Catch / Keep / Release?

[dashnu]

Whats your take on releasing a WC that you have keep for a year or so? Will it remember its old ways? Is it more likely to become prey?

TIA

[jeanette]

i think they keep their wild instincts even when they have been in captivity for a while, Gaters and other snakes dont ever become completely tame there is always a part of them that remains wild, but that is just my opinion though, others may feel differently.
I dont think its more likely to become prey as the instincts of hiding when birds fly over stay with it, but im not sure if it will be less frightened of human contact, and we all know that some humans out there are very cruel.

[adamanteus]

If the snake has been kept in isolation from all other captive snakes, it should be safe enough, from an environmental point of view...... you never know what they can pick up from each other.
I doubt that a reriod of captivity would much effect it's ability to cope in the wild, except perhaps that it might not fear man enough.

[Stefan-A]

I probably shouldn't give my two cents on this issue, but I don't recommend taking WC or releasing it or its offspring. The main reason is that it may spread diseases to the wild population. But now that you mention it, it probably would be more likely to become prey, once it has gotten used to the safety of the terrarium. Foreign diseases are a bigger concern though, since it affects more than just that one snake.

There are also other potential risks, including the snake "getting lost", which I understand is something that has been documented in relocated snakes here in this country. Apparently they follow a particular circular route every year, from the den to where they spend the summer and they eventually end up back at the same den in the autumn. I actually read through an article on the subject a couple of weeks ago, although I didn't have the chance to copy it. I understand garters behave in much the same way. Anyway, relocated snakes appear to have problems figuring out where the hell they are. Of course it's a bigger problem here, since good dens are further apart.

[adamanteus]

There are also other potential risks, including the snake "getting lost", which I understand is something that has been documented in relocated snakes here in this country. Apparently they follow a particular circular route every year, from the den to where they spend the summer and they eventually end up back at the same den in the autumn. I actually read through an article on the subject a couple of weeks ago, although I didn't have the chance to copy it. I understand garters behave in much the same way. Anyway, relocated snakes appear to have problems figuring out where the hell they are. Of course it's a bigger problem here, since good dens are further apart.

That's fascinating, Stefan. Do you think you could find that article again, and post it for us?

[dashnu]

Very interesting, I have not decided what I wanted to do yet so I figured I would come here for thoughts.... I do not in anyway want to cause problems in the wild.. My first thoughts were actually the total flip.. I figured taking them in as babies (or young) chunk them up a bit then free them would give them a better chance of survival and my hope was to populate my area a bit more :)

[Stefan-A]

That's fascinating, Stefan. Do you think you could find that article again, and post it for us?
I think I definitely gave the wrong impression, the article was on the migration patterns, not on the snakes getting lost. :o I found it in a zoological station's library during our field course a couple of weeks ago. No, the thing about snakes getting lost was "just" something that I've heard from a biologist that is critical of the relocation of adders that are encountered near human habitation. To paraphrase him, it's as good as killing them.

They had a few very interesting articles on reptiles there, but unfortunately my school doesn't have access to the online versions and I couldn't copy them while I was there. I managed to memorize a few details, though: In one population of grass snakes, rodents made up 25%(!) of their diet. :)

[dashnu]

And btw, I was thinking about releasing them to take in two other babies me and the girls found... They of course like the small cute little babies better now and I dont have the money to invest in any more enclosures atm.. lol

[Zephyr]

And btw, I was thinking about releasing them to take in two other babies me and the girls found... They of course like the small cute little babies better now and I dont have the money to invest in any more enclosures atm.. lolTry sterilite bins. Sturdy and affordable.

[drache]

No, the thing about snakes getting lost was "just" something that I've heard from a biologist that is critical of the relocation of adders that are encountered near human habitation. To paraphrase him, it's as good as killing them.
in a documentary I saw where they were relocating gila monsters away from human habitations, the rescue people were saying that the gila monster's ability to survive decreases drastically the further they're removed from their original location, even if it is identical territory
they were saying that as much as a half a mile could be a death sentence

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

My concern is definitely for the snake. Although, I do occasionally catch and keep WC's, I never release animals once they have been in my keeping for over a month; this is my quarantine period - newcomers do not come in contact with my collection. I usually make my decision to keep or release within 2 weeks of the catch. I figure if it hasn't eaten yet (and I have had new WC's eat the second day!), it's not going to eat what I feed it, or it just won't eat in captivity.

