end of the hibernation

[Markus18]

hello and happy new year to all of you!
today was the ending of the hibernation of my "florida blues´s"
they were hibernating for two months.that was my first hibernating and the snakes are ok!they have the same weight like before there hibernating started.i brought them bach in their compleatly cleaned terrarium and theyre started to crawl.i was sitting for one hour at the terrarium.then they were laying under the sunspot!im very happy that my snakes back and that ican say everthing is ok with them!greets
Markus19:)

[Snaky]

Always nice if they're ok. Did you raise the temperature gradually? I think that very big temperature changes are not that good... well, I try to make them as small as possible.

[Markus18]

today i make the lights on fot two hours!tomorow for 4 hours!but im not sure maybe it wouldt be better when i make it tommorow for 3 hours and friday for 4 hours!????what you say?

[abcat1993]

I don't know where to put this in but I read in a book on north american reptiles & amphibians that garter snakes can live with thier blood around 40% frozen. Also, in a test, half of the garters lived when they lowered the temp to around -50 degrees farenheit. I am not sure about the exact nubers but it was amazing either way.

[Markus18]

i read in a magazin that some garter snakes hibernate in water!thats really amazing!next time i take a look in the mag and then i post the whole text about it!and there is also a text about the post above me!

[abcat1993]

That's weird. What type were they and where?

[Snaky]

I just don't take the risk. It doesn't mean that if some garters survived that, that I should do the same:p I measure around abit and try to put them so the temperature gradually increases. After that I put them back in the terrarrium I gradually increase the light cycle, because it's already quite warm under the lights ( >20°C in my case).

[Markus18]

now i have a question!
my florida blues have the same parents!and now i dont want that they have sex because i dont want inzestsnakes!should i let them do it or not?when they do it and get babys i give them to the reptileshop.and then somebody buy 2 of them and let them have sex and then he give them to the the reptileshop!maybe then im the reason why sometimes nobody have florida blues in my city!and the man from the told me that he doesnt know much people that have gartersnakes!so the people buy all the time inzestsnakes!thats a little bit crazy but i think about it all the time!and its a bad feeling for me thats i have maybe snakes with no good blood?so what should i do?

[Markus18]

jap snaky! i keep the light day by day one hour longer on!

[abcat1993]

I was just saying how resilient they are. And I think we're talking different units of degrees. I meant fahrenheit not celcius.

[Snaky]

I've heard many different opinion's about it. In my opinion, I would not let them breed. I'd look for a different bloodline.

That said, lot's of morphs are bred mother to son. I've also heard that most of t.s. tetrataenia that can be bought in Belgium/The Netherlands are from 1 couple ( I don't know if it's correct, I've heard this). So it can produce a healthy litter.

[Cazador]

Markus,
When you're dealing with inbreeding (incestual bloodlines), you increase the probability that the offspring will be homozygous (have two copies of the same gene) for deleterious (bad) genes that run in a particular family line. It's a gamble, and in my opinion, it contributes to why many captive born snakes fail to thrive when they come from intense breeding traits.

Here are three options: 1) see if you can trade one of your siblings to someone else with a Florida blue. 2) you could breed it with another T. sirtalis subspecies that is melanistic or albino. You'd create an intergrade, which happens in the wild anyway and wouldn't affect the fertility of the offspring. They would also have the characteristics of your Florida blue since albinism and melanism is recessive. 3) If you choose to breed your siblings now, you could breed their offspring to an albino or melanistic snake in the future to enhance their genetic diversity.

Matt,
The issue of freezing is a complicated one. Some species have "anti-freeze proteins," so they're able to super-cool themselves. Other species are freeze tolerant, but both systems require acclimation to cold temperatures. Also -40 is the same whether it's in Celsius or Farenheit, and -50F = -45.5C. I'd be amazed if they could survive those extremes, but then again, garters are amazing ;). I also doubt that garter species/subspecies from Southern locales would be able to survive sub-freezing temperatures because they haven't evolved to do so.

[Snaky]

I should go for option 1. There are quite some people breeding with florida blue, I don't think it will be to hard to get a species of a different bloodline.

I'm not that big a fan of intergrades if you can keep the subspecies clean.

[Cazador]

Hi Markus,
I should have mentioned that a lot of people choose to bring their snakes out of hibernation/brumation slowly. If, for example, they were in a cool closet, one might choose to open the door to the closet and let it warm slightly for a few days. Then bring the snakes closer to the door to warm a bit more for a few days. Then put them in their unheated terrarium. Then start gradually heating their enclosure, like you're doing.

They may take food after a few days, but don't be surprised if they don't eat for a few weeks after returning to normal temperature. This is also a very important time to closely monitor their health since their immune system is still weak because of the lower temperatures. Keep us posted, okay?
Rick

[Snaky]

I have 2 snakes that I bought 3 weeks ago. Back then they where coming out of brumation, but they haven't eaten yet. Since they are newborns of july I'm getting a bit worried. Does anybody have some tricks?

