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Thamnophis
05-07-2008, 01:07 PM
The month of May is clearly a month in which many garter snakes are born.
The matingseason is over. now it is time for births.

The garter snakes that could be sexually active did not start mating or so
after the hibernation, so I placed my T. sirtalis tetrataenia and T.
atratus atratus together in the fireplace terrarium.

On May 1st the female tetra shed her skin. And before I knew what was
happening one of the males of atratus started copulating with the tetra
wife.

Look at the pics.


http://www.kousebandslangen.nl/copulation00.jpg

This the female...

http://www.kousebandslangen.nl/copulation01.jpg

She copulated with him.

http://www.kousebandslangen.nl/copulation02.jpg

The two male tetraīs look at how their...

http://www.kousebandslangen.nl/copulation03.jpg

... female copulates with a "strange" male.

http://www.kousebandslangen.nl/copulation04.jpg

The atratus does what a male has to do.

http://www.kousebandslangen.nl/copulation05.jpg

After a copulation of a few hours they relaxed under the lamp. The only
thing that is missing is the cigarette...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This was not intended. Wether this produces young snakes is something we have to wait for.

Let this be a warning when you combine two or more species.
Snake lover 3-25
05-07-2008, 01:09 PM
ooooo if they do... and you want to get rid of them.............. I WANT ONE!!!!!!!!:D
ssssnakeluvr
05-07-2008, 01:10 PM
Sweet tetras!!!!!!!! Man I want some of them!!!!! big oops...we shall see what happens.... I'm not real big on hybrids...but might produce some interesting looking snakes :eek:
Thamnophis
05-07-2008, 01:11 PM
It's a long way from New York to the Netherlands...

But serious, if there are young born, they principally stay with me.
anji1971
05-07-2008, 01:26 PM
Well, you just can't stop true love!!!!:D
I'm interested to see if there are any babies, and what they'll look like.

And that picture of the tetra boys watching their girl mate with the atratus is priceless!:cool:
todaelaguadelmar
05-07-2008, 01:36 PM
Wow, letīs see what happens, (i donīt think u want to stop such an interesant pregnancy.)
What to say??? Congratulations?????
Stefan-A
05-07-2008, 01:44 PM
And that picture of the tetra boys watching their girl mate with the atratus is priceless!:cool:
[Insert San Francisco joke here] ;)
enigma200316
05-07-2008, 01:46 PM
let me start by saying they are some seriuosly awsome looking tetra's......
and who knows what may come of it, maybe some neat looking hybrids, that of course would stay with you, but I'm thinking more of maybe if there are young...you can document it and keep as a resource type thing or whatever.....................but once again awsome tetra's, and the artratus ins't a bad looker either........thanks for sharing and keep us updated please........................;):D
Snake lover 3-25
05-07-2008, 02:25 PM
wait... so if they did have babies you would keep ALL of them????? Why?????
aSnakeLovinBabe
05-07-2008, 04:21 PM
because he does not want hybridized snakes leaking out into the public and what not... people will sell them as something they are not and they could end up poisoning bloodlines of snakes.
Snake lover 3-25
05-07-2008, 04:25 PM
oooooo but people here wouldn't do that....... LOL or would they???? i understand....... so.... what will you do with them all?????
EdgyExoticReptiles
05-07-2008, 04:46 PM
yah i would normally agree if it was like an eastern and a maritime or something that looks close to the same butt i doubt the babies will look like either

because he does not want hybridized snakes leaking out into the public and what not... people will sell them as something they are not and they could end up poisoning bloodlines of snakes.
Stefan-A
05-07-2008, 04:52 PM
Okay, I have to ask. Wasn't it obvious that this would happen?
adamanteus
05-07-2008, 04:56 PM
Okay, I have to ask. Wasn't it obvious that this would happen?

