first shed...

[nessy]

Hi everybody! Hope you all had a great christmas!!

My baby snake is ready to shed for the first time (since i bought it) are there any precautions that i should take?

Also, i'm assuming it's normal that she isn't eating at the moment - how long should shedding take (so she doesn't starve)? Her eyes have just gone a bit cloudy. This is my first shed and i would really appreciate some advice.

Thanks guys!!:)

[KITKAT]

Hi

Congrats on the new snake, and welcome to the forum!

Now that your baby has cloudy eyes, it will take a few days for the eyes to clear and the skin to begin to slough off. She will need something rough to rub against to start the shedding process... a climbing branch, a rock, etc.

Not eating during the cloudy eye stage is normal for many snakes. I have had a few that continue to eat, but many stop for a few days.

It is good to have the cage dry, but to have a moist spot in one corner of the cage. I like to take a margarine tub and cut a small hole in one of the bottom corners, using a hot knife. Try to avoid any jagged edges.

I put a moistened and slightly crumpled paper towel inside, and snap the lid back on. If the humidity in the cage is OK, your snake may not use this, but if she needs higher humidity, she may go in and rub around in the paper towel.

Once the shed is finished, take out the skin and look it over closely. See if it looks complete, and whether the eye caps are included. If not, come back to the forum for help.

After her shed, your snake should have enhanced colors for awhile. It is the best time for photos!

[ssssnakeluvr]

your little snake will be fine...it won't starve to death that fast. Snakes were designed for going long periods without meals. After she sheds, she will start eating fine again.

[Elliot]

Congrats on the first shed!

[nessy]

Thank you guys!! especially Kitkat: I'll go and do that now!!

Thanks!!!

[nessy]

Once the shed is finished, take out the skin and look it over closely. See if it looks complete, and whether the eye caps are included. If not, come back to the forum for help.

Hey guys, my snake shed on new years eve. the shed skin is all in one piece but there was no eye cap, nor any skin off the top of the head. i tried to look for it incase it came off separately, but couldn't find it.:confused:

It looks like she's shed properly though, what do you guys think? here's a pic of her head:

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r47/bobmcpop/006.png

[GarterGuy]

It looks good...usually if the eye caps are left on you can see kind of an edge to them around the eye itself. The head also looks nice and clean with out any skin edges on it either. It may have just been rubbed off somewhere in the tank. I know sometimes my guys will totally destroy the head part of the shed, rubbing it on the wood and such in their tanks.

[abcat1993]

Do any snakes eat thier sheds? I'm pretty sure that it wasn't a snake but I remember some bug/animal/other thing eats thier shedded skin.

[Stefan-A]

Not to my knowledge. I've had frogs, toads and newts that ate their shedded skin, but I've never seen a reptile do it.

[CrazyHedgehog]

my leopard geckos eat their sheds, literally off their own back!

[nessy]

yeah, my old leopard gecko used to as well!

[nessy]

...and my terrapins, but i think they ate it cos they were bored rather than for any particular reason...

[Stefan-A]

Well, my slider, skinks and anoles never did. :)

[Cazador]

I've read that snakes can eat their sheds, but I've never personally seen it. I also agree that your snake's head looks good, Nessy. If it hasn't eaten the missing portion, maybe it's just stuck to a wall, ceiling, or wedged in a small crevice somewhere. They become very sticky after they're peeled off and can adhere to anything, particularly the smooth surfaces of the water bowl.
Rick

[Markus18]

hy nessy!
very nice snake! i like the green color of the head!!!

[Markus18]

@cazador
in the book "strumpfbandnattern" is a picture from a thamnophis that eat his shed! but there is a text where stand that the shed was smelling like fish!and when the snake makes "****" the shed looks like before eating!

[abcat1993]

I agree, nice snake; maybe you should enter the photo contest (hint, hint, nudge nudge)

[nessy]

haha, thanks guys, i'll keep that in mind.:o
but it's not fancy/colourful like all your snakes, mine is pretty ordinary, i'd rather admire your pictures.
but i am flattered though. thanks.:)

thanks for all your help by the way!!!

[abcat1993]

So, mine is ordinary (Although, I did lose with zero votes) and I still put it in there.

[Snaky]

What is ordinary? I have 1 albino, the rest is the 'ordinary' coloration of the different species. That doesn't mean you can't have a nice animal and take a nice picture;)

[Cazador]

Thanks Markus. Man, I want that book.

