shoot...

[garterchick]

well, i messed up!

some time ago i allowed my red-sided male access to my flame female, not expecting anything to come of it because of the time of year. it was a "marriage of convenience", neither of them had a mate (red-sided female died) and i re-arranged tanks to make some space. so, to make a long story short: i went out of town last weekend and when i returned i found 16 "flame-sided" babies. they are the cutest little buggers, some of them look like regular red-sided's and some are much redder. i know it's not the right thing to do and i really didn't think it would come to this, but here they are. i don't know yet what i'll do with them but i'm quite sure they won't become "freezer pets". i'll post a picture as soon as i can.

[adamanteus]

Stuff happens, Tina. As long as you home them with people who know what they are, and who you can trust not to breed them on, no harm done I guess.
Rather too many to keep them all yourself!:rolleyes:

[Stefan-A]

I would otherwise agree with James' recommendation, but there's always a risk that they will be passed on to people who don't understand that they shouldn't be bred to anything else. Even in your case it happened by accident, who's to say it won't happen again?

As harsh as it sounds, the second safest alternative to freezing, is to pass them on to someone who owns a kingsnake or a pacman frog.

[garterchick]

no way, i can't do that. i made the mistake, the snakes should't have to pay for it.

[jeanette]

Awww Tina, congrats on your unexpected clutch. i know you were'nt expecting them and its a shock to find you have a mixed breed clutch, your safest bet is to find them loving homes where there is no intention of using them for breeding. if you were in the uk i would gladly offer to take 2 same sex snakes from you and home them for their entire lives. good luck finding them homes :)
(and if you were here to hand me a couple of cute babies, i promise i wouldnt feed them to my pacman or pyxie frog ) :D

[adamanteus]

In truth, I'm with Stefan on this... but I know very few of us have the heart to do it. Better to sacrifice a few than a whole gene pool. I would feed or freeze.

[Zephyr]

Well, let's see them already! :P
Besides, they're just intergrades.

[Stefan-A]

no way, i can't do that. i made the mistake, the snakes should't have to pay for it.
It's not a punishment. But if you absolutely want to look at it that way, then consider it a punishment that will prevent problems in the future.

[Josh]

Freezer I think because If one of thoses ankes get away from your house it can really mess stuff up.

[Snake lover 3-25]

i think that if you gave them all to people who promised not to feed, freeze or breed they would be ok esp if you got it in writing!!!:D:D:p:D congrats on the unexpected litter!!!!:D:D

[adamanteus]

if you gave them all to people who promised not to breed they would be ok

People lie. It's hard, because we are Garter enthusiasts, but some people out there are mouse enthusiasts and would read our forum with horror!
King Snakes need a varied diet too, so do 'Pac Man' frogs... it's the better, safer, more sensible option. Otherwise, one day, all garters will be the same, cross-bred, coffee coloured, bland......

[Snake lover 3-25]

:(:(:( i would just NEVER have the heart to do it i guess.......... but maybe that's because i've only ever had a few and............. ................:(:(:(

[adamanteus]

Like I say, it's hard. But if we, as Thamnophis.com, don't endeavour to keep things pure, who will?
There are people 'out there' doing this kind of thing deliberately.

[Stefan-A]

Indeed. Even worse is when people do it unknowingly and just pass them on as just "garter snakes". And then one of us comes along and thinks he or she can ID it.. It wouldn't matter so much if people didn't care what kind of garters they keep, but many of us do.

I just don't trust people enough to believe that they can be trusted to keep hybrids separate from the rest. Especially garters, since they seem to be especially difficult to identify as hybrids. Jungle corns are easy by comparison.

[adamanteus]

Stefan is right. Mistakes carry consequences, no matter how difficult that may be. We have a responsibility to rectify our mistakes. Trusting it will just go away isn't the way to go.

[jeanette]

what your looking for is someone who enjoys the snakes but really isnt intending to breed them, im not really interested in breeding as a whole, having seen other snakes breed frogs breed lizards breed etc etc............ Garters are ive noticed quite interesting breeders so i have a pair that i hope to eventually get one clutch from, and that will be the end of my garter breeding fascination.
i agree that you will have to be careful who you rehome these snakes to, but with such a large SERIOUS garter community it shouldnt be too hard to find people that will home them and ensure that they are not bred on.

[garterchick]

ok, here they are

[adamanteus]

what your looking for is someone who enjoys the snakes but really isnt intending to breed them.

That's fine... but five years down the line, when they've 'advanced' to Creamsicle Corns etc. They would just pass the Garters on to someone else who doesn't give a damn. That's what happens, and all the good intentions in the World won't change it.:(

[Snake lover 3-25]

:(:(:(:(:(:( :-(

[Zephyr]

Wow, those are actually pretty.

[Snake lover 3-25]

so if you got one that you could NOT kill for one reason or another would YOU breed it or sell it???????

[jeanette]

so if you got one that you could NOT kill for one reason or another would YOU breed it or sell it???????
I'd definately keep it, they are really pretty and im a sucker for the unfortunates and i wouldnt breed it, but it would be assured a home for the rest of its life.

[Snake lover 3-25]

well there you go!!!!! one home for at LEAST 15 or more of the babies!!!!!!:D:D:D:p:p:p

[jeanette]

well there you go!!!!! one home for at LEAST 15 or more of the babies!!!!!!:D:D:p:p
lol i'd take a same sex pair :)

[adamanteus]

so if you got one that you could NOT kill for one reason or another would YOU breed it or sell it???????

I don't fully understand the question, Shanley. There is NO WAY these should be either sold or bred. Why can't I kill it?

If this ever happened to me (and it could). I would be totally 'gutted', but I would freeze the resulting offspring straight away.

[Snake lover 3-25]

:(:(:( the question was what you would do if you COULD NOT............... :(:(:(

[Stefan-A]

so if you got one that you could NOT kill for one reason or another would YOU breed it or sell it???????
I'd have somebody else kill it.

[adamanteus]

If I could not, I would have to keep it in isolation for the rest of it's life... but that would be difficult. I can't see any circumstance in which I could not freeze or feed it.

[gregmonsta]

They're gorgeous tho :D

[jeanette]

They're gorgeous tho :D
If you could, would you take one and keep it (for non breeding of course) for the rest of its life?

[gregmonsta]

Hell yeah :) ... wouldn't enter a breeding tank but I'm sure there would be space for one in one of the planned same sex enclosures :D

[Snake lover 3-25]

ha!!!!! two takers!!!!!!!:D:D:D:p:p:p

[GartersRock]

Hey! Give em to me. I am an HOUR away. An avid "garter obsess" who won't "move on" to corns, breed them and taint lines, feed them off, freeze them etc. Just keep them all isolated for their gorgeous little lives. I have plenty of room and time and they are beautiful!
I PM'd you. =D
Amanda, who would love to take them off your hands. lol!

[Zephyr]

LOL
Wow, how awesome. :P

[Odie]

Just talked to my wife, we got room for 2 if needed :cool:

[Stefan-A]

Don't forget to sex them.

[Lumpy]

Freezer I think because If one of thoses ankes get away from your house it can really mess stuff up.

Just to play the devil's advocate, for those of you who own garters not found in your neck of the woods and are of pure genetics let's say. If they were to escape, the same potential exists if they were to meet up with local Garders that would otherwise never cross paths, correct?

Puget Sounds aren't native to Michigan, although I'd love to have one. And I'm sure there are some residing in home collections in this state. If an escape artist found his/her way into the great outdoors, Hmmmm.

I'm all for keeping things pure, but I'm with Shanley on this. I don't think destroying them is the answer. Certainly not for people who love and want to protect their pets. I'm not being critical towards anyone who'd put them down. But for some, that's not a viable sollution.

Lump

[Snaky]

I'm also for the option to keep the lines pure. I would raise the a little and then give them to my kingsnake or a friend with a kingsnake. In that way, the still served a purpose.

That said, I think this is not an easy thing to do for all people. So I understand that others might have problems with these decisions.

[Lumpy]

A few things to take away from all this:

First, keep unwanted breeding in check, no matter how limited the potential. Murphy's Law is universal.

Secondly, I'm to assume that your local pet store isn't going to give you a cert like AKC, CFA, blah blah blah for bloodline on a Garter purchase. So buyer beware. Sticking to WC or a reputable, trusted breeder is best practice.

Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, Tina was forthright and honest about her mistake. Kudos to her! So, let's reward that by trying to help her find a sollution she can live with.

Lump

[adamanteus]

Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, Shanley was forthright and honest about her mistake. Kudos to her!

Absolutely... but this is Tina's thread... not Shanley's.:)

[Lumpy]

Opps, my bad.

Lump

[Stefan-A]

Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, Tina was forthright and honest about her mistake. Kudos to her!
Absolutely. If I had a hat, I'd tip it. :)

[drache]

so sorry this had to happen to you
I'm sort of on the fence about the matter of euthanasia
and it's too bad spay/neuter is not an option with these little guys (I wonder)
I would like to have one myself and I know that there are not breeding accidents at my house, but what if something happens to me and someone else ends up with my snakes?
there are never any guarantees, but there are likelyhoods
just like I do believe that my escaped concinnus last year never made it far enough to encounter any native populations, but there's always the remote possibility that I'm wrong about that, despite the raccoons and the feral cats and the red-tail hawks and the cars and the fact that there hasn't been any evidence of a native population anywhere near here in years
oh, I don't know . . .

[MayorOgden]

I'll take 1, or 2 of the same sex! How much would it cost to ship these little guys? I absolutely DO NOT intend on breeding any snakes! Let me know! I'd be happy to have an addition to the family.

[jeanette]

yaaaaaaay This is what i think is great about a Garter Forum community..........
You all see the problem and then see how to fix it. So many kind people offering to rehome otherwise doomed Garters. Its great to see the kindness people can have for the unfortunates :)

[garterchick]

i agree, and i appreciate all the kind offers. i will feed the little buggers a few times (have to find feeder guppys 'cause rosies are too big for them) and then i'll start to divvy up the brood. i'm pretty sure there are enough for everyone who's interested. i won't charge anything but the "buyer" will be responsible for shipping. i'm also open to a trade if you have something i'm interested in.

[Snake lover 3-25]

SEEEE i told you guys that they WOULD find GOOD homes where they would NOT be harmed!!!!!!!!:D:D:D:p

[Stefan-A]

If you don't mind, I'll save my enthusiasm until the last one has died from old age without producing any offspring. :rolleyes: That may take a decade and a half, though.

[jeanette]

SEEEE i told you guys that they WOULD find GOOD homes where they would NOT be harmed!!!!!!!!:D:D:D:p
High five :)

[Snake lover 3-25]

High five!:)

[lestat]

I agree with some of the coments. You have to be more carefull in the future about keeping males and females together of different speices but things happen and keeping 2 snakes together is better for both of them. As for freezing or feeding that is down to the indiviual. I couldnt bring my self to do it. Good luck with them and as i have said on another thread it's not the babies fault for what they are. Snakes need our love and attention if kept in captivity.

[Stefan-A]

keeping 2 snakes together is better for both of them.
Is it? :rolleyes:

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

for thamnophis, I would say yes. They seem to actually seek one another out. For 99% of other snake species, no. Solitary life is best, except for breeding.