I would say there was a high degree of probability!:D
aSnakeLovinBabe
05-07-2008, 05:03 PM
yah i would normally agree if it was like an eastern and a maritime or something that looks close to the same butt i doubt the babies will look like either


doesn't matter.. if they get into the wrong hands down the road... you will surely see someone on kingsnake.com... NEW RED STRIPED ATRATUS... THESE GUYS ARE PURE AND THEY HAVE GORGEOUS RED MARKINGS THEY CAN BE YOURS FOR ONLY $5892859!!!
aSnakeLovinBabe
05-07-2008, 05:05 PM
Either way, I think that it will be neat to see what comes of it. If there are babies on the way, I will enjoy watching them grow!
adamanteus
05-07-2008, 05:06 PM
King Snake food.
Stefan-A
05-07-2008, 05:09 PM
King Snake food.
Or food for pacman frogs.
Snake lover 3-25
05-07-2008, 06:07 PM
no!!!! i want some....:(:(:(:(:( MEAN!!!!!!
aSnakeLovinBabe
05-07-2008, 06:35 PM
well that's not very nice now. at least give them a chance at life!
drache
05-07-2008, 08:04 PM
we don't even know that they won't all be jellybeans
Stefan-A
05-08-2008, 12:27 AM
Is there any simple way of sterilizing snakes? No joke, it would solve the problem.
Loren
05-08-2008, 02:23 AM
They are all found in the same area, Maybe they will come out Coast garters (T. elegans terrestris) :D.

Be crazy wouldnt it?
Thamnophis
05-08-2008, 02:52 AM
because he does not want hybridized snakes leaking out into the public and what not... people will sell them as something they are not and they could end up poisoning bloodlines of snakes.

Exactly!

There are some people I trust who keep garter snakes and if they would want one, I might consider it, but it would be o difficult call. I have to be sure that they do not get used in reproduction again.

But first I have to wait if she is pregnant and if the young are okay.
Thamnophis
05-08-2008, 02:55 AM
Okay, I have to ask. Wasn't it obvious that this would happen?

Yep, looking back it was.

But they were already a few months out of hibernation.
And never showed any matingbehaviour.
And the female already had shed close after the hibernation.
Thamnophis
05-08-2008, 02:57 AM
well that's not very nice now. at least give them a chance at life!

Indeed, I do not intend to kill them when there is no good reason.

And I know my responsibility if it comes to it. :cool:
Stefan-A
05-08-2008, 04:55 AM
Yep, looking back it was.
Point taken.
Snaky
05-08-2008, 05:04 AM
King Snake food.
Actually this is what I would do. Feed them till they are a bit bigger and then give them to my kingsnakes.
Thamnophis
05-09-2008, 12:03 AM
Actually this is what I would do. Feed them till they are a bit bigger and then give them to my kingsnakes.

And maybe this (or something like this) is what is going to happen. Who knows.
But I first want to see what happens during the growing up.
aSnakeLovinBabe
05-09-2008, 09:05 PM
im sorry but I think thats really wrong... they are garter snakes just like any other! we here being garter snake people, whether they are hybrids or not, they are still garter snakes and they still deserve to live out their lives! especially feeding them until they are bigger, and THEN giving them to the kingsnakes... that is just not right. I think it is wrong that the babies should have to pay for a human mistake of housing two species together (not pointing any fingers at you, just saying that in general).
enigma200316
05-10-2008, 06:39 AM
well yes i see your piont, but the fact is there are garters breed and sold for the food all the time, this I'm sure of so its not like this doesn't happen, and also all animals have to eat so its a cycle no matter what.......unless you are a stricked veggitarian and don't eat any meat the same thing happens for you to eat..........unless of course your living off the land when there also you could be eatting a young animal, I guess what I'm trying to say is, its a cycle it happens, its the way of things......
just thought I'd put my general opinion in there...............:)
anji1971
05-10-2008, 07:27 AM
Okay, I'm probably going to sound like an idiot here, and I'm ready to hear about it, but can I ask why these hybrid snakes are so frowned upon in the first place??
I completely understand from a breeding perspective you wouldn't want to spoil the bloodline.
But, if you keep the hybrids as a separate group, is it such a bad thing??
In many other animal species, people mix breeds all the time, and those mixes are often well sought after. I'm mainly thinking of dogs and cats here, but still...........
There are probably a lot of people who would love to have an unusual looking garter that results from a mix of species. NOT to exploit and make money, just to appreciate it's unique beauty.
As a person who just loves snakes, in all their shapes, sizes and colours, I have to say I just don't completely understand this issue. :confused:
Thamnophis
05-10-2008, 08:05 AM
im sorry but I think thats really wrong... they are garter snakes just like any other! we here being garter snake people, whether they are hybrids or not, they are still garter snakes and they still deserve to live out their lives! especially feeding them until they are bigger, and THEN giving them to the kingsnakes... that is just not right. I think it is wrong that the babies should have to pay for a human mistake of housing two species together (not pointing any fingers at you, just saying that in general).

That was not what I meant.
They will not be treated as food for something else because they ae hybrids. Only when they are disabled or something like that.

I probably will keep them all myself in one way or another.
Thamnophis
05-10-2008, 08:15 AM
Okay, I'm probably going to sound like an idiot here, and I'm ready to hear about it, but can I ask why these hybrid snakes are so frowned upon in the first place??
I completely understand from a breeding perspective you wouldn't want to spoil the bloodline.
But, if you keep the hybrids as a separate group, is it such a bad thing??
In many other animal species, people mix breeds all the time, and those mixes are often well sought after. I'm mainly thinking of dogs and cats here, but still...........
There are probably a lot of people who would love to have an unusual looking garter that results from a mix of species. NOT to exploit and make money, just to appreciate it's unique beauty.
As a person who just loves snakes, in all their shapes, sizes and colours, I have to say I just don't completely understand this issue. :confused:

You do not sound like an idiot.

There is nothing wrong when these hybrid snakes are kept as pets.
There could be a problem when I sell them. Suppose I will sell them to you and tell you exactly what kind of snakes they are. What the parents are.

After a year you decide to sell them to someone else and you (by accident or on purpose) do not tell fromwhat parents these snakes are coming.
From that moment nobody knows that they are hybrids. Especially when they look a lot like one of the two parentspecies. If they look very different from the parentspecies the problem is less, but still nobody knows what they exactly are. And then there is a chance that they will be treated like T. s. tetrataenia and used to breed with them. This pollutes the bloodline.
Whether this is a bad thing or not is something where people have different opinions on.

That is why I (most probably) will keep all the young (if there will be young born!) myself. Then there is no problem at all.
drache
05-10-2008, 08:26 AM
Anji
some breeders think that playing with genetics is like playing with paints
they do things that are highly unlikely to ever happen in nature
- many of them with questionable results
I don't want to get into issues of good taste in aesthetics either - my mother warned me of that, and also proposed that it may not be a terrible thing that we are not all hot for exactly the same item
anyway
there is something in poor taste simply about playing with nature like that
of course to balance that
there is the purity crowd - ditto
inbreeding has not produced favourable results in the long run
those are extremes though and there's a whole range of in-between
aSnakeLovinBabe
05-10-2008, 10:28 AM
i think you misunderstood what I meant. I completely am ok with the fact that animals of all kinds are raised and bred for food. what I said was that I do not think it is fair that they should have to pay for the human error of keeping two different garters together. Singling them out because they are hybrids that only happened because of human error is wrong.
gregmonsta
05-10-2008, 12:58 PM
You do not sound like an idiot.

There is nothing wrong when these hybrid snakes are kept as pets.
There could be a problem when I sell them. Suppose I will sell them to you and tell you exactly what kind of snakes they are. What the parents are.

After a year you decide to sell them to someone else and you (by accident or on purpose) do not tell fromwhat parents these snakes are coming.
From that moment nobody knows that they are hybrids. Especially when they look a lot like one of the two parentspecies. If they look very different from the parentspecies the problem is less, but still nobody knows what they exactly are. And then there is a chance that they will be treated like T. s. tetrataenia and used to breed with them. This pollutes the bloodline.
Whether this is a bad thing or not is something where people have different opinions on.