Nessy and all,
The photo contests are just a way for us all to admire each other's snakes and generate a bit of activity. It's just for fun, particularly since there's no prize.
Rick

[abcat1993]

I would say an ordinary garter (to me) is an eastern garter or a butlers garter. Pretty much anything that's green with a white/yellow stripe down it's back.

[nessy]

i meant ordinary as in the most common in petshops where i live, i think its an eastern :confused: that's what the shop owner told me...

anyway, you're right: it is just a bit of fun :) and i owe a little contribution for all the help i've got from this forum ;)

i hope i haven't offended anyone by sayin mine was ordinary. i meant it was the most commonly sold garter here... hope there's no hard feelings :(

[nessy]

i managed to take a few pictures

although, it is impossible for me to keep her still!! and the image is so easily blurded.... perhaps i'll need to shorten the exposure or something, when i find out how! haha

would be nice if you guys could confirm what species/subspecies/type/breed :confused: (i'm not sure what the right word is) she is...

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r47/bobmcpop/01-01-07008.jpg

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r47/bobmcpop/01-01-07006.jpg




and here's a pic i took on new years day of her shed skin, to give you an idea how big it is:

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r47/bobmcpop/01-01-07001.jpg

[GarterGuy]

Well I'll put my vote in for her being a Redsided garter....Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis. Looks a lot like my Manitoba redsided I used to have quite a time ago.

[nessy]

haha, goes to show what the shop owner knew,:rolleyes: i just checked on google and it looks nothing like an eastern!! :mad:

is "Manitoba redsided" a separate division of "Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis"? or do they mean the same?:confused: :o

thanks!

[GarterGuy]

Yeh, they pretty much mean the same thing. T.s.parietalis ranges over a fairly large area of central and northern US up into several areas in Canada. A Manitoba Redsided is just a T.s.parietalis from that region of Canada...at one time most redsideds came from there. There are large snake dens in the province where tons of snakes used to be collected for the pet trade (actually it's the largest gathering of snakes in the world :D ), they've since outlawed commercial collection of snakes from those areas....but I'm sure there are some still floating around out there and there could be Manitoba bloodlines being bred as well.

[abcat1993]

I don't know but I have to say that looks like a red sided to me.

[Markus18]

@nessy
for me its a parietalis too!
take a look at my pictures!then you see it

[ssssnakeluvr]

I also say its a red sided garter.....

[Stefan-A]

Not just that, it looks exactly like mine, which you did identify as a red sided. Coincidence? ;)

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/male04.jpg

OT: Just noticed a nice detail a couple of days ago after the last shed, while it was eating a fish. It has a red horizontal line about 30mm long between the scales where the lateral stripe meets the darker area above. Just on the border between the two areas and it starts just behind the head. Going to try to get a good shot of it next time.

[Stefan-A]

OT Part 2

Found a picture from about 1 ½ years ago that shows a bit of it. It has developed since then.
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/male04feed.jpg

[nessy]

OT Part 2

Found a picture from about 1 ½ years ago that shows a bit of it. It has developed since then.


yeah i noticed that my snake's red spots were much more pronounced after her shed recently, it must develop with each shed... :D

[nessy]

sorry, forgot to add: nice picture! do you know how long he/she is? oh, and what fish is that you're feeding?

[Stefan-A]

Thanks. He is 65cm (just over 25"). 55cm when those pictures were taken.

The fish is a bleak (Alburnus alburnus). Not the best food for a garter snake, since it is likely to contain thiaminase, but I didn't know that over a year ago (although I did feed him vitamin supplements). A real shame, you can easily catch several kilos of those fish in a night.

[abcat1993]

You know you can edit your posts. No offense
I think I'll edit it now.
This is just a reminder for all of you who post twice (jason told me about it/warned me)

[Stefan-A]

Yeah, for 30 minutes.

[Snaky]

Thanks. He is 65cm (just over 25"). 55cm when those pictures were taken.

The fish is a bleak (Alburnus alburnus). Not the best food for a garter snake, since it is likely to contain thiaminase, but I didn't know that over a year ago (although I did feed him vitamin supplements). A real shame, you can easily catch several kilos of those fish in a night.
If it's that easy for you to catch them, I would not hesitate to give it to them. Just supplement it with vitamine B1 :)

[Stefan-A]

I don't know if it would really work that way. I don't need to do it either, vendace (Coregonus albula) is very cheap to buy, 300g costs as much as one 3-week-old frozen mouse at the pet store, and shouldn't contain any thiaminase.

