San Francisco's

[LukeBonham]

Hey there,
I was just wondering if there was anyone here in Canada working with Tetrataenia and if so what do you sell your offspring for?
Thanks,
Luke

[Boots]

I think you are going to have to get in line. :) I saw a pair for sale last week, but they were already sold when I called. The asking price was not cheap either. $2000.00 for the pair.

Jason

[Cazador]

Jason,
I saw on another thread that you were looking for some new garters and was wondering what type you were looking at. Is your heart set on the tetrataenia, or do you have other species in mind as well? I'm not knocking the tetrataenia, of course.

All,
How much do they sell for in Europe (USD if possible)?
Rick

[boeh]

Hi there

On this way it is allowed to keep them in Canada?

@Boots
That's really expensive, I should sell my tetrataenias to some canadians....mhm, no ;-)

Cyrill

[Boots]

I think they were a breeding pair which is why they were so much. The highest I had hear them selling for before was $1500 CAD for a pair. I think the desire to own a pair comes from the fact that they are not very common. Of course the sheer beauty of them does not hurt either.

Jason

[GarterGuy]

Ok...I have to ask....are the Canadian T.s.tertataenia from the same breeding stock as the European?....or are new bloodlines somehow getting into Canada? I find it's a real shame that a snake that's so easy to breed in captivity like T.s.ssp...is not allowed, because they claim it'd be too hard to differentiate between captive bred and wild caught animals. The fact that T.s.tetrataenia may dissapeer from the US due to habitat loss and other environmental factors is insane. Other federally protected species are being captive bred. Is it really any easier to tell the difference between a captive bred Eastern Indigo (Drymarchon corais couperi) and a wild caught one....they're federally protected, but still show up for sale. Just doesn't seem right!:mad:

[Boots]

As far as I know the ones in Canada are from European stock.

Jason

[Cazador]

That's my understanding as well.

[boeh]

That's very sad. It would be a very big advantage if they were from another bloodline. As far as I know are there 2 differrent bloodlines in Europe. One from the zoo of Rotterdam and one from a private person from austria, which could import some years ago (however - I don't know). However, as far as I know were they mixed up already. A "clean" third line would be relieving, by thinking at the incest problems which already exist.

Best,
Cyrill

[Snaky]

I heard there was even only 1 bloodline, that from the zoo of Rotterdam. The other one does not exist, it's just a made-up story, have I heard.

[boeh]

This is the first time I read something like that. That means not, that I can't believe that. I'm just upset about that. Did someone else heard that?

[snakeman]

There are other bloodlines.There has to be a lot of black market snakes getting out there with a hefty price tag like that.Thye poach the hell out of spotted turtles in my area.They only go for a couple hundred a pair.Imagine if they were 2000 a pair.They would disappear real fast.

[sschind]

If, more likely when, they go extinct in the wild will that mean they will then be legal to keep in the US. there will be no need to differentiate between CB and WC then.

[ssssnakeluvr]

There's a lot more indigos than san frans in the wild. Last estimate I read put the total estimated number of them at about 15oo left inthe wild...sucks... Hopefully some of us can get enough experience that when they dwindle down real low that we will be allowed to breed to help repopulate the species...I would LOVE that!!

[Markus18]

in a magazine called draco was a special about garter snakes and in the special stands that somebody broken in in the san francisco zoo and steal the san francisco garter snakes!:(

[Gijs & Sabine]

This is the first time I read something like that. That means not, that I can't believe that. I'm just upset about that. Did someone else heard that?

We've heard something like that as well:( But I think it's all a big question, nobody knows for sure how many bloodlines there are. And like Snakeman said, there's a possebility for black market snakes as well.

[LukeBonham]

From what I have read, their numbers aren't in any real danger of further decline unless poaching is taking place with the adult specimens. Although there numbers are low due to habitat degradation, most of their remaning range is now protected. Each year in the spring their numbers increase but again decrease as there isn't enough resources to support a larger population. Maybe it wouldn't be such a shame if some new babies made their way up into Canada.

