Help with ID please...

[todaelaguadelmar]

Hi everyone, i finally got out form the welcome lounge... i could post my pics, they´re a little blurry, i took then with my mobile :( , and i need some help to identify EIVAR, so we van provide him a better environment.
please, look in my gallery for EIVAR.

[adamanteus]

Here he is...

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//596/medium/DSC00142.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//596/medium/DSC01025.JPG

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//596/medium/DSC01036.JPG

[adamanteus]

The photos are very blurred, Sarahi.... but I believe you have a Thamnophis marcianus.

Follow this link, Sarahi, see if you think he looks like one.

http://www.thamnophis.com/caresheets/index.php?title=Photographic_Library

[Zephyr]

The third pic makes me lean toward radix.

[ssssnakeluvr]

well....radix range doesn't extend into Mexico...

[Thamnophis]

T. marcianus, I am quite certain!

[Zephyr]

well....radix range doesn't extend into Mexico...It's a WC individual?

[ssssnakeluvr]

not 100% sure...she got it at a flea market in Mexico City...more than likely a native of Mexico. they are picky about exporting their native snakes, and probably picky about importing.

[adamanteus]

It's T. marcianus. For certain.

[anji1971]

He certainly is a nice snake!:)

[todaelaguadelmar]

We found it ressembled a lot to T. sirtralis sirtralis and a little to T. radix, i don´t think it looks like T. marcianus because it hasn´t a darker neck. (those i´ve seen them before), i ´ll try to get more pics. soon.
I know Mexico isn´t a native place for T. sirtralis sirtralis and T. radix, that´s why it´s so confusing, and yes, it´s not easy to move species between countries, there are lots of sanitary and conservation issues.

[todaelaguadelmar]

It's a WC individual?

What does it means a WC indiv:confused:idual?

[adamanteus]

WC = wild caught.

[enigma200316]

I to from the pick think it is a T. marcianus, but clearer picks would be great if possible...............;)

[adamanteus]

Sarahi, can you take a mid-body scale count?

[todaelaguadelmar]

thanks a lor adamanteus.

[todaelaguadelmar]

how can i do that? the mid-body scale count?

[adamanteus]

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//536/medium/Scale_count.jpg

[todaelaguadelmar]

Interesting.....but, where exactly? will it be the same all over the body? Should i measure it and do it exactly on tne middle?
thanks James.

[adamanteus]

No, about half way down his body, where he is the thickest.
It is enough to count from the dorsal mid-line scale to (and including) the final large scale before the ventral scutes. From this you can work out the count... the one in the drawing above would have a count of 19.... you only count the dorsal scale once, then 9 down either side.

[Endor]

I vote for T. sirtalis sirtalis

[todaelaguadelmar]

Scalecount= 15, does it says something to you?
have a nice day.

[adamanteus]

Scalecount= 15, does it says something to you?
have a nice day.


Could it be a mis-count? The smallest number I know of is 17 in T. brachystoma and T. ordinoides, your snake is neither of those.:)

[enigma200316]

remember when counting you have to count on an angle not stright down to.........................:)

[todaelaguadelmar]

We can recheck it tonight, but i think that we did it that way.
I´ll count again and the i tell u.
thanks again.

[ssssnakeluvr]

I'm leaning towards marcianus....there are 2 species down there, bovalli and praecualaris. but it looks a lot like some of the marcianus photos...the marcianus range extends down into Mexico a ways....

[todaelaguadelmar]

Hi, the new (more careful) scalecount =19, so, are we getting a surprise here????
Thanks a lot.

[adamanteus]

A scale count of 19 would suggest sirtalis! I'd like to see clearer pictures.:D

[enigma200316]

A scale count of 19 would suggest sirtalis! I'd like to see clearer pictures.:D

I agree, more clear pics please.................:)

[Stefan-A]

I disagree, marcianus does sometimes have 19 scale rows.

[adamanteus]

Sometimes, but very rarely, Stefan.... the usual count is 21.