[Stefan-A]

You'd need to know the reason why they do it to be able to claim that it's better for them. Or at the very least there should be some indicator that they benefit from it.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

I have to agree with Stefan-A on this controversy. I just tapped into and followed through with this thread, and I have to say the enthusiasm expressed by those willing to adopt the intergrades, though admirable, sends shudders through my spine. I am not trying to be depressing, nor insulting, but somewhere along the way, there will always be an individual who can not be trusted, a pet owner who drops the ball. For the captive breeding populations, a few intergrades accidentally let loose into the breeding arena will certainly cause genetic muddling. Should the intergrade get loose (esp. sirtalis with its races spanning North America!), its influence will contaminate the local gene pool and may completely skew its integrity. As a wildlife biology major studying local population lineages, I would be pretty ticked off if I actually engaged in mitochondrial DNA analysis, only to find out that some pet owner/breeder let some un-natural mutts loose. There goes my thesis! And then no one gets to learn how all the Thamnophis species are connected (via an ancestral common ancestor), because it's all messed up.

I am positive that hybrids and of course intergrades occur naturally in the wild. The key word is "natural", as in such crosses are a result of overlapping ranges. It is especially important to understand that the different characteristics of the different species and subspecies are often indicative of the type of environment to which they have adapted. Changing the pattern and colors (and yes, behavior too - possibly too subtle for us to notice) can affect local population survival rates as well.

I love frogs. Huh? But our local herp society is planning massive frogicide for the American Bullfrog. Why kill? This invasive species from the East is wiping out our local baby garters, baby western pond turtles, and our smaller frog species! Greater good!

Please don't let our human emotions (so often expressed in an anthropomorphized manner to our pets) interfere what is right for the bigger picture. Professional environmentalists are constantly making devastating mistakes with their good intentions... So what kind of common sense does the average pet owner have?

Sorry; it's late; I'm rambling again. I hope you make the right decision.

Steven Krause

[adamanteus]

Yeah, everything Steven just said. As I said right back at the beginning of this thread..... 'better to freeze or feed'.

[SpyrotheGartersnake]

i could provide a home for two of them luckly i have a 38 gallon tank left after spyro died....:(. but besides that my knigsnake doesn't like eating snakes i tried giving a brown snake that was close to dieing but he refused to eat it. so no worries:D and i won't breed them because i know how to stop them from breeding instead of hibernating them try to keep them awake by keeping the tempature around 78 or 75 degrees works for mine if i don't want to breed them:)

[Stefan-A]

i won't breed them because i know how to stop them from breeding instead of hibernating them try to keep them awake by keeping the tempature around 78 or 75 degrees works for mine if i don't want to breed them:)
No, you can't stop garters from breeding by keeping them at normal temperatures.

[adamanteus]

Many times I've had Garters breed without hibernating them. Sometimes more than once in a year!

[drache]

no worries:D and i won't breed them because i know how to stop them from breeding instead of hibernating them try to keep them awake by keeping the tempature around 78 or 75 degrees works for mine if i don't want to breed them:)
that belief will make you the pet owner who dropped the ball and went on to perpetuate the problem
clearly - snakes who are not meant to breed should never be housed with snakes of the other sex - period

[Stefan-A]

Many times I've had Garters breed without hibernating them. Sometimes more than once in a year!
Mine, for example. They mated anyway, haven't seen any offspring.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

As I continue to read on, I clearly see that ignorance is bliss. I do not mean to be rude, but it seems there are some people who post questions for advice, but only really respond to the answers they wanted to hear in the first place.
The ethical and moral solution to this problem, however unfortunate, is to put these intergrades down. Any other decision leaves the future integrity of captive and wild genetic lines at risk.

So, all of you who are ready to adopt with your promises not to breed or release, you compassion is misplaced in this particular case. We are all only human; and even the most good-natured souls will make mistakes (as we have already heard... Sorry Tina).

Honestly,

Steven
HumboldtHerps.com - Index (http://www.HumboldtHerps.com)

[Stefan-A]

Well said, Steven.

[jeanette]

I disagree, Too me it would be a case of every crossbreed in the world being destroyed. Every mongrel dog every non purebred cat. how about every mixed race person. im sorry if that goes against the people who believe that the pure bred things are the way to go..............Garter keeping is not a Nazi occupation to be concerned with all thats pure.

[gregmonsta]

I'd have to aggree with that. In fact lets annihilate all livestock as it wouldn't exist in its current variety without selective human interferance.

[mycolorfulheart]

Wasn't the point brought up earlier that any garter that's let loose in a non-native environment could cause damage? Not just these garters? Garters aren't even found naturally in Europe, but we are all trusting the European members to keep their snakes and not release them into the wild. (Alien species can sometimes destroy an environment, and all it needs start with is 2 snakes.) It's the same situation here. I can understand why someone would want to freeze/feed them instead of taking a chance and trusting another member. But we've all taken the responsibility as pet owners to do what's right by our animals and the local pop--these just come with special instructions: Don't breed!

[jeanette]

Wasn't the point brought up earlier that any garter that's let loose in a non-native environment could cause damage? Not just these garters? Garters aren't even found naturally in Europe, but we are all trusting the European members to keep their snakes and not release them into the wild. (Alien species can sometimes destroy an environment, and all it needs start with is 2 snakes.) It's the same situation here. I can understand why someone would want to freeze/feed them instead of taking a chance and trusting another member. But we've all taken the responsibility as pet owners to do what's right by our animals and the local pop--these just come with special instructions: Don't breed!
100 percent correct and any sensible owner can concur with those rules

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Whoah! I think some of us are missing the point. I am not at all criticizing the natural mixing of gene pools; but the key word is "natural". I am also completely aware of how man has manipulated gene pools (animal & plant) within the domesticated arena for over the last (let's say) 6,000 years (at least). I personally love mongrels; they are intelligent and usu. genetically healthier. I think mixed race humans are some of the most beautiful people on Earth. Oh, let's not forget that humans were the ones who started selectively breeding the different races of dogs (and other animals). Please remember, the known subspecies of the sirtalis complex are all naturally occurring (not selectively bred... and let' please not start!)

