Abscess?

[anji1971]

So my sister was over this afternoon, and I was showing her the snakes, and when I picked up Stitch, the little Dekay's, I noticed a rather good sized lump right beneath his vent opening.
Now I must confess I've been less than attentive to the poor guy this past week, what with the Butler's drama and all, but I did handle him about a week ago, and there was nothing wrong then.
I turned him over and took a close look, and there seemed to be a 'crusty' spot right at the vent. I squeezed the lump gently and something I'm guessing is pus came out -- it looked like pus and smelled faintly of snake-musk.
He didn't seem to be in distress, so I squeezed gently again, and more came out. I kept doing this until a whole mess of the stuff had drained, and what came out was beginning to be tinged with blood. The lump is noticeably smaller now, but he was bleeding a bit.
I smothered his little tail end in antibiotic ointment, and put him back home to rest a bit.
Now, I need to know what else I should do! Should I try soaking him? Is there any other topical treatment I can use?
I'm going to empty his tank after dinner and replace the aspen with paper towel, so I can see if he is bleeding or anything else is oozing out. It's also his feeding day, so I'm going to check to make sure he's pooping properly as well, although there was fecal matter in the tank from last feeding, so I don't think he's got any sort of blockage.
Any more input would be greatly appreciated................shutting up now!!:D

[adamanteus]

Anji, this can happen sometimes if conditions are a little too dry. Is that possible? Uric crystals can dry out and form almost a 'scab' around the vent. A good long, slightly warm soak should sort Stitch out.

[anji1971]

You know, James,
dryness could be a problem. His last two sheds weren't complete, and I had to soak the last 10-12cm of skin off him.
Although it's the big ugly oozing lump I'm most concerned with. Can dryness cause that too?

[adamanteus]

I'd have to see a photo, Anji. But the 'crustiness' of the uric crystals could cause sores, these could turn a little bit nasty I guess.

[anji1971]

I'm going to post a photo as soon as I've fed the kids their dinner. I'm wondering if it's not more than just an abscess -- the pus seems to be coming from inside him, not just a surface thing, and the swelling is all around the perimeter of his body in that spot. Well at least it was until I squeezed the daylights out of it!
I'll try to get some decent visual aids up as soon as possible.

[anji1971]

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/april24-2008_114.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/april24-2008_116.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/april24-2008_112.jpg
The bulge seems to be more prominent on the one side. It's gone down some since I drained it, but I'm still a bit worried.........:(

[anji1971]

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/april24-2008_118.jpg
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/april24-2008_120.jpg

[adamanteus]

It does look to be infected, doesn't it?
I would continue the treatment you've started, keep a very close eye in him, and if it doesn't start to improve pretty quickly I would go to the vet.

[anji1971]

Considering the amount of gunk I squished out earlier, I'd definitely say it's infected! How often should I try to drain it? I don't want to hurt the poor guy, but I don't want this spreading to his bloodstream and killing him either. Is there something I can add to a soak that will help as well as the ointment?

[adamanteus]

Probably twice a day is enough. I guess you could use povidine or similar, but you need to see rapid improvement or visit the vet.

[Stefan-A]

Reminds me of the problem my male parietalis had, minus the abscess.

Looked like this after the snake shed:

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/post-shed-e11.jpg

[anji1971]

Thanks for the tip! I hope I can find a herp vet here.........I'll call the Exotic Pet store, they should know who.
My husband actually quite likes Stitch, I hope nothing happens to him.:(

[anji1971]

Reminds me of the problem my male parietalis had, minus the abscess.

Looked like this after the snake shed:

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/post-shed-e11.jpg

Did it just heal up on it's own? Do you know what caused it in the first place.....could it have to do with the last couple of bad sheds?

[Stefan-A]

Did it just heal up on it's own? Do you know what caused it in the first place.....could it have to do with the last couple of bad sheds?
Nope, didn't heal. He died.

The uric crystals would literally plug the snake's cloaca from the outside and it was a symptom of dehydration, caused by some form of renal failure. I'm saying 'some form', because the results I got back from the necropsy were about as vague, but I assume that it was at least chronic. More about that in the thread 'Dingleberry'.