[Stefan-A]

But sometimes it's 19.

[adamanteus]

Yes, Stefan. Sometimes. I still think it's a marcianus...... but I'd like to see better pictures now. And maybe yet another re-count!

[todaelaguadelmar]

i´ll be posting the pics soon, a friend will lend me his camera thies weekend, and i still think it isn´t T. marcianus, ´cause of the lack of dark scales around the neck....
thanks.

[todaelaguadelmar]

Finally, after lots of camera trouble, here are some more pics.
hope u can help me yet.
please look at them at my gallery, on Eivar´s album.
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showgallery.php?cat=596&ppuser=

[EdgyExoticReptiles]

thats confusing, doesn't completely look like a marcianus, clear shots would be helpful but it looks brownish where a marcianus is supposed to be black

Finally, after lots of camera trouble, here are some more pics.
hope u can help me yet.
please look at them at my gallery, on Eivar´s album.
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showgallery.php?cat=596&ppuser=

[todaelaguadelmar]

Yes, i know, i´ll try to get more pics, again, but the scalecount gave us 19, and i agree, it´s not black, and doesn´t lookes like marcianus. :(

[EdgyExoticReptiles]

maybe some weird mexican species? or a integrade?

Yes, i know, i´ll try to get more pics, again, but the scalecount gave us 19, and i agree, it´s not black, and doesn´t lookes like marcianus. :(

[todaelaguadelmar]

Hi.
I´ve got new pics today with a better camera, he won´t eat yet.
Please take a look to this new pics to help me to ID EIWAR our lovely new friend.

Again, scalecount =19.
thanks

[EdgyExoticReptiles]

those are much better, im afraid all i can say though is i dont think its a marcianus

[todaelaguadelmar]

;) that´s what i thought, but now i still want to know what it is. :(

[adamanteus]

Those are better pics, Sarahi.:)
Okay, I agree, it isn't T.marcianus. It looks very much like photos I have seen of T.scaliger, unfortunately I have never seen scaliger 'in the flesh' so I cannot be certain.

[anji1971]

That is one unusual garter! I'd like to know what it is too.........;)

[todaelaguadelmar]

Well, now we know what he isn´t and we´ll loke to know what he is, meanwhile i´ll be making some modifications in his tank, i´ll try to post pics of the remodelation soon, thanks a lot and i´ll be still waiting for information. ;)
I thought it was a T. sirtalis sirtalis :( thanks.

[adamanteus]

Maybe other members might want to give an opinion, after looking at your recent (much improved) photos.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//596/medium/S3020025.JPG

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//596/medium/S3020047.JPG

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//596/medium/S3020012.JPG

[Stefan-A]

Very interesting. I've never even seen a picture of scaliger, but the spots and the dorsal stripe do fit the description. Is the tongue red and black, or entirely black?

[drache]

what a beautiful snake

[Endor]

:cool:, Stefan, the tongue is completely black. I still think it´s a T. sirtalis sirtalis jeje

[todaelaguadelmar]

the tongue es all black as Endor says.

[Stefan-A]

If it's completely black, then it's not a T. sirtalis or a T. marcianus.

scaliger on the other hand does have a black tongue, as do all of the following species:

T. exsul
T. fulvus
T. godmani
T. mendax
T. nigronuchalis
T. rufipunctatus
T. scalaris
T. scaliger
T. sumichrasti

[adamanteus]

Yes, the black tongue, along with the other details, would confirm (for me) my earlier thought that this is T.scaliger.

[Stefan-A]

In addition, scaliger's dorsal stripe should be confined to a single scale row, according to literature. That seems to fit, too.

[adamanteus]

In addition, scaliger's dorsal stripe should be confined to a single scale row, according to literature. That seems to fit, too.

Indeed. It all fits now....... T.scaliger.

[jitami]

scaliger pics found online...

