help sexing...

[bob]

hi, i've read through the previous posts about sexing, and realise how hard it is to be 100%, but can any one make some suggestions about this snake?

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r47/bobmcpop/hjgfhjfg.jpg

thanks:)

[Stefan-A]

Very hard to see from that picture, but what do I know, I'm just a beginner. It would probably help a lot if the entire tail or even the entire animal was visible, since one of the signs is the relative length of the tail, as well as how it is shaped.

[bob]

hey,

haha it was hard enough just to take a pic of the underside of its tail, dont' fink i'l be able to manage taking a pic of the whole underside

if i try and see if i can use some string or something to find the ratio will that help? its only a young snake.

[Snaky]

I'm also quite bad at seeing the gender. But if you have an experienced person, you can let him 'pop'. It's quite an effective way to know the gender, but should be learned to you by an experienced person otherwise you might hurt the snake (as being told, I can't pop myself, it's on the to learn list).

Otherwise, wait till the snake is a bit older, than it become's more visible.

[abcat1993]

Or you can probe (I think that's what it's called). Also, I don't think you need a shot of the entire underside, just the top.

[Cazador]

Hi Bob,
Welcome to the forum. I think you're our first member from Ireland, so I really hope you like it here and hang around! There isn't much I could add that Stefan hasn't alread said. My first impression is that it's a male, but I'm not at all confident of that. It might help if you can put it on a glass table and take a picture from beneath. Also, the side view is helpful, but it's a tough call in those pictures, even though they're very clear.

[ssssnakeluvr]

well, looks like a male...a full shot of the tail would help or even the whole snake. Popping can only be done inthe first month after they are born. After that, the muscles are developing and you can cause damage. Probing is safer, but you gotta be careful doing that also. As they reach adult size, females are a lot stockier than males.

[bob]

thanks for the welcome cazador

yeah, i've read/heard of all the poping/probing techniques, but would never have the guts to do them myself.

what made you think its a male?

what about stefan-a's suggestion about the relative length of the tail? has anyone noticed body-tail ratios being different on males and females?

cheers guys

[Cazador]

Sure. Stefan's right. You can judge by the relative length of the tail, but it's most reliable when you're comparing two snakes of the same age or size. Otherwise, you have to rely on judgement and memory :eek:.

My initial impression that it might be a male was because I don't see a real dramatic change in the width/depth of the tail right before and after the vent. It seems pretty straight with only a little change. I'm also guessing that your snake is fairly young and small, like an adolescent, based on its diameter and the diameter of your fingers. Adolescents can also be tricky to judge, and like Don said, you can't pop them at that stage.
Rick

[jewel-dragons]

at the foto in the middle.... i think that's a male....

[Thamnophis]

My first impression.... male.

[Cazador]

Hey Bob,
Just to give you some perspective, you've got some pretty "heavy-hitters" weighing in, and all of them have been leaning toward your snake being a male, but you can never show too many pictures ;).

[GarterGuy]

Well I'll throw my two cents in too and vote male.......but definitely not 100%....like Rick was saying more pics would help.

[bob]

thanks guys! never expected so many replies - great forum...

took this pic last night and used the snake measuring software... total length: 17.5", tail: 3.8", body (including head): 13.7".

so a 3.6 : 1 body:tail ratio

if anyone else has done any measurements like these and know for certain the snakes' sex, it would be great if you could post them and maybe we can spot a pattern. thanks again!!!

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r47/bobmcpop/DSC04369.jpg

ps. i'll try and see if i can get a few more better pictures.

[nessy]

what about counting the scales on the tail? i herd that one sex is supposed to have more vertebrae than the other......

[abcat1993]

I don't know about that but I think females have longer tails.

[Cazador]

According to Rossman et. al (1991), males have more vertebrae, more subcaudal scales (between the vent and the tip of the tail, or tail spike), and longer tails. I know the numbers for T.s. concinnus, but I suspect that these numbers would vary from species to species, and probably even between certain subspecies. By the way, these scales are easiest to count in a picture, instead of on a live, moving snake.

[GarterGuy]

According to Rossman et. al (1991), males have more vertebrae, more subcaudal scales (between the vent and the tip of the tail, or tail spike), and longer tails. I know the numbers for T.s. concinnus, but I suspect that these numbers would vary from species to species, and probably even between certain subspecies. By the way, these scales are easiest to count in a picture, instead of on a live, moving snake.

