Stefan's garters

[Stefan-A]

wow stefan!!!! that one is my ULTIMATE FAVORITE WANDERING GARTER!!!!!!!!! i love his black head!!!!! more pics of him!!!!! and maybe one of all three!!!! how many garters do you have??
Three wandering, one San Francisco. That one will be moving into more photography-friendly quarters later today, so maybe you'll get to see more pictures of him.

[Snake lover 3-25]

ok cool!!! :D

[anji1971]

Just remember, Tami & Shanley...........one of those vagrans is MINE. I've already been threatened with a gun and ninjas, so I've got dibs!:D

[Snake lover 3-25]

ok lol but i call the last one!!!:eek:

[Stefan-A]

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/january09-tetra1.jpg

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/january09-mvagr1.jpg

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/january09-mvagr2.jpg

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/january09-mvagr3.jpg

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/january09-mvagr4.jpg

[Stefan-A]

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/january09-mvagr5.jpg

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/january09-mvagr6.jpg

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/january09-mvagr7.jpg

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/january09-mvagr8.jpg


Grainy photos, ended up using the wrong ISO. And I had to correct the colours.

[adamanteus]

Wrong ISO or not, that's a great set of photos, Stefan.

[guidofatherof5]

I know it's repetitive but great photos!

[jitami]

Very nice as usual!!! Like the black head, too, but the one I quoted is my fave :) Anji there's one for each of us, let's go! Three women can handle the ninjas... and well, he can't shoot all of us at once <gg>

[Snake lover 3-25]

awww!!! he's a cutie!!! i like him and the best!!!!:D

[Stefan-A]

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/jan-09-09.jpg

[infernalis]

Great photo Stefan, (as usual for you)

This is one of my favourite threads.;)

[Snake lover 3-25]

wow that is too cool!! great pic!!!!:D

[Stefan-A]

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/jan-09-09-2.jpg

[Snake lover 3-25]

yup def. my favorite.

[drache]

great shots again, Stefan
they're lovely snakes, aren't they?

[olive oil]

Very nice looking snake. Great pictures.

[NikkiSixx]

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/jan-09-09.jpg
OMG!!:eek: i LOVE the way your pictures turn out!!! Me and dad should learn how to make our pictures like that!:D

[Stefan-A]

OMG!!:eek: i LOVE the way your pictures turn out!!! Me and dad should learn how to make our pictures like that!:D
Get a graphics editing program. Even if one tries to take pictures that don't need any editing, sometimes it's necessary to be able to crop the pictures, adjust the colours etc. I'm using the ancient Paint Shop Pro 7.

[NikkiSixx]

Get a graphics editing program. Even if one tries to take pictures that don't need any editing, sometimes it's necessary to be able to crop the pictures, adjust the colours etc. I'm using the ancient Paint Shop Pro 7.

cool i will have to try t when i get home... i need to post pictures of my king anyways.:D

[Stefan-A]

With and without corrected colours:

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/natrixmaura-2009-01-14-002.jpg

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/natrixmaura-2009-01-14-004-b4.jpg

[NikkiSixx]

which one is the right colors? that is AMAZING!:D what kind of snake is that?

[Stefan-A]

The first picture is the edited one, the second is the original (the lighting in the room turns everything yellow). The snake is a viperine snake, Natrix maura. It's a viper mimic, hence the name.


Here's another (corrected) photo of the same snake.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/natrixmaura-2009-01-14-001.jpg

That's what the snake looks like in reality, but like I said, the lamps in the room make everything yellow, so the colours have to be corrected.

[NikkiSixx]

The first picture is the edited one, the second is the original (the lighting in the room turns everything yellow). The snake is a viperine snake, Natrix maura. It's a viper mimic, hence the name.


Here's another (corrected) photo of the same snake.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/natrixmaura-2009-01-14-001.jpg


Oh that is the cutest snake in the world is it rear fanged? or what? thanks for the help, Oh will photo shop do the same thing?

[Stefan-A]

It's not rear fanged, garters are probably more venomous than them. Photoshop will do the same as Paint Shop, only better, if you have a complete version and not Photoshop Elements (I have that one, too, but I don't use it much).

[NikkiSixx]

It's not rear fanged, garters are probably more venomous than them. Photo shop will do the same as Paint Shop, only better, if you have a complete version and not Photo shop Elements (I have that one, too, but I don't use it much).

okay cause I'm a school not home so i cant look and see if i have paint shop or not, but i know i have photo shop. how big would the snakes get?:D

[Stefan-A]

okay cause I'm a school not home so i cant look and see if i have paint shop or not, but i know i have photo shop. how big would the snakes get?:D
Smaller than most garters. Between 50 and 100 cm, or about 20-40".

[NikkiSixx]

Smaller than most garters. Between 50 and 100 cm, or about 20-40".

Cool, i have to find father so i can get me some.... if i can even have them here in Utah!:D

[Stefan-A]

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/natrixmaura-2009-01-14-003.jpg

The male: 26.7 cm
The female: 29.4 cm

Try to imagine snakes with the diet of a garter and the metabolism of a corn. They don't exactly grow quickly. In fact, I've seen rocks weather faster than these guys grow.

[adamanteus]

They may not be growing particularly fast, Stefan, but they look really good.

[Snake lover 3-25]

wow!!! i love the top one!!!!

[Stefan-A]

Thanks. :)

Would like to try sexing them, James?

[adamanteus]

I thought you knew their sexes, Stefan?

[Stefan-A]

I thought you knew their sexes, Stefan?
I asked for 1.1, but their papers say 0.0.2.

However, I have a fairly good idea what they are. ;)

[adamanteus]

From the photo I would say the striped one is the female..... if you're forcing me to commit!

[Stefan-A]

From the photo I would say the striped one is the female..... if you're forcing me to commit!
That's my conclusion, as well. They have very different tail shapes, so I'm pretty sure I got what I asked for.

[Stefan-A]

And this is what they eat.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/maurafood1.jpg

I just prepared another batch for freezing.

[Snake lover 3-25]

no pinkies?

[drache]

sashimi - yum

[Stefan-A]

no pinkies?
No pinkies. Not yet anyway. Once they're big enough, I'll see if I can get them to take pinkies.

[anji1971]

No pinkies. Not yet anyway. Once they're big enough, I'll see if I can get them to take pinkies.

Bet they'd like the fish jello.;)

[Snake lover 3-25]

really? wow lol i guess they look bigger than they are......

[Stefan-A]

really? wow lol i guess they look bigger than they are......
No, they're only about 10-12 inches.

[Snake lover 3-25]

wow lol they really seem bigger i would've guessed 20 inches lol

[Stefan-A]

Bet they'd like the fish jello.;)
They might, actually.

Feeding them is a pain in the arse. They're both shy and picky. Impossible to feed from tongs, you just have to leave a bowl with fish in the enclosure and hope they don't see you.

[Snake lover 3-25]

lol picky snakes are a pain.

[brain]

Bet they'd like the fish jello.;)

Is this another food supplement?

Or home food source?

[drache]

Is this another food supplement?

Or home food source?
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/enclosures/3208-trout-mixture.html

[anji1971]

They might, actually.

Feeding them is a pain in the arse. They're both shy and picky. Impossible to feed from tongs, you just have to leave a bowl with fish in the enclosure and hope they don't see you.

Are they known to be shy like that, or is it just yours? Maybe they'll come around eventually.
I could ship you some fish mush, but I think it would be extremely unpalatable by the time it got to you, even for the snakes.:rolleyes::D

[Stefan-A]

Are they known to be shy like that, or is it just yours? Maybe they'll come around eventually.
I could ship you some fish mush, but I think it would be extremely unpalatable by the time it got to you, even for the snakes.:rolleyes::D
The adults aren't supposed to be, but these snakes are still babies. Wouldn't know if it was normal for them or not.

And maybe I'm just unused to snakes requiring that you scent their fish with another type of fish. :rolleyes: The fish they like is low on calcium. The fish I'd like to feed them is usually rejected without scenting.

[drache]

that's interesting
what kind of fish do they like?

[Stefan-A]

that's interesting
what kind of fish do they like?
They respond well to salmon and I really wish I could get my hands on salmon fry or parr. Fillets are boneless and since they don't eat it right away, the pieces have to lie in a bit of water so that they don't dry out or stick to the dish, which makes it pointless to try to use vitamin supplements. So it's easiest just to mix salmon/trout with pieces of fish that have small enough bones.

[drache]

They respond well to salmon and I really wish I could get my hands on salmon fry or parr. Fillets are boneless and since they don't eat it right away, the pieces have to lie in a bit of water so that they don't dry out or stick to the dish, which makes it pointless to try to use vitamin supplements. So it's easiest just to mix salmon/trout with pieces of fish that have small enough bones.
what about a liquid supplement?

[Stefan-A]

what about a liquid supplement?
Already giving that with their drinking water, but it feels like it's just a poor substitute.

[Stefan-A]

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/maurapic2.jpg
Viperine snakes.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/maurapic1.jpg
Their enclosure.


http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/killer1.jpg
Female wandering garter. Possibly gravid and a real killer.

[gregmonsta]

Those viperines are gorgeous. Love the paleness of the top one :)

[guidofatherof5]

Viperine snakes.


Their enclosure.


http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/killer1.jpg
Female wandering garter. Possibly gravid and a real killer.

What did you mean by real killer. As in looks(pretty) or aggression. I see some attitude in that face.

[anji1971]

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/maurapic2.jpg
Viperine snakes.


These snakes are SOOOOO cool. I love their eyes!
I may like these even more than that vagrans........:D

[Stefan-A]

What did you mean by real killer. As in looks(pretty) or aggression. I see some attitude in that face.
I mean "a real killer" as in "tried to kill one of her cage mates".

[guidofatherof5]

Wow.:eek:
Didn't see that answer coming. Was this a feeding time attack? Just out of a bad attitude?

[Stefan-A]

Wow.:eek:
Didn't see that answer coming. Was this a feeding time attack? Just out of a bad attitude?
Well, this is what happened: Two wandering garters and a San Francisco were being kept in the same enclosure. I sat in front of my computer a meter and a half away. I heard them thrashing around and I immediately realised that something's wrong. I turned around to see the SanFran racing around the enclosure with the smallest snake in the group, this wandering garter, in pursuit. Suddenly the wandering garter changes direction, cuts straight across the enclosure, intercepts the SanFran and grabs it behind the head. At this time I'm already unlocking the enclosure. The wandering garter starts working its jaws. I grabbed it by the neck and after a couple of seconds it let go of the SanFran. Long story short, the SanFran was shaken for maybe an hour and the offender ended up in solitary confinement.

No food had been in the enclosure for several weeks, as I feed them separately outside the enclosure. This also happened several days after the previous feeding, so nothing really suggests that this was a "feeding accident".

[guidofatherof5]

Snake fight. I bet the S.F. said something the Wandering didn't like. Maybe said something about her man. You know how those girls can be.