Thamnophis scaliger photos (http://www.vivanatura.org/Thamnophis%20scaliger%20ExtraPhotos.html)

[adamanteus]

Wow! Beautiful specimen.

[Stefan-A]

Nice work. :) I think it's pretty conclusive.

[adamanteus]

I SO want this species after seeing jitami's link!
I've never seen a picture of one so well marked.

[Stefan-A]

The Mexican species seem very nice. :) I suppose it's partially because of how rare they are.

[adamanteus]

Yes, I guess that is a big part of the attraction..... human nature.:rolleyes:

[todaelaguadelmar]

Can u tell me the difference between T. salaris and T. scaliger??? please?
And yes, black tongue and scalecount= 19. loves to swim but hasn´t touched it´s food, (1 couple of small xenopus, and 4 WC small fish)

[adamanteus]

http://static.photo.net/attachments/bboard/007/007Vbf-16776184.jpg

T.scalaris.

[Snake lover 3-25]

WOW that is the redest garter i HAVE EVER SEEN!!!!! even a pic!!!!:eek::eek:

[Stefan-A]

That seems to be an exceptionally red one. :)

[jeanette]

cute snake :) :) :)

[jitami]

Can u tell me the difference between T. salaris and T. scaliger??? please?
And yes, black tongue and scalecount= 19. loves to swim but hasn´t touched it´s food, (1 couple of small xenopus, and 4 WC small fish)

If you use the back button on that link(upper right hand corner) you can see a pic of scalaris and a few other native Mexican species. Cool site actually.

LOVE the red/orange pic. Wow!

[todaelaguadelmar]

Thanks to everyone:
Then, T. scaliger it is, now, we´ll keep trying to get him eating, so he won´t starve himself.
Any advice?

[adamanteus]

Have you tried 'scenting' prey with frog? Often Garters can't resist an amphibian meal.
Are you certain that all the environmental requirements are correct (temperature, hides etc)? Are you leaving him in peace to settle in?

[todaelaguadelmar]

He had enough time to settle, he´s not nervous anymore, he has 2 frogs (xenopus)living with him, and some WC fish, and T° is the same the room, since he´s not a tropical and now in Mexico is almost summer.
Should i first kill the fish for him? scent them with the xenopus? xenopus are albino, shoud i get green frogs, will they look better for him?

[adamanteus]

You could try putting the fish in very shallow water... too shallow, so that they flap about. This may arouse his interest.
I don't know about Xenopus... I have an idea that they are toxic? Not too sure on that. You could try a 'local' frog.

[Zephyr]

You could try putting the fish in very shallow water... too shallow, so that they flap about. This may arouse his interest.
I don't know about Xenopus... I have an idea that they are toxic? Not too sure on that. You could try a 'local' frog.
From combined opinion Xenopus are mildly toxic... The people from the Xenopus farm I talked to say they cause lockjaw and eventually death in snakes, so I would say don't take any chances.

[todaelaguadelmar]

I´ll keep the xenopus away, until i find a new home for them.
Better safe than sorry. I´ll look also for some local frogs, we bought the xenopus ´cause they were the only frogs at the petshop that day.
Thanks again.

[adamanteus]

No problem.:) Maybe he ignored the Xenopus because they smell 'alien' to him.... they are quite different from 'conventional' frogs.
Try the local frog, and also the flappy fish thing. One or the other should work for you.

[todaelaguadelmar]

thanks i´ll be trying it and i´ll tell u how it went.

[adamanteus]

Good luck, Sarahi. Keep us posted.... at least we know what you have now.....I'm looking forward to seeing you in threads other than this one!:D

[Endor]

Thank U everyone!!!!!!

[Stefan-A]

No problem.:) Maybe he ignored the Xenopus because they smell 'alien' to him.... they are quite different from 'conventional' frogs.
Try the local frog, and also the flappy fish thing. One or the other should work for you.
I just noticed that not much seems to be known about its preference in food, but apparently they will eat tadpoles in the wild. :rolleyes: