise, he is active, bright-eyed, and basking daily. He lives in a 20g with a UV light on 12 hours, off 12 hours.
He's been unhandle-able for the last 2 years or so, spraying his stinky stuff and doing the whole death roll thing. Is this related at all?

Should I offer different kinds of fish? We tried pinkies once months ago, but he ignored them. He doesn't eat dead things either.
Is this some kind of vitamin deficiency?
Should I find a reptile vet? I really can't afford it right now, but if he continues to starve himself, I guess I don't have a choice!
Please help! Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
-Kayti

[adamanteus]

Yes, this is 'some kind of vitamin deficiency'.
The Goldfish you've been feeding to him for the past years are toxic to him. They contain an enzyme (thiaminase) which destroys the thiamin in his body. Thiamin is essential for the sythesis of calcium.
I would suggest a vet visit, an immediate change of diet and reading through the Care Sheets on this forum.

[Stefan-A]

What James said, plus that thiamin deficiency can cause neurodegeneration.

[drache]

Kayti
the worst thing about getting a garter or ribbon snake at petco is that they invariably give the wrong dietary advice
I hope it's not too late for your little one
welcome to this forum and I hope it works out alright

[Zephyr]

I'm wondering if the UV light has, in some way detered the effects of the thiaminase. Otherwise, I'd think a 5 year old ribbon fed entirely on goldfish would be dead by now.

[Stefan-A]

No, UV light stimulates the production of D3, which actually is necessary for a lot of diurnal reptiles and is supposed to prevent metabolic bone disease (MBD).

[Zephyr]

No, UV light stimulates the production of D3, which actually is necessary for a lot of diurnal reptiles and is supposed to prevent metabolic bone disease (MBD).I thought D3 is vital in the use of calcium...

[Elliot]

I thought D3 is vital in the use of calcium...

It is, MBD is caused by a lack of calcium/D3 or a bad ratio of the two.

[rafiki]

Oh my god! He's been fed goldfish his entire life. What should I feed him? Guppies? Aren't they too small?
He refuses to even sniff pinkies, or earthworms.
I'm afraid to use fish from the supermarket because I've heard so many horror stories about it. I'd really rather not go there, if there's any other way.

What do you feed?

[adamanteus]

I use trout (from the supermarket).

[Lori P]

Kayti, you can try getting him to eat pinkies by scenting them with a goldfish for now (since he's used to the smell of goldfish) and then progressing onto scenting the pinkies with minnows or guppies, or trout, salmon, or tilapia from the store. You may find that if you put some guppies in a bowl of water with some pinkies, in his efforts to hit the guppies he'll grab a pinkie instead. Same for pieces of trout or salmon; put them in the water with live guppies swimming about. Ribbons seem to be harder to get onto pinkies, but it can be done. Keep us posted!!!!

[rafiki]

But he's not even eating his goldfish now. So would scenting work? I tried him with salmon tonight, first with tongs, then with the hand, then in his water, then just next to his basking rock, and NOTHING worked. He didn't even sniff.
Eating is usually his favorite part of life, I can't understand what has changed. I'm going to try feeder guppies tomorrow... any other suggestions?
Thanks for all your replies everyone

[Stefan-A]

Well, James did suggest a vet visit.

[rafiki]

I looked up reptile vets in my area, and the one that seemed to have the most positive reviews was "Phinney Ridge Animal Hospital". Anyone have any experience with herp vets in the PNW?

Does anyone have any idea how much this vet visit will cost?

[drache]

I'm afraid to use fish from the supermarket because I've heard so many horror stories about it. I'd really rather not go there, if there's any other way.
do make sure the supermarket fist is frozen and thawed to reduce parasites

[Lori P]

You might want to run a very fresh fecal sample to your vet (it's a good way to break the ice with them, and then talk about if he needs to be seen). He may have picked up parasites or bacteria from the goldfish. It would be a starting point...

[rafiki]

That stool sample idea sounds very do-able. Do you know what the vet would be looking for exactly?

Today we put a big fat guppy in his water, which he proceeded to catch, (!!) and then spit up into the coconut. :(
Does anyone know what this might mean?
He's obviously hungry. Could he have some kind of obstruction?

edit: If he hasn't eaten by tomorrow, I'll take him, and his poo to the vet.

[infernalis]

Any news on the vet visit??

I had to take my Puget to the vet, it was $65 for the visit, and with his medicine the whole trip was just under a hundred dollars.

and ignore anyone who thinks your nuts for taking that ribbon to the vet, pets are like family members:)

Hope you got that little fella (or gal) eating again.

Kind regards,
Wayne A. Harvey

snakes (http://www.reformedsniper.net/snakes.html)

[rafiki]

Hey, new update: I talked to my vet on the phone, and he said that 2 weeks is nothing for a snake to go without food. Is this true? Dose anyone know exactly how long I should wait to take him in to the vet? The vet didn't give me an exact timeline, he just said to wait until he looked noticeably less active/skinnier. Rafe is still very active, and I don't think he's any skinnier. I wish I had a gram scale. How do you tell if a snake is skinny? The neck area? Should his neck be skinnier than his head?
If I post pictures, can someone tell me if he is skinny?

[Stefan-A]

Yes, it's true. I have snakes that have now been without eating for over a month. As long as they still seem to be in good shape, it's not anything to worry about. Babies on the other hand are more sensitive.