[abcat1993]

I doubt that they could live in Canada (but I'm not that educated on where these live exactly and how).

[GarterGuy]

From what I have read, their numbers aren't in any real danger of further decline unless poaching is taking place with the adult specimens. Although there numbers are low due to habitat degradation, most of their remaning range is now protected. Each year in the spring their numbers increase but again decrease as there isn't enough resources to support a larger population. Maybe it wouldn't be such a shame if some new babies made their way up into Canada.


Another problem though,is the fact that even the land that has been put aside for them is changing. In the wild, they feed specifically on amphibians...particularily on redlegged frogs...which are becoming rarer and rarer. So as the environment becomes unable to have their food source, their numbers will suffer as well....no matter how much land is put aside. What really sucks is the fact that it'd be really easy to establish a good, genetically viable captive bred population. There would be no need to be taking large numbers from the wild and with captive bred animals being readily available, the poaching of wild animals wouldn't be as much a factor. Who would pay hundreds for blackmarket wild caught snakes, when even better captive bred and born animals would be avaiable.

[sschind]

Another problem though,is the fact that even the land that has been put aside for them is changing. In the wild, they feed specifically on amphibians...particularily on redlegged frogs...which are becoming rarer and rarer. So as the environment becomes unable to have their food source, their numbers will suffer as well....no matter how much land is put aside. What really sucks is the fact that it'd be really easy to establish a good, genetically viable captive bred population. There would be no need to be taking large numbers from the wild and with captive bred animals being readily available, the poaching of wild animals wouldn't be as much a factor. Who would pay hundreds for blackmarket wild caught snakes, when even better captive bred and born animals would be avaiable.

If the price for the CB specimens was more you can bet there would be plenty of people lining up to get the blackmarket ones just to save a few bucks.

Believe it or not, In a way I can understand laws like this. How would one go about documenting that the baby garters you have are CB and not WC. How would enforcement officials go about proving the opposite. Until a better way of showing this, it will always be cheaper to go with an all out ban than adding a CB provision. In this day and age with budget cuts and everything I doubt if you will see many states adopting measures that will either cost more money or make laws harder to enforce.

[jewel-dragons]

when it was possible,i will change 20 san francisco's just for one from the usa.... just for the new bloodline....
but i think that's impossible....

i was thinking to cross the tetrataenia with the infernalis,and then later the hatchlings cross again with the tetrataenia's,i think the specie will be much stronger again,but i think that we get hybrides and that is not the answer.....

[Thamnophis]

Crossing with infernalis is not a good idea. By the way, this gives nu hybrids, but integrades.

But next to that, there is òne official bloodline in Europe (that from Blijdorp Zoo who got them from Jersey Zoo on Guernsey) as far as I know.
The line from Austria seems to have never existed.

But... I am almost certain that there are tetrataenia´s illegally imported in the last twenty years ore so. I have no prove for this though...

[jewel-dragons]

Crossing with infernalis is not a good idea. By the way, this gives nu hybrids, but integrades.

But next to that, there is òne official bloodline in Europe (that from Blijdorp Zoo who got them from Jersey Zoo on Guernsey) as far as I know.
The line from Austria seems to have never existed.

But... I am almost certain that there are tetrataenia´s illegally imported in the last twenty years ore so. I have no prove for this though...
okay but when i cross the baby's agaim with the tetrataenia's,i get stronger animals?

[GarterGuy]

when it was possible,i will change 20 san francisco's just for one from the usa.... just for the new bloodline....
but i think that's impossible....

i was thinking to cross the tetrataenia with the infernalis,and then later the hatchlings cross again with the tetrataenia's,i think the specie will be much stronger again,but i think that we get hybrides and that is not the answer.....