If you are releasing some acclimated WC's just so you can acquire a couple of new babies (because they are cute when they are little), I totally frown on that! Hope I haven't misunderstood.

I have a small WC population of snakes: Northwestern Ring-necked, Sharp-tailed, Oregon Garter, Coast Garter, San Diego Gopher, and a CA King. In all my keeping of WC's, I have had only one refuse to eat - it starved to death (I tried everything!), and I have had to release perhaps 3 or 4 simply due to eating problems. I currently have a Night Snake, which I fear may also starve.

I am learning my lesson the hard way. Don't mess with animals that are known for being difficult! ...or from San Diego (over 757 miles away!)
Please know that I am wallowing in regret with the catch of my Night Snake.

I should also mention that even if a snake has only been captive a month, it may still have difficulty bouncing back into the wild. Stress alone can interfere with immunities. And who knows who's moved in while the snake was away. A few competing snakes may have encroached on its previous hunting grounds - assuming release is to same locale where found. If the animal is released in a different locality, forget any good chances of survival. A lot of releases lose out to more vigorous competition (no "easy street" terrarium vacation!). This is the same tragedy that befalls all those well-intended rattlesnake relocations. Survival statistics for these poor fellows are very sad indeed.

Anyways, that's my sermon!

All the luck!

Steven

[EdgyExoticReptiles]

iris ones are a little more exspensive but are 2x stronger

Try sterilite bins. Sturdy and affordable.

[Loren]

Steven- what have you tried to feed the night snake?
I have had success with small fence lizards and small pacific treefrogs. I actually feed them as frozen/thawed.
I leave them in the cage overnight along the perimeter, and they almost always are gone in the morning.
Night snakes can swallow fairly large meals too, so its ok if the meals are on the big side. They make it fit.

[dashnu]

If you are releasing some acclimated WC's just so you can acquire a couple of new babies (because they are cute when they are little), I totally frown on that! Hope I haven't misunderstood.


Yea, understood. I am a sucker when it comes to my two little daughters :p. Truth be told this is how I got into the hobby. I fully agree and looking at the situation this is the _wrong_ reason to let them back.

Thanks for all the feedback everyone.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Steven- what have you tried to feed the night snake?
I have had success with small fence lizards and small pacific treefrogs. I actually feed them as frozen/thawed.
I leave them in the cage overnight along the perimeter, and they almost always are gone in the morning.
Night snakes can swallow fairly large meals too, so its ok if the meals are on the big side. They make it fit.

So you feed them prekilled? MY Hypsiglena is probably just intimidated by anything that moves. I have tried a live TINY fence lizard, alligator lizard, anole, long-tailed grass lizard, and slender salamander (all babies); today I caught a baby skink - I am currently anticipating... I'll try freezing something next. Maybe since they are night-feeders, being adapted to slightly cooler temps, they prefer incapacitated food (as inperhaps too clammy to move?); then they give it a mildly toxic salivary chew and down the hatch?!

Will see what happens...Thanks

[Loren]

So you feed them prekilled?

Yes, thats actually been my standard for lizards and frogs for a few years now, mostly for the reason of hoping to avoid internal and external parasite issues. Not sure if I have really even tried live with them, but I have had them for a couple years. I just really hate putting live wc anything in with a long term captive.
Also, Mine both came from central ca, so if yours is from so Cal, maybe his feeding preferences are different.
I have found very few snakes that wont take a frozen/thawed lizard or frog just as easily as a live one.
If using a frog, I mist it and the whole area around it to try to make it stay edible a bit longer.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Sorry, it has been a while since I last checked this thread. My San Diego Night Snake ate a Skilton Skink over a week ago. I am now on the quest for Eumeces! CA Dept. of Fish and Game has a catch allowance of 25 at any one time.

Steven

[ssssnakeluvr]

once you take animals into captivity here in Utah it's illegal to release them back to the wild....