Hmmmm....just what are the ventral scale counts on T.s.concinnus?? I have a snake that was "popped" and said it was a female, but I'd bet the bank it's a male.

[Cazador]

Males have 84-85 subcaudal scales on one side of their body, posterior to the vent. Start counting at the vent when the first two subcaudal scales from different sides actually touch one another. Don't count the first few scales near the vent that don't touch. Females have about 71-72, plus the tail spike.

[nessy]

wow that's quite a big difference, this would be quite a reliable method of sexing then?
do you have the figures for s.parietalis?

[bob]

nessy: do you know the sex of your parietalis? can you count your's and i can see if mine is the same/different sex... or indeed anyone else who has a parietalis and will be willing to help...:)

cheers

[suzoo]

Hello Bob,
I have been sexing my own snakes for 10 years, and I would say male at 1st glance. I could be wrong, but I haven't been yet with my own.
Suzoo

[GarterGuy]

Males have 84-85 subcaudal scales on one side of their body, posterior to the vent. Start counting at the vent when the first two subcaudal scales from different sides actually touch one another. Don't count the first few scales near the vent that don't touch. Females have about 71-72, plus the tail spike.

Cool, thanx Rick!

[nessy]

hi bob, not sure what sex mine is, was told by the shop owner that it's a girl cos i planned on breeding later... but he was wrong about the species! haha so i dont really trust the sex...
i had a quick count, about 69-73 from a picture...quite easy to lose count especially at the tip of the tail!
probably be more useful if more snakes were counted and compared though.

[Cazador]

Sorry Nessy. I don't have data for T.s. parietalis, but it would be fun to start a database for reference among forum members. All it would take is for people to post their subcaudal scale counts (like you, Bob, and I are doing) and say what species/subspecies they have, OR they could post clear pictures of their snakes from the vent to the tail spike and mention what subspecies they have.

Bob,
I got 66 on your snake before the tail went behind that handle (or whatever) in your picture. Your camera really takes nice pictures. Let us know the final count, okay?

Rick

[nessy]

what a great idea Rick!! that would be a great piece of work!
yeah i'll get a better count on my parietalis now, but my info might not be that reliable cos i dont know for sure what sex mine is.







GarterGuy's idea: genius

[GarterGuy]

Also, I imagine that you could count the ventrals using a shed skin...might be lots easier then counting on a swirmy snake or taking a good enough pic.:D

[bob]

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r47/bobmcpop/DSC04376.jpg

[Cazador]

I'd offer one more tip, if you're going to use a picture. Take several pictures from different angles, and try to focus near the tip of the tail since that area has the smallest scales. The larger scales near the vent are always much easier to see.

Bob, I counted 85 scales on yours before the small gap in dots near the tail spike. Then I couldn't tell where the scales ended and the spike began. If you come up with anything different (besides 85 or 86), please let us know, okay? If we get enough responses, we'll start keeping better records. Cheers,
Rick

[abcat1993]

Or can't you just wait until it sheds and count the shed?

[Cazador]

Each method has it's unique problems. Counting from a shed can be very easy, but sometimes the last little bit near the tail spike doesn't get inverted, and sometimes (rarely) this section actually breaks off and must be removed from the snake separately. Don't get me wrong, this can be a very easy and reliable method, but you also have to wait until your snake sheds before getting an answer (unless you've saved a previous shed).
Rick

[GarterGuy]

LOL....I have no problems with that. I have almost every single shed from every single snake that I've ever had. Lost a few to dermesteds, but I've got some that are over 25yrs. old (the skins...not the snakes!) I have sheds from my first pet snake, a Manitoba T.s.parietalis, that I got when I was 10! Yeh, I'm a pack rat!:cool:

[Stefan-A]

Yes, you are. ;)

I just saved the first shed from my first snake.

[nessy]

what about your parietalis Rick?

[Cazador]

I have T.s. concinnus and T. ordinoides. Bob has the T.s. parietalis, and he got 85-86 subcaudal scales. Hopefully, we'll get some more photos of the tail area of different snakes as people are bringing them out of brumation this spring. They're easy to photograph when they're still moving slow.
Rick

[zirliz]

This is an interesting thread I've been wondering how you sex these I'm pretty sure one of mine is a female the other is totally uncooperative

[suzoo]

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//519/medium/Female_T_Radix_Gloria1.jpg
This is my adult female T. Radix, see how she gets smaller around after the vent

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//519/medium/Sues_Snakes_005.jpg
This is my adult male T. Radix, see how he does not taper so much after the vent, just goes on gradually