[Sid]

Great photos, Stefan. And thanks for sharing the info on the Wandering. I keep two Wandering's myself and they are housed together.... starting to think seriously about seperating mine.

[drache]

wow
all of them are beautiful
and the photos are excellent
scary story though

[anji1971]

That was a close call!:eek:
How is your tetra doing, by the way? Haven't seen any pics of her lately, unless I missed some during my "busy month".:)

[Stefan-A]

That was a close call!:eek:
How is your tetra doing, by the way? Haven't seen any pics of her lately, unless I missed some during my "busy month".:)
She's actually doing fine.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/victim1.jpg

Not a very recent picture, but I have a more recent video.

YouTube - Thamnophis sirtalis tetrataenia (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_j2W8SUzPI)
I got hit by a small vote bot attack a week ago, so the ratings on about a dozen of my videos dropped from 4½-5 stars to 1 within an hour and all comments were marked as spam. I don't feel like creating a hundred or so fake accounts to get them back to where they were, so rate if you can.

[guidofatherof5]

Very nice video.
Love the close-ups.

[anji1971]

Cool!:cool:
She's a darned good eater, Stefan!:eek:
The fish in that video looks huge in comparison; most of my Easterns would have run screaming from that thing!!:p

[Stefan-A]

That was a close call!:eek:
You'll be happy to hear that I might actually name her (the wandering garter, not the tetra) because of it.

[drache]

she's a good looking snake - nice video too
I don't think they look so very different from infernalis though

[gregmonsta]

Good vid mate :) ... what a well behaved snake :D

[anji1971]

You'll be happy to hear that I might actually name her (the wandering garter, not the tetra) because of it.

Happy? I'm downright impressed!:D
I think you should name all of them.

[Stefan-A]

Happy? I'm downright impressed!:D
I think you should name all of them.
Well, the other ones haven't done anything to deserve a name.

I was thinking about naming this one "Malky". I'm going to let Greg explain that one. :D

[anji1971]

Well, the other ones haven't done anything to deserve a name.


Sigh............you have such high expectations for them.:rolleyes::D

[gregmonsta]

The ultimate Scottish greeting :D ... Slithers, my red-sided, is definately Scottish then :D .... *smacks head against wall with great force for practice*

[Stefan-A]

The ultimate Scottish greeting :D ... Slithers, my red-sided, is definately Scottish then :D .... *smacks head against wall with great force for practice*
Right, I better stop using Wiktionary as a reference and just ask the locals first. :D

[Stefan-A]

Sigh............you have such high expectations for them.:rolleyes::D
Come on, it's not that much to ask. :D

[guidofatherof5]

Well, the other ones haven't done anything to deserve a name.

Does this mean the only way another will get a name is after committing murder!

[Stefan-A]

Does this mean the only way another will get a name is after committing murder!
Not at all. In fact, this one would lose its name if one of the others tried to do the same. But it might be enough if they pick up a strange habit, sprout legs (in which case I'd name it "Wheels"), write an opera or anything else that the other ones aren't doing.

[gregmonsta]

Malky - affectionate term for a head-butt :D

[Stefan-A]

Malky - affectionate term for a head-butt :D
According to online dictionaries, it was also a term for a beating/physical assault/murder. Anyway, always consult the locals first. :D

[gregmonsta]

According to online dictionaries, it was also a term for a beating/physical assault/murder. Anyway, always consult the locals first. :D

:rolleyes: Depends how vicious the butting action is :D

[Stefan-A]

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/natrixmaurapair1.jpg

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/natrixmauramale1.jpg

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/thamnsirtatetra.jpg

[drache]

oh Sefan
I know I've got lovely snakes myself, but I want yours also
photos are good too though

[anji1971]

They're gorgeous, as usual!
Rhea, last I checked, he wasn't giving any away...............;):(:D

[Stefan-A]

Rhea, last I checked, he wasn't giving any away...............;):(:D
Oh, you're right about that. :D

[drache]

it's okay
Sammy just shed and is doing a great job consoling me

[guidofatherof5]

Great looking snakes.

[Stefan-A]

Oh and here's the latest video. Don't forget to watch it in HD.

YouTube - Viperine snakes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=777JCQXtqZU)

[drache]

Sammy liked the video

[gregmonsta]

Cheers for that :D enjoyed watching it.

[Stefan-A]

Cheers for that :D enjoyed watching it.
As much as I enjoyed getting musked while filming it? :D

[Snake lover 3-25]

great pics!

awesome video too:)

[gregmonsta]

As much as I enjoyed getting musked while filming it? :D

Lol it was worth every squirt :rolleyes:. start a potty training regime :D

[count dewclaw]

Nice photos of your wonderful snakes. Thanks for the video, too. The viperine snakes looked so much bigger without your hand for comparison.

[Stefan-A]

Nice photos of your wonderful snakes. Thanks for the video, too. The viperine snakes looked so much bigger without your hand for comparison.
You should have seen them when I got them. They're more than twice as long now, as when I bought them.

[count dewclaw]

Wow, they were tiny! How large do they get as adults?

[Stefan-A]

They grow to about 50-100cm, females grow larger than males. The males mature at three and females at around five years of age in the wild. Garters seem to grow 2-3 times as fast.

[count dewclaw]

They do grow slow. I guess that is part of the reason why I thought they were bigger....I was expecting them to grow like garters. I'm sure they are worth the wait. They are great looking animals.

[adamanteus]

I only just got around to watching the video, Stefan. They are lovely snakes.:)

[Stefan-A]

Thanks. Filming another one right now. :) Feeding day, you see.

[guidofatherof5]

Thanks. Filming another one right now. :) Feeding day, you see.

No, I don't see......yet. Looking forward to it, though.

[Stefan-A]

YouTube - Feeding the Viperine snakes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08_SnBBh6oA)

View it in "HD" if you can.

[guidofatherof5]

Very nice. What kind of fish were they eating?

[Stefan-A]

Very nice. What kind of fish were they eating?
Vendace, Coregonus albula.

[Isisnofret]

great pictures :)

[Stefan-A]

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakesies08/vagr-feb05.jpg
September 2007.


http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/progression/vag-jan08.jpg
January 2008.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakesies08/big1-size.jpg
April 2008.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakesies08/bigvagrans22-06-2008-2.jpg
June 2008.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakesies08/sep08-big.jpg
September 2008.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/progression/vag-march09.jpg
March 2009.


The magazine and the pamphlet are there for scale and are both 297mm long (same as an A4 sheet of paper).

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

wow, that's a very cool progression!!!:D I need to start doing things like that!

[Snake lover 3-25]

wow neat!!!!

[Stefan-A]

In other news, one of my wandering garters is up 43 grams (or 41%) in 8 weeks.

[Snake lover 3-25]

wow!!!! meadow is up 60 in nine........ she's gonna blow!!!!

[Stefan-A]

YouTube - Why they are called Viperine snakes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJEv_jRKe6A)

[count dewclaw]

They sure do look viper-like when they are angry/annoyed! :D Great video.

[gregmonsta]

Great vid :D excellent mimicry!!!!

[Stefan-A]

Just finished measuring them, too. The female is 32.3 cm and the male is 30.0 cm. Both are about 3 cm longer than in January, so that should give a clue as to their growth rate.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/snappy-maura.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

Sounds like you have some growing machines there.

[drache]

that was fun - thanks

[Stefan-A]

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/66days-1.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

Very nice video, Stefan.

Remember, what goes around, comes around.
You know, your going to get tagged when you least expect it.
PAYBACK!

[Stefan-A]

Very nice video, Stefan.

Remember, what goes around, comes around.
You know, your going to get tagged when you least expect it.
PAYBACK!
That one has tagged me lots of times, just never with his mouth open. ;)

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

wow Stefan!!!

Those viperine snakes are ABSOLUTELY GORGEOUS. And your vagrans is looking thickkkkk :D

[Stefan-A]

Thank you. :D

[Stefan-A]

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/babies/babe20days.jpg

20 days old, shed coming up.

[count dewclaw]

Looking fat and sassy!

[Stefan-A]

They are definitely fat, they seem to eat their own bodyweight in food every time.

[guidofatherof5]

I don't think a baby can be fat. Loved, but not fat.
They look great Stefan.

[Snaky]

They look indeed great:)

[Stefan-A]

Haven't taken many photos lately, but I did take these:

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/summervagrans1.jpg

My larger vagrans female.




http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/summervagrans2.jpg

Same snake, same day, slightly different light conditions.




http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/summervagransbaby1jpg.jpg

The one remaining baby.

[Zephyr]

That female is certainly attractive. ;)

[reptileparadise]

Is she gravid again?
She looks great!

[Stefan-A]

Is she gravid again?
She looks great!
No, she's just obese. :rolleyes:

That one hasn't been gravid yet, her sister has.

[reptileparadise]

my bad....
She (and her sister with kids) look absolutely awesome!

[Stefan-A]

Thanks.

Any tips for getting a snake to lose weight? ;) (She's already on a low-fat diet.)

[reptileparadise]

Feeding smaller amounts for a longer time. Keep the temperatures normal.

Don't just stop feeding. This will make her burn a lot of fat in a short time which might lead to vitamine poisening. (Some vitamins are stored in fat and will be released into the bloodstream in pretty big and possibly dangerous amounts)

[Stefan-A]

Yeah, didn't even cross my mind to stop feeding her.

I cut the mice from her diet and replaced it with slightly smaller amounts of fish.

[Zephyr]

Yeah, didn't even cross my mind to stop feeding her.

I cut the mice from her diet and replaced it with slightly smaller amounts of fish.Maybe feed a fish species that has a lower fat content?

[Stefan-A]

Maybe feed a fish species that has a lower fat content?
Already been doing that. :) Just to be clear, I've been doing that for a while and I'm seeing results, even if she's not quite there yet.

Maybe it's time to tip the enclosure on its side and put the water bowl near the top, so that she'd have to do a bit of climbing to reach it. ;)

[Zephyr]

Already been doing that. :) Just to be clear, I've been doing that for a while and I'm seeing results, even if she's not quite there yet.

Maybe it's time to tip the enclosure on its side and put the water bowl near the top, so that she'd have to do a bit of climbing to reach it. ;)
Exercise is always good. :)
Maybe you could put an aquarium with some fish in it next to her tank. I'm sure she'd get plenty of exercise from that. :P

[Stefan-A]

The weather was almost perfect, so I took the keeper outside for a photo shoot.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/babies/stunner1.jpg

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/babies/stunner2.jpg

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/babies/stunner3.jpg



She's changed a bit in coloration since early she was born, although I suspect that she'll be shedding next week and that it may have something to do with it. She started out like this:

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/babies/someofsix1.jpg

She's the one out of focus in the center of the picture.

[reptileparadise]

She's getting pretty big :D

[gregmonsta]

Nice to see how they progress :D

[Stefan-A]

Yeah, I'd love to see how her siblings are developing.

[Stefan-A]

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/vagrans-oct09-3.jpg

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/vagrans-oct09-2.jpg

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/vagrans-oct09-1.jpg

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/vagrans-oct09-0.jpg

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

is that the keeper!? She is looovely :D nice and chubby!!!

[Stefan-A]

That is him/her indeed. I thought it was a female, but I'm not sure anymore. :D

[Stefan-A]

Just finished measuring them, too. The female is 32.3 cm and the male is 30.0 cm. Both are about 3 cm longer than in January, so that should give a clue as to their growth rate.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/snappy-maura.jpg
An update on these guys:

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/mauras-okt09.jpg

Still growing at about 1 cm per month. The female is about 37 cm and the male 36 cm.

[gregmonsta]

They're coming on great :D ... I've been enjoying their regular youtube spots ;)

[Stefan-A]

They're coming on great :D ... I've been enjoying their regular youtube spots ;)
Then you'll probably enjoy the next video. ;)

[reptileparadise]

link?

Lovely N. maura...the more I think about it, the more I regret selling my breedinggroup a couple of years ago...

[drache]

yeah - they are lovely

[Stefan-A]

Father...

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/dec09/dec-mvagrans01.jpg




...and son.


http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/dec09/dec-mvagrans-keeper02.jpg

[gregmonsta]

The son has the touch of evil in that pic :D

[Stefan-A]

Nah, he's a nice little kid. A bit jumpy, but not nasty.

[guidofatherof5]

Very handsome Father and Son. How about a picture of Mom, if that's possible.

[Stefan-A]

Very handsome Father and Son. How about a picture of Mom, if that's possible.
http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/dec09/dec-fvagrans01.jpg

Not the best one, but a fairly recent one. Also note the fused supralabials.

[guidofatherof5]

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes09/dec09/dec-fvagrans01.jpg

Not the best one, but a fairly recent one. Also note the fused supralabials.

She's beautiful. Did any of her babies get fused supralabials? That is the first time I've ever seen that. Does it occur on both sides of the face. Any problems shedding that area? Thanks for posting the photo.

[Stefan-A]

She's beautiful. Did any of her babies get fused supralabials? That is the first time I've ever seen that. Does it occur on both sides of the face. Any problems shedding that area? Thanks for posting the photo.
None of the offspring has it and neither does her sister. It's just on that side of the face and so far she has had absolutely no problems shedding.

[drache]

lovely
are the parents really that different in colour, or is it the photos?

[Stefan-A]

lovely
are the parents really that different in colour, or is it the photos?
The mother looks very different from the offspring, which does look a lot like the father did when I got him. The father has the same general pattern, black head and facial markings, but he's turned more grey over the last 15 months.

Here's an old picture of the dad at roughly the same age:


http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakesies08/hamm08/nuvagrans.jpg

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

they are just lovely! Isn't it awesome to watch your own babies grow?!

[Stefan-A]

they are just lovely! Isn't it awesome to watch your own babies grow?!
Yeah. I haven't seen or heard anything about the ones I've sold, though.

[drache]

I love the colouring the father developed

[Stefan-A]

I love the colouring the father developed
I'm afraid the picture's not very truthful. I used a bit of creative lighting (read: flash and paper towel).

[drache]

ahh, okay
so is he more brownish in the flesh, or is the grey sort of the right colour?

[Stefan-A]

He was a bit more brownish before, but he is becoming more grey. Doesn't look that clean in real life, I think.

[drache]

He was a bit more brownish before, but he is becoming more grey. Doesn't look that clean in real life, I think.
oh, I see what you're saying
the colour is about right, but that fresh-peeled sharp look isn't

[Snaky]

Mom, dad and son look very nice. I still find it a pitty that they loose their black face, but seeing it slowly fading away is also fun :)

[commongartersnake]

Your garters are very nice, there color skin and eye clearness is very healthy. Your doing good, I can understand why you would be upset or torn that the people you gave/sold your garters too haven't told you about them but don't lose hope try contacting them if that's too much of a problem for you :)

Your garters seem very friendly and beautiful :)

[Stefan-A]

I can understand why you would be upset or torn that the people you gave/sold your garters too haven't told you about them
Well, it's not that I would be "upset or torn", I didn't expect them to stay in touch in the first place and I didn't ask them to. It's more about curiosity.

However, I have now heard from one of the people who bought one from me and seen pictures and apparently it's doing well and its coloration hasn't changed significantly.



Your garters seem very friendly and beautiful :)
Thank you.

[Stefan-A]

Mom, dad and son look very nice. I still find it a pitty that they loose their black face, but seeing it slowly fading away is also fun :)
Thanks.

I've seen pictures of the mom as a baby (unless Daniel used a picture of a different clutch in his ad) and it did have a black head. When I got the snakes a couple of months later, they had the same head colour as they do now. The dad and the son both still have black heads and the black isn't showing any signs of decreasing so far. Is it something that will take years, or should it already be noticable? The black on the son's head did decrease a little during the first couple of months after it was born.

[Stefan-A]

Oh and my male and my big female mated on the 23rd. They were hooked up for about four and a half hours (last year's mating with a different female lasted exactly as long) and spent roughly half of that time in the water dish, which is something the mom's breeder told me her parents had done.

Anyway, I filmed about 65 minutes worth of footage from that event. I'll be uploading a 10 minute clip of it some time after the 11th.

So, in 60-120 days, I hope to have an extra 10-12 mouths to feed.

[ConcinusMan]

Oh boy I can't wait. Snakey porn! (sorry, couldn't resist saying that)

[Stefan-A]

The weekly update on the preggo:

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes10/preggostats-feb14-2010.jpg

Weight in grams as a function of time.

[Stefan-A]

Here's the latest development:

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes10/preggostats-feb21-2010.jpg

What's wrong with that curve? ;)

[gregmonsta]

She's hit the plateau :D getting ready for the baby explosion.

[Odie]

[QUOTE=ConcinnusMan;123265] Oh boy I can't wait. Snakey porn! [QUOTE]
That's Snake pornographic material 2U :D:o:rolleyes:;);)

[gregmonsta]

Just wondering ... has she stopped eating yet? :rolleyes: ... Sky stopped eating 2 weeks ago now (when she hit the magic 420g). She just shed today and is 406g (which is still 60g up on her maximum weight last year).

[Stefan-A]

Just wondering ... has she stopped eating yet? :rolleyes: ... Sky stopped eating 2 weeks ago now (when she hit the magic 420g). She just shed today and is 406g (which is still 60g up on her maximum weight last year).
Not completely, but she's down to a fraction of what she normally eats.

edit: magic 420... I think I just got that joke. ;)

[gregmonsta]

Not completely, but she's down to a fraction of what she normally eats.

edit: magic 420... I think I just got that joke. ;)

Only magic if it comes to something :rolleyes: .... my snake could still just be a fatty :eek:

[Stefan-A]

Only magic if it comes to something :rolleyes: .... my snake could still just be a fatty :eek:
You don't believe that any more than I do. :D

This one is on day 62. Her sister gave birth on day 74 last year.

[gregmonsta]

You don't believe that any more than I do. :D

This one is on day 62. Her sister gave birth on day 74 last year.

Too true :D I'm a sucker for that girl lol. I think it's about 58days since I saw courtship behaviour. It's all a bit too exciting.

[Stefan-A]

Too true :D I'm a sucker for that girl lol. I think it's about 58days since I saw courtship behaviour. It's all a bit too exciting.
First time? :D

[gregmonsta]

First time? :D

:rolleyes: how can you tell? :D

[Stefan-A]

:rolleyes: how can you tell? :D
Well, things tend to be too exciting the first time. :D

[Stefan-A]

The weekly update:

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes10/preggostats-feb28-2010.jpg

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes10/vagrans-feb22-2010-1.jpg

[gregmonsta]

She looks happy :D

[Stefan-A]

She looks happy :D
Aw, she's a real puppy dog. Never had a bad temper.

[drache]

she's beautiful

[guidofatherof5]

She's looks like a very nice snake indeed.

[MasSalvaje]

Stefan do you know what geographic area your stock originated from? I am just curious because of the vast variation in color the vagrans show. I go to three four different sites a year that have a very heavy vagrans population and all four are unique in color/pattern and average adult female size. All of the males seem to be in the same average range but the females vary quite a bit.

Beautiful girl by the way!

-Thomas

[Stefan-A]

Stefan do you know what geographic area your stock originated from? I am just curious because of the vast variation in color the vagrans show. I go to three four different sites a year that have a very heavy vagrans population and all four are unique in color/pattern and average adult female size. All of the males seem to be in the same average range but the females vary quite a bit.

Beautiful girl by the way!

-Thomas
Absolutely no idea. The breeder said one of its parents came from Scott Felzer and the other is wildcaught. It differs in pattern from its sister, which I've noticed is quite similar to wandering garters I've seen in pictures from
South Saskatchewan River, Alberta. It's also a snail refuser.

[MasSalvaje]

Absolutely no idea. The breeder said one of its parents came from Scott Felzer and the other is wildcaught. It differs in pattern from its sister, which I've noticed is quite similar to wandering garters I've seen in pictures from
South Saskatchewan River, Alberta. It's also a snail refuser.

What about worms? I have yet to have any of mine take any worms.

-Thomas

[Stefan-A]

What about worms? I have yet to have any of mine take any worms.
Haven't tried worms in years, but last time I did, it refused them, too.

The male I have takes both worms and slugs without hesitation.

[Stefan-A]

Well, since Greg is doing it, I might as well do it, too :D
Anybody want to guess how long the pregnancy will be (in days, mating occurred on day 1) and how big the clutch (total live + stillborn + slugs + deformed) will be?

[gregmonsta]

I'm going to say day 78 .... 13 (lucky for some) healthy squiggles :D

[guidofatherof5]

93 days and 19 scrubs:)

[ConcinusMan]

Well, things tend to be too exciting the first time.

For whom? The snakes or the owner of the snakes?



Oh boy I can't wait. Snakey porn!
That's Snake pornographic material 2U

We could make it "right" and call it National pornogra... I mean, "National Geographic" or "Discovery Channel" material.



Well, since Greg is doing it, I might as well do it, too :D
Anybody want to guess how long the pregnancy will be (in days, mating occurred on day 1) and how big the clutch (total live + stillborn + slugs + deformed) will be?

You're kidding, right? # of fertilized eggs, temperature, [insert other factors here] oh wait. You did say "guess". That's all it is. You know, it just occurred to me. I never had a single slug with any garters over 20 years. A few stillborns and a few deformed (kinked) others that died shortly after birth, but no slugs. All yolks were attached to a formed neonate, dead or alive.

[Stefan-A]

For whom? The snakes or the owner of the snakes?
What does the context suggest?

[ConcinusMan]

Just thought I would offer another suggestion. ;)

[ssssnakeluvr]

Absolutely no idea. The breeder said one of its parents came from Scott Felzer and the other is wildcaught. It differs in pattern from its sister, which I've noticed is quite similar to wandering garters I've seen in pictures from
South Saskatchewan River, Alberta. It's also a snail refuser.
Some of Scott's stock is from Utah...I sent him an adult pair years ago.
my Idaho wandering that I had when growing up ate tons of nighcrawlers!

[ConcinusMan]

As many slugs (and garters) as there are around here, I could never get a garter to eat a slug. Well, one time an ordinoides tried it. It ended in disaster. I thought she was going to suffocate on the slime and it took days before her "lips" would close properly.

[Snaky]

I will be guessing 94 and 15:)

[Stefan-A]

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes10/preggostats-mar08-2010.jpg



First one to congratulate me, gets banned. Maybe.

Well, the pregnancy lasted somewhere between 73 and 76 days. Who wants to guess what exactly I got out of the whole deal?

[gregmonsta]

Oh bugger, did you get slugged? :confused: .... The worlds largest garter poo :confused: (in which case I could congratulate).

[drache]

beats me, but apparently not snake babies

[Stefan-A]

What I got was 1 (one) live one, that I didn't take any photos of, plus these two:

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes10/fustercluck.jpg

No slugs, no deformed. These two might be heat shock victims, or more likely, crush victims.

As you can see from the graph, we have a decrease in weight of 29 grams, but only three offspring. Furthermore, the snake now weighs as much as it did a mere 5 weeks ago, halfway through its pregnancy.

My guess (and it is just a guess) is that I'll be seeing the remaining ones in a couple of days, after they've exited the mom a second time.

[Snaky]

That's a shame. Was mom the only one in the enclosure? I've never heard of the mother eating the babies till now, always another snake.

[Stefan-A]

That's a shame. Was mom the only one in the enclosure? I've never heard of the mother eating the babies till now, always another snake.
She was alone and I can't think of any other answer. The enclosure was sealed tight enough to keep these three inside. Almost 30 grams for only three babies is not plausible, imho.

[guidofatherof5]

Was there a large fluid discharge?

[Stefan-A]

Was there a large fluid discharge?
Almost no sign of it at all, but then again, it seemed like it had had time to dry up, meaning that they were born at least a day or two ago. I was away for 3 and a half total.

At the moment, I'm not entirely convinced that she's finished giving birth, she still looks wide, even if she's lost a disproportionate amount of weight.

[mustang]

ouch good luck with the rest of em ...

[guidofatherof5]

Very sorry to hear things are turning out this way. How's the one surviver doing?

[gregmonsta]

Fingers crossed there may be more to come. Unfortunate timing. I hope things work out ok for her too.

[Stefan-A]

Very sorry to hear things are turning out this way. How's the one surviver doing?
He (it's a "he" for now) is climbing up the walls. Gave him a bowl of fish, he decided it was a good place to soak. Didn't eat, as expected. Might end up keeping him as a souvenir. Tiny little bugger.

[MasSalvaje]

That sucks Stefan. Was she the only one you are expecting babies from this year?

-Thomas

[guidofatherof5]

Best of luck with him. Please keep us informed as to how the mom is doing. A photo of the surviver would be great.

[Stefan-A]

Best of luck with him. Please keep us informed as to how the mom is doing. A photo of the surviver would be great.
Maybe tomorrow. He's taking a bath at the moment. :rolleyes:

[Stefan-A]

That sucks Stefan. Was she the only one you are expecting babies from this year?

-Thomas
It's the only one, yes.

[Stefan-A]

Best of luck with him. Please keep us informed as to how the mom is doing. A photo of the surviver would be great.
I changed my mind. Here he is. Shot a couple of minutes worth of video, as well.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes10/solo-2010mar8.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

Looks like a keeper. Great looking little scrub.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

awwwwe Stefan, he's so cute! at least you've got one...! :o

[Stefan-A]

Thanks, guys and girls. :)

As a side note, that black head seems to be a dominant trait. Every baby so far has had them.

[drache]

pretty little guy
how's the mother doing?

[Stefan-A]

pretty little guy
how's the mother doing?
Still alive a couple of hours ago. ;)

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Thanks, guys and girls. :)

As a side note, that black head seems to be a dominant trait. Every baby so far has had them.
I think Don would know more about this but every baby wandering I have EVER seen was born with a black head. I think as they grow it gets lighter... because I used to always wonder why they ALL came out with black heads!

[Stefan-A]

I think Don would know more about this but every baby wandering I have EVER seen was born with a black head. I think as they grow it gets lighter... because I used to always wonder why they ALL came out with black heads!
When I got the parents, they weren't much bigger than this, and they did not have black heads. The male I got did have a black head and still does. So does the one I kept last year and at least one of its siblings.

[ssssnakeluvr]

probably half the babies I have seen around here have the black heads...some stay that way, others kinda fade away.

[bkhuff1s]

Sorry to hear about his, I hope my Puget's don't do this to me, I've had them for about a year and a half at this point...

[jitami]

Sorry the outcome wasn't better, Stefan, but that one little guy is a real cutie :)

[ConcinusMan]

Judging from the picture it seems as though the dead haven't been dead for very long. Any stillborns I have got in the past were almost always born first, but fully developed and normal looking. As if the sac broke early and they suffocated inside the mother. Any theories why this happens? Why many still borns look like they died mere hours from birth?

As for the total number, that's weird. Unless she's holding more and they are dead too.

[Stefan-A]

Judging from the picture it seems as though the dead haven't been dead for very long. Any stillborns I have got in the past were almost always born first, but fully developed and normal looking. As if the sac broke early and they suffocated inside the mother. Any theories why this happens? Why many still borns look like they died mere hours from birth?

As for the total number, that's weird. Unless she's holding more and they are dead too.
Those two were lying on top of the heat pad, underneath the paper towels in the birthing enclosure. Hence the speculation that they might have been killed by crushing and/or heat shock.

Not a bloody clue as to what the cause might be.

[Stefan-A]

Again, the weekly update.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes10/preggostats-mar14-2010.jpg

The weight is almost back to normal, I'd say she's finished now.

My prediction seems to hold, to some extent. Found the rear half of a dead, possibly partially digested baby today and the front half underneath the paper towels.

My apartment smells rotten.

Presumably expelled at separate occasions, from which end I do not dare to speculate. Recorded the finding of the carcass. The footage might end up on YouTube at some point if I ever get everything edited.

[gregmonsta]

Bad momma, bad! :eek: I hope you've given her a good telling off!

[ConcinusMan]

Not necessarily eaten. I've had WC gravid females "give birth" to just mushy decomposing parts of young. I could even speculate that perhaps one rotting dead inside can spoil the rest. Too bad about the crushing incindent, if that's what really happened. Maybe next time more thought can be applied to the birthing quarters. When I knew the time was near, I removed EVERYTHING from the quarters besides an inch or two of clean substrate and the mother and she was given 3 square feet of space. Only overhead heat was provided in a corner. I did that because I did experience some earlier losses due to newborns getting under layers of paper or other objects such as water dishes. They are sticky. They get stuck and/or smashed. The room was usually around 80 degrees but under the heat was around 90. Mother tended to stay away from the light, while the active young congregated under the light. Of course, nothing beats diligent supervision by the owner to intervene in case young are in danger. As soon as a few newborns were actively crawling around, I separated them from the mother. She was so big and heavy. They were so tiny and delicate.

Seriously stefan, it looks like those babies were dead a few days before they came out. I really don't think she ate them. but of course this is just speculation. First birthing experience I was shocked to find another snake eating babies but he went for the afterbirth with as much enthusiasm. I think that's what he was after.

When mom was finished, she partook of the afterbirth and a few stillborns that looked fresh, not rotten. I saw no harm in letting her do so.

[Stefan-A]

Seriously stefan, it looks like those babies were dead a few days before they came out.
No, I'd say they were dead for a couple of days before I found them. A couple of days on the heat pad does wonders.

[ConcinusMan]

Point taken

[Stefan-A]

Well, she just squeezed out another rear half of a baby. Something strange is definitely going on here.

[guidofatherof5]

Sounds like what my Speckle did. Almost a month after giving birth she was still passing stillborns. They came out in pieces, but didn't smell like they were putrid. It had me very worried.
She seems fine now and even mated a couple weeks ago. She's eating like a pig and really putting on the weight.
Keep us informed and best of luck with her.

[Stefan-A]

This one is acting completely normal, eating and all.

[ConcinusMan]

Well, she just squeezed out another rear half of a baby. Something strange is definitely going on here.

OK, why is that strange? she could be passing dead babies for a week or two. Seen it before. The thing is, the mother is at risk. She could become septic and die. Are they mushy and smell like death? RED FLAG.

[guidofatherof5]

Well, she just squeezed out another rear half of a baby. Something strange is definitely going on here.


OK, why is that strange? she could be passing dead babies for a week or two. Seen it before. The thing is, the mother is at risk. She could become septic and die. Are they mushy and smell like death? RED FLAG.


I agree with Stefan, something strange is a foot. Up until my Speckle did it late last year, I've never had a female pass babies, stillborns or slugs more than a day or so from delivery. Speckle was passing stillborns over a month past delivery.
There is much to be concerned about.

[ConcinusMan]

Let me rephrase that. I'll say again RED FLAG. It's just not strange to me to see them passing parts this late in the game but it's definitely NOT GOOD. There is a high risk of losing that mother, the longer those parts stay in there. In fact, part of her swelling, or bloated look may have been due to decomposing neonates inside her. It's a deadly situation and can kill quicker than a badly impacted snake with decomposing food inside her.

If I could afford it and did not want to lose her, I'd get her to a vet asap and never breed her again.

[ConcinusMan]

If it doesn't smell really bad and she seems to be in good spirits, eating, and that continues, then she'll probably be OK but don't be surprised if parts continue to come out for some time.

[Stefan-A]

I agree with the red flag and I'm way ahead of you with the vet thing. My first choice was on maternity leave and my second choice gave the following advice: Wait and see how things develop.

Other advice:
- Make sure the environmental conditions are okay. (check)
- Make sure she's kept in sanitary conditions. (check)
- Increase temp to increase metabolism. (check)
- Increase humidity. (check)
- Bathe.
- Gently massage the belly.

"If things get worse, bring her in and we'll put her on antibiotics."



Money is not an issue.

[gregmonsta]

Fingers crossed for her mate.

[Stefan-A]

Thanks.

[ConcinusMan]

I sincerely hope it doesn't turn ugly Stefan. Neither you nor her deserve that. I have high hopes that she'll pass everything and be fine.

If she's feeling pretty strong, sometimes a forced swim in a tub for a few seconds a day helps to get that stuff moving along.

[jitami]

Stefan, I'd call back and ask if she could be started on antibiotics anyway. By the time "things get worse" she may not have enough time for the antibiotics to do their thing. Good luck... will be thinking of you and your girl...

[ConcinusMan]

That's what I was thinking. By the time you know it, it's too late.

[jitami]

How's the girl doing, Stefan?