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Illegal releases... The laws are likewise in California! Anytime I take the risk of harboring a W/C, I have to face the possibility that it won't eat. I will admit that on a couple occasions I have released W/C's that were no more than a week in captivity. These were all in quarantine and never had contact with one another or any of my C/B's. Personally, I believe such limits could be stretched up to a month, snakes' stress determining. I don't like to volunteer that info, but being a wildlife major with years of herp experience, there are times were you have to take certain chances in order to study certain species (especially behaviorally). Unfortunately, many amateur herpers will take such risks without any forethought as to the animal's specific needs (habitat, diet, etc). Live observation (of course "in the wild" behavior is always the best!) is the method least harmful to the snake if you want to learn behaviors and morphology. You must consider the fact that most of the upper division studies done on snake morphologies usually require the specimen to be dead. For instance, one doctorate paper I read which was done on the Pacific Gopher Snake and its subspecies required hundreds of W/C specimens to be destroyed. Of course this led to a very complete realization as to what all was eaten on a regular basis by one or more populations of this species.

Any time man interferes with nature (this includes captive and/or domesticated pets), the results could be seen as detrimental and often are.... This is often a case of picking the lesser of 2 evils; the multiple deaths of one studied species may yield knowledge (that could not have otherwise been learned) that can help preserve this animal's future. Many successful conservation efforts are a direct result of such studies. Sad, but true.

I currently have 11 native species (all within legal bag limits). I am happy to say they are all feeding. This perhaps puts a chip on my shoulder (LOL!), especially since a few of them rank among the "small, fussy, and difficult to keep".

I believe some of the states with the stricter laws to be in order; the critters need all the protection they can get. I t is too bad that some states policies however incite hypocracy. No take (ZERO!) policies on all herps in certain states often overlook the animals that are constantly being wiped out by development. For every snake that has fallen victim to a bulldozer (happens all the time!), that animal technically could have become someone's pet, or for that matter, become part of a conservation breeding plan...

The controversies never end... Maybe when humans are gone...

Steven

[count dewclaw]

No take (ZERO!) policies on all herps in certain states often overlook the animals that are constantly being wiped out by development. For every snake that has fallen victim to a bulldozer (happens all the time!), that animal technically could have become someone's pet, or for that matter, become part of a conservation breeding plan...
Steven

Or how about the ones that are DOR or hit by lawnmowers? We usually get 2-3 garters with the lawnmower each year. :(

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Yeah, there's lots of ways for them to bite the dust at the hands of man!

My only sighting of a California Mountain Kingsnake (a species I have been looking for in the wild for years) was a roadkill in Siskiyou County (CA). :(

[jitami]

Steven, mountain's the one with Red, right? Awww, geez, now I have to go look something up... but if it's the subspecies I think it is I may have a road trip for you! Then again, that whole area is on fire along with the rest of the state, so who knows?

[jitami]

Ok, California Herps is saying that they don't recognize any subspecies of Lampropeltis zonata. Do you? Going on the assumption that the California Mountain Kingsnake is the only species in Northern California with red. There used to be a very healthy population in the Las Padres National Forest along the Arroyo Seco River. I've seen dozens there as a kid. Now, I really have no idea if that's truly the only kingsnake in Ca with red coloring, so this may info may be totally useless! Sorry if so! I was so surprised when we moved to the Sacramento area and all the kings were grey/white or black/white with an odd amount of creamy yellow every once in awhile. I had only seen the classic rings of the red/white/black version before and was a bit disappointed in the local kings :rolleyes:

Now can we all say together, "Red touches Yellow-kills a fellow, Red touches Black-friend of Jack" :) Learned at a very young age while seeing an abundance of beautiful kings :)

[Spiritwolf]

I have read that the life of a garter in the wild is on the average only between one and three years. And think of all the people that kill a snake on sight simply because it happens to be a snake.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Hey Tami,

In the wonderful world of CA Mtn Kings there are a total of 7 subspecies with 5 in CA. CaliforniaHerps mentions these specifically under the alternate names links: L. z. zonata (St Helena), L. z. multicincta (Sierra), L. z. multifasciata (Coast), L. z. pulchra (San Diego), and L. z. parvirubra (San Bernardino). Range maps and some great photos (check out the Sierra eating a rattler!) are given.

Please don't be too disappointed with the kings without reds. These are California Kingsnakes (Lampropeltis getulus californicas), subspecies of the Common Kingsnake. These are more prevalent throughout the state than the CA Mtn King and come in varying bands, stripes, or aberrant patterns of black and white, brown and yellow, or somewhere inbetween. Black and white (anerythristic) variants of the CA Mtn King do exist, but they are very rare!

Lucky for us, coral snakes ("red and yellow kill a fellow") do not live in California.