With garters, you would probably know best by looking at the shape of the body. If you can easily feel the spine, or perhaps even see it, or if the body is very triangular, then it's skinny. Or you could weigh it and see how quickly it loses weight.

[infernalis]

When you can see a spine, and the body looks like it has too much skin, it's way too thin.

About the only way to accurately tell without waiting that long is a gram scale.

"Best Buy" has one for around $40 that works great.

I know how expensive vet visits are, but I love my animals, so I just grin and bear it. ($65 just to walk in the door!)

My vet thinks I'm cool. (Why not, I bring her WC snakes to treat) but not many people come to her office with Garters)

Best luck,
Wayne A. Harvey

[rafiki]

Alrighty. He still hasn't eaten. And he now has a very visible lump in the last third of his body. It looks like a food lump, but is not.

I took him to the Bird and Exotic Vet of Seattle yesterday. They took an ex ray, and have tentatively decided that the lump looks like fish bones.
He is on injectable Baytril (.01 ml) once daily,
and one drop of mineral oil in mouth twice daily for seven days.
He is not happy about either, and I'm not sure I'm getting enough mineral oil into his mouth. He is very small, and never opens up. I get it on his tongue when he flicks though. The shot is way easier, I don't think he even feels it.
The vet said a diet of goldfish did not cause thiamine deficiency in ribbon snakes, but that it will give the snake parasites, like any live fish diet.

Overall, he is still active and fast. I think he does look a little skinny though. He is also getting easier to handle, which worries me slightly, but it may be just because I've been holding him so much more often lately, for his treatments.

From my limited experience, it seems to me like domestic animal veterinary medicine is a lot more science focused than reptile medicine, which almost seems more like common sense/guess work. Does this seem right to anyone else? I asked around, and this vet has a very good reputation. I guess only time will tell if her treatment will work.

If anyone has any tips for getting the mineral oil down him, please let me know.

[jitami]

No advice, but hoping all goes well with Rafe's treatment. Hopefully someone more experienced will chime in with advice. Please keep us updated.

[Snake lover 3-25]

idk either... but i'd make sure that he's drinking some water:D hope he gets well soon!!!:D:D

[adamanteus]

If the vet thinks the lump is lodged fish bones, I don't understand what he thinks will be achieved by Baytril and minerals. Also, he is wrong about the Goldfish/thiaminase thing. They do contain high levels of thiaminase and this will cause problems eventually.

[Loren]

If the vet thinks the lump is lodged fish bones, I don't understand what he thinks will be achieved by Baytril and minerals. Also, he is wrong about the Goldfish/thiaminase thing. They do contain high levels of thiaminase and this will cause problems eventually.
Mineral oil is sometimes given to help dislodge/lubricate or soften impactions. I guess that must be why she advised it. Not sure on the baytril though- unless she thinks there is an infection at the bone site.

[Jenlang_79]

I don't have any advice on the medicine..but I do want to say good luck with your little guy...it sounds like it is not life threatening if treated..that is great news!!!:)

[drache]

my first hit guess at the lump had been impacted food
the oil seems like a good idea, but I would have gone with an animal based oil (fish oil), rather than mineral oil which I believe is made from petroleum or some byproduct of gasoline production
the way to get it in the mouth would be to pry the mouth open carefully by sticking the corner of a stiff business card, credit card, or the like into the opening that the tongue comes out of when the mouth is closed and then turn it to get the edge of the card into the mouth - gently!
then you can insert a dropper or syringe
it's fine to stick something down their throat a little - they don't have a gag reflex - just make sure it's nothing that can puncture or scratch them

unless the vet saw some sort of abscess or infection also, I'm not sure what the baytril is for and I don't agree with the goldfish being fine either

[Zephyr]

Is it a female? Maybe it's jellybean lodged in there if it's a mass of bones... Also, I've heard of numerous people feeding their ribbon snake only live goldfish with regular growth rates and no problems. Maybe ribbons process their food differently than garters...

[EdgyExoticReptiles]

i doubt it

Is it a female? Maybe it's jellybean lodged in there if it's a mass of bones... Also, I've heard of numerous people feeding their ribbon snake only live goldfish with regular growth rates and no problems. Maybe ribbons process their food differently than garters...

[Lori P]

Good luck... mineral oil is probably being used as the body doesn't digest any of it, it just passes thru, as opposed to organic oils which are partially digested. And the vet probably put him on the antibiotic therapy to fight off any overgrowth of bad bacteria brought on by the stress of the impaction.

[adamanteus]

Personally, I can't see any kind of oil dislodging fish bones.

[Lori P]

Well, mineral oil is a natural laxative and lubricant-- so maybe the vet is hoping it will ease their passage on out. I guess whether it works or not is to be seen.

[Spiritwolf]

I tricked my adult garters into eating f/t pinkies by scenting them with earthworm (the food they LIKE). Before they would accept the scented pinkies, and even now if they balk and I have to feed earthworms, I sprinkle a little calcium powder for reptiles on the earthworms before feeding.

When I tried feeder goldfish, the garters ignored them and the fish lived several months untouched in the snakes' swimming pool in their cage!

The garters have all managed to fast for weeks at a time and scare me to death with their fasting. The most extreme fast was JC. She didn't eat from the time I got her at the end of May, until August 3rd. On August 2, she had 20 babies, on August 3, she happily pigged out after worrying me all summer with her refusal to eat!