That is why I (most probably) will keep all the young (if there will be young born!) myself. Then there is no problem at all.

Can't we all have one??? :D we is responsible peoples :rolleyes:
reptileparadise
05-10-2008, 01:04 PM
Lol

I think it will be very interesting to see what will be born from this cross (that is...IF young are born)
anji1971
05-10-2008, 02:14 PM
Okay, I understand where people are coming from now!
I was just a bit concerned because I got the impression that some people just thought the little snakeys would be "useless", so to speak, because they were of mixed parentage.
That wouldn't agree with me at all. But I see now that is not necessarily the case, so I feel better.:)
Thamnophis
05-11-2008, 06:36 AM
i think you misunderstood what I meant. I completely am ok with the fact that animals of all kinds are raised and bred for food. what I said was that I do not think it is fair that they should have to pay for the human error of keeping two different garters together. Singling them out because they are hybrids that only happened because of human error is wrong.

That's what I agree with. :cool:
Thamnophis
05-11-2008, 06:38 AM
Can't we all have one??? :D we is responsible peoples :rolleyes:

The people from Scotland have always been responsible people, isn't it?

But it's a long bikeride from Scotland to Holland. :D
gregmonsta
05-11-2008, 12:19 PM
The people from Scotland have always been responsible people, isn't it?

But it's a long bikeride from Scotland to Holland. :D

Definately been responsible for a lot of things .... if you have any success I'll avoid the bikeride and jump straight onto my magic bagpipes :D ... will be there in no time :rolleyes: ... of course there's always the ferry from Rosyth (but that's not as much fun :p)
Thamnophis
05-11-2008, 11:43 PM
I love bagpipes!
enigma200316
05-12-2008, 08:50 AM
I love bagpipes!


Me too...........
Snake lover 3-25
05-12-2008, 03:05 PM
lol this kind of reminded me of this thread......:DLOL
Cat Dog Theme Song (http://www.televisiontunes.com/Cat_Dog.html) :D:D:D
jeanette
05-12-2008, 03:09 PM
very pretty snakes, does this raise a debate on keeping different species together?
SpyrotheGartersnake
05-14-2008, 04:30 AM
man i hope there offspring look awesome!:D:D:D they said that we couldn't keep a San Fran Garter but they didn't say we couldn't have a Santa Cruz mixed with a San Fran did they:D:D:D
Thamnophis
05-16-2008, 01:43 PM
very pretty snakes, does this raise a debate on keeping different species together?

I think it does.
Thamnophis
05-16-2008, 01:44 PM
man i hope there offspring look awesome!:D:D:D they said that we couldn't keep a San Fran Garter but they didn't say we couldn't have a Santa Cruz mixed with a San Fran did they:D:D:D

That's a complete new discussion. A governement cannot forbid you to keep a species that doesn't excist. Or would they look at it in an other way?
adamanteus
05-16-2008, 01:47 PM
Unless you have unlimited space, it can be nearly impossible to have the collection you want and still keep all the species/sub-species separate.
I try to keep mine apart, but last years' babies are growing faster than I can build new vivs to accommodate them. I have a couple of mixed tanks at the moment. I hope to change this over the next couple on months.
KITKAT
05-16-2008, 04:10 PM
I think mixed tanks are OK, as long as you are good at sexing!:rolleyes:
aSnakeLovinBabe
05-16-2008, 04:40 PM
For a while, when I had about 7 females and 6 males, I kept a BIG female tank and a big male tank.. it worked out well for me.
Loren
05-17-2008, 04:15 PM
That's a complete new discussion. A governement cannot forbid you to keep a species that doesn't excist. Or would they look at it in an other way?
Actually, that can depend on the wording of the law. Many new laws coming out against private herp keeping of larger reptiles states species along with "or hybrid thereof". Are s.f. hybrids illegal is U.S ? I dont know, but they can certainly word the law to make them illegal, so it would take some research to find out. My guess is that if it resembles a s.f., they will gladly prosecute.
:)