One could argue that: humans have been messing things up from day one!
But that does not present solutions for the present. I sympathize with all animals' plights, esp. where they occur by the hands of Homo sapiens. Every situation is different. In nature, the effects of our intereference (whether we think we are doing good or we are just there to rape the land...) are often unpredictable, because there are SO MANY variables and intertwined relationships.

Specifically in the case of these garter intergrades (and they are so pretty, who wouldn't want them!)- Two unbordered subspecies have reintegrated their unique genetics and have muddled the line. If they escape or are captively bred, the tainting will spread.
The moral question is "Do we let compassion risk contamination?" This isn't about pure races. This is a two-fold argument. This is (1) about crosses that would not naturally occur in nature, and (2) more to the point, can you trust your fellow man?

Please note, that if every human could be kept at his or her word, I would not have a problem with anyone adopting these snakes! I have not shook hands with any correspondants from this forum... In reality, I do not know who any of you are. It is beautiful that we can all share here. But trust..... TRUST HAS TO BE EARNED.

[adamanteus]

This worries me.
I can see the fate of the likes of tetrateania... you know... that dull, coffee coloured snake that used to live in San Fran.
Look at the Scottish Wild Cat... irredeemably close to extinction now. Why? Habitat destruction? No. Persecution? No. Over collecting? No.
Inbreeding with a massive population of feral cats? Correct. Wild Cats are now just a bunch of moggies. The original Wild Cat will never come back, we've (almost) lost it through careless/accidental inbreeding.
If nature chooses to cross-breed species, that's fine. But we, as 'responsible' keepers must avoid it. If we make a mistake we must take action to remedy it. If we adopt this 'anything goes' attitude, just because babies are cute, a hundred years from now all Garters will be brown, with some checkered markings if you're lucky.
This has nothing at all to do with racism, or political correctness. It is our duty NOT TO INTERFERE with natures choices.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

This worries me.
I can see the fate of the likes of tetrateania... you know... that dull, coffee coloured snake that used to live in San Fran.
Look at the Scottish Wild Cat... irredeemably close to extinction now. Why? Habitat destruction? No. Persecution? No. Over collecting? No.
Inbreeding with a massive population of feral cats? Correct. Wild Cats are now just a bunch of moggies. The original Wild Cat will never come back, we've (almost) lost it through careless/accidental inbreeding.
If nature chooses to cross-breed species, that's fine. But we, as 'responsible' keepers must avoid it. If we make a mistake we must take action to remedy it. If we adopt this 'anything goes' attitude, just because babies are cute, a hundred years from now all Garters will be brown, with some checkered markings if you're lucky.
This has nothing at all to do with racism, or political correctness. It is our duty NOT TO INTERFERE with natures choices. I wholeheartedly concur!

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

What about striking T. s. infernalis? As you leave Humboldt County going south, you get specimens with brighter red heads. South of the Klamath River (No. Humboldt) you begin to see the effects of an intergrade zone with T. s. fitchi. The older guide books place the limit of fitchi at north of the mouth of the Klamath River and infernalis at south of the mouth of the Klamath. Intergradation has taken a strong hold on the southern side; and fitchi's black head is travelling south. This is NATURE doing its thing. In this case it may be natural for infernalis' bright red heads to eventually be bled over with black pigments further south in the distant future. Once again, it is not for us to decide this course (intentionally or by accident), but this may be the outcome.

[jeanette]

lets pose this one question then........how can we all guarantee that the garters that we buy in pet shops are not in fact those who come from a dirty gene pool?
just becasue they look like a certain breed and act like a certain breed does not mean that they are not a mixed breed that just happens to have reverted to an ancestors looks.
the simple fact here is that we as a human race have persistantly played god with animals gene pool its enviroment and its life.......in every case the animal has paid the price. as previously stated in europe we dont have these garters naturally and if one breeder had a lot escape then you are not only going to get mixed breed garters roaming free, they are going to be roaming free in an alien habitat.
breeding is something everyone thinks they should be able to do with their own rules,
and if accidents happen, the animal suffers. if the litter/clutch doesnt turn out right then its the animal that suffers.
wheres the justice in this? the mixed breed clutch should be rehomed, maybe theres a sanctuary that can take them, maybe you have to hope that SOME people can be trusted, maybe you want toplay god and decide who should live and who should die, but my opinion is these are living creatures and they do deserve a chance

[drache]

Specifically in the case of these garter intergrades (and they are so pretty, who wouldn't want them!)- Two unbordered subspecies have reintegrated their unique genetics and have muddled the line. If they escape or are captively bred, the tainting will spread.
as far as I can see, T.s.sirtalis and T.s.parietalis do have overlapping territories
whether flames occur in that overlapping region, I haven't a clue
but I don't suppose it makes any difference whether they could occur in nature

[gregmonsta]

lets pose this one question then........how can we all guarantee that the garters that we buy in pet shops are not in fact those who come from a dirty gene pool?


I did see plains x checkereds advertised last year. At least someone was either being honest or was bad at identifying the species. Anyway ... what about the effects of the general inbreeding necessary to keep some strains 'pure' (ie. reduced lifespan in some breeding groups of tetratanea or indeed flames as mentioned on another thread)?

[Lumpy]

I understand nature vs. man, but...

To follow that idea to it's purest end, then we shouldn't even own snakes and better to leave them to their "natural" state. Then the possibility of human foul up is 0%.

