Thiamin deficiency video (seizures)

[KITKAT]

Well, I finally got brave enough to post this. Watching it still makes me sick.:(:(:(

YouTube - Thiamin deficiency (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFGpH2cZ8uU)

[Snake lover 3-25]

man... thats sad what's wrong with it? if my snake ever did that and i found out it was having seizures... i think it would be wrong to let it suffer like that...

[KITKAT]

man... thats sad what's wrong with it? if my snake ever did that and i found out it was having seizures... i think it would be wrong to let it suffer like that...

This is a snake that was mistakenly fed too much on minnows. This paricular snake refused to eat other food items and would only eat fish. I had been told that minnows were safe - by several people who should have known.

I first knew there was a problem because I came in to feed my snake and she was lying limp in the cage, not moving, apparently dead. I took her out of the cage and laid her on the screen top, until I could get a plastic bag for her body. When I returned to the room with the bag, she went into the first seizure, and I grabbed the camera and filmed it.

Treatment for thiamin deficiency is injections of thiamin (a B vitamin). I had no way to give her this, and no vets were open, but I did have a B complex syrup in the house, that I use for other animals, so I tube fed her a dose of this.

Some snakes have been saved with the injection, as it stops the seizures quickly.

However, my substitute attempt did not work, and she experienced another seizure, and died.

I was very sad, very frustrated, because I had followed good advice at the time, given to me by "experts". Many people claim that Rosey Reds and minnows are safe - that they do not contain thiaminase. But when I did more research, I found that both Rosey Reds and minnows are on the list of species which DO contain thiaminase... and this is apparently what killed my snake.

Her sister, who prefers earthworms and who now eats strips of trout (a safe species that does not contain thiaminase, according to literature), has not been sick, and is fine to this day.

I feared at first to put the video out there for people to see, because I did not want people to flame me, saying I was cruel. But I hope the video will convince people not to feed these dangerous species of fish to their garters. Trout and other safe species are easy to come by, so there is no reason for minnows to be used, other than as a rare treat.

[Zephyr]

Golden Rule of Thamnophis Husbandry: Variety is KEY

[Stefan-A]

Thanks for posting the video. I mean it. It's important for people (including me) to see what can happen if you don't take the thiamine issue seriously.

By the way, I favorit'd it and subscribed. Would have given it five stars as well.

[anji1971]

Thank you for sharing that video, KitKat.
As hard as it is to watch, it is very important that people really see what all those warnings about thiaminase mean!!

[EdgyExoticReptiles]

maybe i can post this on my website under the garter snake care sheet to show people how bad this can be

[Stefan-A]

What a coincidence, I was wondering earlier today if I should ask permission to post it on my home page.

[adamanteus]

Good video. