Stefan's garters

[Stefan-A]

How's the girl doing, Stefan?
Acting as if nothing ever happened. Her appetite is enormous, as usual, but I've been keeping her meals smaller than usual until I'm sure everything is passing through as it should. Which it seems to do.

The vet was convinced that there's no reason to resort to antibiotics (they're not going to dislodge any dead offspring or blockages anyway) and I'm going to trust his judgement for now.

[jitami]

Glad she's doing well. I was thinking the antibiotics would help her fight off the bacteria from babies rotting inside her... I know that sounds grim... sorry. I'm glad it doesn't seem necessary.

[Stefan-A]

Glad she's doing well. I was thinking the antibiotics would help her fight off the bacteria from babies rotting inside her... I know that sounds grim... sorry. I'm glad it doesn't seem necessary.
Don't worry about it sounding grim, I'm not that sensitive. :D It's a shame there's no way to tell when she's in the clear, though.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

ohh man... this thread sure had a rotten turnout! (no pun intended:o)

No, but seriously... I've had a snake or two birth babies that were decomposing. The ones that i had seen, a part of their belly halfway up was all black and mushy... while the rest of the snake had not yet decomposed...on all of the dead ones. I think that explains why yours are coming out in two pieces... if that spot gets mushy enough it will just break in half! I've noticed that same spot on a dead snake always tends to go first... really quickly, actually. What is that anyways? Their liver? why does that spot decompose so quickly?! Hopefully she recovers normally, without any complications!

[Stefan-A]

ohh man... this thread sure had a rotten turnout! (no pun intended:o)
Meh. My typical luck. If I was superstitious, I'd say it turned out this way because I was well prepared for a litter.


No, but seriously... I've had a snake or two birth babies that were decomposing. The ones that i had seen, a part of their belly halfway up was all black and mushy... while the rest of the snake had not yet decomposed...on all of the dead ones. I think that explains why yours are coming out in two pieces... if that spot gets mushy enough it will just break in half! I've noticed that same spot on a dead snake always tends to go first... really quickly, actually. What is that anyways? Their liver? why does that spot decompose so quickly?!Good question, worth finding out. That's where the "umbilical cord" is and that creates a weak spot, at least on the babies, but that's just a hypothesis.

[drache]

ohh man... this thread sure had a rotten turnout! (no pun intended:o)

No, but seriously... I've had a snake or two birth babies that were decomposing. The ones that i had seen, a part of their belly halfway up was all black and mushy... while the rest of the snake had not yet decomposed...on all of the dead ones. I think that explains why yours are coming out in two pieces... if that spot gets mushy enough it will just break in half! I've noticed that same spot on a dead snake always tends to go first... really quickly, actually. What is that anyways? Their liver? why does that spot decompose so quickly?! Hopefully she recovers normally, without any complications!
I'm pretty sure it must be the liver because the rest of their digestive system's got next to nothing going on at that point, and the liver is soft to begin with
since they're actually contained in eggs inside the mother's body, their umbilicus is attached to the yolk sac, and that's where they get their nutrients in highly concentrated form
if the yolk was used up too long before they were born, perhaps the chord would deteriorate, but it's really small and tougher than liver tissue, so I'd go with the liver
I wonder what does it though

[ConcinusMan]

Good question, worth finding out. That's where the "umbilical cord" is and that creates a weak spot, at least on the babies, but that's just a hypothesis.

Yup. That's been my experience. That's where it typically happens.

[Stefan-A]

Just weighed half of my snakes for an upcoming deworming (just in case).

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/dec09/dec-mvagrans01.jpg

This male weighs 90 grams, which is nearly twice as much (44-49 grams) as the parietalis male I used to have, which was about as long. I should measure this one at some point.

[gregmonsta]

Sounds right :rolleyes: my males are all around the 75-90g mark apart from Slithers .... he's about the same length but almost half the girth of the others.

[ConcinusMan]

Absolutely fantastic photo. That's desktop wallpaper quality there. Nice. ^^^

[Stefan-A]

Absolutely fantastic photo. That's desktop wallpaper quality there. Nice. ^^^
I did use it as wallpaper for a couple of months. :)

[ConcinusMan]

Now I have a couple of months... hint hint. Looks great on the desktop.

[drache]

yeah - it's a beautiful photo of a beautiful snake

[infernalis]

I have always admired your photography Stefan. ;)

Catching up on this thread is going to take days.

[jitami]

How's she doing, Stefan? I assume all is well?

[Stefan-A]

How's she doing, Stefan? I assume all is well?
Yeah, nothing new on that front. The kid won't eat, but that's about it.

Plus, her sister threw a pile of slugs yesterday. Hadn't mated, so that wasn't a big deal.

[jitami]

Tell the kid to knock it off and eat already!

[ConcinusMan]

Some of my concinnus offspring didn't eat for a month after birth and they were OK. Your kid will come around soon enough.

[Stefan-A]

At least he shows interest in the food, even if he doesn't eat. Well, we'll see how that goes. I have a few tricks I haven't bothered testing.

[gregmonsta]

He? ..... :rolleyes: are we missing something here?

[ConcinusMan]

At least he shows interest in the food, even if he doesn't eat. Well, we'll see how that goes. I have a few tricks I haven't bothered testing.

The anery concinnus and ordinoides I have that just came out of brumation are doing the same thing. They show interest but do not go for it.

Any tricks for getting them to eat? My past concinnus always ate right of brumation. Then shed, then bred.

[Stefan-A]

If they just came out of brumation, I'd just give them time. It has taken my snakes about two weeks to get going again after brumation and it can definitely take longer than that.

[Stefan-A]

He? ..... :rolleyes: are we missing something here?
Yeah, this:


(it's a "he" for now)

That was me talking about the one baby that lived.

[ConcinusMan]

The concinnus aren't in too bad a shape, especially the female but one of the more attractive ordinoides is extremely thin. Hope he comes around soon.

[gregmonsta]

Yeah, this:



That was me talking about the one baby that lived.

Ah ... Greg had a 'brain on holiday' moment :o

[ConcinusMan]

I knew what stefan meant and I was pretty drunk at the time. Yeah, that's right, I was drunk at 9 something in the morning. No work this week and it's nothing a good meal and a nap can't fix.

[Stefan-A]

Was greeted by another 6½ stinking carcasses when I came home today, bringing the total up to 10, including the live one.

[jitami]

That really sucks, Stefan. So sorry.

[Snakers]

Was greeted by another 6½ stinking carcasses when I came home today, bringing the total up to 10, including the live one.6and a half there was half a snake?:confused:

[ConcinusMan]

It's good they're coming out. I kind of worried about the length of time it's taking and not knowing if there's any more. Something like this could kill her. I lost a WC gravid female this way. Same thing, right down to many of the details and timing.

[Stefan-A]

6and a half there was half a snake?:confused:
Yeah, I got the rear half on the 15th. This half had a head.

[Snakers]

Yeah, I got the rear half on the 15th. This half had a head.Aw man hope shes feeling a little better do you think there all out?

[Stefan-A]

Aw man hope shes feeling a little better do you think there all out?
Probably. I wasn't expecting more than this anyway.

I also need to correct myself, the head count is currently 11 with no halves unaccounted for.

The mom's about to shed, too. Will be interesting to see what's left of her after that.

[gregmonsta]

Fingers crossed she's all clear now.

[Stefan-A]

Stuffed her full of food a few days ago. That must have dislodged them.

[ConcinusMan]

That's a reasonable hypothesis. That's why I was saying you should put her in a warm bath and force her to swim. It helps to dislodge dead neonates as well as intestinal blockages. I got curious and was looking for female snake anatomy but most of it is male or doesn't show were the babies develop. I did find an interesting article, probably a subject for another thread.

Garter snakes rape their females? :eek: http://www.jstor.org/pss/3473095

[drache]

I'm sorry for your poor girl, Stefan, and I hope the shed means she's all done

[Stefan-A]

She shed today. Also decided to dump another 3.

[guidofatherof5]

She shed today. Also decided to dump another 3.


Sounds like my Speckle. That sort of thing never happened before and I was very concerned for my girl. A month after birth she was still dropping stillborns. She would have had 43 babies had they all lived.
The good news is she is no worse for the experience and has bred again. I hope everything turns out well for your snake.

[Stefan-A]

On a positive note, she hasn't been this slim in a long time. Which might be the reason this happened in the first place.

[guidofatherof5]

Was she thin when she bred or has she just gotten thin because of this incident. I'd be more concerned with her losing weight after something like this. Granted, I don't know the whole situation like you do since she's your but I get concerned when my snakes lose weight. Why do you think this is a plus for her?

[Stefan-A]

Was she thin when she bred or has she just gotten thin because of this incident. I'd be more concerned with her losing weight after something like this. Granted, I don't know the whole situation like you do since she's your but I get concerned when my snakes lose weight. Why do you think this is a plus for her?
She was overfed.

[ConcinusMan]

Could have been the heat pads too. I never use them for garters. Overhead basking bulbs or ceramic heat is what I used.

[Stefan-A]

Could have been the heat pads too. I never use them for garters. Overhead basking bulbs or ceramic heat is what I used.
It's the same solution I used last time, without any losses. I think something just went wrong during labor. Like the process started, which cuts the gas exchange between the babies and the mother and only the first one made it out of there before choking to death.

[ConcinusMan]

Sounds reasonable. At one point I was thinking the same thing. Like they suffocated. Like the mother somehow held them back too long.

[Stefan-A]

The survivor is eating like a pig, by the way. Haven't popped the little guy, probably won't.

[guidofatherof5]

The survivor is eating like a pig, by the way. Haven't popped the little guy, probably won't.


Nice to hear the lone surviver is doing well.

[ConcinusMan]

good news.

[jitami]

The survivor is eating like a pig, by the way.

Good to hear :)

[drache]

glad to hear the survivor is doing well
hopefully the mom is all done now and there'll be no later complications

[gregmonsta]

The 'Can I house mixed male and female groups together if I don't brumate?' question?

[Stefan-A]

The 'Can I house mixed male and female groups together if I don't brumate?' question?
Depends on how I interpret that answer. ;)

[gregmonsta]

Lol .... :rolleyes: the joys of deciphering English :p

[gregmonsta]

Did you/or will you get a little present from your viperines? :D

[Stefan-A]

Did you/or will you get a little present from your viperines? :D
Possibly. They're just so damn small snakes and I didn't expect it to happen this soon. Well, I guess it's just one more thing that has the potential to go straight to hell.

I wonder if there's a morning-after pill for snakes...

[gregmonsta]

Fingers crossed it'll go smoothly ;) ... I thought the same about a small WC red-sided female one of my friends down South had bought .... she was only marginally bigger than my male ... I thought I felt bumps at my visit and about a week later I got a panicked e-mail about 6 tiny squiggles and what to do with them.

[Stefan-A]

So now I'll have to learn to incubate eggs. What do I have, 30 days?

[gregmonsta]

I'm not sure on timing but I'm sure it's plenty to put an incubator together ;) and ... if it is a non-event .... you'll have an incubator ready for the future anyway.

Styrofoam box + heat pad + thermostat + plastic box + vermiculite would make a good checklist :D

[Stefan-A]

I'm not sure on timing but I'm sure it's plenty to put an incubator together ;) and ... if it is a non-event .... you'll have an incubator ready for the future anyway.

Styrofoam box + heat pad + thermostat + plastic box + vermiculite would make a good checklist :D
Yeah, I have most of the equipment already, I've just got to find a thermostat that won't break after 2 days.

[gregmonsta]

How easy is it to get equipment in Finland? Do you rely on mail-order? Microclimate thermostats get my vote.

[Stefan-A]

How easy is it to get equipment in Finland? Do you rely on mail-order? Microclimate thermostats get my vote.
Difficult. If the local pet store doesn't have any, I'm going to have order it and apparently there's only one online store that sells thermostats and they're the ones that sold me the one that broke. I get to choose between Lucky Reptile and Zoo Med.

[gregmonsta]

Damn ... you might be better ordering from abroad if possible. I don't know anyone that uses either of those brands here. Habistat and microclimate are the most used here in Britain. Microclimate is my favourite because it will just switch off if it fails.

[Stefan-A]

Damn ... you might be better ordering from abroad if possible. I don't know anyone that uses either of those brands here. Habistat and microclimate are the most used here in Britain. Microclimate is my favourite because it will just switch off if it fails.
Unfortunately, PayPal doesn't support the Visa Electron that my bank issues, otherwise I would. :rolleyes: Maybe I can rig something to use my old, perfectly functioning aquarium thermostat.

Of course I could make a thermostat, too, but that wouldn't be safe or practical.

[ConcinusMan]

I currently use and have used zoo med thermostats. I've always used them way under the capacity they are rated for. They lasted years for me. Combine that with appropriate wattage heat emitters(where practical) and florescent lighting and you have one great energy efficient setup for reptiles.

But we're talking eggs here. I've had success in several ways. One way was to place the eggs on a mesh above a volume of water heated by an inexpensive aquarium heater with it's own thermostat. It's a little tricky but once you get it constant and all is good, it works. Humidity and temperature needs vary depending on species of course. I hatched Sceloporus lizards (several species), Uta stansburiana elegans and Coluber constrictor mormon eggs in nothing but a plastic container with lid and a few holes on top, damp (not wet) vermiculite and kept the container between 80-90 degrees F. (I placed it on top of an electric water heater!) But then again, I incubated american robin eggs for 10 days successfully using nothing but a cardboard box, a spray mister, water dish, and a light bulb. Two of the five went on to become mature adults (a hen and a **** DO'H!... male) their names were Robin and Robert. I my story appeared in the local newspaper. I was 7 years old. They went on to live their lives in an aviary. Beyond that year (1977) it was nothing but garter snakes for me!

All these options require very careful and close monitoring though.

I was poor and there was no internet to order cool stuff. Seems like a substrate-less reptile incubator is the way to go now. For less valuable eggs you can take your chances with a cheap styrofoam incubator. It can, and often does work.

[ConcinusMan]

I had my doubts. If anyone would have been taking bets I would bet that he wouldn't do well. So glad that I'm wrong so far. Get the little guy to grow and get past that 6 month mark, and you have yourself what I would NOT call an EPIC FAIL. A flop maybe, but not an epic fail.

[Stefan-A]

My former Zoo Med thermostat was rated for something like 500W. I was using it for two 40W lightbulbs. Anyway, I stopped using bulbs last summer. I rebuilt my enclosures to use heat pads instead, which took care of the overheating problems I was having during the hottest months.

Anyway, when I said I could probably rig something using my aquarium thermostat (I meant "heater"), a "bain marie" incubator was exactly what I had in mind. I've had it up and running since yesterday afternoon and it's holding steady at 30 degrees. I will be using substrate, though.

[ConcinusMan]

Sounds good. I didn't want to get into details but a "bain marie" incubator is not a bad idea at all for temperate zone reptiles. The temperature for the species I incubated actually did fluctuate daily from a minimum low of about 74 F to a maximum high of about 90 F. I got both males and females and very few, if any, failed to hatch.

I've also tried constant around 90 F. Ended up with all males and higher failure rate. Tried constant 75 F. Took a long time to hatch and got mostly females. The daily fluctuation method worked out better. If you use the bain marie method and the room fluctuates from day to night, and that is reflected on the eggs' thermal exposure, it's not a bad thing.

I imagine that in one's effort to provide easy living, it can cause failure to produce viable offspring if the mother is kept too warm. Sometimes that means cooling her down quite a bit nightly against her will. ;) And NO heatpads.

I know that sometimes, it pains me to turn off the heat when the snakes seem to be enjoying it but I do it for their own good. A nice cool down (60-65 F if possible) for at least 8 hours a night really does benefit most garters.

[Stefan-A]

Everything here is on a timer and I provide a heat gradient during the day. That establishes both a daily rhythm and allows the snake to seek out an optimal temperature.

[ConcinusMan]

Significant drop at night? Say 10 degrees lower than the daytime cool spot? Just checking. I know that is not possible to achieve sometimes but if you can do it it's not a bad thing. Snake may seek out the warmest spot sometimes even if it's not in their best interest. This is just my personal experience with a few species so take the info and do as you wish. Just sharing. Mine just seem to be more alive and more vigor if I stick to that. Some know whats good for them, and for others, what's good for them must be imposed upon them. I still have reservations about using bottom heat for gravid females. I'm not suggesting anything related to the failure but it's just not what I would do.

But I drifted back to the garters. We briefly were talking about some viper eggs? Some people insist that vermiculite or any substrate is bad. I don't have a problem with it for lizards that dig chambers in moist earth or snakes that lay eggs in moist rotting leaf litter. Just have to monitor the moisture carefully. Temperature for the eggs I have incubated can fluctuate quite a bit and still result in high success rate. When using vermiculite use your nose daily. Check for that dirty earth (mold) smell. Catch it early and dry them out a bit and they'll be fine.

[Stefan-A]

The coolest part of the enclosure during the day and the whole enclosure during the night is room temperature, which is at least 10-15 C lower than the basking area during the day.

[ConcinusMan]

Doesn't sound like anything is wrong then.

[Stefan-A]

But I drifted back to the garters. We briefly were talking about some viper eggs?
Viperine snake eggs. Natrix maura. Think: "Tiny mild-tempered egg-laying version of a North American watersnake".

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakesies08/nov12-2008-4.jpg

[gregmonsta]

Cute little boogers. I loved your viper impression video ;)

[Stefan-A]

Cute little boogers. I loved your viper impression video ;)
Yeah, I have a couple of those. :D

[Stefan-A]

New video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8SpqAQvvP0

[gregmonsta]

Nice footage. Shame she slugged out.

[Stefan-A]

Nice footage. Shame she slugged out.
Meh. She hadn't mated. This was her year off from breeding.

[ConcinusMan]

No need to post new videos here. Anybody who's anybody will subscribe. No, I'm only kidding but not. I subscribed but I just don't have the time to watch and rate all (what is it now, 90 something videos?) of the past videos.

If I had that kind of time on my hands, (and a better camera) I'd be making more videos and uploading them to my youtube account! (DVFdrinkordie)

[Stefan-A]

k_fBgNCIeUs

Of course this needs to be tested. ;)

[guidofatherof5]

Looks and works great.
Thanks for posting Stefan. Did they ever lock up?

[Stefan-A]

Looks and works great.
Thanks for posting Stefan. Did they ever lock up?
Yes, but I had the camera pointed at them for several minutes before I noticed that I hadn't pressed the record button hard enough. :rolleyes:

[ConcinusMan]

I never tried imbedding. I always assumed that was for your own websites or personal web pages. Can we do that here or did you need some sort of privileges?

[Stefan-A]

I never tried imbedding. I always assumed that was for your own websites or personal web pages. Can we do that here or did you need some sort of privileges?
Boots just started a thread about it, but I think everybody can.

[ConcinusMan]

Cool. I'll try it as soon as I upload something new.

[Stefan-A]

I changed my mind. Here he is. Shot a couple of minutes worth of video, as well.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes10/solo-2010mar8.jpg
Today:

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes10/theone-april29-2010.jpg

[gregmonsta]

He's coming along beautifully :D

[ConcinusMan]

He looks rather full. Wouldn't be spoiling him now would you?

[ConcinusMan]

Anyway, I stopped using bulbs last summer. I rebuilt my enclosures to use heat pads instead, which took care of the overheating problems I was having during the hottest months.

Or, the air is too cold at times, the snakes sense no warmth from above, then sit on that pad and cook.

It's funny though, I've had the opposite problem. It does a sun-basking snake no good to sit on a 120 degree surface, (that's about what I was getting, even mounted on the side glass) especially if they're gravid.

I still say, if you're gals are gravid again, get rid of the heat pads. Of course, if it were me, I wouldn't use them at all. If you have the correct wattage for the setup, and sufficient room for an adequate gradient, you won't be overheating. If you're really overheating in the summer, in spite of that, leave them off during those warm months. I mean, it would have to get to nearly 80 F in my room in order to make the heat bulbs too much in my setups. Under the bulbs are only 10-15 degrees warmer than the room. Perfect if the room is between 65-72 degrees. And it is, during the summer. Winter can get down to 60 at night, so I bump it up from 40 watt heat emitter to 60 watt IF more heat is needed.

That's another reason I go with glass and screened top. Choice is yours to make, but I think it's wrong to only use bottom heat. If the setup is right, your heat emitter wattage is right, all the issues you speak of, magically dissappear and there will be no need for heat pads.

[Stefan-A]

I'll take that under advisement. :rolleyes:

[MasSalvaje]

Or, the air is too cold at times, the snakes sense no warmth from above, then sit on that pad and cook.

It's funny though, I've had the opposite problem. It does a sun-basking snake no good to sit on a 120 degree surface, (that's about what I was getting, even mounted on the side glass) especially if they're gravid.

I still say, if you're gals are gravid again, get rid of the heat pads. Of course, if it were me, I wouldn't use them at all. If you have the correct wattage for the setup, and sufficient room for an adequate gradient, you won't be overheating. If you're really overheating in the summer, in spite of that, leave them off during those warm months. I mean, it would have to get to nearly 80 F in my room in order to make the heat bulbs too much in my setups. Under the bulbs are only 10-15 degrees warmer than the room. Perfect if the room is between 65-72 degrees. And it is, during the summer. Winter can get down to 60 at night, so I bump it up from 40 watt heat emitter to 60 watt IF more heat is needed.

That's another reason I go with glass and screened top. Choice is yours to make, but I think it's wrong to only use bottom heat. If the setup is right, your heat emitter wattage is right, all the issues you speak of, magically dissappear and there will be no need for heat pads.

I found that heat from above is not always ideal. I agree that it is very beneficial to have a light source but I have found for additional heat it is far easier to control the temp and maintain the proper gradient using the belly heat.

This is a case by case problem I believe. Something that works well for you in your area and with your setup may not work equally well for others, and I am sure it goes the other way also.

-Thomas

[infernalis]

Boots just started a thread about it, but I think everybody can.


Yes anyone can, Jason implemented the same plugin on both of his snake forums.

[Stefan-A]

Measured my wandering garters today.

Total lengths:
The big female - 81 cm / ~32"
The small female - 75 cm / ~29½"
Adult male - 73 cm / ~29"
Subadult male - 59 cm / ~23"

[infernalis]

Measured my wandering garters today.

Total lengths:
The big female - 81 cm / ~32"
The small female - 75 cm / ~29½"
Adult male - 73 cm / ~29"
Subadult male - 59 cm / ~23"


After reading that I had to go back a few posts and look, Those are some great looking vagrans you have there.

[Stefan-A]

After reading that I had to go back a few posts and look, Those are some great looking vagrans you have there.
Thank you.

I haven't really posted pictures on a regular basis since 2008, I put almost everything on YouTube.

[ConcinusMan]

Ugly fugly. :p

[Stefan-A]

Ugly fugly. :p
Banned.

[gregmonsta]

Some good stats there. Nice sized male. I keep planning to measure Xerxes ... I should really do my whole collection sometime soon. :)

[Stefan-A]

Some good stats there. Nice sized male.
Yeah, Gijs and Sabine did a good job getting him started. ;)

[Stefan-A]

k_fBgNCIeUs

Of course this needs to be tested. ;)
C-F9gxH4hnA

[Snaky]

Great news with the eggs :)

Will you try to incubate them?

[Stefan-A]

Great news with the eggs :)

Will you try to incubate them?
Yeah, the incubator is up and running. It'll be interesting to see how long it'll take before that thing fails.

[infernalis]

Yeah, the incubator is up and running. It'll be interesting to see how long it'll take before that thing fails.


Don't sell yourself short Stefan, I have confidence that you will do your best and hopefully fate will deal you a winning hand this time around.

[Stefan-A]

Don't sell yourself short Stefan, I have confidence that you will do your best and hopefully fate will deal you a winning hand this time around.
We'll see.

[infernalis]

Fingers crossed.

[drache]

congrats now on the eggs, and more when they hatch

[gregmonsta]

Eggzellent indeed :D .... Congrats :)

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

wow! very cool! Congrats :D

[BUSHSNAKE]

awesome, how long do have to incubate the eggs, whats the temp and humidity?

[Stefan-A]

Thanks. :)

[Stefan-A]

awesome, how long do have to incubate the eggs, whats the temp and humidity?
6-13 weeks, high humidity and I'm keeping the temperature at about 28-29 C. I have no idea if that's correct for the species, there's not a whole lot of information out there, but IIRC, they eggs are supposed to survive between 21 and 32. I know there's a book on amazon.de about the species, but I can't get my hands on it. I'm basically just applying what's known about where they lay their eggs in the wild and the climate where they are found.

So that's why I'm unsure about the survival of the eggs. I'm applying what's being used with other species, as it seems that the same rules apply to most colubrids (that people commonly keep).

[ConcinusMan]

Why are so unsure of the survival of the eggs? It's really not that difficult.

[Stefan-A]

Why are so unsure of the survival of the eggs? It's really not that difficult.
Lack of knowledge about hatching eggs of this specific species. Plus, I have bad luck.

[ConcinusMan]

Unless they are from the driest of deserts, or equatorial species, the same basic rules apply.

Like not touching them with your bare hands :rolleyes:.
Avoid turning them
26-31 degrees should be fine

The tricky part is keeping them from getting dehydrated while also avoiding mold.

Separate the eggs if possible. Any bad eggs will ruin good eggs if they are touching. Don't use soil, leaves, dirt, or any other material that is prone to mold. Sterile vermiculite seems to work well if it's kept moist but not wet, and the eggs are at least partially recessed in it. Mist with distilled water as needed to keep them moist. I don't like the looks of what you have them in. Looks too wet and it will probably mold.

I don't think any temperate snake eggs will fail if you do that.

[BUSHSNAKE]

hope everything goes well, its an interesting species

[Stefan-A]

Like not touching them with your bare hands :rolleyes:.
Oops. :rolleyes:



I don't like the looks of what you have them in. Looks too wet and it will probably mold.That was the humid hide, I put them in vermiculite (without turning the eggs) right away.

Don't bother dumbing it down for me, I've read the basic instructions a hundred times.

[ConcinusMan]

Then you shouldn't be so negative. It's a cinch. I've read the basics a few times, successfully incubated snake and lizard eggs dozens of times. You can do it.

First starting out, I made a few mistakes such as letting them get to dry, too cold or hot. Once I had a batch about halfway done when something happened and the eggs got down to 18 degrees for about a full day. Another time they got up to 36. Most of them still hatched anyway so don't worry too much about precise temperature.

On a side note, the two smaller ones that you touched in the video look suspect to me. Like maybe they're no good. The two very long white ones look good though.

So what do you have set up for an incubator?

[Stefan-A]

On a side note, the two smaller ones that you touched in the video look suspect to me. Like maybe they're no good. The two very long white ones look good though.
They were unfertilized beyond any doubt.


So what do you have set up for an incubator?
Bain-marie incubator. It's actually been tested and ready for this for weeks. We discussed this already, IIRC.

[ConcinusMan]

I remember, I just wasn't sure if that's the one you planned to use. Even with the high humidity, just make sure the vermiculite doesn't dry out completely for very long.

[Stefan-A]

And like clockwork, 4/6 garters have gone off feed. :rolleyes:

[infernalis]

Isn't this the time of year that they are supposed to do the opposite?

[Stefan-A]

Isn't this the time of year that they are supposed to do the opposite?
Yes, it is.

Every year, it's the same thing. As they come out of brumation, they eat like there's no tomorrow, until the first heat wave, when everybody stops eating at the same time (except the newborns and one female wandering garter that never skips a meal). The next couple of months will be spent trying to get them to eat again. The males and the tetrataenia will come around in about a month, but the smaller female vagrans (yes, this is the main reason she's smaller than her sister) will start to only sporadically take mice until the start of brumation.

Either they're expecting to aestivate, or to switch to a food type that isn't mice, fish, earthworms or slugs. Too bad you can't get frozen frogs from the pet store.

[infernalis]

Too bad you can't get frozen frogs from the pet store.

I recall you showing us some great fishing locations near you, can you get some and freeze the frogs yourself??

Just a thought.

[Stefan-A]

I recall you showing us some great fishing locations near you, can you get some and freeze the frogs yourself??

Just a thought.
Nope. All amphibians are protected here and that includes eggs and tadpoles. I'd be breaking the law by just picking up one (without an acceptable reason).

[Stefan-A]

C-F9gxH4hnA
Noticed yesterday that one of the eggs was dented.

[guidofatherof5]

Nice video. Very informative.
I had a number of questions I was going to ask but your information sheet at the end took care of them.
Nice choice of music, also.

[infernalis]

cool stuff.

[Stefan-A]

The male vagrans I kept from last year's litter.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes10/subadult2010-06-22a.jpg


A few close-ups of the marking. Neither parent has any markings like the ones below the lateral stripe.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes10/subadult2010-06-22b.jpg

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes10/subadult2010-06-22c.jpg



And finally, little (half)brother:

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes10/newbie2010-06-22.jpg

[Hollis_Steed]

Stefan, they are some beauties, but then I'm partial to vagrans!:D

[infernalis]

Great looking snakes Stefan, decent photography too.

[guidofatherof5]

Very nice looking snakes.

[ConcinusMan]

How's things going with the eggs?

[Stefan-A]

How's things going with the eggs?
Nothing new on that front. No mould, no dents, no funny smells.

[ConcinusMan]

Dents aren't always bad but that sounds like everything is good!

[Stefan-A]

So anyway, the eggs hatched on the 1st.

[drache]

cool - congrats
so there's babies, right?
and the photos are on their way?

[guidofatherof5]

So anyway, the eggs hatched on the 1st.

So anyway, where's the photos?:D
Are you just teasing us? We want to see:)

[Stefan-A]

I've shot a couple of minutes of video. Will see if I can get it edited and uploaded later today. Or tomorrow. Might also take some photos later today. Or tomorrow.

[guidofatherof5]

I've shot a couple of minutes of video. Will see if I can get it edited and uploaded later today. Or tomorrow. Might also take some photos later today. Or tomorrow.

Thanks, looking forward to seeing them.
I'll just have to be a good patient and use patience.:D I think I've got it!

[infernalis]

Can't wait to see.....

[Stefan-A]

Postnatal shed coming up.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes10/natrixmaura/nmaura-babies01.jpg

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes10/natrixmaura/nmaura-babies02.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

Beautiful snakes.

[ConcinusMan]

Congrats! They look healthy. I knew you could do it.

[Stefan-A]

One of them seems a bit lethargic at the moment.

[Spankenstyne]

Great job, congrats.
Hopefully the lethargic one picks up as well.

[Stefan-A]

Didn't put much effort into it, but here's the video.

QmpiMOoE7gM

A bit shaky and badly lit due to me being in a hurry when I shot it.

[infernalis]

Nice.. They look like very interesting snakes.

The markings on them are really cool.

[indigoman]

Congratulation, great news!

[drache]

oh they're wonderful
congrats Stefan

[ConcinusMan]

A little lethagic? OK, better wake them up a bit. Give them CPR! I mean, they're barely alive.:rolleyes:

Oh, I know. they just don't like you so they are forcing themselves to look dead and boring for the camera.;)

That one little guy went all "gangsta" on you.:p Are you sure you're not hurt?

He's like the teens in "red dawn" kicking butt, only instead of yelling "wolverines!" the snake is yelling "VIPERine!"

[Snaky]

Congrats Stefan, hopefully you'll get them to eat easily :).

A very interesting species. I'll certainly keep them one day.

[Stefan-A]

Thanks. :)

[adamanteus]

Hatchlings with attitude! Very nice, Stefan.:)

[mustang]

there all screaming "ahhhh the human is aproaching without food ,he must have come to conquor our land and enslave us oh nooooooo!"

[Stefan-A]

Well, either they've eaten, or they've just been rolling around in the food, because there are pieces of fish all over the faunarium. Apparently they've decorated their fake plant with fish slices, too.

[mustang]

i think they found their house theam lol

[jitami]

Fat, sassy, and very cute :) Congrats Stefan! I take it the 'bit lethargic' one has come around?

[Stefan-A]

Fat, sassy, and very cute :) Congrats Stefan! I take it the 'bit lethargic' one has come around?
I think so, but it still doesn't have an attitude.

[drache]

I think so, but it still doesn't have an attitude.maybe it's just a more relaxed attitude

[Mommy2many]

Stefan, Congratulations! You have quite the feisty one there in the video. Good luck with the newborns.

[guidofatherof5]

Attitude isn't everything.:D

[Stefan-A]

If you have an aversion to profanity, turn the audio off. I was watching a blogTV show while I was feeding the snakes.

XtsrMi-z7Vg

[Snakers]

cool video, they glom them right down don't they?

[drui9201]

That's what I call a feeding response.

[Stefan-A]

That's a fairly typical vagrans feeding response. The males are usually a bit more brutal than that and the females a bit less.

By contrast, the tetrataenia I have will usually just gently nip the mouse and let go 3-5 times before it finally holds on. Even then, it's a really weak hold and it will wait up to a minute before it starts swallowing it.

[kibakiba]

That yearling eats just like Mama does... She's just slow and dainty when she eats :P She also doesn't strike much, just just packs them down quite a bit.

[ConcinusMan]

Amy viciously attacks her food every time. Even a little more aggressively than your vagrans.

[Stefan-A]

One:

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes10/natrixmaura/littlemaura.jpg


The other:

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes10/natrixmaura/biggermaura.jpg


There is a size difference, although it might be difficult to tell. The first one is smaller.

[BUSHSNAKE]

those are cool, ive been paying more attention to Natrix sp.

[infernalis]

I have really wanted one since the first time I saw photos of Stefan's snakes.

He describes them as having "great" attitude as well.

[gartermorphs]

the second one has a question mark on his neck!

[kibakiba]

It does! What an interesting marking. Mine has a really long "l" on its back :p

[Stefan-A]

I hadn't even noticed.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes10/natrixmaura/theriddler.jpg

[Snakers]

very cool snake!

[Hollis_Steed]

I hadn't even noticed.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes10/natrixmaura/theriddler.jpg
Love the markings! It looks like either a question mark or maybe figure eight. Cool.

[kibakiba]

Looks like a snake! (the marking) kind of :)

[Stefan-A]

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes10/nastierthanitlooks-x.jpg

Can't remember if I've ever posted this, but this is a picture taken on June 11 2006.



http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes10/nastierthanitlooks-xi.jpg

The same snake on June 28 2006.

[guidofatherof5]

That is one unhappy snake in the first photo.:D

[Stefan-A]

That is one unhappy snake in the first photo.:D
That one never ever showed any signs of aggression. At all. Ever. The calmest snake I've ever come across.

What it did have, was a wound from rubbing its nose against something sharp in the enclosure. That other thread with the nose rub reminded me of this experience.

[ConcinusMan]

Healed up nicely. The second pic looks so much healthier than the first.

[Stefan-A]

Measured my wandering garters today.

Total lengths:
The big female - 81 cm / ~32"
The small female - 75 cm / ~29½"
Adult male - 73 cm / ~29"
Subadult male - 59 cm / ~23"
About 4 months later:

T. e. vagrans big female - 211g / 83cm
T. e. vagrans small female - 183g / 78cm
T. e. vagrans male - 78g / 73cm (lost 12 g since March)

T. sirtalis tetrataenia - 144g / 86cm

Natrix maura male - 31g / 45cm
Natrix maura female - 51g / 52cm

[guidofatherof5]

Looks like for the most part they are putting on some size.
Do you know what's going on with the shrinking male vagran? Has he been off food for awhile?

[ConcinusMan]

Not to change the subject but I'm still stuck on, and amazed by that mark. The "mark of the snake" on a snake. Don't see it? try this:

Well that's why I don't bother with attaching to posts in forums. Doesn't work half the time.

Oh well. Back to good old reliable imageshack hotlinking:

http://a.imageshack.us/img31/8662/markofthesnake.png

If it was mirror image, it would look a lot like a dollar sign $ :D

[kibakiba]

I was thinking that too, Richard! I never thought much of it but it's so cool :D

[Stefan-A]

Looks like for the most part they are putting on some size.
Do you know what's going on with the shrinking male vagran? Has he been off food for awhile?
He was off-feed for a very short while, but that's not the reason. The only change in the diet, has been towards more mice and less fish. I suspect that something was different when I weighed him last time. He might have been close to shedding and I definitely remember him defecating relatively soon after being weighed. With one of my females, the difference a few days before shedding and a day after, was around 20 grams, if I remember correctly.

This time, it was relatively soon after he had shed (not even halfway through a cycle) and it was an entire week since any of the snakes had eaten.

[mustang]

name the snake tattooed snake voldamort!(minus the spelling error)

[Stefan-A]

name the snake tattooed snake voldamort!(minus the spelling error)
That's something you need to take up with the new owner. :rolleyes:

[Stefan-A]

About 4 months later:

T. e. vagrans big female - 211g / 83cm
T. e. vagrans small female - 183g / 78cm
T. e. vagrans male - 78g / 73cm (lost 12 g since March)

T. sirtalis tetrataenia - 144g / 86cm

Natrix maura male - 31g / 45cm
Natrix maura female - 51g / 52cm
Two more snakes:

T. e. vagrans yearling male - 56g / 64cm
T. e. vagrans juvenile male - 20g / 45cm

[guidofatherof5]

Hmmmm..... I beginning to think you like Vagrans, Stefan.:)

[Stefan-A]

Is it that obvious?

Well, the two snakes I just added to the list were born here, they're not new acquisitions. The yearling male is the one I kept from last year's clutch and the juvenile is the one born this year. I've been trying to find it a new home since April or May.

[guidofatherof5]

Is it that obvious?

Well, the two snakes I just added to the list were born here, they're not new acquisitions. The yearling male is the one I kept from last year's clutch and the juvenile is the one born this year. I've been trying to find it a new home since April or May.

In your opinion which garter is the easiest to get in you part of the world? Which garter do you think one is being bred the most?

[Stefan-A]

In your opinion which garter is the easiest to get in you part of the world? Which garter do you think one is being bred the most?
My own. I'm not even joking.

Last year, I saw someone selling radix babies. One other person besides me had bred garters that year and I bet the mating was accidental in their case.

This year, it's even better. I had apparently managed to produce the most babies for the market in the entire country. In fact, my babies comprised 100% of the babies for sale. Do you remember how many babies my garters produced this year? One.

And it gets better. Guess how many garters have been put up for sale total this year in this country, including the one I'm trying to sell now? Two. Guess how many of them were produced by me? Both. The other was one of last year's clutch.

So, last week somebody posted pictures of an infernalis pair on the only Finnish herp forum on the internet. The person had brought them over from Sweden. Well guess what, turns out they're infernalis x tetrataenia crosses. Two useless snakes. A bloody pair. Guess what will probably be on the market in a couple of years?

The situation here is truly pathetic. It almost makes me want to get the hell out of the hobby and just leave it to shrivel up and die.

[infernalis]

It almost makes me want to get the hell out of the hobby and just leave it to shrivel up and die.


Why deny yourself something that you obviously enjoy.....

[Stefan-A]

Why deny yourself something that you obviously enjoy.....
What I meant with "the hobby" was specifically keeping garters. The only enjoyment I get out of it, comes from actually keeping the snakes I currently have. I have no intentions of expanding my collection. In fact, I'm not sure any of them will be replaced by other garters when they eventually start dying off. Great little animals, but there's no future for the genus in this country.

One thing is damn sure, I'm not going to have them produce any more litters.

[Stefan-A]

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes10/one-hide.jpg

One hide's as good as another.

[BUSHSNAKE]

nice pic but you said you use peat moss and leaf litter as substrate, what is that paper towels?

[Stefan-A]

nice pic but you said you use peat moss and leaf litter as substrate, what is that paper towels?
That is indeed paper towels.

I switch substrate almost every time I change it, because I'm looking for the ideal one. I always come back to using peat moss, though. Right now none of my snakes are on peat moss. I do have Coco Husk in one enclosure, newspaper in four and paper towels in two.

[BUSHSNAKE]

finding an ideal substrate for thamnophis is a pain in the ---, ive been experimenting myself, even thought of trying your peat leaf combo, but i always go back to Carefresh, its the best

[guidofatherof5]

finding an ideal substrate for thamnophis is a pain in the ---, ive been experimenting myself, even thought of trying your peat leaf combo, but i always go back to Carefresh, its the best

Have you ever tried compressed aspen pellets?

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/bedding_Quick_e-mail_view.jpg

[ConcinusMan]

I still like my fir bark (reptibark) and coconut fiber mixture the best. I don't have that many tanks so the cost isn't all that prohibitive for me. I'm sure if I had lots of snakes and tanks, I'd probably go with something different.

As usual, great photo Stefan!

[guidofatherof5]

Very nice photo.
Is that your temp/humidity gauge hide?

[ConcinusMan]

I think his snake is talking to him. Remember I said that our snakes talk to us? We just have to learn how to listen. I think he's saying, "See those readings? That's how I like it. That feels good. Right there."

LoL.

[guidofatherof5]

I think his snake is talking to him. Remember I said that our snakes talk to us? We just have to learn how to listen. I think he's saying, "See those readings? That's how I like it. That feels good. Right there."

LoL.

Funny, I thought the snake wanted him to check the batteries:D

[ConcinusMan]

:p:p:p:rolleyes:

That IS funny!:D

[Stefan-A]

Very nice photo.
Is that your temp/humidity gauge hide?
Correct.

[Stefan-A]

Funny, I thought the snake wanted him to check the batteries:D
Yeah, I told him I already knew that they needed changing.

[ConcinusMan]

In that case he was probably just trying to help.

[Stefan-A]

In that case he was probably just trying to help.
Yeah, there's a little electrical engineer in that one. Like breeder, like garter.

[Stefan-A]

A couple of pictures from July.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes10/tetraproblem/33398_394003907713_248001822713_4298561_6483390_n. jpg

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes10/tetraproblem/33398_394003912713_248001822713_4298562_8102177_n. jpg

The pictures were taken by the vet. I stole them from their facebook page.

[gregmonsta]

Quite an op for the poor thing to go through by the looks of it!!!

[Stefan-A]

Quite an op for the poor thing to go through by the looks of it!!!
It probably wasn't easy for the snake, but ultimately it didn't require any operating. As the vet described it, they pushed the eggs back in a little, injected mineral oil around the mass that was causing the blockage and then they "milked" it out. The blockage was caused by the mass in the first picture and behind it was what you see in the second.

[ConcinusMan]

*gag* *hack* eeeeww..

Nice job. Good save.:D

[Stefan-A]

By the way, if somebody still wonders what's going on there: That's what egg binding looks like in a garter. Or rather what it looks like after it's been resolved.

I wish I had taken pictures of the snake before I got it to the vet, but it sort of wasn't a high priority at the time.

[guidofatherof5]

I take it the snake is back to normal?
Did she have any history with incubation troubles?

[Stefan-A]

She's doing great. If it wasn't for the gigantic lump, there were no indicators that anything was wrong. No loss of appetite, wasn't lethargic, shed normally and defecated normally. The vet pumped her full of antibiotics and I kept her in sterile conditions for a couple of months and everything seems to be okay.

This was the first clutch (unfertilized eggs, just to be clear) in her life and it'll be interesting to see if it happens again next season. The vet did mention some form of bottleneck somewhere in her plumbing, so what's for damn sure, is that she'll never be bred.

[ConcinusMan]

What a shame. Looks like she has potential for high production. Still, I have to wonder, would the same thing happen if the eggs were fertile? Hmmm...

[Stefan-A]

Possibly, not necessarily, but it certainly isn't worth the risk to test it.

Never had any serious plans to breed her and this year I've had a bit of trouble getting even one garter sold, but I did consider getting her a male before.

[infernalis]

By the way, if somebody still wonders what's going on there: That's what egg binding looks like in a garter. Or rather what it looks like after it's been resolved.

I wish I had taken pictures of the snake before I got it to the vet, but it sort of wasn't a high priority at the time.


I was wondering... Thanks.

[indigoman]

My T. marcianus female gave birth to 12 healthy young, Ibelieve she then went into a second breeding cycle. My males in their setup begin to act as if they detect the pheromones by flicking of their tongue and constant searching to get out of their setup. Ikept them seperated and the result was egg binding similiar to Stefan. I suspect that should the eggs had been fertilized this would not have occurd.

[Stefan-A]

From one issue to another, half of my snakes have either gone off-feed or have started to show a significantly reduced interest in food during the past 2 weeks. Seems that it's time for brumation again.

[guidofatherof5]

My T. marcianus female gave birth to 12 healthy young, Ibelieve she then went into a second breeding cycle.

Congrats on the babies being born.

[indigoman]

Thanks Steve, the kids and mom are all doing fine she just needed some help like Stefan's girl.

[Stefan-A]

So, I just went to the local pet store to pick up food for my snakes. Apparently some things never change.

The smaller pinkie in the picture below is what the local pet store under old management. Price: 1.80€ ($2.40). The pinkie above it is what I bought directly from a breeder at a pet show. Price: 0.50€ ($0.66).

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes10/ohlol-mouse-old.jpg




In the picture below is what I just brought home from the local pet store, now under new management and as a part of a chain. It's a 2 week old mouse, with a weight of about 5.5 grams. Price: 2.60€ ($3.45).