As I said earlier, how many people right on this board own non-native speices of snakes? Snakes that are not native to their region or country? How are these owners any more/less responsible to not loose their pets and or breed them irresponsibily? Right here on this board a snake has been lost. I hope it's found, and I'm sure the owner is responsible individual, but things happen. If any one of us trades/sells any snake, what guarantee do we have that that animal will be responsibly owned and not bred incorrectly or lost to the wild?

There are no guarantees once "man" has mingled in the natural world.

Just sayin..


Greg

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Thank you all for the last few posts, and I am not even the original poster. Tina? It is good to keep certain "arguments" going, for new light may be shed at every turn. Some may think it odd for a self-acclaimed animal lover like myself to support an act of ophidiacide. I have done it with weak specimens (once emaciated from never having once eaten) that occur with every corn snake brood I have hatched. Those put down would have never made it in the wild (as a comparison only).

I do have to admit that the controversy in itself is NOT unjustified. It is a difficult question. Man has been interfering all along, and ultimately - there are no guarantees that no one else has goofed up, and it is possible that tainted lines are on the market already, perhaps even in the wild. My opinion is that we do not add to the problem. Nature may possibly dilute the accidental incursions one can only hope... but keep it up, and then there's definitely no hope.

I am still of the mind that this is all about trusting humans.

If it is not, and it only about saving something alive (esp. from our own undoing), then I can not take part of this conversation anymore. The logic stops here. I can't argue with blind compassion. It's blind!

In regards to inbreeding: I am a firm believer in regular outcrossing of captive-bred specimens. I can see how that may occasionally be a problem for non-North American keepers of Thamnophis. How often to European keepers get fresh stock?

If I were a Thamnophis breeder, I would reaffirm the stock with sympatric specimen types from different areas; that way you can keep the line consistent without too much inbreeding. If....

Unfortunately, I know too many breeders (in the U.S.) who don't know squat about genetics first of all, so who really knows what they are spitting out; I know countless pet shops here that do not subscribe to all the fish and game laws, and thus there are no official records there either....

To tell you the truth, to heck with it! Man has done way too much damage already. This planet is screwed anyways, DON'T LISTEN! Do what you want. Most people don't listen anyways.....

Tired of making sense,

Steven

P.S. Drache, It helps to know that there may be an intergrade zone between the two; my fault for not researching this further (darn West Coast people!). This alone may mute the whole thread!

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

lets pose this one question then........how can we all guarantee that the garters that we buy in pet shops are not in fact those who come from a dirty gene pool?
just becasue they look like a certain breed and act like a certain breed does not mean that they are not a mixed breed that just happens to have reverted to an ancestors looks.
the simple fact here is that we as a human race have persistantly played god with animals gene pool its enviroment and its life.......in every case the animal has paid the price. as previously stated in europe we dont have these garters naturally and if one breeder had a lot escape then you are not only going to get mixed breed garters roaming free, they are going to be roaming free in an alien habitat.
breeding is something everyone thinks they should be able to do with their own rules,
and if accidents happen, the animal suffers. if the litter/clutch doesnt turn out right then its the animal that suffers.
wheres the justice in this? the mixed breed clutch should be rehomed, maybe theres a sanctuary that can take them, maybe you have to hope that SOME people can be trusted, maybe you want toplay god and decide who should live and who should die, but my opinion is these are living creatures and they do deserve a chance

My key issue with this post is "you have to hope that SOME people can be trusted." Look at the world we live in. You said "SOME." This controversy requires ALL to be trusted. I can hope. I can dream. That won't make it a reality!

[drache]

P.S. Drache, It helps to know that there may be an intergrade zone between the two; my fault for not researching this further (darn West Coast people!). This alone may mute the whole thread!
Steven
I have no idea whether there are intergrades in nature - just that there are overlapping areas of accurrance
my assumption is that, if accidents happen in captivity, it's quite possible that they happen in nature
they are both sirtalis species after all

[gregmonsta]

Just sayin..


Greg

I know mate :D I've been enjoying this thread because it's so full of differing opinions. :p I love to throw tangents in every now and again. Anyway, when it comes down to it I don't ever plan to breed anything other than same subspecies couples (which I hope to mix up with unrelated breeders as and when possible).
:rolleyes: But .... essentially I think those flaming babies are cute as Hell and the colour is so striking. I'd love to have one :o and do believe that there should be no problem keeping it as a stand alone 'look at the flame on this' pet.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Steven
I have no idea whether there are intergrades in nature - just that there are overlapping areas of accurrance
my assumption is that, if accidents happen in captivity, it's quite possible that they happen in nature
they are both sirtalis species after all


Intergrades DO occur, especially in NW California. Hope to see some today. (Huh?)

I'm gone for 4 days in the redwoods camping.

Ciao

[drache]

have a great time

[mycolorfulheart]

I think Steven cut to the heart of the issue when he said that in reality, none of us know each other, and it all comes down to trust. Someone else brought up the idea of a sanctuary taking them in--I know it's a long shot, but it'd be a nice solution to the problem.

But I do believe that keeping animals as pets at all is a complete risk to their gene pool. In essence, we enjoy keeping them so we take the risk of one getting loose and breeding. Also the risk of people breeding hybrids on purpose. It seems very hypocritical to me to hear that those risks are okay, but the risk of trusting other members to not breed isn't okay. If Tina wanted she could research all the former posts of the people offering to take her snakes--see how many snakes we have, whether we already breed, if we take good care of our snakes, etc. It is much easier to trust a dozen members from thamnophis.com than the hoards of people who have access to a pet store garter at any time. If we really want the gene pool to stay pure, we should be lobbying to make garters illegal as pets.

[gregmonsta]

If we really want the gene pool to stay pure, we should be lobbying to make garters illegal as pets.

:rolleyes: ROFL .... NO CHANCE!!! .... I wan't to keep them forever!!!! :D Pets are pets and wild is wild :p

[Lumpy]

Yeah, but here in Garter country, wild often become pets. That's how I got mine.