[abcat1993]

I thought that didn't help since thiaminase destroys vitamin B1 (or Thiamine, or whatever)
we keep posting at the same time

[nessy]

@ snaky: there's no small fish here in good old england, the only common one are sticklebacks, dont know if you can feed the snake them with their spikes

@ abcat1993: oh, okay, sorry about that. erm, i'm not quite sure how to do it though... can you tell me? (sorry i'm such a newbie)


sorry, haha, i never saw the editing button. is that what you meant stefan? that its only there for 30 mins, cos i've never seen it before now. sorry guys, i wont do it again :)

[abcat1993]

I don't really know either, see, I'm a noob too

[Stefan-A]

Editing is allowed for 30 minutes after you first posted. The button does disappear after that.

After that you have to make a new post if you have anything to add.

[Stefan-A]

nessy, about 1/5 of the fish I catch when I'm catching bleak (using a net), are yearling roach (Rutilus rutilus). Those should exist in Britain too, although they also contain thiaminase. And then there is the Eurasian minnow (Phoxinus phoxinus).

Edit: And stupid as I am, I just made a new post despite just having explained how editing works. :D abcat, this is the kind of situation where one would use that banana.

[Cazador]

Hey Nessy,
We have a ton of stickleback here in Alaska, too. I've considered feeding them to my snakes but decided not to. They are almost always heavily parasitized. You can usually find a white, fluke-like parasite called schistocephalus sp. in their abdomens simply by squeezing it out their cloaca. You'll notice many populations of stickleback with small, black spots on them. Those are another kind of parasite, but I don't remember it's name at the moment. Another common parasite forms pustules. Some inhabit the eye. The list is nearly endless. I spoke with parasitologists from England and Norway last fall (early August) who use the threespine stickleback as a model organism on which to study parasites, so the infestation of this species complex is extremely widespread.
Rick

Here's a link to a National Academy of Sciences report that says which fish contain or lack thiaminase. Unfortunately, stickleback were not analyzed. Notice that the table is two pages long. The top part lists fish with thiaminase, and the bottom part (and second page) lists those without.

Nutrient Requirements of Mink and Foxes, (http://books.nap.edu/books/030903325X/html/64.html#page_top)

[abcat1993]

:D abcat, this is the kind of situation where one would use that banana.
NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!! Please NO

[Snaky]

@abcat, nessy:
Thiaminase is an enzyme that will tackle vitamine B1. This does not mean that in nature gartes won't eat those fish, they just eat enough diversity to get the vitamine B1. So it's not a problem to give them fish that contains thiaminase if you supplement it with vitamine B1, which I get for free (powder form) at the local pharmacy.

edit:
You can also kill the thiaminase by heating the fish to ( I think ) 80 °C.

And the list of fish that contain thiaminase and those who don't is handy.

[Cazador]

Hans,
It really is a dangerous game to play if you're primarily feeding fish that contain the thiaminase enzyme since one enzyme molecule can process tens of thousands (maybe more) substrate molecules during its "lifetime." You're exactly right about it being a matter of density between the enzyme and substrate concentrations, but since you can't easily see the effects until it's too late, it's hard to know if you're giving too much or too little thiamine supplement.

The effects of feeding a diet of only goldfish without B1 supplementation, for example, may take 6 months or longer to appear. Then, they could easily be mistaken for general illness or stress. Low level thiamine deficiencies may only result in decreased growth rate or reproductive failure, rather than weakness or death, but who wants either of those to happen? There are so many other choices of nutritious fish out there, that I think the risks involved outweigh the need to feed fish that contain thiaminase.

[Stefan-A]

None of the species I use are actually on it and oddly enough, species from the same genus are on both lists, so there's obviously no point in even assuming that closely related species share that trait. It's of limited use to me, unfortunately.

If I ever get the chance to study thiamniase in Baltic fish species, I will. Could be an idea for a future thesis, if I'm lucky. ;)

[Snaky]

@cazador:
I always give a variaty of food. But what I wanted to say was: "I don't hesitate to give also fish with thiaminase. They catch the fish in the wild also and I supplement the fish with B1."

