Help with identification

[dcomymire]

Hello all,
My daughter came in with this snake today. I have no idea what it is. Can anyone help us identify it?

<a href="20080518_187.jpg - Image - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting (http://s58.photobucket.com/albums/g255/DCOMMIRE/?action=view&current=20080518_187.jpg)" target="_blank"><img src="http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g255/DCOMMIRE/20080518_187.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

<a href="20080518_191.jpg - Image - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting (http://s58.photobucket.com/albums/g255/DCOMMIRE/?action=view&current=20080518_191.jpg)" target="_blank"><img src="http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g255/DCOMMIRE/20080518_191.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

[bulrush]

What city and state are you in? A location where the snake was found would help.

[adamanteus]

I'd like to see a better picture, preferably showing the tail. It looks like a Massasauga!:eek:
But then I haven't got my glasses on.
If you can't get a better photo, please give us more information as to location, habitat type etc.

[dcomymire]

We are in Lowell, Mi. I thought it was a eastern rattlesnake but there are no beads on the tail. I looked at all 17 of Michigans species and nothing looked exactly the same but the massasuga looked the most similar.

[adamanteus]

If it is a youngster, it may not have developed a rattle yet. Plus the rattle can get damaged and knocked off.
Is the tail very blunt or gracefully tapered?

[dcomymire]

We figured it out by it's characterists. My daughter didn't mention that it flattened out its neck like a cobra and later it got stressed and rolled over with it's mouth open. These actions are typical of the eastern hognose. Wow, what an exciting find!

Thanks for your help.

[EdgyExoticReptiles]

lol lucky she didnt get bit, that woulda been bad

We figured it out by it's characterists. My daughter didn't mention that it flattened out its neck like a cobra and later it got stressed and rolled over with it's mouth open. These actions are typical of the eastern hognose. Wow, what an exciting find!

Thanks for your help.

[anji1971]

I just looked at a bunch of pictures on Google, and it does have the markings of a hognose, with very nice colouring I might add!
With the behaviour you described, that's probably right............nice find!!:)

[EdgyExoticReptiles]

oh its a hognose, i knew that :), it looked venomous, i couldnt tell if it had a smooshed face

[Snake lover 3-25]

hognose are venomous?????? nice find BTW

[jeanette]

hognoses are venomous but they are back fanged so they need to chew on you to envenomate you not just bite.
the bite from the hognose will only be dangerous to those who are allergic to it, mostly its just swelling and feeling like ummm well feeling bad.
great find there, wish my kids would find me a snake like that. lol

[Snake lover 3-25]

okay thanks....... their deff. off mu snakes to get list!!!:D:D:D:D:D:DROFLMAO!!!!!!!

[jeanette]

awww why would they be off your list? they arnt really known for being snappy anyway, they are pretty chilled snakes even though they are venomous. now other rear fanged snakes like the false water cobra, have a real attitude problem and seem to like to bite people lol

[Snake lover 3-25]

well.... i'm pretty much alergic to every kind of poison...... from bees to ivy........:):(

[enigma200316]

Im still not totaly convinced, I didn't now they had such nice looking venom glands, or atleast thats what it looks like, could u get a profile pic of the head and nose area...........

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Looks like an eastern hognose, but i am not 100% convinced... are the eye pupils round? or slit shaped like a cat's? If the snake played dead though and flatted its neck cobra style it is almost definately a hognose.

[adamanteus]

Im still not totaly convinced...........

Nor am I..........

[jeanette]

well.... i'm pretty much alergic to every kind of poison...... from bees to ivy........:):(
aww im sorry to hear that its not nice having allergies :(

i was pretty sure it was a hognose from the rough scales, but not 100%.

they dont look much like a venomous snake due to the fact that they dont really have the large venom glands that most venomous do but you can definately see them on that piccy, such a pretty snake though . :D

[enigma200316]

yeah that is true but I didn't think they had a real resemblance to a rattler, the head is whats keeping me not 100% sure......

[Snake lover 3-25]

aww im sorry to hear that its not nice having allergies :(

yeah it pretty much sucks.... if i was a girly girl that never went out i wouldn't mind..... but i'm not so i do......:(:)

BTW i have no idea what kind it is LOL:D

[jeanette]

im so glad it wasnt a rattler since his daughter found it, could have been a real tragedy there, they tend to strike when they feel threatened.

did anyone see this link ? YouTube - Rattlesnake attack live on ABC (very scary!) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMxuwvel1Dg)
this is the biggest rattle snake ive ever seen.

[Snake lover 3-25]

omg that was bad!!!!!!!!!! that guy was an idiot though....... why would he stick his hand right in front of it???????

