freezing mice......humane question...well lots of

[CrazyHedgehog]

OK, with over 20 snakes, the price of food is outragous...
also, farming frozen mice seems to be a profitable thing to get into..

OK, breeding and keeping mice would not be so much of a problem, but how do these big sellers kill them humanely?

I have heard some just freeze them, the coldness cools them to sleep and its 'supposedly' fairly pain free.....hmmmmm not sure

Have also heard about C02, chamber, put them in and gas them, but with pinkies, apparently they have an 'anti smother' mechanism to protect from being suffocated by mother, in which case it can take up to 30 minutes...hardly seems humane..

Have read about 'flicking the nose hard' but I'm talking hundreds of mice? and again, hardly seems humane....

One site suggested putting in air tight bag and freezing...it just gets worse...Not sure if I could actually do any of these, and would probably end up with hundreds of pet mice, but just in thought mode..

How is it done?

[GarterGuy]

I think a lot use the CO2 method....also some places get there mice from labs that use them for other purposes....especially to work with there blood (if you've ever bought mice called "cut throats"..that's where they came from). The labs use isofluorene to "gas" them ( I actually did some work with a large testing lab making iosfluorene detectors so they could tell if the "kill boxes" were leaking). Freezing ectotherms, like reptiles is humane, but mice are mammals just like us.....freezing to death is not a great way to go. By the time they'd "slow down" they've already suffered from the freezing of their extremities (tails, feet, ears)...which if you've ever been outside for a long time in the winter....it's VERY painful! You'd probably be best off actually contacting some of the rodent breeders and asking them what they use.

---Roy

[Stefan-A]

I could be wrong about this and I probably am, but I don't think that CO2 should trigger any "anti smother" mechanism since it's not an obstruction of air flow. On the contrary, I think that the rising CO2 levels should cause the pinky to breath even more.

[boeh]

As far as I know, it gonna take a long long time, till a pinkie die in cause of CO2. I kill all my pinkies by throwing them on the floor. It sounds some kind hard, but it's the easiest and quickest method I know about. One trickle of a second an it's all over.

Cyrill

[nessy]

i read on the "new scientist" magazine that using CO2 (as in using dry-ice) to kill animals was once thought to be painless but in fact gives the animal "a distinct sensation of being suffocated" because animals have sensors about CO2 levels or something... cant really remember... the new method that they are trying to put into practice is using nitrogen.... but seeing as we can't get hold of that, using carbon monoxide?

ps. there was also this interesting article about how all colubrids, which where once thought to be non-venomous, are in fact venomous. that snakes did not evolve venom (they had it when they evolved from venomous lizards), but boas/pythons evolved out of having/using venom. you guys ever heard of anything similar?

[CrazyHedgehog]

Ok, have been searching again, have found this..
http://oacu.od.nih.gov/ARAC/EuthCO2.pdf
which seems to be the 'proper'way,
It mentions about stress in too quick exposure to C02, and has to be levelled slowly so that they pass out before getting stressed...
Pinkies up to 10 days are immune to C02?? or similar gasses....have a look!

[Stefan-A]

As far as I know, it gonna take a long long time, till a pinkie die in cause of CO2. I kill all my pinkies by throwing them on the floor. It sounds some kind hard, but it's the easiest and quickest method I know about. One trickle of a second an it's all over.

Cyrill
No doubt quick and relatively painless, but I have heard many complain about the pinkies bursting easily after they have been thawed, when they have been killed using any kind of force.

[boeh]

@Stefan-A
Maybe that happen when you do that the first times. After that, you get a feeling for that. I can't complain about things like that. Either way it isn't a nice practice, and if you have to kill more than 20, it's getting hard. Nevertheless I only kill my pinkies like that. I feed prekilled (without freezing) as good as possible.

[abcat1993]

I would personally go for something cheap and what to me sounds painless. Something that kills them instantly like throwing them on the floor (but if you throw too hard they splatter and too soft they live-painfully), or flicking thier nose. That's how I would choose to die between CO2 and getting my head smashed.
PS: This might sound like I hate mice (which I do) but as I said that sounds humane enough to me.

[CrazyHedgehog]

aggghhhh it sent before I had finished...

