Birth defects

[adamanteus]

I thought this topic worth continuing, but not in the thread where it started as that is an interesting topic in itself.:)

aSnakeLovinBabe (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/members/asnakelovinbabe.html)

Was just about to get started when I noticed Upsy-Daisy at it again... taking a drink in the water bowl... upside down....

for anyone who didn't see previous info on this special little snake... it was born thinking that the top of it is heavier than the bottom of it. or something to that effect. Spends a lot of time upside down. haha, I am not really sure, but whatever the case here it is: (don't worry it's not drowning and that spot next to its head is NOT poo though it tricks me all the time into thinking it is)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v447/xxAngelinblackxx/002.jpg


anji1971 (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/members/anji1971.html)

I really get a kick out of the upside-down one -- too funny!

Stefan-A (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/members/stefan-a.html)

Sort of sad, in my opinion.

adamanteus (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/members/adamanteus.html)
Moderator

I agree with Stefan that the albino is 'sort of sad'. I must admit if it were mine, it would be in the freezer by now.

reptileparadise (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/members/reptileparadise.html)

I'm afraid I'm with Stefan and James...

aSnakeLovinBabe (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/members/asnakelovinbabe.html)

but um, I am sorry but I don't agree with freezing a snake that is otherwise healthy besides the fact that he's messed up balance-wise. He doesn't have seizures, and he's never on his side, it's always right side up or up side down.I have already stated that he's never going to bred or sold, just going to give him a life that he otherwise would never have had. He gives a great feeding response and is growing like a weed. He's not in any state of illness. If your son or daughter was born with a disorder of some sort that caused them not to be able to walk right or stand you wouldn't put them in the freezer, would you? Would you kill your dog if it were blind or deaf? Why should I treat my snake any differently.

No thanks, I'd much rather give my snake the time of day and the chance to live out his life in whatever way he can go about it.

Stefan-A (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/members/stefan-a.html)

Don't worry, we're not trying to tell you what to do with your snakes. :)

But I would call it a seizure, when he flips over. At the very least an illness. And actually, I would put my dog out of its misery if it was suffering from the same condition.

anji1971 (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/members/anji1971.html)

And what Shannon just said is precisely why I find the snake endearing. :)
If it were suffering in any way, that would be sad, but since I remembered reading about Upsy-Daisy in another thread, and everything mentioned above was mentioned then, I knew it was not a suffering snake.
An identity crisis, maybe................Upsy-Daisy just wants to be a bat, or a possum!:D

CrazyHedgehog (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/members/crazyhedgehog.html)

I have an upsy-daisy snake too, by any chance an albino?
Mine is an albino chequered, eats like a pig, no fitting, but spends much of its time upside down, like it doesn't know the difference. Wierd!..but as he is so 'with it' in every other way, hadn't the heart to do anything about it, moves normally in every other way, but if you turn it upside down, it doesn't right itself, just continues as if nothing is wrong!:o

[adamanteus]

As Stefan says, no one is trying to tell you what to do with your animals, Shannon. We each must make our own choices.
I too would call this a seizure, and would euthanase any pet with a similar condition if it couldn't be controlled with drugs. I wouldn't destroy a snake if it were blind. Obviously one wouldn't kill a child, but there's no comparison.

Snakes, of course, don't register distress in the same way mammals do... so we have no real way of knowing if such an animal is suffering.

What worries me is that such unpleasant defects should be considered in some way cute or endearing. Didn't we have a member last year actively seeking a two headed snake because it would be 'cool'?

This isn't intended as any kind of attack on you, Shannon, I just think it's a genuinely interesting debate.

[Zephyr]

Hmm. I blame inbreeding. Seeing as two members claim having snakes with this upside-down disorder, both being albino checkereds, I'd see it as a result of the breed. I'm pretty sure that to get an albino checkered garter snake, like many of the corn snake varieties, there was inbreeding. Probably heavy inbreeding, seeing as not many people are into garter as compared to ball puthons or corn snakes, and a pair of albinos would have been hard to come by.

[anji1971]

I'm not saying that it's cute and endearing meaning that I think it's a great thing to try to collect snakes with defects of some sort. I'm saying it to point out that everyone looks at these things differently.
Obviously, if I were really into breeding and research on garters, I would not look upon this as favourable, necessarily.
BUT.... as a regular girl who just loves snakes, I would definitely give one like this a chance to live as best it could. Both members who have these little upside down snakes are obviously quite attached to them, and since they are the ones who care for them on a regular basis and they don't seem to feel the snakes are suffering, then I have to go with the instinct of those owners.
In this case, for them and myself, it's probably just that we see these critters and have a soft spot for them -- they really are sweet to us, and I see nothing 'worrisome' about feeling that way.

[adamanteus]

Indeed. It's when people seek out such a snake in preference to a normal, healthy specimen (as in the 'I want one with two heads' case) that it becomes worrying.

[anji1971]

I understand that, but at the same time, if I found a snake with two heads, I'd keep it.;)

[EdgyExoticReptiles]

my vet said something about stargazing, crud i forgot, something like it was contagious or something and he said should not be kept with other snakes or near a collection

i forgot his actual words though ill ask again

[zooplan]

and a pair of albinos would have been hard to come by.

albino checkereds are quite common yet, but people allways like the easy way and breed the pure line instead of mating thier albinos to the most beautyful nominat specimens.

The amelanistiv red sided I´m breeding are 3th to 5th generation of closest inbreding and I hope I can get the first own hets from an unrelated female this year.

[drache]

I seem to recall that this particular snakes mom had an illness or accident while she was gravid
Sean's rescue just got a thayerii king with a mild "upper body" version of this - not knowing which side is up
we think it's from a spinal injury
it's a very nice snake otherwise and I find myself having a soft spot for it

[CrazyHedgehog]

I have 2 from the same breeder, but supposedly from different clutches..
1 is totally fine....the other is just ...well.. odd!
I have thought a few times that I should really do something about that... but haven't the heart.
I disagree with James, its not like a siezure, when its upside down, it moves in exactly the same way as when righted, if when you hold it, you turn it on its side, then it moves on its side quite normally, it doesn't seem to have a prefference for any way up thats all.
agree with Udo, pretty sure its an inbreeding defect though!

[mycolorfulheart]

I would probably keep + love the snake if it was mine. It is worrying though, that snakes and other reptiles don't show pain or discomfort the way mammals do. Obviously the snakes can eat, drink, bask....but is their life extremely uncomfortable? is there any way to tell?

[Lori P]

Well... my thoughts are, if the animal was suffering it would not show a normal feeding response, and it would stay secluded and lethargic. So personally, I'd tend to think that if this little guy is out feeding normally and moving around, he's not suffering; and if he was born this way, he has no clue that he's a bit odd. :-) I feel all warm and squooshy toward him, too, and would keep him as long as I felt sure he was not suffering. :-)

I have a rat terrier pup at the house with severe neurological problems; he falls over, he runs into things (like walls), he runs in the opposite way of where he intends to go and has to circle till he gets there. He goes backwards when he gets confused or too excited. His head wobbles all the time and is a bit crooked. But he's overall soooooo happy-- he's always wagging like crazy, he plays non stop, and he loooooves to snuggle and cuddle and throws himself at life with such gusto. He was brought to my vet to be euthanized, and they refused because he's not suffering; he's just different. He has no idea that anything he does is off; to him it's all in a day. I kind of equate that snake to him.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

my vet said something about stargazing, crud i forgot, something like it was contagious or something and he said should not be kept with other snakes or near a collection

i forgot his actual words though ill ask again


Just to clear things up, stargazing is genetic and is result from severe inbreeding. It's not contagious and it's something snakes are born doing. It to my knowledge has also been pretty much proven to be a recessive gene that has been brought out by obsessive inbreeding (hence why it has shown up in the most popular snakes- corns, ball pythons... etc)


Stargazers from what I understand don't do very well from the start, don't grow much and die young. Necropsies and studies on stargazers reveal NO clues and there is nothing different physically speaking between their brain and a normal snake's brain, so it is still puzzling as to what causes it. (this may have been updated since I last read up about it... so don't take my word for everything here) Stargazers act up more-so when they are excited. They stick their heads into the air and wobble a lot. My little guy is the same way all the time... he just really doesn''t have a preference as to which part of his body faces up! He also doesn't wobble and he's growing as fast as he can! I call him cute not because of what he does... just because I happen to find all baby snakes VERY cute and I find him cute in the sense that it seems he has no idea that he's not acting normal :)

As for mama snake, yes she was very ill when i recieved her and I am not sure how the idiot who owned her previously overlooked such a thing. All of this snakes brothers and sisters came out as slugs except for two. One died two months after birth. The surviving one doesn't do this.

on the last note... does anyone else here know what I mean when I say that snakes do express pain? They don't do it quite the same way we or other mammals do... but I could tell when my ratsnake had a mitebite that became infected that when I touched it, it hurt her. She would jerk real had and pull her skin away from me.

thanks to everyone who supports my idea of loving my weird little one :)

[drache]

they definitely do show when they feel pain

[anji1971]

As a snake owner, I think you can tell when your snake is in pain or suffering in some way. When Deejay's mom was ill, I just knew by looking at her that she was dying. There was just something different in the way she moved, and reacted to things. AND, she refused to eat!
I fully believe that if any snake is miserable, the owner will know it!

[Stefan-A]

I think there's a huge difference in how people (and why not animals) deal with chronic and acute pain. People with chronic pain or discomfort usually don't show it the same way, if at all.

I'm definitely convinced that pets can be in pain without showing it.

[reptileparadise]

Indeed. I believe that in nature, showing pain is equal to showing weakness. The last thing animals like to show.

Offcourse, snake owners DO see that their animals behave differently, but that could be induced by many, many factors.

[Zephyr]

Well, from experience, it's very hard to tell if a snake is dead or not from injury too. There are many disadvantages to having such as long spine and a lot of nerves to go along with it, and perhaps one is the inability to detect immediate pain.

[drache]

when I gave my king the antibiotic injections, his response to pain was obvious and unmistakable
the moment the needle pierced his skin, he'd jerk away
there was no sign whatsoever of reduced or delayed sensory processing

very often, extreme stress - the kind that activates sympathetic nervous system responses - can also act as a kind of anaesthetic

[Lori P]

Rhea, I don't think I told you before, but I really am sorry you lost you king-- you did all you could, and you tried to help. I know it's hard, but I hope you know that he was in the best hands he could have been in.

[Zephyr]

when I gave my king the antibiotic injections, his response to pain was obvious and unmistakable
the moment the needle pierced his skin, he'd jerk away
there was no sign whatsoever of reduced or delayed sensory processing

very often, extreme stress - the kind that activates sympathetic nervous system responses - can also act as a kind of anaesthetic
Couldn'tve said it better myself.