[anji1971]

Well, that's not the most encouraging news.:( Sorry about your snake -- it's been quite a while since I read that thread, so I'd forgotten the exact details.
I'll talk to my husband when he gets home from work about the possibility of a vet visit. Hopefully it won't be too expensive for us.

[Stefan-A]

Thinking back, a vet visit would have been cheaper than the necropsy and a "replacement". Losing the snake held me and my breeding plans back about 3 years.

[drache]

for whatever it's worth
not that it matters in terms of treatment now, but . . .
Sean told me this thing today, that may have some relevance as a causative factor, particularly since someone mentioned shedding issues
he was telling me this in response to a breeding question and I don't remember quite whether he said that it affects only male snakes
he said that sometimes shed can be retained internally in the vent area and build up a plug that will prevent a male from mating successfully
so perhaps something like that could also be at the root of an abscess

[Zephyr]

I'm sure others have stressed this, but keep the little guy damp-er than usual and makes sure he's hydrated.

[anji1971]

Rhea, that is rather interesting. His two messed up sheds both tore off near that area, so it's a viable possibility that it's a cause.

I soaked him really good tonight, and squeezed a whole 'nother pile of crap out of there. This time most of it was pus mixed with blood, but the swelling isn't quite so ominous looking as it was earlier. I just keep hoping I'm not hurting him by doing that.
Kyle, how exactly do I keep him moister than usual? He's not one to soak on his own, and I'm not really sure how to raise the humidity level in his tank. You'd think that our humid climate would be enough..........

[Zephyr]

Add a bit of warm, moist peat or spanish moss and mist the tank with warm water. My main concern would be keeping the snake in a sterile environment, so maybe move him to paper toweling for the night.

[anji1971]

I already did switch him to paper towels. ;)
I don't have any type of moss or peat, but I do have that coconut fibre stuff that expands when wet. Would a bit of that under one of his hides work?

[Zephyr]

OR, better yet, warm, moist paper towel. Keep things as sterile as possible.

[anji1971]

Right. So if I put a folded square of moist paper towel over where the heat pad is, then it should help?
Sorry, I'm full of questions, but this is the first time I've ever had a real issue with my snakes, aside from the first one that led me to this forum to begin with!

[Zephyr]

Right. So if I put a folded square of moist paper towel over where the heat pad is, then it should help?
Sorry, I'm full of questions, but this is the first time I've ever had a real issue with my snakes, aside from the first one that led me to this forum to begin with!Yes. Note, I'm no expert on snake vet care, but I have talked to a qualified veterinary professional recently (Yesterday) about multiple aspects of snake care, and when snakes bleed it's good to sanitize the wound, apply antibiotic, and keep the snake very warm as well as moist.

[anji1971]

Well, it's one more piece of advice I didn't know about, so it's much appreciated!
I'm going to go add that wet towel to his tank right now!:)

[Zephyr]

Make sure you keep the ambient air temperature up and don't feed him.

[drache]

yeah
I was going to say that also
keep the temps up

[Zephyr]

Neosporin is recommended for injuries in the scab stage. Vets use it all the time, that and this other form that escapes me at the moment. x.x

[anji1971]

I'm glad the feeding was mentioned, as I was just wondering whether or not to feed him tonight! How long should I wait?

[Zephyr]

As long as he doesn't begin to lose weight, you'll want to wait until any signs of infection are gone, or until the wound begins to heal.

[anji1971]

I called the herp vet that was recommended by the exotic pet store, and they said it's $63.00 for an exam. That's not including any meds he might need. I really hope I can help this go away without a vet...........it's a little less swollen today, but I still get a fair amount of crud out when I drain it.

[adamanteus]

I sometimes wonder where they get their prices from.... think of a number...now double it!

We need a vet to join our forum!:rolleyes:

[anji1971]

I'm seriously thinking of dipping his slugs in penicillin powder and taking my chances. :D

Actually, I'm a little worried because the area right above his vent(about 2cm long ) is looking rather wrinkly and 'deflated'. I haven't been squeezing him there, so I don't know what that's all about.
And the damned snake won't go anywhere near the damp hide I've made him........so much for moisture and warmth. How do you convince a snake to go where you want him to???

[adamanteus]

I'm seriously thinking of dipping his slugs in penicillin powder and taking my chances.

I've done that in the past....sometimes it works.
I don't know what it is with some animals, they just seem determined to self destruct. Just keep a close eye on him, do what you think is best, confer with us and keep your fingers crossed! Cleanliness is SO important right now.

[anji1971]

You know, I'm really hoping this guy is one who'll fight. He's still really active, and I'm sure if I did feed him he'd scarf down everything in sight. It doesn't seem like he's letting any of this get him down. So I may just try the antibiotic thing, and keep hoping.
I don't really know what else to do. Sadly, I'm not in a position to spend a couple hundred dollars on him, as much as I love the little critter. :(

[adamanteus]

Anji, just try it. I know that vet prices can be impossible to meet when you live in 'the real world'. And let's be honest... a lot of vets have less idea about snake remedies than we do!

[anji1971]

That's the other concern.
If I spend the money, can the vet really guarantee he'll fix him?
Not likely.;)

[drache]

I've tried to get my old vet to check out this forum, since he's really into garters, but the guy doesn't spend enough time on the internet to check his email regularly

keeping my fingers crossed for your little guy
if you have access to Nolvasan, you could add some to his soak water

[Zephyr]

My advice as a vet in training is not to offer him ANY food, medicated or not. I believed it's around 90-95% of the snake's immune system is in it's gut, and when you add food it takes the body's focus off the infection and onto digestion. But just make sure everything's sterile as possible, maybe even change the toweling every day if he's calm enough.

[charles parenteau]

Sadly I have to say that my beautiful flame female died from a similar infection many of my friend garter died the same 2 sanfrancisco died with huge cloaca infection...

[anji1971]

My advice as a vet in training is not to offer him ANY food, medicated or not. I believed it's around 90-95% of the snake's immune system is in it's gut, and when you add food it takes the body's focus off the infection and onto digestion. But just make sure everything's sterile as possible, maybe even change the toweling every day if he's calm enough.

So what else can I do if I can't afford the vet, and the Polysporin and soaking only does so much?
I did notice a LOT less pus draining tonight, so I am hoping for the best!

[Zephyr]

Well, keep things sterile. Keep the humidity and temps constant. And go get some sleep, you're gonna kill yourself if you keep worrying. :P

**Edit- remember to keep fluids available! Maybe buy some electrolyte fluid from the local pharmacy? Not the flavored stuff, but the pure electrolyte solution.

[anji1971]

Today, Stitch looks a lot better. The swelling has gone down about 2/3 from what it was, but he does seem a little sluggish. I think it's just from stress and exhaustion though, because when I touch him he moves pretty well. I'm going to just let him rest today, and not subject him to the soaking and squeezing!

[Snake lover 3-25]

awww... too bad he got sick but i'm glad his swelling has gone down... that should be a good sign right???:D i hope you both feel better!!!!!:D

[Zephyr]

Like I said, try soaking him in electrolyte solution or offering a bit of it mixed in with his normal water. That should help with his activity.

[Zephyr]

Alternatively, if you don't have any electrolyte solution on hand or can't buy any, watered-down Gatorade is suitable also.

[Lori P]

Anji, oh wow, I hadn't read this thread before. I really hope little Stitch pulls thru!!! You have certainly done everything possible for him. I wish I had some brilliant advice, but I don't... so just sending lots of healing, positive thoughts for the little guy!!!!

[anji1971]

Thanks, Lori. It's a bit of a guessing game when you're playing 'vet' but he's still here, so I'll keep trying!

@Kyle..........crap. I totally forgot about picking up the electrolyte stuff today. I'll get some tomorrow. But I did remember to take my kid to the doctor and get meds for her.........does that redeem me?:D

[Zephyr]

@Kyle..........crap. I totally forgot about picking up the electrolyte stuff today. I'll get some tomorrow. But I did remember to take my kid to the doctor and get meds for her.........does that redeem me?:D[/quote]
Only slightly. :P
Remember, Gatorade works too, just water it down. :P
BTW, I'm not a member of the dekay club. :P

[anji1971]

Update! Stitch is looking a bit better every day. His swelling is down about 90% now, but I still have to check, because the little hole I was draining it from scabs over, and I don't want it to fill back up. But he is improving, so I'll keep my fingers crossed!:)

[adamanteus]

My fingers are crossed too, Anji.

[enigma200316]

My fingers are crossed too, Anji.

me 3..................

[Zephyr]

Update! Stitch is looking a bit better every day. His swelling is down about 90% now, but I still have to check, because the little hole I was draining it from scabs over, and I don't want it to fill back up. But he is improving, so I'll keep my fingers crossed!:)Scabbing is good, but make sure that there is no pus on the exterior. If there is, wipe it off and apply 25% hydrogen peroxide 75% water solution to the area, then wipe it off and apply more neosporin.

[Lori P]

Go Stitch!!!!! :-)

[anji1971]

Scabbing is good, but make sure that there is no pus on the exterior. If there is, wipe it off and apply 25% hydrogen peroxide 75% water solution to the area, then wipe it off and apply more neosporin.

No pus on the outside.:)
I'm just worried that if the infection gets trapped in the abscess, it will grow again.

BTW, does anyone know if snake's absorb substances through their skin? I can't find anything about it on Google, and I'm just curious as to whether or not any of the antiobiotic ointment makes it's way into the abscess at all.

[EdgyExoticReptiles]

hope it heals well, sounds like ur doing the right thing

[Zephyr]

I would assume that through an open wound it would. However, it may just be effective at the site of treatment. I'll have to ask the vets around here.

[EdgyExoticReptiles]

1000th post yay!

[bulrush]

I personally have had abscesses just like this, where once most of the pus comes out, a little blood comes out too. For myself I drain it daily without pressing too hard. It should heal by itself over time. It is generally a staph infection and reptiles and amphibs carry relatively larger amounts of staph than a human.

They are basically a skin infection and can be surprising large, and go deep into the skin. I once squeezed one too hard and it burst under the skin. I then had to go to the ER to have it lanced. It was on the side of my chest. When they were done cutting and draining they cut completely through all layers of skin. What was left was a hole so big I could drop a nickel through it without touching the sides of the hole, and I could see the muscles on my ribs!

(I thought it was neat, because I like medical stuff.)

[bulrush]

As far as humidifying the cage, put a natural sponge (not man made) in a pet dish filled with water. The sponge will absorb water and evaporate it into the cage. Keep a solid lid on the cage, like plastic, not mesh, to trap the humidity.

[anji1971]

Aaarrgghh!!!:mad:
I cannot get this last bit of swelling and infection to clear up!
The last little bit just keeps re-filling with pus every day, and I'm getting annoyed with it real fast. It hasn't bothered Stitch any, he's still busy and happy. But I'm running out of ideas............

[adamanteus]

Maybe Stitch will heal himself now, Anji.

[anji1971]

Let's hope so...........I gave his tank another super-sterilizing today, and I'm not going to put him back with substrate, and plants and stuff for a while yet. But if he's not better by the weekend, I'm resorting to the medicated slugs.

[Zephyr]

Let's hope so...........I gave his tank another super-sterilizing today, and I'm not going to put him back with substrate, and plants and stuff for a while yet. But if he's not better by the weekend, I'm resorting to the medicated slugs.I know it's hard to do, but you MUST NOT FEED HIM. His body will focus on the digestion and not the infection if you do. You need to drain the abscess, then dab it a few times with paper toweling *Tissue may leave particles,* then immediately dab neosporin as close to the drainage point or inside the drainage point. Inside will help a lot more.

[anji1971]

That's what I'm doing with the neosporin, but it still keeps filling up. Albeit, much more slowly than before.
But Kyle, you're killing me with this no food thing, ya know that???? I'm a mom. It goes against all my instincts!:D
I know you're probably right, but still..........AAAARRGGHH!!!!

[jeanette]

the guys on here are giving some great advice :)
try soaking and massaging the area in warm salty water it will help start drawing out infection . then dry the area thoroughly and put on neosporin- ive not had to try neosporin on my snakes but the peple on here swear by it and they have a lot of experience.
As for the warm salt water thing, i hate hospitals and treated myself with that method after i got a secondary infection after a nasty cut i got from some rusty metal. used the method on my dogs and my python.

[Zephyr]

the guys on here are giving some great advice :)
try soaking and massaging the area in warm salty water it will help start drawing out infection . then dry the area thoroughly and put on neosporin- ive not had to try neosporin on my snakes but the peple on here swear by it and they have a lot of experience.
As for the warm salt water thing, i hate hospitals and treated myself with that method after i got a secondary infection after a nasty cut i got from some rusty metal. used the method on my dogs and my python.Hmm... Table salt? I'm wondering if epsom salt would help with electrolytes, but I don't know if it's toxic or harmful to snakes. x.x

[anji1971]

Whenever he soaks he avoids putting his head in or drinking the water, so I can't see why epsom salt, or any salt for that matter, would do any great harm.
I just may try it! I don't know why I didn't think of it before..........salt is excellent for drawing out infection.

How long should I be soaking him anyway-- I've been doing 5 or 6 minutes. Is that enough?

[adamanteus]

Salt is good... it's a natural antiseptic. Don't know about Epsom Salt. Garlic salt would probably not be good either.:)

[anji1971]

Garlic salt............I'll try not to add that by mistake!:rolleyes:

[Stefan-A]

Salt is good... it's a natural antiseptic.
So is sugar and subsequently honey. :) Doesn't have the same drawbacks as salt either.

Actually, I think they're antibacterial, not antiseptic, but anyway..

[Lori P]

Sugar is good at drawing out swelling and edema... honey is good for infection... and actually, garlic is a natural antibiotic and I've used ground garlic topically on wounds even on the horses with success. Of course, they end up smelling like an italian kitchen... lol (Keeps the flies off them, too)

Hmm, so the garlic salt idea is not bad... lol!!!! Think how tasty he'll smell!!

I'd lean toward the eposom salts for their drawing power myself.

[anji1971]

Okay, so if I make him a soak full of salt, sugar, honey, and garlic, would that be overkill?:D:D

[Stefan-A]

No, that'd be 'marinade'.

[salzar]

No, that'd be 'marinade'.
__________________
haaaaa haaaa heeeee just to funny !!
I KNOW WHAT YOU WERE THINKING ABOUT THE TURTLE TOO.. BAD BAD.... michelle

[jeanette]

lol at marinade snake. poor thing.
either sea salt or table salt will work, sea salt is better as it hasnt been through so many factory processes, milling curing and such.
with the python i soaked him for 10 minutes twice a day, im not sure how long you would be ok soaking a garter for though as im pretty much inexperianced with garters and still learning, anyone help with that?

[anji1971]

He's even smaller than a garter, so I guess 5 minutes twice a day should do it. I started the salt water this afternoon.
I'll wait and see how it turns out. I feel like a broken record with that phrase lately.:rolleyes:

[count dewclaw]

He's even smaller than a garter, so I guess 5 minutes twice a day should do it. I started the salt water this afternoon.
I'll wait and see how it turns out. I feel like a broken record with that phrase lately.:rolleyes:

It isn't so much the size of the snake...you need to soak them long enough so that any sealing up of the abscess area is softened/opened to allow drainage. If 5 minutes seems to open things up that's good, if not soak for closer to 10 minutes. If you are soaking him twice a day, 5 minutes might be enough.

[charles parenteau]

At the begining it look like and abscess but its gland infection maybe its food...but one thing for sure all infected snake died... this sanfrancisco eat one day before i ended its suffering...in the freezer.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/trucs007.jpg (http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/trucs007.jpg)

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/trucs006.jpg

[anji1971]

Charles, I'm beginning to think you're right in this case.:( Today, after several days of what seemed like improvement, Stitch has become very lethargic, and almost completely unresponsive to touch. I'm afraid I am going to have to break down and admit defeat here. It doesn't look good.
I don't know if I have the emotional strength to just put him in the freezer though -- I'm still trying to talk myself into being able to do that.

[adamanteus]

Oh Anji. I hope you're wrong.

[anji1971]

I'd love nothing more than to be wrong, James. But he looks just like Deejay's mom did before she died. And if that's the case, in a few hours I won't have to worry about the freezer thing anymore. :(

[adamanteus]

Damn.....:(

[anji1971]

Damn.....:(

I'll second that! And add an extra. Damn.:(

[anji1971]

On a better note, Deejay seems to be perking up from her little ordeal. Or should I not say that lest some new disaster befalls me?

[adamanteus]

No more bad news, please!

[charles parenteau]

The real probleme is that it happen to me ,to deejay to my friends garter...and no one can explain about it ,i want to know whats the cause of this infection(abscess).damn maybe its food,habitat or everything else nobody know ...One thing for sure every year I caught as many as 1000 garter in wild and i never see this kinda infection on wild one.

I think its because of captive condition...The a real phenomena as many other.Im pissed off too ...

[anji1971]

Stitch was a wild caught snake, but not a garter. I haven't kept enough to make a comparison between wild and captive and the number of infections like this. It would be nice to know what caused it, too.

[Lori P]

Oh no, I hope hope hope he starts to improve Anji... I'm so sorry!!

[anji1971]

He looks a little more alert at the moment. What a funny little guy -- half dead in the morning and holding his head up this evening. I really don't know what to expect from him anymore. I'm just going to sit here and drink several bottles of Vex Hard Peach Raspberry Lemonade, and let the snake do what he will.:D

[anji1971]

Stitch is gone.
He held up his head for a few hours last night, looking around. I'm allowing myself to think he was saying good-bye. Then, around 10pm he started going into heavy convulsions. He passed on shortly after.:(
We buried him in the garden, among the tulips.

[charles parenteau]

So sorry Anji. :( Its sad for you .

[Lori P]

Oh Anji, I'm so sorry. ((Hugs)) I know how hard this is for you. I wish we had an answer as to what happened.

[anji1971]

Thanks Lori, and Charles.
I wish I just knew what started the infection, so it could be prevented. But things like that aren't always easy or even possible to pinpoint.

[Snake lover 3-25]

oh my SOOOO sorry.... :(:(:(:( feel better....

[adamanteus]

I'm so sorry, Anji. I wish we could have helped.:(

[drache]

oh Anji
I'm so sorry

[count dewclaw]

I'm sorry, Anji.

[Stefan-A]

Sorry about your loss, Anji. :(

[Zephyr]

So sorry Anji. At least he's not in pain any more.

[salzar]

me too very sorry for your loss, funny you just lost one I just found one,
same kind as stitch.

so sorry for ya!! bye
michelle

[anji1971]

Thank-you so much, everyone.
I really appreciate all the help that was offered and all the advice people gave me over the past couple of weeks. And all the condolences are wonderful now. I would have had a much harder time dealing with this alone.
This forum is the BEST!!

[adamanteus]

You're right Anji... when things turn to sh1t, this forum is the best! I know.
I'm so sorry we lost Stitch, you kept us all so well informed, we all felt we knew him.

[anji1971]

Kept you well informed, or drove you all nuts with constant posting??:D

[stonyloam]

Bye Stitch.:(

[jeanette]

im soooooo sorry for your loss, is this infection/abcess thing a common occurance in captive bred garters? you are right i think we would all like to know what the causes are to this.
R.I.P stitch

[enigma200316]

sorry for your loss Anji,you did what u could,and no its never a bother when someone is in need.................:)

[Spiritwolf]

Several years ago, when the cats presented me with snakes with abscessed puncture wounds, I would clean the wound out with peroxide and then pack it with Panalog, which I had on hand for some of them, or triple antibiotic ointment, which I had on hand another time. After a few days of cleaning and antibiotic applications, the snakes had healed fine and were able to be released back to the wild.