[adamanteus]

im so glad it wasnt a rattler since his daughter found it.

Are you sure?


http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//537/medium/ScatAllerton.jpg

Eastern Massasauga

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//537/EMass_GL.jpg

Eastern Massasauga

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g255/DCOMMIRE/20080518_187.jpg?t=1211233422 (http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g255/DCOMMIRE/20080518_187.jpg?t=1211233422)

Mystery snake.

[Snake lover 3-25]

eek!!!!! that sure looks like one........:(:(:(:(

[jeanette]

aint that the truth, that must have felt like having his hand hit with a lump hammer.
i was so awed by the power that rattler must have used to totally have slipped that clamp on its neck.
people are so stupid at times, that host thought he was totally safe, he so underestimated what a rattle snake will do when it feels threatened.

[adamanteus]

Check the dorsal saddles, the dorso-lateral spots, the band across the snout, the narrow neck, the body form... the potentially fatal bite.

[Snake lover 3-25]

i personally would take it right back to where i found it.... even if there is any chance of it being one......:(

[enigma200316]

this is why we need the other pics, do not handle this snake to we know for sure seriuosly.............try to get the pics in the most safest way you can.................and sooner than later please!!!!

[jeanette]

Are you sure

.
nope but if its ok im going to ask someone who keeps hognoses to have a look at that picture and see what they think.
:)

[enigma200316]

nope but if its ok im going to ask someone who keeps hognoses to have a look at that picture and see what they think.
:)



thats your call, but I hope your right, because if not it can be very bad......:)

[adamanteus]

All we need is a simple pic of the tail. Or an answer to my earlier question....

"If it is a youngster, it may not have developed a rattle yet. Plus the rattle can get damaged and knocked off.
Is the tail very blunt or gracefully tapered?"

[jeanette]

thats your call, but I hope your right, because if not it can be very bad......:)
yeah i agree lets try and get it identified before anything happens

[adamanteus]

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//537/easternhognose.jpg

'Patterned' Eastern Hognose Snake..... similar, but....

[jeanette]

very similar.
im waiting to hear from some people to hear what they think.
im fairly sure its a hognose, but if we cant positivly ID it then they really need to take it and release it away from people, just in case.
i found these images.........
http://www.herpnet.net/Minnesota-Herpetology/snakes/images/hognoseWest.jpg
http://www.garden-city.org/zoo/animalinfo/images/Hognose_76pic.jpg
http://ndis.nrel.colostate.edu/herpatlas/coherpatlas/images/Species/Snakes/easternhognose.jpg
http://faculty.uca.edu/~mcdonaldv/photogallery/Eastern%20Hognose%20Snake%20(Heterodon%20platirhin os)%202.jpg
the last link shows a hognose displaying its flat neck because it feels threatened

[jeanette]

4 out of 4 people that keep hognoses think its hognose. one even said its a heterdon nasicus nasicus the western hognose. he says they hiss like hell and flatten their necks.

[adamanteus]

H. nasicus doesn't occur in Michigan. Have these people ever seen a Massasauga?
Maybe I'm wrong, but if I am no one dies.
Over the years I have kept occassional Hognose Snakes and numerous Rattlers.
By the way, Rattlers flatten their heads.

[jeanette]

one sec i will check and see.
better to be safe than sorry .

[Charlet_2007]

hognoses are venomous but they are back fanged

you mean rear fanged.. i think it's a young pine snake just throwing that out there??? lol

[adamanteus]

Back-fanged, rear-fanged... either is acceptable.:)

[adamanteus]

Okay guys.. peace. Let's agree to differ until we see better pictures.
But I think we must all agree that the utmost caution is called for until a positive ID is reached.

[Charlet_2007]

fair enough:D

[jeanette]

Okay guys.. peace. Let's agree to differ until we see better pictures.
But I think we must all agree that the utmost caution is called for until a positive ID is reached.
i completely agree James, and if we cant positively ID it, the best advice would be for it to be released well away from people. We need a tail shot to be 100% sure that this isnt a rattler.

[adamanteus]

I think I should e-mail the guy though, and tell him there is some doubt about the ID, just in case.

[EdgyExoticReptiles]

well if it ends of being venemous i am soo glad it did not bite his daughter

[jeanette]

I think I should e-mail the guy though, and tell him there is some doubt about the ID, just in case.
yeah do it James ive been searching through pictures and i have to agree the heterdon nasicus nasicus does bear a striking resemblance to the massasauga.