As a matter of fact, I'm willing to bet that many folks in the states would scratch their heads at seeing a Garter for sale in the pet store. I can hear it now.."Why would I buy a snake I can go catch in my back yard?" Kinda like selling sand to the middle east!

Lump

[Stefan-A]

In essence, we enjoy keeping them so we take the risk of one getting loose and breeding.
Nothing here to breed with and it wouldn't survive the winter anyway.

[jeanette]

well this thread turned out to be controversial lol.
ok lets take it down to the bare essentials...............
who breeds? do they breed for a hobby or will it just be a one off?
who doesnt breed? do they just like garters for the joy of keeping them?
what it comes down to is that more often than not it tends to be a breeders issue on keeping the lines pure and euthanising the mixedbloods.
however the ones that just tend to keep garters for the pure joy of the hobby are more tolerant of the unfortunates. It isnt always a fact in either case but it tends to be the norm.
What has happened, was a mistake and we have already had some offers to rehome some of the intergrades. those offers, im sure are greatly valued. It really is a shame that there is no general sterilising of snakes like there is with dogs and cats. otherwise this discussion wouldnt really be happening.
To freeze or not to freeze?
Im saying give them a chance.........maybe do some research on wether or not these intergrades HAVE actually occured in nature, look into giving them to a sanctuary or an educational facility. Take the plunge with people that are part of the garter community and have no desire to breed.
I really couldnt kill them off, i have too much of a heart. i keep thinking how fantastic they would look in a single sex viv with maybe 4 of them slithering around.
They are beautiful.

[Stefan-A]

This is a really ugly post from me, Jeanette, hope you don't take it personally, because that's not my intention. I'm just making my opinion known, nothing more. I had to chop your text, but it was the only way to comment on so many points.


Im saying give them a chance.........
Don't give them a chance. They can do far more damage alive than dead.


maybe do some research on wether or not these intergrades HAVE actually occured in nature,I don't think it matters whether or not intergrades occur in the wild. Intergrades will only interfere with people's hobby and many people do put considerable amounts of money and effort into their hobby and their breeding programs. A single hybrid is enough to ruin it for the person and for those that have bought snakes from him.


look into giving them to a sanctuary or an educational facility.Do not give them to a sanctuary or educational facility, you might as well give them to any random person and tell them to breed the hell out of them. They can't be trusted with hybrids.


Take the plunge with people that are part of the garter community and have no desire to breed. Accidents happen and minds change. Suppose somebody loses interest in garters or can't keep them for some other reason. What then? You're going to be hard pressed to find somebody who'll accept the hybrids and still care about keeping them from breeding. You may very well end up in a situation, where only less-than-serious individuals will be willing to take them off your hands.


I really couldnt kill them off, i have too much of a heart.In this case, heart is not enough.


i keep thinking how fantastic they would look in a single sex viv with maybe 4 of them slithering around.
They are beautiful.Depends on how you look at it. They can be beautiful, but also ugly because of what they represent. And suppose they were incorrectly sexed? That happens all the time.

[el lobo]

I am sure you can find someone who has a king cobra to feed :)

[jeanette]

i understand your points stefan and take no offence.
If these particular intergrades occur in the wild, and people are routinely catching them to keep as pets or maybe to refresh their own breeding stock, they may have already been identified wrongly and these mixed genes are most likely already in the captive bred market. James said earlier that exsisting mixed genes may eventually be bred out, genetics dont work that way and you get your throw backs.
Not all sanctuarys are unreliable, infact there is a private run sanctuary near me who take in all kinds of misfits and they have a home away from the breeding market for the entirety of their lives. I think heart is all some creatures can hope from, from the human race, we have messed them up destroyed so much of their habitat and now it looks like humans are the ones that can decide who lives and dies-That is NOT natural selection.
They are not ugly life is a beautiful thing and they would make a display to be proud of, but i guess thats just my opinion

[Stefan-A]

now it looks like humans are the ones that can decide who lives and dies-That is NOT natural selection.
Actually, it is natural selection. How we should select, is always debatable. But we can't really escape the fact that we do play a role in natural selection in the same way as any other organism.


They are not ugly life is a beautiful thing and they would make a display to be proud of, but i guess thats just my opinionIt's a matter of opinion. To give my own, life is rarely beautiful and this part of it definitely isn't.

[adamanteus]

James said earlier that exsisting mixed genes may eventually be bred out, genetics dont work that way and you get your throw backs.

That wasn't me. I think you're quoting someone else there, Jeanette.:)

[jeanette]

my apologies James you are correct it wasnt you .

My opinion is that we do not add to the problem. Nature may possibly dilute the accidental incursions one can only hope... but keep it up, and then there's definitely no hope.
it was infact steven lol.

[drache]

Intergrades will only interfere with people's hobby and many people do put considerable amounts of money and effort into their hobby and their breeding programs. A single hybrid is enough to ruin it for the person and for those that have bought snakes from him.

They can be beautiful, but also ugly because of what they represent.

Stefan
you're making this sound like something from the dark side
I understand that there is a desire on the part of some reptile owners to have the same sort of status, the owner of a fine thoroughbred anything has
since we're at the moment addressing that, rather than conservation issues, perhaps the simplest solution would be, to have pedigree papers and certifying bodies, just like equestrian organizations and kennel clubs, for those who need them, and the average joe can keep all the mutts they want

[Lumpy]

This is one of those classic debates that we will never get a consensus on. Whether the argument is for gene purity or gift of life, we aren't going to settle it here.

I understand both sides, and there's merit to each. But at the end of the day, it boils down to living with the decision you make. I don't want this to escalate into a feud, so I agree to disagree and leave it at that.