Every 3 days I gave them a bit food, I've tried:
- smelt (I think, it's straight from the dictionary)
- earthworm
- living fish ( those zebra striped little fish )

They are still quite alive, but I'm thinking not to wait to long before to force them to eat... I don't want to lose them.

(I would have created a seperate thread, but I found it also as question to the previous post)

[abcat1993]

Matt,
The issue of freezing is a complicated one. Some species have "anti-freeze proteins," so they're able to super-cool themselves. Other species are freeze tolerant, but both systems require acclimation to cold temperatures. Also -40 is the same whether it's in Celsius or Farenheit, and -50F = -45.5C. I'd be amazed if they could survive those extremes, but then again, garters are amazing ;). I also doubt that garter species/subspecies from Southern locales would be able to survive sub-freezing temperatures because they haven't evolved to do so.

Here's a clip from the book "They mainly rely on another system known as freezing tolerance. As the temperature drops, ice begins to form in their body fluids, and their blood thickens as it begins to freeze. In experiments, garter snakes were able to survive temperatures as low as -58 degrees F (-50 degrees C) for up to three hours in the fall, during which the blood contained up to 40 percent ice. After 10 hours the ice content rose to 50%, and only about half of the snakes survived. After 24 hours it rose to 70 percent, and none survived."
The book's called Encyclopedia of North American Reptiles and Amphibians
I forgot to add that it says they do have cryoprotectants, but only in small amounts

[Cazador]

That is really cool, Matt! Not many "large," terrestrial organisms are freeze tolerant. Thanks for sharing.

Snaky,
Give them about 16 hours of daylight and 8 hours of dark per day, and make put their temperature somewhere between the mid-70s and mid-80s F (24-29C) with plenty of hiding spots. Then you can try putting those Danio rerio (zebrafish) in a small jar lid with just enough water to make them splash and flop around with their backs exposed to the air. If the snakes come to investigate, you might even try dropping a small, live fish right onto floor of the terrarium. The motion and smell should help out.

Keep trying different foods, like you've done (worms, fish, pinkie parts). If nothing else works, you might have to force feed them. This works best with two people when you're just getting the hang of it. One person holds the snake just behind the head, while the second person gently opens the snake's mouth. Then the first person inserts the fish head first deep into the snake's mouth/throat. If it spits the fish back out, you might have to use forceps or tweezers to get the fish further down the snake's throat. This is pretty much a last resort, though because it can be stressing for the snake. After you've force fed the snake once, try letting it eat on its own every day for the next three days. When you're force feeding, the fish shouldn't be wider or deeper than the snake's head. Let us know if you need more help with this technique,
Rick

P.S. Are the ribs starting to show on the underside of the snakes?

[Cazador]

Hey Hans,
I want to clarify something I said above. I recommended 16 hours of light and 8 hours of darkness and somewhat elevated temperatures to "wake your snakes up." I noticed that you have two species from the Texas area and one from Oregon. Typical photoperiods for Texas on 1 May are about 13.5 hours of light and 10.5 hours of darkness. Around summer solstice (21 June), the photoperiod is about 14 hours of light and 10 hours of darkness.

In Oregon, typical light:dark cycles on 1 May are 14:10 hours, and they reach 15:9 hours by summer solstice. If you're not comfortable giving them a bit more daylight than normal, then bump it down to the photoperiods I just mentioned. My first recommendation (16L:8D) was sort of a "generalized" photoperiod that laboratories sometimes work with to simulate spring/summer conditions. Some folks even recommend keeping snakes on a photoperiod of 12L:12D year around, but I don't consider this to be natural at all.

The transfer to new surroundings as they were coming out of brumation may be a fairly significant factor as well. Make sure they have plenty of good hiding places to help them feel more comfortable, and you should also try presenting food to them at different times of the day/night. Then walk away. Hope this helps,
Rick

[Snaky]

Thanks for the answer. I'll make the daylight time longer, the temperature is ok. And I'll take just as much water with the zebra fish that they'll do that. The ribs are not showing at this moment.

edit: The 2 new concinnus are not eating.

[Markus18]

today i gave my snake the first fish since the hibernation.they took it delay.today the light was on for 4 hours.i made the light on at 9 in the morning.shouldt i make the lite on in the morning or in the evening?
markus:confused:

[Cazador]

If it's the only light they get, it doesn't matter when you turn it on. If they also get sunlight/daylight, then I'd turn your light on about mid-day.

If your snakes are already eating, make sure the temperature is warm enough so that they can digest their food. I don't know if you're using separate lights to provide light and heat, or if you're using an under tank heater. If it's not warm enough, the food could start to accumulate in their stomachs and lead to a bacterial infection, regurgitation, and illness.
Rick

P.S. Congratulations on getting them to eat. I bet you're relieved.

[Markus18]

i have a sunspot in the terrarium which is heat and light up the terrarium.
im glad that they ate.today i saw the first excrement in the terrarium.
the light is on for 5 hours today.
markus