Actually I think Alan Francis is already doing this with his T.s.tertataenia, to try and get some "fresh blood" into them. You won't actually be creating a hybrid.....T.s.tertaenia and T.s.infernalis are just subspecies that actually used to cross at one time. When it comes right down to it....a T.s.tertaenia is just a T.s.infernalis with stripes instead of the red bars when you really look at them. Personally I don't know how I feel about this, I like the idea of having "pure" subspecies, but at the same time, for the sake of the SanFrans. getting some genetic diversity in them, I can't argue with it. I mean let's face it.....all the snakes in captivity now are so removed from what they were in the wild anyways. If this is the only way to keep this subspecies somewhat viable....I say go for it!

[Thamnophis]

If you put infernalis in tetrataenia, you have no tetrataenia anymore.
So personally I want to keep my animals as pure as possible.

By the way... Two thousand dollar for a pair T. s. tetrataenia´s is a lot of money!!
I bought my three specimen for € 75,--, € 110,-- and € 125,--. This are the normal prices for juveniles in Holland (and the rest of Europe?)
Do not know the prices for adult specimen, but more than the double of what I mentioned for juveniles it will not be.

[sschind]

If you put infernalis in tetrataenia, you have no tetrataenia anymore.
So personally I want to keep my animals as pure as possible.



I agree, why bother with the whole subspecies thing if intergrading them will become the acceptable practice. It doesn't matter to me if it is a rare subspecies or a common one. If there are going to be subspecific classification it needs to be kept pure.

I remember a few years back the fish and wildlife service was considering crossing the few (less than 10 I believe) dusky seaside sparrows (a Florida songbird) with the more common seaside sparrow. My thoughts were the same then. What is the point? you didn't save a species from extinction you polluted the whole lot.

[Stefan-A]

I remember a few years back the fish and wildlife service was considering crossing the few (less than 10 I believe) dusky seaside sparrows (a Florida songbird) with the more common seaside sparrow. My thoughts were the same then. What is the point? you didn't save a species from extinction you polluted the whole lot.
I think it's slightly different. Purity is less of a problem in the wild, as long as the outcome is an animal that can fill the same ecological niche. Saving a species shouldn't be an end in itself, it has to serve a purpose. I'm not saying that it could fill the same niche in this case, but with less than 10 individuals you'd be getting desperate and that solution seems more desperate than purely idiotic.
In captivity (and I don't mean conservation programs), keeping the lines pure serves no other purpose than satisfying the keepers.

[Snaky]

If you put infernalis in tetrataenia, you have no tetrataenia anymore.
So personally I want to keep my animals as pure as possible.

By the way... Two thousand dollar for a pair T. s. tetrataenia´s is a lot of money!!
I bought my three specimen for € 75,--, € 110,-- and € 125,--. This are the normal prices for juveniles in Holland (and the rest of Europe?)
Do not know the prices for adult specimen, but more than the double of what I mentioned for juveniles it will not be.
In Belgium the price you pay is a bit more... It will be more in the range 125-150€. So I always buy everything in Holland:D (Also of course the fact that you'll have to try very hard to find good breeders in belgium for thamnophis )

[Thamnophis]

Maybe, if there are only less than 10 individuals of a certain (sub-)species you better let nature do what it does. The free niche will be taken by another species or subspecies.
Sinde there are living creatures on this globe there has been extinction of species.

[abcat1993]

Is it still considered extinct if there are specimens in captivity?

[Cazador]

They're just considered "extinct in the wild" if they only exist in captivity.

[abcat1993]

Not to get off topic but how many species of animals are extinct in the wild?

[Stefan-A]

Maybe, if there are only less than 10 individuals of a certain (sub-)species you better let nature do what it does. The free niche will be taken by another species or subspecies.
Sinde there are living creatures on this globe there has been extinction of species.
In certain cases there isn't even a niche to be taken, which is why the species is becoming extinct in the first place. But I don't know if it's right to say that you are better off in every case. Sooner or later the niche (if there is one) will be taken, but how the temporary vacuum effects us, is something that should be taken into consideration. If that species of bird had been the only species specializing in a certain disease-carrying insect, we'd be better off keeping it alive. Another species will emerge sooner or later, but it takes time.