There's a great bunch of people here, and I certainly wouldn't want to upset anyone. So it's time to lay this debate to rest.

Lump

[adamanteus]

I don't think anyone's getting upset. Personally I find it interesting to read the various opinions of the members. I don't think anyone will be proven right or wrong. We're just having healthy and friendly debate here.:)

[jeanette]

I don't think anyone's getting upset. Personally I find it interesting to read the various opinions of the members. I don't think anyone will be proven right or wrong. We're just having healthy and friendly debate here.:)
Indeed, no reason for an argument, and i can understand that somepeople may take these views personally but everyone has the right to their own opinion.

[Lumpy]

Just to open it up a bit, the debate goes on elsewhere....

December (http://home.earthlink.net/~avianresourc/december.htm)

Lump

[gregmonsta]

Stefan
you're making this sound like something from the dark side
I understand that there is a desire on the part of some reptile owners to have the same sort of status, the owner of a fine thoroughbred anything has
since we're at the moment addressing that, rather than conservation issues, perhaps the simplest solution would be, to have pedigree papers and certifying bodies, just like equestrian organizations and kennel clubs, for those who need them, and the average joe can keep all the mutts they want

Can we have annual meets and teach them to do tricks ? :D

[adamanteus]

Just to open it up a bit, the debate goes on elsewhere....

December (http://home.earthlink.net/~avianresourc/december.htm)

Lump

Shame there is no contra argument in the script... he's very eloquent, but has gone unchallenged.

[jeanette]

he is very eloquent and doesnt dispute those hybrids as pets, just is against them being bred on :)

[Lumpy]

James,

Do a search for breeders of Harlequin or Catalina Macaws, there you'll find the flip side.

Jeanette,

Yes and no. He does state that their behavior is dissimilar, and that the mating can produce quirky birds. But in my experience, I've yet to meet a parrot that wasn't a bit quirky. I have a home full of quirky! ;)

Lump

[jeanette]

James,

Do a search for breeders of Harlequin or Catalina Macaws, there you'll find the flip side.

Lump
yep that is also true :)

[drache]

Can we have annual meets and teach them to do tricks ? :D
we should have the annual meets anyway, but I don't know about the tricks
if it's just us regular thamnofolk, that would probably be fine
mine don't do tricks though and I would definitely want to come to the meet if I can scrape up the cash

[gregmonsta]

There's always slithering competitions and garter races :D or ... the food high-jump :rolleyes:

[gregmonsta]

ROFL .... seems our discussion has become famous on RFUK feed or freeze??? - Reptile Forums UK (http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/snakes/141769-feed-freeze.html)

[jeanette]

lol oooooooo

[Snake lover 3-25]

WOW!!!!!!!

um...... james and tami....... i don't think you should read that.........
it's a little on the mean side................ :(:(:(:(

IT WAS JUST A MISTAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad::mad:

[jeanette]

WOW!!!!!!!

um...... james and tami....... i don't think you should read that.........
it's a little on the mean side................ :(:(:(:(

IT WAS JUST A MISTAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad::mad:
read what???

[Snake lover 3-25]

go up 2 posts from mine and click on the link!!!!!!! get it together jeanette!!!!!!!!:D:D:p:p:p

[Zephyr]

Wow. Ouch.

Just read some of the other posts from the other forum...
I think they called James a Nazi... which is totally unsuitable, seeing as he's a sound British man. XD
**Edit- Wow, they REALLY don't like you James. XD

[jeanette]

lol i see, duh i need to get some sleep lmao

[jeanette]

Wow. Ouch.

Just read some of the other posts from the other forum...
I think they called James a Nazi... which is totally unsuitable, seeing as he's a sound British man. XD
**Edit- Wow, they REALLY don't like you James. XD
lol i think i referred to the attitude of not pure enough as naziest somewhere on this thread :D

[Snake lover 3-25]

SHHHHH!!!!!!!

i was hoping that he wouldn't notice!!!!!!!!!!

[Snake lover 3-25]

oops....... he's reading it now..........:( it's okay james...... but most of them are against you.........:(

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D:D:D:D

[Snake lover 3-25]

man!!!!!!! you always beat me!!!!!!!!!!!!:(:(:D:D

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

they called us "garter snake nazi's"

LOL

I am not for freezing them, but you guys that are, are by no means garter snake nazi's :o

[adamanteus]

Actually, I think I'm a member of that forum, if I can remember my password etc. I might go and argue the point. I think these are the same guys who wouldn't respond to my posts or acknowledge my presence because I 'only keep Garters'.... no prejudice there then!:rolleyes:

[gregmonsta]

Our conversation is at least a civilised one ;)

[Zephyr]

I think these are the same guys who wouldn't respond to my posts or acknowledge my presence because I 'only keep Garters'.... no prejudice there then!:rolleyes:
Is there any other snake truly worthy of keeping? :P

[Lumpy]

Welcome to "Board Wars '08"!!! LOL

Lump

[Snake lover 3-25]

LOL well they were mean to some of you guys......... not me.......... but who cares!!!!!! GAME ON!!!!!!:D:D:D rofl

[Zephyr]

We would own them at table tennis.

[Snake lover 3-25]

:D:DR U kidding i SUCK at that game!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D:p LOL but then again they could be worse..........:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Loren]

Well, I dont know where we are at on this whole situation since this thread is so long, but I think 2 large group pens- one males, and one females, would look pretty neat.
Just a pain to feed them all together.
I have put reptiles down by freezing, but I always start with the fridge- let them get nice and sleepy first, then put them in the freezer. Just my opinion.
Unfortunately, after all this debating, the rest of the snake breeding community is probably just a year or two away from flooding the market with every garter hybrid imaginable, along with the rest of the hybrids. :)

[brigitte]

Hi guys. I have a question. I'm new to this experience with garters. I wanted to know why you're not supposed to breed different garters together. Someone please tell me.