Steve

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Red touches Black-friend of Jack"

I always heard "red and black, venom lack"

[Loren]

Well, you made me run out and snap a new pic of mine. :)
It was given to me over 5 years ago through word of mouth- someone looking for an experienced home for one. No idea of its history before that, as I didnt actually know the people. I did the band counts and all that years ago, and I believe I decided it was likely the sierra subspecies.

It (she?) is an absolutely wonderful snake.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/california_mountain_kingsnake.jpg

[jitami]

Hey Tami,

In the wonderful world of CA Mtn Kings there are a total of 7 subspecies with 5 in CA. CaliforniaHerps mentions these specifically under the alternate names links: L. z. zonata (St Helena), L. z. multicincta (Sierra), L. z. multifasciata (Coast), L. z. pulchra (San Diego), and L. z. parvirubra (San Bernardino). Range maps and some great photos (check out the Sierra eating a rattler!) are given.

Please don't be too disappointed with the kings without reds. These are California Kingsnakes (Lampropeltis getulus californicas), subspecies of the Common Kingsnake. These are more prevalent throughout the state than the CA Mtn King and come in varying bands, stripes, or aberrant patterns of black and white, brown and yellow, or somewhere in between. Black and white (anerythristic) variants of the CA Mtn King do exist, but they are very rare!

Lucky for us, coral snakes ("red and yellow kill a fellow") do not live in California.

Steve

Sorry, I was wrong, it's the SSAR that doesn't recognize the subspecies. Quoted from Californiaherps "Currently, the SSAR (http://www.californiaherps.com/info/footnotes.html) does not recognize this or any subspecies of Lampropeltis zonata - California Mountain Kingsnake (http://www.californiaherps.com/snakes/pages/l.zonata.html)."

I did see the picture of the Sierra eating the rattler. Awesome picture!

I did know that we don't have coral snakes here, but that little rhyme was pounded into my head somewhere along the way :) Yours is equally effective and probably easier to remember. I'm a preschool teacher, so I find all the little quips we use to teach life lessons interesting :)

Quick googling of Arroyo Seco produced unsatisfactory results, but the area we spent a lot of time in when I was younger is in the Monterey Ranger District of the Los Padres National Forest. Our family owned a cabin on the way into the Arroyo Seco campground. Kind of rough and tumble crowd occasionally, but quiet and beautiful during the week and/or further up the gorge(Ventana Wilderness area). King City was the nearest city, to the east, along hi way 101. I'm sure there's been a fair amount of development since then, but the actual river/gorge area is hopefully intact and thriving? I would say, with just mild hiking, still near developed campgrounds, buildings, etc. we would see several a week.

By looking at the Californiaherps range maps they were likely L. z. multifasciata or the Coast Mountain Kingsnake. Arroyo Seco is in, possibly on the eastern edge, of that little bubble just under the SF Bay on their range map with possible intergrades inland, so we could have seen a bit of both.

Anyway, thanks for the trip down memory lane & hope you soon get to see your first Cal Mountain King live & in person soon! Oh, and I'm not terribly disappointed in the local kings, but was very surprised when I'd been raised *knowing* a kingsnake was red, black, and white :)

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Years back I was surprised to see them come with red!!!

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Update! Besides the one young Skilton Skink I fed my Night Snake a while back (Skink pickins have been bad), I have now had success with (Oh No!) baby corn snakes. Please understand, I would normally have an issue with feeding snakes to snakes, but these corns were all born with numerous vertebral kinks. Soooo.... It seems my Hypsiglena (whom I will name "Hypsi") doesn't have to go hungry for weeks on end. On the other hand I can't say much for the outcome of one of this year's corn clutches.... Guess it was meant to be...

Steve


Steven- what have you tried to feed the night snake?
I have had success with small fence lizards and small pacific treefrogs. I actually feed them as frozen/thawed.
I leave them in the cage overnight along the perimeter, and they almost always are gone in the morning.
Night snakes can swallow fairly large meals too, so its ok if the meals are on the big side. They make it fit.

[Loren]

Wow Steven, I knew night snakes could eat big meals, but that must be a decent size night snake to eat a baby corn!
Cool deal though, at least he's eating.

I actually have a night snake taking non-scented thawed pinkies from my hand now. I'm pretty happy about that. I think this ones gonna get big (for a night snake).