[CrazyHedgehog]

I would rather pay a little more to kill them quickly and humanely..
If I set the C02 up, maybe just wait until they were older than 10 days...
And hire someone else to actually put them into the chamber and turn on the gas....(don't think I could throw them at anything or even flick them for that matter!!)
As I am a bit too soft maybe I will just keep paying through the nose for frozen mice! let someone else have it on thier mind....it was just a thought

[GarterGuy]

I would rather pay a little more to kill them quickly and humanely..
If I set the C02 up, maybe just wait until they were older than 10 days...
And hire someone else to actually put them into the chamber and turn on the gas....(don't think I could throw them at anything or even flick them for that matter!!)
As I am a bit too soft maybe I will just keep paying through the nose for frozen mice! let someone else have it on thier mind....it was just a thought

Hey I don't blame you one bit. I used to do the nose flick and such. Even used to snap bunny necks with my hands if needed, while I was working at the pet store. Counldn't do that now though.....I don't feed anything alive, unless it's crickets or mealworms (even cockroaches get to me....I had some as pets!). Yeh, I'd rather let someone else worry about doing in my mice....and I'll just hope it was done well.

[Cazador]

Hi all,
I just wanted to sort of discourage the carbon monoxide (CO) idea because it has a really high affinity for the iron molecule in hemoglobin, and essentially binds irreversibly. That means the CO will remain in a red blood cell until the cell dies, and they normally have an approximately 60 day lifespan. Even if all the red blood cells ruptured during freezing, the lack of a functional circulatory system would prevent its release from within the mouse. There is also the distinct possibility that you might euthanize yourself while administering the CO to the mouse. Keep it safe,
Rick

[nessy]

ah, you've got a point... my bad... sorry

[abcat1993]

Woah, Rick, You're just too smart for me. So, if you use Carbon Monoxide, then you freeze it, and your snake eats it, it will get poisoned?

[CrazyHedgehog]

Yep, I think thats what hes saying..
C02 is a pure gas, the body makes it anyway..
But Carbon Monoxide (as in car fumes) is extremely poisonous!

[Cazador]

Yup. The carbon monoxide lingers for a long time and is extremely harmful. Even if you freeze your dead mice, it will be transferred to your snake.

No worries, Nessie. You might have just saved someone a bad experience by bringing it up. Cheers,
Rick

[KITKAT]

Having raised mice for sale to herpers in the past...

I froze my pinkies, up until eyes were opened. This is because they are cold blooded similar to herps until the eyes open.

Now as to humane methods... the trick is to freeze them in a way that they don't feel the creeping cold...

When you put pinkies in a bag and lay them directly on a cold surface in the freezer, they can feel the cold because it is sudden. So what you want to do is place a paper towel or two under the pinkies.

Most pinkies will be dead in less than three minutes, but I always froze mine for at least 10 minutes before opening the package and removing the paper towel.

Impact killing is not painless for pinkies because their brain is not developed enough to cut off the rest of the central nervous system. Cervical seperation (broken or pinched neck) is also not effective on pinkies for the same reason.

Impact killing can cause lesions (breaks) in the skin, and that leads to dessication during storage, as well as giving bacteria a foothold for invasion of the stored body.

So I suggest freezing as above.

[CrazyHedgehog]

KitKat thank you, that has helped! no need to build a gas chamber yet then, (and put my mind at rest!, a little)

[Cazador]

I froze my pinkies, up until eyes were opened. This is because they are cold blooded similar to herps until the eyes open.

Just to be clear, I think Kitkat was speaking figuratively since all mammals are warm blooded (endothermic). Small organisms have more surface area (skin) per unit of mass (volume), so they gain or lose heat more rapidly (like reptiles) than larger individuals do. Pinkies also lack hair and have minimal fat, so they have less insulation. This allows them to die and freeze quickly.

I won't offer an opinion on the most humane way to kill them because I think it's debatable and largely a matter of personal preference.

[CrazyHedgehog]

I won't offer an opinion on the most humane way to kill them because I think it's debatable and largely a matter of personal preference.

I do understand that, but would still appreciate your oppinion, maybe send me a private message if you feel it may contradict others?
Or maybe I should rephrase to how I definately shouldn't kill them, things to avoid... and see what options I am left with...

[Cazador]

PM is on the way, but this topic isn't my area of expertise. It's just another opinion ;).

[abcat1993]

Now that I think about it, if I had to pick up a mouse and kill it (by any method listed in earlier posts) I would probably feel sorry for the thing and put it back with it's mom. On the other hand I might just be too scared to take it away from it's mom in the first place (I've been bitten several times pretty badly from my gerbils).

[CrazyHedgehog]

I know....I haven't even bought a single mouse to start yet, but still I am worried that we are going to end up with 400 'pet' mice!!!

[KITKAT]

OK... a clarification is needed I see!

I was not speaking figuratively.

There are actually four terms for how animals thermoregulate.

Ectothermic = an animal that gains needed heat from the environment

Endothermic = an animal that gains needed heat from physiological processes

Homeothermic = an animal that seeks to (needs to) maintain a constant body temperature.

Poikilothermic = an animal whose temperature naturally varies.

Adult mice are mostly endothermic and homeothermic. They are capable of keeping a constant body temperature by utilizing their own physiological processes. Only in extreme temperatures do they resort to insulated nests to prevent freezing.