[jeanette]

James, if your e-mailing him, suggest he call his local wildlife rescue people, they can come and identify it and take it off his hands if it is infact dangerous

[adamanteus]

i have to agree the heterdon nasicus nasicus does bear a striking resemblance to the massasauga.

Indeed it does, Jeanette, but H. n. nasicus does not occur in Michigan.
I've mailed him, just to recommend extreme caution.

[adamanteus]

James, if your e-mailing him, suggest he call his local wildlife rescue people, they can come and identify it and take it off his hands if it is infact dangerous

Excellent idea.... consider it done.:)

[Zephyr]

I'm pretty sure that ISN'T a hognose. The nose would be a little more upturned, even in a juvenile...

[adamanteus]

Let's wait for better pictures Kyle.:)

[jeanette]

good job that we are taking precautions then.
i so want a positive ID on this snake now, because it has caused so much doubt and worry and mainly so we can be sure that nobody is in danger.
i so have to go to bed, but i know im going to worry now.

[adamanteus]

Let's wait for better pictures Kyle.:)

Then you can all flame me for being such a 'wuss'!!:D

[adamanteus]

good job that we are taking precautions then.
i so want a positive ID on this snake now, because it has caused so much doubt and worry and mainly so we can be sure that nobody is in danger.
i so have to go to bed, but i know im going to worry now.


I've mailed him twice, there's little more we can do.:)

[jeanette]

Then you can all flame me for being such a 'wuss'!!:D
its not being a wuss, its called being sensible.
you said you have kept a few rattlers? Then in other words you know how dangerous it is to have one. Thats the reason we have DWA's in the UK.
im behind you on being cautious in this :)

[adamanteus]

Thanks Jeanette. http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/images/smilies/flirt.gif

[Snake lover 3-25]

where do you get those crazy smilies????:D

[jeanette]

have we heard anything more about what this snake was?

[adamanteus]

Not a word. They're probably all dead!

[Loren]

did anyone see this link ? YouTube - Rattlesnake attack live on ABC (very scary!) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMxuwvel1Dg)
this is the biggest rattle snake ive ever seen.
You do know that was fake, right?

[EdgyExoticReptiles]

really? some people said it was fake some people said it was real, idk how they would stage that

You do know that was fake, right?

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

that is defiantely fake... no doubt about it... first of all no snake handler handles their snake that way.. and when you have a firm grip on a snake's head they don't shake around like that!!! If the snake was real you would have seen it writhing around trying to pull backward out of the thing.. never once did it do that! I never even saw the tail move! even the guy's reaction and paramedic's calm appearance screams fake...

[Loren]

really? some people said it was fake some people said it was real, idk how they would stage that

As Shannon said, no respectable snake handler would tong a snake that tight, especially not around the head/neck, plus there arent any rattlesnakes that require that kind of restraint, secondly, It doesnt look like any real species of rattlesnake, or any real snake for that matter,(unless I missed it, they didnt even name a real species) and third- its Jimmy Kimmel- It would have been all over the news if someone that well known got bit. Where were the followup storys? There werent any.
It would have been as big of a story as that Kennedy guy that is in the hospital right now.
If you were cruel enough to tong a snake that tightly around the head, it would thrash its body worse than a wild caught garter on a hot day.
It looked only slightly more real than a muppets character to me.

Also, I almost guarantee that Jimmy is to big a chicken to even be in the same building as a rattlesnake.

Just my observations.

:)

[dcomymire]

Thanks for all the replies. We had alot of fun showing off this beautiful snake. We have confirmed it is an eastern hognose. We let it go yesterday. I had a long talk with my girls about picking up just any old snake. They are fearless!

[adamanteus]

I'm glad to hear I was wrong. Very wise to advise your daughters about the dangers of unknown species.

[enigma200316]

Glad to hear that danger is over...........:) btw how or who confirmed it, just asking..........;)

[bulrush]

We could use a closeup pic of the face, showing the nose. A hognose has a flat, upturned nose.

An associate of mine finds them in Middleville, MI.

[dcomymire]

Sorry, for leaving you all hang on the ID. I didn't realize their was more than one page to this post. We have a good friend who has had many snakes and had a hognose as a kid. He referred to it as a puff adder but we found out later that is impossible, but it's a local term for the eastern hognose. When he came to look at it, it started hissing then rolled over and coiled up with it's mouth open. (classic eastern hognose move) Thanks to everyone for their concern and advise. This has been the most helpful site I have ever used. Thanks again.

[adamanteus]

You're very welcome, Dave. I hope I didn't spook you with my Rattler warning!
Better safe than sorry, eh?:rolleyes:

[enigma200316]

well thank god it wasn't a rattler,and your welcome, and of course like James said, better safe than sorry................:)