Garter Hybridization

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Hello Everyone!

I am normally not into captive bred hybrid animals, but I am curious... Has anyone in the forum hybridized different species of garters? The reason why I am asking is because I live in a multiple intergrade zone. Humboldt and Del Norte Counties in NW California have 4 species of Thamnophis (sirtalis [fitchi & infernalis],elegans [elegans & terrestris], atratus hydrophilus, and ordinoides). Aside from intergrades between ssp., I am suspicious of some of the resultant "morphs". Many of the old school university heads are still stuck on maintaining the nomenclature, rather than reinterpreting what the definition of a species or subspecies should be. If there are any unusual patterns or colors, these are written off as variability within the species. I have, however come across too many specimens, where my gut tells me "this is a combo", a hybrid, and not an intergrade or a "morph". Gut feelings are not very scientific, but they are often the driving force behind new discovery; that's why I have gone back to school!

The attached photograph is of an apparent T. s. infernalis X T. e. terrestris. Typical of infernalis is the red head, 7 upper labials, unpatterned ventrals, and high-def red indentations (spots) pushing from the ventrals up into a black dorsolateral field. Classic features for terrestris vary; all however commonly have 2 alternating rows of black spots within the dorsolateral field, whether the background is brown, olive-brown, or partially, even completely suffused with red pigments; heads are normally olive to brown; 8 upper labials and red belly flecking are common; blue-gray bellied morphs occasionally exist, possibly influenced by Mountain intergrades. While not visible, red flecking occurred on this snake's caudal ventrals. More pictures of this specimen and others are viewable at HumboldtHerps.com (Natives Index)

Any experience you have had or word you have heard regarding hybridization ingarters would be highly appreciated, if it were sent my way.

Thank you,

Steven Krause

[adamanteus]

I have no experience at all of intergradation... I'm on the wrong side of the Atlantic. I would just mention that the red/orange flecking on the caudal ventrals is common to T. ordinoides as well.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Yes, red flecking occurs in both ordinoides and e. terrestris, however this example was too large and did not have the typically small head of ordinoides. The pattern of this snake, although a bit chaotic, was nothing like all the ordinoides varieties that I have seen. I should also mention, that in this snake's case, the locale where it was found (Mad River near Arcata,CA) is a virtual Thamnophis jamboree! Here you find infernalis, multiple morphs of terrestris (w or w/o red flecking), one variation of ordinoides (possibly its southernmost range - I am working on this one with a local wildlife biologist in Crescent City; this Northwestern is a dull snake w/o red flecks.), and last Thursday we found an Oregon Garter (T. a. hydrophilus), which was probably swept downstream (these guys might also be migrating; they are amazing brutes!).

Sooo.... You can imagine my bafflement every time I stumble across these mixed pallets. Subspecies intergrades are usu. pretty obvious; it's the apparent hybrids that raise the eyebrows!

[adamanteus]

It sounds like a fascinating area you're in, Steven... obviously many more photographs are required from you!:rolleyes:

[Stefan-A]

I can simply agree, the phenomenon of naturally occurring hybrids is very interesting, at least to me. :)

[Zephyr]

Have we ruled out the possibility of individual variation?

[Stefan-A]

I don't think it can be ruled out without genetic testing.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Thanks for all your replies! What a great forum!

I do not think we can rule anything out. Individual variations (and there are a lot of polygenic phases!), subspecies intergradation, inter-special hybridization, dietary ontogenetic influences, incredible tendencies towards continual migrations in many species, & "Oh, no! Not simple recessive genes to boot! The list goes on.... and we human Thamnophis geeks are there to ponder the chaotic!

I should major in genetics!

[drache]

yeah
I wonder whether there are some species that are more likely to mix than others
curious to hear - and see - more

[Zephyr]

Thanks for all your replies! What a great forum!