Newborn mice are mostly ectothermic and homeothermic. In other words, they need a constant body temperature to remain healthy and alive, but they cannot maintain that constant temp by means of physiology - they must rely on the parent mouse, and an insulted nest to maintain the needed internal temperatures.

Remove those environmental factors, and the newborn mouse will die. The speed at which it dies will depend on the environmental temperatures to which it is exposed. That speed will also be hastened by lack of body mass, lack of body fat, and a physiological thermoregulation process that is not complete until the baby mouse is more mature.

One cannot be sure what the newborn mouse feels as it freezes, but the process LOOKS similar to that experienced by a reptile going into brumation. The heart and respiration gradually slow, the movements slow, and the newborn mouse appears to lack mental alertness as the temperature drops. There is no shivering, the squirming is not violent or frantic in appearance, and the processes of the mouse just slow down.

Due to lack of body mass, the newborn mouse does not last long when exposed to freezing temperatures, and the entire process is usually finished in a few minutes.


Just to be clear, I think Kitkat was speaking figuratively since all mammals are warm blooded (endothermic). Small organisms have more surface area (skin) per unit of mass (volume), so they gain or lose heat more rapidly (like reptiles) than larger individuals do. Pinkies also lack hair and have minimal fat, so they have less insulation. This allows them to die and freeze quickly.

I won't offer an opinion on the most humane way to kill them because I think it's debatable and largely a matter of personal preference.

[suzoo]

You guys are way too nice! And I admit, I do have a few pet mice, but if I get attached to one in paticular, I raise it as a breeder. I have never had a pinkie or fuzzy stay alive more than a few minutes in the freezer, and if one of them bites me, they are thrown on the floor (or against the wall) by automatic reaction to being bitten. I play and love my breeder mice, but I have had experience in overpopulations, and even cleaning cages every day THEY STINK! So putting the babies in the freezer does not bother me, and I leave one to three on mom to grow.
Suzoo

[CrazyHedgehog]

Ok, I think I am happy with the pinkies freezing in tissue paper.....

but on to bigger mice, I found a great article on the effects of C02 and how to make home made gas chambers, how to make cheap C02...

Small animal euthanasia at home (http://www.alysion.org/euthanasia/)

[Stefan-A]

Hi all,
I just wanted to sort of discourage the carbon monoxide (CO) idea because it has a really high affinity for the iron molecule in hemoglobin, and essentially binds irreversibly. That means the CO will remain in a red blood cell until the cell dies, and they normally have an approximately 60 day lifespan. Even if all the red blood cells ruptured during freezing, the lack of a functional circulatory system would prevent its release from within the mouse. There is also the distinct possibility that you might euthanize yourself while administering the CO to the mouse. Keep it safe,
Rick
Feel free to correct me:

The impression I got from last week's chemistry class (I study sustainable development and the course is very ecology/biology oriented, so much of the focus has been on carbon and oxygen), the body uses iron (certain animals use copper) in hemoglobin to bind and transport oxygen and CO is attracted to that oxygen. The reason is that CO is unstable and by attaching itself to that O, it creates CO2 and becomes stable. It doesn't stay CO, it becomes CO2 in the body. Disclaimer: it wouldn't surprise me if this explanation was wrong, I wouldn't expect a chemistry teacher to know the first thing about biology. Most explanations suggest that CO just replaces the O in the protein and none of them seem to consider it a direct health hazard when consumed (as opposed to inhaled). According to wikipedia CO is even used to treat seafood and beef?

[abcat1993]

But who knows who can change Wikapedia.

[Stefan-A]

It's not just in wikipedia.

[Cazador]

Hemoglobin (Hb) transports O2 from the lungs to working tissues, including muscles, the brain, etc., and transports CO2 away from those tissues to the lungs to be exhaled. The reason Carbon Monoxide is so lethal is that its binding affinity for Hb is more than 200 times greater than O2's affinity for Hb. It doesn't become converted into CO2, it shuts down the O2/CO2 transport system. If your tissues can't get fresh O2, they can't make ATP (energy source); they die; and if the damage is widespread enough, or affects a critical system, that's it... you die!

CO also has another toxic mechanism of action. It's able to penetrate the outer layer of cells (lipid bilayer) and enter cells. Then it acts as a neurotransmitter and binds with the iron molecules in an enzyme (guanylyl cyclase) that regulates the second messenger cyclic GMP. cGMP then amplifies other processes to stimulate action within the cell. This is a natural process that is finely regulated in the brain and elsewhere. If, however, this pathway is activated inappropriately, and for too long, it can have serious consequences that depend on the degree of exposure.