The .223 cartridge is just for scale. It's also about half the price of the mouse.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes10/ohlol-mouse.jpg


Yeah, I had hoped that things would get better once the store was under new management and they started to increase the amount of reptile related stuff they sold. Not so. Take something like Exo Terra Reptile Caves. I see that Amazon.com sells the "Medium" for about 6.80€ ($8.95) and an online store based in this country sells them for 6.90€.
The local pet store? Over 12€ (~$16).

It's nothing short of pathetic. The next time I visit that store, it'll have to be an emergency.

[gregmonsta]

It's a shame that reptile stores have such a mark up. They do have rent and rates but in todays climate they have to do something to adapt. Online services is what I've been sticking too and getting frozen mice direct from the breeder simply can't be beaten. My last batch of 100 pinkies were £0.14 each (about 16 Eurocents).

[infernalis]

That sucks Stefan.

even at big chain stores an expensive pinkie is $1 US

[ConcinusMan]

There's only one place around here that had pinkies for $1 - a privately owned independent pet store that recently stopped selling them. That was the cheapest I could find. Then there's petco, where you get 3 for $5. Live adults are $2.99

[HazAnga]

That's robbery. The local family owned petstore I go to sometimes and used to work at, sells their frozen pinkies for $.99 CDN. I'm not sure what the price is at the chain stores is, but from the breeder I've found just recently sells her pinkies for $.55 CDN. Which is almost half the price. She even does weekly deliverys and all you gotta do is meet her at a rest stop on the side of the freeway.

[ConcinusMan]

There are almost no "local family owned" pet stores left in many cities in the USA. There used to be at least 6 of them in Vancouver, WA alone. Then petco and petsmart moved into town in the 1990's and almost immediately half of the independent stores closed, including our one and only reptile-specific store. last pet store closed just a few months ago and I lost my source for affordable pinkies.

Same thing happened to the two local chain pharmacies when walgreens and rite aid came to town. They went out of business.

[Stefan-A]

I gave the wrong impression about it just turning into a part of a larger chain. It was a part of a chain before, just a smaller one. There's a second pet store that's a part of the old chain, that didn't have anything reptile related stuff last time I visited it. Not even substrate.

They just don't seem to get that these days, they're going to have to compete with private breeders and stores that operate online. There's something about this town that makes every store, whether they sell pets or electronics, double its prices. These people are going to have to cut down and give up and close down that store in about a year, if they don't realise this.

When I visited the vet this summer, he mentioned that they might start selling "cheap high quality rodents" that they would import together with the Helsinki Zoo. I wonder what came of those plans.

[Stefan-A]

About 4 months later:

T. e. vagrans big female - 211g / 83cm
Another 4 months later - 276g. Mighty suspicious.

[guidofatherof5]

Are you thinking, gravid or something else?
If gravid a delivery may be soon then.

[Stefan-A]

This is the snake that had a miscavige (miscarriage) in March this year. She hasn't even seen a male since then. I consider babies less likely than slugs, but something is definitely coming and I'll be plugging the gaps in the enclosure until that happens.

[guidofatherof5]

I hope the situation turns out well.
Keep us posted.

[EasternGirl]

Really cute pics! I love the close up of the face!

[ConcinusMan]

Another 4 months later - 276g. Mighty suspicious.

"Mighty suspicious" - That's an understatement. That girl is gravid. I still say babies are just as likely as slugs if she has mated in the past year or two (which she has) but we'll see.

Maybe last time her eggs were already bad before she had a way to fertilize them and maybe this time you'll get babies.

[Stefan-A]

Maybe last time her eggs were already bad before she had a way to fertilize them and maybe this time you'll get babies.
This was the female that gave birth to one live baby and 14 stillborn in March, perhaps miscarriage was a poor euphemism to use. I suppose we'll see what she'll squeeze out this time.

[gregmonsta]

Fingers crossed for a nice surprise :D

[Stefan-A]

Fingers crossed for a nice surprise :D
Slugs would be a nice surprise. She's big enough to launch maybe 15-20 babies and last time it took me 7 months to get rid of one.

[gregmonsta]

Finger crossed for slugs it is then :rolleyes:

[Stefan-A]

Yeah.

I was just wondering why she was getting fatter despite being on a diet and why she's constantly snapping at my fingers every time I unlock the enclosure. :D

[ConcinusMan]

Slugs would be a nice surprise. She's big enough to launch maybe 15-20 babies and last time it took me 7 months to get rid of one.

And I thought I had a hard time finding homes for this years offspring.:rolleyes:

Never thought I'd say this on the garter snake forum but...

Good luck. Here's hoping for slugs!

[Stefan-A]

I do know someone who might be looking for food for baby O. hannahs...

[ConcinusMan]

Well there ya go. No sense letting them go to waste.:p

Oh boy, I'm going to get it from Steve for that comment. I just know it.:rolleyes:

Wouldn't surprise me if he offered to book a flight and come to your house to pick them up personally.:p

[Stefan-A]

Fed my snakes yesterday. Saw something interesting. My '08 male vagrans struck and threw 2 or 3 loops around the mouse, but let go just as quickly. The whole thing took about 3 seconds. Should have had the camera running.

[guidofatherof5]

Wow, never saw that from a garter.

[ssssnakeluvr]

vagrans are known to do that...not necessarily constricting to death, but holding on til the saliva calms them down. have seen it several times myself. I don't use live adult mice with garters now, so haven't seen it for a while

[ConcinusMan]

Interesting. Maybe this is how the evolution of constriction begins. If that doesn't pan out, they can always develop more potent secretions from their Devorney's glands through natural selection.

I've seen garters use coils to push prey against an object, or to help with getting a good grip on it until they begin to swallow, but that's a little different than actually quickly coiling around it.

[kibakiba]

Snap coiled around a somewhat large piece of worm I had fed her once. She's crazy with her food. The worm wasn't moving and it wasn't big enough to cause a problem if it were alive... But, I figured it was just because she is one crazy girl.Smelt like salmon, that's probably why. She goes crazy, striking at everything if she just smells it.

[ConcinusMan]

If I were able to go back roughly 4,400 posts I could show you that I've been saying it all along. Any concinnus I've ever had before I joined was the same way. Smell fish.. go bezerk!

More recently, when I was talking about them pining their food down, it was wiggly worms, Chantel. It's as if they were trying to say "hold still!"

[kibakiba]

About a month ago Squirt would eat nothing but the wiggly worms, he hated grabbing onto them though... He'd hit them, miss them, become tangled in them... He got wise to that and let them down in his water dish before swallowing it. It was funny seeing him carrying it to the water dish and dropping them in, watching it intently. He only did that twice before I started feeding him worm chunks and moved him to the baby tank, where he has developed a much better appetite.

[drache]

not sure which one of my garters did that, but I know I've seen it