Need help Urgently

[Alternative]

Well, my snake has developed either some kind of growth right where his anus is or it is either his feces blocking the passage. Here are some pictures. I don't know exactly what it is, but it is starting to tear his skin. I thought it was feces that hardened because it is whitish and brownish, but I don't know. Can anyone help me?

http://i10.tinypic.com/2uf9541.jpg

[abcat1993]

Since I really don't know that much about these type of things, I would say either it's a girl and had a rough birth or it's got cancer.
But since I really don't know I'll just BUMP this up.

[Cazador]

How long has the "swelling" been like this? Could this be your snake's first litter, and is your snake particularly young (less than 2 years old)? It could be pregnant even if is doesn't currently have a mate, if it was wild caught or was previously with males (assuming it's a female).

If the snake has been in this situation for over a day, I'd suggest that the first thing to do would be to put the snake in warm (~90-95F), shallow water for 10 minutes. It should be shallow enough that the snake doesn't have to swim and isn't further stressed out. It may help relax the tissue and help in the passage of whatever this is. If you use the bathtub, be sure to clean and disinfect it with 5-10% bleach afterward (and before using it yourself).

It looks like the snake is trying to pass something (possibly babies or jelly beans). If you haven't changed the depth of your substrate lately, and if your substrate is a uniform depth across your entire tank, I doubt you're dealing with a fecolith even if you're using an under tank heater. The substrate depth looks good, and it doesn't look right.

Keep a close eye on the snake if you use the warm water treatment in case it delivers young. You could also put some Neosporin antibiotic on the torn skin to lubricate it and protect it from infection after it's "bath."
Rick

[dustyfeathers]

What did the vet say it was? I bet it's a prolapsed vent. It seriously needs to be seen by a medical professional. This condition is extremely painful but fixable if you get it in to a vet, who can put it back where it needs to be.

This often happens if a snake ingests a meal that is large, or is dehydrated and trying to digest a meal.

Good luck! Let us know what happens!



kim

[Cazador]

Wow! Interesting call, Kim. Now that you mention it, the swelling seems to be confined to the immediate area of the cloaca, rather than a larger area anterior to it (as would be expected with an obstruction).

It's good to have more members with knowledge of advanced care and treatment around. Does your knowledge come from experience, training, or both? Whatever the source, welcome to the forum.
Rick

[Alternative]

What did the vet say it was? I bet it's a prolapsed vent. It seriously needs to be seen by a medical professional. This condition is extremely painful but fixable if you get it in to a vet, who can put it back where it needs to be.

This often happens if a snake ingests a meal that is large, or is dehydrated and trying to digest a meal.

Good luck! Let us know what happens!



kim

WOW, thanks a lot. Yea, my vet is closed today, but I am going to go tomorrow and seek some help. I think that is exactly what it is because he was trying to urinate, but was coming out in slow streams. You really think the vet will be able to help him out?

Again, thanks for some actual help.

[Alternative]

Ok, I think I found out what it is.

Cloacaliths

Dehydration of captive snakes (especially if long-standing) may result in drying out of urinary excretions. When this occurs, uric acid "stones" tend to form within the cloaca ("cloacoliths"). Their presence in this location prevents expulsion of urinary waste and feces (constipation (http://www.ahc.umn.edu/rar/MNAALAS/Snakes.html#Constipation)), which creates serious illness. Dehydration is a sign of disease and not a disease in itself, so it becomes the veterinarian's task to determine the underlying problem that caused the dehydration. Cloacoliths can usually be manually expelled with patience and the help of mineral oil enemas. This procedure should only be attempted by an experienced veterinarian.

I will try and take my snake to the veternarian tomorrow. I just hope they can fix it because he is kind of a small snake.

[abcat1993]

That sounds DISGUSTING. Stones clogging his cloaca, eww.
But seriously I hope your snake's OK/okay

[dustyfeathers]

Wow! Interesting call, Kim. Now that you mention it, the swelling seems to be confined to the immediate area of the cloaca, rather than a larger area anterior to it (as would be expected with an obstruction).

It's good to have more members with knowledge of advanced care and treatment around. Does your knowledge come from experience, training, or both? Whatever the source, welcome to the forum.
Rick

Hello! And thanks for the nice welcome. I have 10 years of reptile experience. I tend to keep large snakes, but I do have alot of corn snakes as well. Just getting interested (possibly) in garters :rolleyes:

I was, at one time, the adoption chair for the Pacific NW Herpetological Society in Seattle. This gave me about 4 years of a fast track education that was hands on! Plus.........alot of gray hair. But we won't talk about those.....will we? :D Between the parrots and the reptiles, I'd estimate we spent about $30,000 in 10 years time, so hopefully I picked up a little knowledge from spending 1/2 my time at the vets office with new arrivals!

I have kept everything. Literally. Even garters. We moved 1000 animals thru the adoption committee in 4 years, and the spectrum of animals was huge!

If I can be of any assistance to you, just let me know. I look forward to reading your forum, it's really well done!


kim

[Cazador]

Hope to hear from you often and to entice you into a few garters of your own ;). You seem like an excellent resource.

[dustyfeathers]

Is there an update with your snake? You mentioned you were taking him to the vet, how did that go?

I hope all is well......

[Alternative]

Is there an update with your snake? You mentioned you were taking him to the vet, how did that go?

I hope all is well......

No, all is not well. Well, I took him to the vet in a standard plastic cage from petsmart, and when I get there, she does a few things. First, she puts him in a bowl of water to help losen up the urinate, and then puts some kind of oitment/jelatine like substance on his problem spot. She uses a cuetip and manages to get some of the urinate out and clear the spot. Then, she gives him an enema using another kind of substance(forgot the name, but a kind of jelly) and he just sits there for a while opening his mouth trying to digest it.

Then, she tries to get some of the urinate out of him by slowly pushing it out, and manages to get a huge chunk out and clears the problem spot.

Well, he sits there opening his mouth and licking his lips(in a way) and tries to get down the stuff. So after she finishes, I take him home and about half way to my house, he rolls over in his pastic cage. I panic and try to get him to stay on his side. Well, I manage to keep him up until I get home and then put him on a counter because I am afraid that he would turn over in his cage because he isn't moving, just opening his mouth.

Well, I stayed with him for another few hours and used a small object to keep his mouth open because the person at the vet said that as long as he keeps his mouth open and head up, he is fine. Well, he didn't make it through the night.

I am not sure if it was the shock of being in the car(though I had his cage on my lap) or being around people or just being dehydrated(Vet said he was), or old age, but he didn't make it.

I only had 15 more days too before I would of had him for 10 years.

[Sid]

Sorry to hear you lost him.:(

Sid

[Elliot]

10 years? wow sorry about your snake

[abcat1993]

That sucks

[snakeman]

once they get blocked up like that they die fast.Usually by the time you notice it it's too late.I had a few of my juvi's die like that and a adult male.

[GarterGuy]

Sorry to hear that you lost you snake. :(

[Cazador]

What rotten news! If it's any consolation, 10 years is about the average life expectancy of a well cared for garter snake. If you didn't get him as a baby, then he beat the odds. It always sucks to lose a loved one, though, even if that loved one is a snake:(. Hopefully, you've helped someone else through your experience, though. I know your story has made me a little bit wiser. I just wish it had a happy ending. Best regards,
Rick

[Snaky]

It's a pitty to hear, sorry for the loss.

[Alternative]

What rotten news! If it's any consolation, 10 years is about the average life expectancy of a well cared for garter snake. If you didn't get him as a baby, then he beat the odds. It always sucks to lose a loved one, though, even if that loved one is a snake:(. Hopefully, you've helped someone else through your experience, though. I know your story has made me a little bit wiser. I just wish it had a happy ending. Best regards,
Rick

Yea, thanks everyone.

And what kind of bugged me was the Vet said that I should of had a UV Light for my snake, but I never had one and he did fine. He was always just next to my window and I would open the blinds to give him light.

[Cazador]

I know the link between UV light and Vit B1 production, but I have no idea how UV light and cloacolith formation are linked? Can anyone help make the connection? Since UV light can't penetrate glass, anyway, I don't know what the vet is saying.

I'm sure that the "average" life expectancy has a lot to do with husbandry, and the individual snake's ability to acclimate. I can tell you this for certain, though, the vast majority of wild snakes die before seeing their first birthday. They produce a lot of offspring, but provide little, if any, parental care (it varies by species). I've read online sources that have claimed the "average" life expectancy to be about 10 years for well cared for snakes, but I doubt this was a particularily comprehensive survey. Another book I was just reviewing claimed the life expectancy for captive garters to be between 5 and 12 years. The rare captive garter snake has reportedly lived 18 years, or was it 20 years? It was one of the two. Again, your snake seems to have beat the odds and lived a long life. Despite the vet's comment, they just don't live forever. You were lucky, skilled, or both to have kept your snake for so long.
Rick

Can anyone please clarify the connection between UV light and cloacoliths? I can sure explain the connection between rough handling, stress, mineralocorticoid/glucocorticoid release, and death.

[Alternative]

I know the link between UV light and Vit B1 production, but I have no idea how UV light and cloacolith formation are linked? Can anyone help make the connection? Since UV light can't penetrate glass, anyway, I don't know what the vet is saying.

I'm sure that the "average" life expectancy has a lot to do with husbandry, and the individual snake's ability to acclimate. I can tell you this for certain, though, the vast majority of wild snakes die before seeing their first birthday. They produce a lot of offspring, but provide little, if any, parental care (it varies by species). I've read online sources that have claimed the "average" life expectancy to be about 10 years for well cared for snakes, but I doubt this was a particularily comprehensive survey. Another book I was just reviewing claimed the life expectancy for captive garters to be between 5 and 12 years. The rare captive garter snake has reportedly lived 18 years, or was it 20 years? It was one of the two. Again, your snake seems to have beat the odds and lived a long life. Despite the vet's comment, they just don't live forever. You were lucky, skilled, or both to have kept your snake for so long.
Rick

Can anyone please clarify the connection between UV light and cloacoliths? I can sure explain the connection between rough handling, stress, mineralocorticoid/glucocorticoid release, and death.

No, she didn't say they were connected, but she said she was supprised that my snake lived as long as he did without a UV Light.

I never had a UV light, and when I told here this, she was supprised. But he was one tough snake to the end.

[GarterGuy]

It really sounds like the vet is mistaking the care of basking lizards like iguanas and bearded dragons with the care of snakes. I've had snakes for over 20yrs. now (even have one that just celebrated her 15th year, this summer) and none of them have exposure to high enough levels of UVA or UVB to really affect anything in their health. I think for snakes, like garters that are day active, exposure to full spectrum lighting is beneficial, pyschologically for them, but people have been keeping and breeding snakes for years with out the benefits of UV lighting. Most of your breeders of snakes use rack type systems for housing snakes in "tubs" that are not lit at all except for just room light.

[Cazador]

Hmmm, I had the same thought as Roy. The literature I've read (written by snake-specialist veterinarians and others) says that unlike basking lizards, garters don't need UV lighting, particularily if they're supplemented with Vit B. I use full spectrum lights and IR heat bulbs, but my lights shine through the side of the glass or plastic, meaning the snakes aren't receiving the UV wavelengths.
Rick

[Stefan-A]

UVA should penetrate glass, even if the shorter UVB and UVC won't.

[ssssnakeluvr]

As far as I know, snakes do not need UVB light...lizards and turtles do. I have raised many snakes over the years and they have lived to decent ages without the light.....

[Snaky]

I agree with all the rest. Although you can always give it to them, it wouldn't hurt, but it's not needed. It's needed with lizards, turtles, ...

[Alternative]

Hmmm, I had the same thought as Roy. The literature I've read (written by snake-specialist veterinarians and others) says that unlike basking lizards, garters don't need UV lighting, particularily if they're supplemented with Vit B. I use full spectrum lights and IR heat bulbs, but my lights shine through the side of the glass or plastic, meaning the snakes aren't receiving the UV wavelengths.
Rick

Yea, she was saying that UV light doesn't penetrate glass, but I don't know. My snake would always use to lay by the sun coming through the window and get some sun. Also, is Vitamin B in fish as I hear? That is probably a reason why he lived as long as he did. His diet was fish and occasionally green tree frogs.

[Snaky]

There was a rather big talk about vitamin B(1) in this thread, starting from page 4:
thread (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/husbandry/279-first-shed.html)
I would suggest reading it, it's very interesting to know. Because some fish contain vitamine B1, but other contain an enzyme that destroys vitamine B1 actively.

[Thamnophis]

Alternative, your snakes lays in the sun because the sunlight is much intenser than the light of the lamp.
That is the reason, not the UV.


By the way, Uv light has nothing to do with vitamin B.

UV light has connections with vitamin D3.

[Cazador]

Oops. You're completely right. All of the vitamin B talk, recently had me in a particular mindset. How embarrasing :o.
Rick

[Thamnophis]

Oops. You're completely right. All of the vitamin B talk, recently had me in a particular mindset. How embarrasing :o.
Rick


Nobody is perfect :D

[abcat1993]

Except for me of course.

[Thamnophis]

Except for me of course.

:D Saw that one coming...

[suzoo]

Alternative,
How is your snake? Did you find out what was wrong?

[abcat1993]

Except for me of course.
I figured that it was one of those things where it's a rush to be the first person to say it

[Alternative]

Alternative,
How is your snake? Did you find out what was wrong?

Read back to some of the prior pages.

It was Cloacaliths.

[suzoo]

Read back to some of the prior pages.

It was Cloacaliths.

Alternative, I am SO terribly sorry for your loss!!! And apoligize, as you're right, I seemed to manage to skip a couple of important pages!

[adamanteus]

I know this is a very old thread, but it's probably worth reviving anyway, just to keep such dangers in mind. (It's worth reading back through the whole thread, if you don't already know it).

I just read through the whole thread, and it seems to me that a contributing factor to the animals sudden demise could have been stress, brought on by the vets rough handling of the snake.

I have come across cloacaliths many times in the past, in many species (often brought on by long term inappropriate diet, but don't get me started on that one again!). Even when it's quite advanced (as in the photos at the start of the thread) it can be cleared by soaking and softening the uric crystals (as suggested by Rick very early in the thread). It seems to me that the vet tried to condense several days of gentle treatment into one brief visit. It must be extemely painful to pass these things...pain = stress! Patience, time, gentle massage and copious soaking can sort this!

All that said, it seems that the animal in question was pretty old anyway, and maybe couldn't have recovered from even the gentlest of treatment. But for future reference...Slow, steady and copious lubrication! Works for me! Well, not me, but certainly for reptiles I've had!

[abcat1993]

That would suck. I'm sorry, but a vet, whether or not they knew what was going to happen, killing your snake? But, I wouldn't blame them, as they have to know treatments for tons of different animals, most of them being dogs and cats I would assume.

[KITKAT]

I was working to save a Scarlet Tanager (bird) once that had a broken leg. I had it cast, and it was doing fine, but I felt the need to check with a vet to see whether I had set the leg correctly.

Well... the vet accidentally dropped the bird! It thumped onto the floor pretty hard, and died about an hour later.:(

I know it was an accident... the vet felt terrible about it.

[Gyre]

Kitkat,

I was rehabbing a robin with a head injury, and the day I was going to release it choked on nightcrawler.. :confused: What self respecting robin chokes on a worm?

[adamanteus]

Hey. **** happens, I once drowned a Caiman I was supposed to be caring for!....Don't ask!

[Gyre]

It's hard not to ask.. lol :D Aren't they pretty hard to drown?..

Along the same lines, my friend was gathering up some animals to bring to the county fair.. He had his prize winning rooster, and his prize winning ram. And as we starting loading them up, the rooster starts attacking the ram. After about five minutes of getting kicked in the face, the ram very quickly and calmly mashed the rooster into the ground. One headbutt. :p

Yeah, it shouldn't have been funny.. but I won't lie. The rooster totally started it.

[duh duh duh]

sorry to hear about your loss.