[Lumpy]

Hi Brigitte, and welcome to the forum!

You have chosen an interesting first topic!

Your question is a valid one, and although I don't have a hard and fast answer for you, perhaps I can point you in the direction of some summary information that can shed light on interbreeding. The summary relates to a larger body of work, but gives you a feel for what some of the challenges and responsibilities are for us mere mortals. It's not a long read, and it's not technical, which is good. Even I can understand the larger issues!

http://www.ogtr.gov.au/pdf/committee/trans-speciesGeneTransfer08.pdf

I am new to the reptilian world, and have not bred Garters, although I do have some background with breeding exotic birds. The same issues exist with the avian world as I imagine do with the breeding of any naturally occuring animal.

Opinions about ethical, religous and social repsonsibilities are varied and all have merit. So keeping an open mind is important!

Lump

[adamanteus]

LOL well they were mean to some of you guys......... not me.......... but who cares!!!!!! GAME ON!!!!!! rofl

I don't think we need to start a forum war, Shanley. Most of the responses were quite sensible and balanced over on RFUK. There just seems to be a husband and wife team who became outraged by this thread, and were taking it in turns to talk to each other about it on the computer, and keeping the topic going.


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.. these americans and a couple of europeans.. not from the uk.. are hell bent on this method of disposing of these so called unwanted, sub species snakes as they call them.. i think that it should be illegal. i wish somebody would stick them in a freezer and let them see what it feels like.. sick bhttp://www.reptileforums.co.uk/images/smilies/censored.gifd's. i would home any snake that any of mine gave birth to even if it was not of a pure bloodline etc.. they make me soo mad.. its no different to the fanatical views of lets say the nazi's and the aryan race.. just with snakes not people!




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sadly hunnie there is a handful on that site that are from the UK, but it seems that only one of the brits is in favour of freezing them.



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Quote:



Originally Posted by Pliskens_Chains http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/snakes/141769-feed-freeze-3.html#post1922263)



sadly hunnie there is a handful on that site that are from the UK, but it seems that only one of the brits is in favour of freezing them.




well damn me.. thats discraceful.. they should all be ashamed of themselves.. saying they love snakes etc etc..



btw hunnie.. you know im gonna be on about this for the rest of the nite in bed.. i mite even talk b*******s about it in my sleep.. lmao...












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yep i agree



theres a lot of people that have offered to rehome these hybrids and the problem is that they are getting told how immoral it is to allow the snakes to live....WTF!! isnt it immoral to kill them off, they are healthy, attractive no deformities, theres even a chance that these natural intergrades can and may have happened in the wild as there species borders cross each other



__________________

[Odie]

Hi, from Oregon, Brigitte :)

[Odie]

Tina, I would like 2 of them :cool:
They would be a new part of the family :D

[Stefan-A]

Stefan
you're making this sound like something from the dark side
I understand that there is a desire on the part of some reptile owners to have the same sort of status, the owner of a fine thoroughbred anything has
since we're at the moment addressing that, rather than conservation issues, perhaps the simplest solution would be, to have pedigree papers and certifying bodies, just like equestrian organizations and kennel clubs, for those who need them, and the average joe can keep all the mutts they want
Never cared so much for pedigree, but I could never buy a fake or a cheap imitation.

I wonder if there's a TLA for that..

[Stefan-A]

ROFL .... seems our discussion has become famous on RFUK feed or freeze??? - Reptile Forums UK (http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/snakes/141769-feed-freeze.html)
They're so cute when they're angry. :D

But I would like to add, that I've gotten so used to people talking about "throwing snakes in the fridge" and freezing them, that I've started using the term myself as a euphemism for killing them, even though I wouldn't actually recommend that method. Bad choice of words on my part.

But the thought remains.

[jeanette]

They're so cute when they're angry. :D

But I would like to add, that I've gotten so used to people talking about "throwing snakes in the fridge" and freezing them, that I've started using the term myself as a euphemism for killing them, even though I wouldn't actually recommend that method. Bad choice of words on my part.

But the thought remains.
you dont recommend that method? i thought you were all for freezing, so how would you euthanise?

[Zephyr]

you dont recommend that method? i thought you were all for freezing, so how would you euthanise?Decapitation...

[adamanteus]

you dont recommend that method? i thought you were all for freezing, so how would you euthanise?

Be careful how you answer this one guys... you don't want to get flamed on another forum.;)

[jeanette]

Decapitation...
decaptitation??? didnt that happen to that burmese python that had been stolen (somewhere on another thread). as i remember everyone was saying how inhuman and evil that was. :(

[Zephyr]

decaptitation??? didnt that happen to that burmese python that had been stolen (somewhere on another thread). as i remember everyone was saying how inhuman and evil that was. :(Observe the intent: Whoever killed that snake had the intent of ending its life obviously because they couldn't swallow their pride and return it, or they just hated snakes. The method itself is not inhuman when left with no other choice; If she can't access CO2, then decapitation is the quickest and LEAST painful method, as odd as it sounds.

[jeanette]

Observe the intent: Whoever killed that snake had the intent of ending its life obviously because they couldn't swallow their pride and return it, or they just hated snakes. The method itself is not inhuman when left with no other choice; If she can't access CO2, then decapitation is the quickest and LEAST painful method, as odd as it sounds.
ok point taken....i guess
seems all wrong to me though, still seems like a waste of life

[Zephyr]

Well, perhaps we could draft some sort of binding document for those willing to provide homes for the snakes, stating that under no circumstances whatsoever are the snakes to leave their possession...

[adamanteus]

We could throw this topic around for another week, and still never reach a consensus. At the end of the day the choice is Tina's, and she has already decided she won't be euthanizing anything. We should respect her decision and move on.