[Cazador]

Here's an interesting thought... if the San Francisco garters diverged from other sympatric T. sirtalis in the San Francisco area to fill the niche available (i.e. specializing on toxic CA red-legged frogs), then the evolutionary arms race may have outpaced their ability to adapt (evolve) due to the bottleneck effect (limited genetic variation as a result of a relatively limited population size). Habitat degredation and destruction have no doubt been contributing factors, but I like the idea that the evolutionary arms race may have outpaced their ability to evolve, as Cascabel suggested. It's part of a very interesting hypothesis.

[LukeBonham]

Hey guys interesting replies. I am still wondering though if there is anyone else in Canada working with Tetrataenia? Let me know.
Thanks,
Luke

[sauceman]

I don't know if this topic will be active anymore, but I am happy to report that me and two friends found and observed a total of eight wild tetrataenia yesterday. It was my first time seeing them in the wild and I have tried for some time. It was a very exciting and rewarding thing to see them moving about in their natural habitat and that particular population seems to be doing quite well.

[ConcinusMan]

I've seen them numerous times and there's never a shortage of them. There's always quite a few out. Just have to get out there very early on a weekday (less people, cold basking snakes)

As for the population "doing quite well" that has never really been an issue. The issue has been that their numbers cannot increase due to lack of suitable habitat capable of supporting more snakes, fragmented pockets of habitat isolating the snakes creating genetic bottleneck, and the populations that do exist are extremely vulnerable to environmental disasters and crashes in their food supply, man-caused or not.

Yes, the numbers are fairly stable. Yes, population density in the suitable habitat is high. They are still teetering on the edge of the abyss in the wild. One little thing goes wrong and they're gone overnight.

I still believe this is a subspecies that was probably already in significant decline and stuck on an "island" of suitable habitat long before man came along and made things much worse. Of course, they could have went on for many more thousands of years like that and probably already did.


In certain cases there isn't even a niche to be taken, which is why the species is becoming extinct in the first place.

Good point. In this case, the niche, if present, would be easily filled by other garters present in the area. Much more adaptable and less specialized and vulnerable garters at that.

[guidofatherof5]

S.F. Garter snake Info.

Untitled Document (http://drake.marin.k12.ca.us/academics/seadisc/endangeredspecies/2010/Maddie%20Julin/Index.html)


Species Profile for San Francisco Garter snake (Thamnophis sirtalis tetrataenia) (http://ecos.fws.gov/speciesProfile/profile/speciesProfile.action?spcode=C002)

http://ecos.fws.gov/docs/recovery_plan/850911.pdf

[guidofatherof5]

Restore Sharp Park video

FynQwS3Ovo8

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Sharp_Park_Golf_Course.jpg

[katach]

Where do I sign?

[guidofatherof5]

The San Francisco Garter Snake in Canada - gartersnake.info (http://www.gartersnake.info/articles/the_san_francis.php)

[Thamnophis]

The San Francisco Garter Snake in Canada - gartersnake.info (http://www.gartersnake.info/articles/the_san_francis.php)

In the interview he says:


(Phil sells them for $1,600 a pair — on par with their European price and justifiable given their scarcity, but easily the highest price ever commanded for a natricine snake in Canada.)

Prices in the Netherlands are: 80 - 100 euro for a juvenile San Francisco gartersnake.

Everyone who is willing to pay me 1600 dollar for a pair is invited to sleep over one night, including breakfast, when he comes and picks them up :D.

[kibakiba]

If I lived somewhere other than America, I might have taken you up on that offer :p
Free breakfast is always worth it...! Hehe.

[Thamnophis]

Dutch breakfast contains, amongs others...


http://images.travelpod.co.uk/users/tmm/1.1273153119.a-dutch-breakfast-treat.jpg


http://www.vrouwonline.nl/img/blog/k4a.jpg


http://www.tjalfsparnaay.nl/overview/images/boterham_kaas_gr.jpg

[kibakiba]

Looks good... As long as there isn't too much dairy ;)
Dairy would have me sick all day... Haha.