I do not think we can rule anything out. Individual variations (and there are a lot of polygenic phases!), subspecies intergradation, inter-special hybridization, dietary ontogenetic influences, incredible tendencies towards continual migrations in many species, & "Oh, no! Not simple recessive genes to boot! The list goes on.... and we human Thamnophis geeks are there to ponder the chaotic!

I should major in genetics!
Could Stefan please translate?
I think he's speaking in Finnish...

[Stefan-A]

He must be, because I didn't need to have it translated. :D

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

then I guess I speak finnish too cause I could read it:D

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Hello again...

Other than the various mitochondrial DNA comparisons shown in Rossman, Ford, and Seigel's The Garter Snakes, there have been additional local studies done in the cladistic relationships between our local species (especially the Klamath region (S. Oregon, N. California)). Some DNA samples showed the possibility of T. ordinoides being an older morphotype of the Thamnophis genus, being closely related to the common ancestors of both the T. elegans and T. atratus complexes. Northwesterns are small, virtually fossorial. Despite their many variations in color and pattern and the way these are often very similar to other Thamnophis species, I currently do not suspect that ordinoides is necessarily hybridizing. They're just so small, and there is little key comparable evidence for such an assumption. My first choice is T. sirtalis fitchi or infernalis X T. elegans terrestris; my second is T. atratus hydrophilus X T. elegans elegans. This may all be pure nonsense, for I do also believe that Nature has a way of smacking us in the face with "You thought what? Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Haaaaa!" I believe these snakes are constantly evolving, possibly reinventing themselves along the way by mixing compatible genetics. As I do not agree with intentional hybridization of different species for the pet trade (esp. in the case where this act causes sterility or defects), I do believe hybrid tests should be run to determine the reality of these species' relationships with one another in the wild. As I said we have many overlapping species ranges here in NW CA. The possibilities are endless! I am beginning to suspect that the continuous ignorance of species definition (What is a species?) may actually be a protective act; if multiple species were realized as one species (with multiple races), then afforded protection might be stripped - as in "There's plenty of them there snakes over there, let's log over here!"
The tension b/n loggers and environmentalists is still quite polarized up here. Anyways, enough with all the conjecture!

I am new to keeping garters as household guests. I have been a corn snake guy for years. Anyways, will keep you all up to date if I learn anything new.

Thanks and good night!

Steven

P.S. Lefty ate 2 pieces of raw trout out of my hand today (He's my WC avatar!)

[adamanteus]

Conjecture indeed, but fascinating conjecture never the less.:) I guess we will never really know which 'recognised' forms have come together to make a wild hybrid, without DNA sampling.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Yes, but if I engaged in some captive breeding, I could probably find out within 3 years whether or not some hybrids are possible and whether or not the offspring are fertile. No DNA testing required providing I have clean-cut specimens of each of the local spercies. I guess that means more snakes..... I have room here somewhere... LOL!

[Zephyr]

Yes, but if I engaged in some captive breeding, I could probably find out within 3 years whether or not some hybrids are possible and whether or not the offspring are fertile. No DNA testing required providing I have clean-cut specimens of each of the local spercies. I guess that means more snakes..... I have room here somewhere... LOL!Ah, but what if your clean-cut local species are in fact hybrids? :P

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Ah, but what if your clean-cut local species are in fact hybrids? :P

Ah! The ecstasy of chaos! At that point I will truly scream. But first, well, there is no way to tell without the mitochondrial journey.

Theoretically (HA!): If a male hybrid and a female hybrid (both same kinds of hybrids - let's say they are both 1/2 terrestris and 1/2 infernalis)... if they mate, and produce live babies, then WALAH! PRESTO! We need to redefine the both species! If the breeding male is shooting blanks, well then we have your typical hybrid were there is partial (male) or total sterility (How could you tell which, other than try the female with a backcross to another male from either species?).

All I want right now is to do a simple inter-special cross with 2 "classic" locality types, and see what I get. Unfortunately, that's a few classes away before I can get special permission from HSU and CA Fish and Game.
Breeding native garters is prohibited.

Thanks for tuning in,

Steve