Another mystery garter

[Stefan-A]

But not mine. :D

This is from an old thread on another forum. It was once upon a time for sale somewhere under the name East River something snake, or something along those lines. It had a length of approximately 80cm (~31 inches) at the time.

The guesses were mostly T. sirtalis. For the record, I disagree.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/mystery1.jpg

[jewel-dragons]

i see a nerodia fasciata specie at the background :-D

[Stefan-A]

Quite possible. :D

[enigma200316]

I don't know, the side stripe looks like its just on 3 and 4, and isn't sirtalis
2 and 3 with maybe some on 4???

[Stefan-A]

That's right, sirtalis has the stripe in 2 and 3.

The stripe says it's a radix. But the coloration is a bit confusing, since it's dark and it doesn't seem to have much of a pattern.

[jewel-dragons]

maybe sirtalis crossed by a radix?

i saw some photo's from a man at the egsa meeting last time,that was a cross parietalis X marcianus (was an accident he told me) they look like a marcianus with some red color in it :-D very nice garter..... but not how it has to be

[adamanteus]

Yes, I was thinking maybe sirtalis X radix cross.

[Stefan-A]

Found some pictures of radix that were uniform black between the stripes. They looked a bit different, but not significantly.

There's a dark morph radix on Alan Francis' home page as well, but it has the typical black markings below the lateral stripe.

[adamanteus]

The mother of a couple of my young radix is totally black, but for a purple vertebral stripe (anerythristic). My remaining radix are all quite different from each other. There is much variation.

[Zephyr]

I'm guessing radix as well.
They seem a bit more stocky in the neck, and the stripe just says "radix" from its appearance. Don't know how to explain it...

[enigma200316]

well right off the bat I thought radix as well, and everything matches,but the variation of color, so I say radix with nice dorsal stripe to I might add........;):)

[adamanteus]

I'm not convinced it's 'full' radix, I still think it's a cross.

[enigma200316]

I'm not convinced it's 'full' radix, I still think it's a cross.


true but has most radix features, I'll go with you James, after all we know and radix are some sorta cross too..............:rolleyes:;):D

[Stefan-A]

I'm not convinced it's 'full' radix, I still think it's a cross.
Any particular reason? Or pure gut feeling? As far as I can tell, it has all the signs of a radix. :confused: Except for the less typical colour.

[adamanteus]

I know it's a bit vague.... It just doesn't 'look' like a radix, the build is different and something about the head shape isn't quite radix.

[enigma200316]

so are we thinking radix/sirtalis maybe James???

[adamanteus]

so are we thinking radix/sirtalis maybe James???

That's what I said on page one, post seven!:D
I'm not saying it with any real certainty though. Who can truly know?

[enigma200316]

the snake itself, but have fun try to talk to it..............:rolleyes::D

[Stefan-A]

I disagree with the build being different and the head thing doesn't really work either. Even my vagrans have different head shapes and neither of my sirtalis were similar. :p

[adamanteus]

I think DNA sequencing is the only certain method of accurately determining some of these more difficult specimens.

[adamanteus]

I disagree with the build being different and the head thing doesn't really work either. Even my vagrans have different head shapes and neither of my sirtalis were similar. :p

It works for me. I can only think when you've seen and kept so many, you pick up on the more subtle differences and similarities between species. To me, that just isn't a radix head.

[Stefan-A]

There's a lot of variation even within the different species, I don't think analyzing head shapes is reliable enough to be used with species like sirtalis and radix.

But I agree, it's guesswork at best.

[GarterGuy]

I agree with Stephan, I'm thinking strait T.radix. I know I've seen pics before of darker individuals that lacked the tell tale spotting that we're used to seeing on radix. As variable as many of the other garter species can be (did someone say sirtalis), I wouldn't think it'd be that much of a a stretch to see a radix dark like this. They do range over a really large area, so some variation is to be expected. Can't really do a scale count from the pics though, so not sure if it's 19 or 21? Still just think it's a dark radix.

[ssssnakeluvr]

interesting ideas...I am leaning towards radix myself.

[zooplan]

With the snake in our hands, there might be a way of scale counting to identify the specie, but with one photo we can only go on guessing.:D

[reptileparadise]

A scale count would make a big difference...It looks like a radix to me, but I think I also see a hint of red in the snake (near the middle of his / her body) It could be me, or the monitor...Doesn't really matter either...Radix are also known to have red...

[Stefan-A]

Well, you can count the supralabials and the infralabials, and you can identify the scale rows the lateral stripe is in. :) You can even tell that the dorsal stripe has a very different colour than the lateral stripes. I did a bit of editing on my computer changing the contrast settings and even some black markings below the lateral stripe became visible. I don't see any red on it, though. It's a poor quality picture, apparently taken with a phone and not a camera.

What you can't count are teeth, total number of scale rows and subcaudal scales.

None of these eliminate the possibility that it's a hybrid, of course.