Putting all this physiology aside, you've probably heard that CO is lethal because of people using it to kill themselves by breathing the exhaust of a running car in their garage. CO poisoning is also a major cause of death after people are "rescued" from burning buildings. They're given hyperbaric oxygen treatment to try to displace the CO from their Hb.

Sorry, but I don't know much about food processing, but I doubt CO would penetrate deeply into meat without a functional circulatory or neural system. Hope this helps,
Rick

[Stefan-A]

Thanks, just needed to get it cleared up.

I know I ask a lot of stupid questions, but I'd rather sound stupid and maybe learn something, than just stay ignorant.

[Cazador]

I don't think that at all, Stefan. Your questions (and statements) show a lot of intelligence and a level of curiosity that I respect. I think it will serve you well through school and life. Best regards,
Rick

[Stefan-A]

I should still know better. The funny thing is, we have gone through the CO issue before in school, even if it was a decade and a half ago.

[ClosedCasket88]

yeah a good baseball throw usualy works for pinkies . older mice i just hold by the tail and whack em and a table of somesort, soemtimes the tops of my cages , but occasional nose bleeds make things messy . i know of people who build throw boxes , all of a foot by a foot wide just to throw them into something to keep things a bit cleaner.

you think freezing and killing mice is bad you should see how hard it is to get baby chicks to die . theyl keep chirpin n runnin around no matter what , i always make sure i buy my chicks frozen, thats not a fun thing to deal with , poor little guys

[jewel-dragons]

i only feed pinky's alive... because i breed them...

[wisema2297]

I am new here but will share my experiences. CO2 will not kill new born mice. They have a reflex that keeps them from suffocating. I simply freeze them in an air tight bag. Since they have such a high surface to area ratio they freeze very fast (2-3 minutes). I know this sounds inhumane, but it's the only way i can think of to store hundreds at a time. I do not raise adult mice so I can't comment on storing them. I just raise pinkies for my corn snake hatchlings ( and hopefully my garter if I can convert him) and when I have enough stored I feed the adult mice to my adult corns.

[Cazador]

Welcome to the forum Ralph,
It's hard to beat first hand experience, so thanks for sharing. Also, thanks for adding your photo to the contest. It's truely one-of-a-kind!
Rick

[suzoo]

My husband says the quickest way to kill the adult mice is to put them in a 5 gallon bucket with a lid, and put the garden hose in and fill it. Then walk away for 5 minutes. Have heard drownding is one of the easiest ways to go. And they freeze nicely afterwards.

[zirliz]

I'm pretty sure they ones I buy have had their noses crushed as there's dry blood seems cruel

[CrazyHedgehog]

My husband says the quickest way to kill the adult mice is to put them in a 5 gallon bucket with a lid, and put the garden hose in and fill it. Then walk away for 5 minutes. Have heard drownding is one of the easiest ways to go. And they freeze nicely afterwards.
...Yes maybe, but the mice would panic....I would feel worse than I do already....agggghhh

have requested a price for large C02 cannisters (the 4ft to 6ft bottles) in the long run, I think it may be cheaper than the bicarb and vinegar...apparently because of the quietness of the release of gas, the mice don't hear it and so just pass out without realising anything is wrong....much better for my concsience....

Oh why can't my snakes be vegetarians....(are there any vegetarian snakes?)

[Stefan-A]

What about electrocution?

[suzoo]

Oh why can't my snakes be vegetarians....(are there any vegetarian snakes?)

Rough Green snakes eat crickets and wax worms :)

[RedSided]

The mice I get are thrown against a wall as far as I know

[Gyre]

Somebody i know drownd a nest of chipmonks one time, and it wasn't very humane at all.. Thaty swam around for twenty minutes. Pinkies, eyes and ears closed.

[adamanteus]

I just pick mine up by the base of the tail then whack them sharply on the edge of something. It's instant lights out.

[abcat1993]

Pinkies can swim?

[CrazyHedgehog]

OK, well the official line from RSPCA is to...(wasn't i brave asking them!)

For pinkies.... wrap them in tissue paper, place them on a pre frozen tray, put in freezer..

older mice, use C02 gas very slowly increasing until they pass out, then once unconscous flood chamber with c02.

[zirliz]

I've just gotten a pair of breeding mice how long before I can expect babies?
that does sound the best method seems how It's illegal to feed living to snakes here

[KITKAT]

I've just gotten a pair of breeding mice how long before I can expect babies?
that does sound the best method seems how It's illegal to feed living to snakes here

The gestation of the house mouse (white mice sold in pet stores) is 19 days. If the female mouse is nursing a litter, she will also be pregnant at the same time. And when she is pregnant and nursing at the same time, the gestation is delayed and may be as long as 26 days.

:cool:

[zirliz]

Like Kangeroos then, thanks for that