Also to much thiamine (or vitamine B1 for those that don't know) is quite difficult to give. B1 is a vitamine that is solvable in water, so to much is just given out in the urine. For a human for example you need to eat it practically by the kilo (figurely speaking;)) before you'll have to much B1, the body can easily regulate it.

[nessy]

Cazador: you're right about the parasites, i caught and kept a few, they all developed white lumps and died.

i'm feeding mine on smelt at the moment, but on the link it's reported on both lists, only difference is one's from "pond" and the other "freshwater"... but ponds are freshwater aren't they?:confused: i've also fed her strips of black tilapia.

Snaky:

So it's not a problem to give them fish that contains thiaminase if you supplement it with vitamine B1, which I get for free (powder form) at the local pharmacy.
hi, i'm assuming the pharmacy B1 suppliment is for people, are they okay to use with snakes? because over here human vitamin powder would be a lot cheaper than "specialist" snake suppliments...

[abcat1993]

only difference is one's from "pond" and the other "freshwater"... but ponds are freshwater aren't they?:confused: i've also fed her strips of black tilapia.

I would assume so, at least in America they are. Maybe it means brackish.

[CrazyHedgehog]

Hey Nessie,
also from UK, and yes things like rosy's are about £2 each,
Mice pinkies are about 55p from pet shops or about 20p online... so you Americans can imagine how expensive it is to feed our snakes...

I buy mice and pinkies in bulk online from icemice...(pinkies down to 19p) and have a draw in the freezer just for frozen mice!!
and feed both mice and chopped up trout.

Trout has NO thiamanese apparently, I buy it from Asda, chop into bite size bits and feed with mice, sometimes alternately, sometimes mixed..

All my snakes eat both.

I have not used a suppliment ever (well since the 80's when I was feeding on whitebait) But all snakes lively and healthy..

Oh and I give them the odd garden worm (what the americans on here call night crawlers, threw me at first, I thought it was some foriegn insect that they ate!) just make sure its the common garden thing and not the redder ones that you find under sacks or in composts as they are toxic to your snakes..

[abcat1993]

Hey Nessie,
also from UK, and yes things like rosy's are about £2 each,
Mice pinkies are about 55p from pet shops or about 20p online
Lucky, here they're about 4 dollars in pet stores (4USD = ~3.07 EUR)


Oh and I give them the odd garden worm (what the americans on here call night crawlers, threw me at first, I thought it was some foriegn insect that they ate!) just make sure its the common garden thing and not the redder ones that you find under sacks or in composts as they are toxic to your snakes..

And, (I don't know if they have these there) but watch out for red worms, they are found commonly in some people's gardens and are toxic to garters.
OH, wait, this is my third time editing this, I didn't read the rest of your post.

[CrazyHedgehog]

Lucky, here they're about 4 dollars in pet stores (4USD = ~3.07 EUR)
LOL
what the rosy's?

$4= £2
we pay the same then!
I have seen pinkies in America sold online for about 10 cents each!!! so frozen are cheaper over there!(if your paying more try searching the internet!!)

[Cazador]

Hi Hans,
It looks like they tested two different genera (plural for genus) of smelt. The first one (Osmerus mordax) came from the Great Lakes in the U.S., but it didn't say where the second one (Hypomesus olidus) originated. They were both from freshwater sources, though. Maybe an internet search on their scientific names would help you recognize which (if any) you're feeding.

I don't know if the fact that reptiles are designed to conserve liquid and don't urinate as often as mammals would have any bearing on vitamin B1's passage rate, and hence it's toxicity.

[abcat1993]

OK, wait, I really don't know what I'm talking about. I meant mice, but I did a bag with three mice in it, not one, and I did the wrong thing (insert banana here)

[CrazyHedgehog]

no....not the dreaded banana.....aggggghhhhh

[Stefan-A]

I was *this* close to quoting him and inserting it. Had it all ready and just waiting for me to press the button, but I managed to stop myself.

[Cazador]

I think from this point on, we can just mention the banana and have an even more dramatic effect than actually seeing it :D.

[abcat1993]

Maybe we need to make a banana thread, to express our frustration about our posts, and post all the bananas we want. We'll have our own banana paradise

[Stefan-A]

You're the one who brought it up. :)

[KITKAT]

In the 70's, the Ohio state University Marching Band had a different mascot for each "rank" of band members. The sousaphone players were the BANANNAS!:rolleyes:

[Snaky]

hi, i'm assuming the pharmacy B1 suppliment is for people, are they okay to use with snakes? because over here human vitamin powder would be a lot cheaper than "specialist" snake suppliments...
It's not vitamine B1 that you buy as tablets, added with some other things. It's really vitamine B1 powder pure, pharmacies use it sometimes to add in mixtures they make themselves on a prescription from the doctor.

I also use a vitamin powder for reptiles once in a while to add as supplement, because there's a lot more other vitamines/calcium/... in there. They can benefit from it if you add it once in a while, I think.


I don't know if the fact that reptiles are designed to conserve liquid and don't urinate as often as mammals would have any bearing on vitamin B1's passage rate, and hence it's toxicity.
Do you have any studies on that, I'd be interested in reading on the toxicity level with snakes of to much B1? I would still think that it's hard to reach toxic levels with vitamin B1, but if it's proven otherwise I'm interested of course.

But for those that worry about it, heating the fish to 80°C for some minutes (never done it myself, so don't know how many) does the trick of killing thiaminase. Still the fish don't contain B1, so I would still add a little supplement.

[Cazador]

Hi Hans,
I don't have any studies about toxic levels of B1 in reptiles. I was just wondering... thinking out loud.
Rick

[abcat1993]

Would a garter even take a cooked fish? (80 degrees C)

[Stefan-A]

It's not really cooking until it reaches 100 degrees C, but the consistency of the fish should start to change at around 50. Sliders will take once heated fish, but I can't say about snakes.

[nessy]

crazyhedgehog:

Oh and I give them the odd garden worm (what the americans on here call night crawlers, threw me at first, I thought it was some foriegn insect that they ate!) just make sure its the common garden thing and not the redder ones that you find under sacks or in composts as they are toxic to your snakes..
i'm never sure about garden worms, i used to chop them up and feed them to my slider when he was small, but there's soooo much muck in them, :eek: does that not matter for the snake's digestive system? i know what you mean about the red worms, i noticed that when my slider refused to eat them... (oh and yeah, about the nightcrawlers: me too :) )

i'm not too worried about mice at the moment cos she's still only small

i've also heard of people feeding slugs, but aparently they're pretty bad with parasite

Trout has NO thiamanese apparently, I buy it from Asda, chop into bite size bits and feed with mice, sometimes alternately, sometimes mixed..
trout has no thiaminase?! wow really, that's real helpful cos i've been looking for safe/common fish like that for ages!! i've got an ASDA right over the road! THANKS!!:D

[Stefan-A]

Doesn't seem to matter for the snake that the worms are full of muck. I hear one way to get rid of it, is to leave the worms in a can with moist paper towels for a few hours, but I've never tried it. I just wipe the worst off the surface.

Gave one of mine an Eisenia (the toxic kind) by accident once. It regurgitated it a couple of minutes later and then tried to eat it again, but I decided it was best to get rid of it alltogether. They look a lot like nightcrawlers, only smaller and their coloring is slightly banded.

We don't have any slugs big enough to get a garters attention. Or we might have one, Limax cinereoniger, but I think it might be toxic.

I've been looking for a fish that I could give to my snakes whole. Salmon would probably be perfect (although some say it's too fatty), if you could get your hands on salmon parr. You'd think that just feeding your snake muscle tissue could lead to some kind of deficiency.

[CrazyHedgehog]

I've been looking for a fish that I could give to my snakes whole. Salmon would probably be perfect (although some say it's too fatty), if you could get your hands on salmon parr. You'd think that just feeding your snake muscle tissue could lead to some kind of deficiency.

Yes I would prefer to give whole fish, but unable to get hold of any large quantities of a decent one...If you find a source in the uk, then please pass it on, as there are a few of us that would be interested...

I will leave bits of bone in the fish, as long as its not sticking out nastily, and because its mixed with pinkies, or mice, they still get a fair amount of bone content..

[Cazador]

I think that most people who feed fish fillets occasionally supplement it with calcium and vitamin/mineral powder. Personally, I'm a big advocate of occasionally supplementing any diet with vitamins and minerals and providing a bit of variety once in a while. I also think that feeding fillet strips from an adult salmon would be much more likely to be high in fats/oils than parr since the parr are growing rapidly and haven't accumulated rich fat stores, yet. In fact, the omega-3 fatty acid that salmon are so famous far is only accumulated at sea when salmon eat phytoplankton and/or the consumers of phytoplankton higher up the food web. Most of the fat can be trimmed off the mid-section of a fillet very easily.