Dang it, now I'm hungry...

[Stefan-A]

Dutch breakfast contains, amongs others...


http://images.travelpod.co.uk/users/tmm/1.1273153119.a-dutch-breakfast-treat.jpg


http://www.vrouwonline.nl/img/blog/k4a.jpg


http://www.tjalfsparnaay.nl/overview/images/boterham_kaas_gr.jpg
Well, it's healthier than my breakfast.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/shouldseewhatipoop1.jpg

[RedSidedSPR]

Hey cool I thought I was the only omë who ate that stuff!:p

[kibakiba]

Gives a whole new meaning to pooping bullets.

[guidofatherof5]

SF Garter Snake (http://creagrus.home.montereybay.com/CAsnakeSFGarter.html)

[guidofatherof5]

Not-So-Common Garters (http://www.anapsid.org/garters.html)

[chris-uk]

I'm curious. How many people who read this forum actually own a San Francisco at the moment? The thread goes back a few years, so I think there's a few people who do have them. Anyone in Europe actively breeding them?

[guidofatherof5]

Thamnophis sirtalis tetrataenia - San Francisco Gartersnake (http://www.californiaherps.com/snakes/pages/t.s.tetrataenia.html)

[RedSidedSPR]

Udo, the portal page contest winner (zooplan) for one.

Stefan has one I think.

Lots of people in the UK, as long as they're not in the US it's legal.

[Stefan-A]

Stefan has one I think.

Correct.

They're not that uncommon on this side of the Atlantic.

[chris-uk]

Correct.

They're not that uncommon on this side of the Atlantic.

Stefan - What's the gene pool looking like nowdays? I did read about fresh genetic stock making it to Europe, but also that the European lines are increasingly in-bred. I'm going to keep my eye on San Frans, maybe in a year or two I'll look for someone who is breeding them.

[guidofatherof5]

Stefan - What's the gene pool looking like nowdays? I did read about fresh genetic stock making it to Europe

What have you heard? Rumors or something concrete?

[RedSidedSPR]

Concrete rumors perhaps?:p

[chris-uk]

What have you heard? Rumors or something concrete?

No, it was a rumour on another forum. Someone had heard from someone at a meet, who had no doubt heard from someone who kept pythons. I certainly didn't read much into it, and I think if new stock has made it to Europe it's been illegally collected and anyone involved isn't going to admit anything.
They are beautiful snakes, and to be honest if I did decide to go looking for some I'd want to find two from lines that are as distinct as possible. At the moment I couldn't commit to what I'd want to do, which would be to get a pair breeding and help maintain the sub-specied in captivity.

[guidofatherof5]

Thanks.

[Thamnophis]

I have 2.2 adults and a number of juveniles. But the last mentioned will all be sold at the Snakeday tomorrow in Houten, Netherlands.
One of the pairs is an older male and a female that I bred two years ago. So normally they give me some young next year.
The rumour of fresh blood coming into Europe re-appears every few years, but there has never been any proof.

[sirtalis01]

I wish they would be bred in captivity in the US but they are not..tetras are beautiful....I'm planing a trip to San Francisco next year I have a few friends that will serve as guides, it would be awesome to take some pix of wild tetras

[chris-uk]

I have 2.2 adults and a number of juveniles. But the last mentioned will all be sold at the Snakeday tomorrow in Houten, Netherlands.
One of the pairs is an older male and a female that I bred two years ago. So normally they give me some young next year.
The rumour of fresh blood coming into Europe re-appears every few years, but there has never bee
n any proof.how far back can you trace your bloodline? Its good to know fhat there's someone kn fhe forum that has a good breeding pair. I'd consider a trip to Holland to get a tetra. Maybe a trip to Houten next year - tomorrow would be a bit too soon. Are yours all sold before you get to Snakeday?

[guidofatherof5]

I believe Udo has a wealth of information with regards to the S.F. garter in Europe.