[nessy]

crazyhedgehoge: is rainbow-trout okay? thanks!

[Sid]

Check Dr. Alan Francis web page. It has a receipe for home made Garter food and the main ingrediate is trout.

*Garter Snake Home Page - Alan Francis (http://www.gartersnake.co.uk/)

Sid

[CrazyHedgehog]

As far as I know all trout does not contain Thiamine, (I use rainbow trout)

[Cazador]

Rainbow trout are a good, healthy food that lack thiaminase. Be sure to freeze them for at least three days, though to kill off the majority of parasites, and you'll be in good shape. Also, leave the bones in the fillets, but make sure they're not sharp and sticking out.

[GarterGuy]

Ok...so let me get this strait (I'm great at IDing, but this thiaminase stuff still kind of confuses me!)....you can feed garters frozen trout with out them sufferning from thiaminase problems?

[CrazyHedgehog]

Not a total expert but here goes...

Garter snakes need vitamin B to be generally healthy and digest food.

Thiamane seeks and destroys any trace of Vitamin B

So A snake fed on Thiamine rich fish not only get no Vitamin B from it, but any they had in their body is getting actively destroyed.

Whitebait, mackeral, goldfish all have thiamin...

Trout has no Thiamine.

Another source of B1 is gained from sunlight, but the weather in Britain is so un predictable that there is either not enough sun, or enough in 10 minutes to totally cook your snake..not good...

I think that mice are the best food source hands down, always had healthy snakes on just mice, but trout adds another food source that is readilly available and I am sure variety is the key!

Years ago, my first snake had a B1 deficiency fit, well several, a few injections and then the inclusion of suppliment powder, and a full recovery....but it was because I was feeding purely on whitebait..:-( that was what the store keeper had suggested at the time...
(OK, you lot, please correct anything if I have got that totally wrong)

[Cazador]

Good job, Crazyhedgehog. I'd just clarify that "thaimin" is a vitamin, but "thiaminase" is the enzyme that destroys thiamin (AKA vitamin B1), and that thiamin (vit B1) is a necessary part of an energy production pathway (glycolysis) that our body needs to produce energy (ATP). Thiamin is also critical for neural function. Without enough thiamin, a snake, frog, rabbit, dog, person... becomes weak, fails to reproduce, may suffer neurological problems (including seizures), fails to eat, loses weight, and may lose bowel control. In humans, this condition (due to insufficient thiamin levels) is called Beri Beri disease. Unfortunately, I've witnessed a snake die from this, and it is a very ugly sight, that is easily prevented by providing a healthy diet and occasionally supplementing with B1.
Rick

[Cazador]

Hey Nessy,
I wanted to follow up and see how your snake is doing? Does the skin on its head still look fresh and new?
Rick

[nessy]

hi rick, thanks for the consideration.
yeah she's fine, i think her skin has gone a little duller but still looks new.:)

[ssssnakeluvr]

not again....:( I'm not a fan of Paris Hilton...spoiled rich brat!!!!!!

[abcat1993]

She kinda reminds me of my 6th grade teacher

[Cazador]

Yah, my 6th grade teacher was always riding around naked on a horse, too. Man, was he ugly ;).

[abcat1993]

All I can say is :p :p :p :p

[GarterGuy]

Hmmmm....I seem to be missing all the naked pics?:eek:

[abcat1993]

Really? I think they might only be showing up on my computer :p
JK

[nessy]

not again....:( I'm not a fan of Paris Hilton...spoiled rich brat!!!!!!

haha how did you get onto this subject? private joke? not something i said i hope

[abcat1993]

Somebody posted pics of her on her horse, etc.
And Cazador deleted it.

[nessy]

ohhh, haha, how random....
i thought it was another one of those banana jokes lol (took me ages finding the thread and see what you where talkin about lol)

[Cazador]

Nessy,
The Paris Hilton pictures were in post #81 before I deleted them. After they disappeared, I was double checking that they were gone and saw your post (#80). Imagine that the pictures came before your post (#80). Then re-read your post. It had me a bit confused at first.
Rick

[Boots]

I think I deleted a set of pictures as well. That might be why everyone is confused. Just trying to keep the forum clean. :)

Jason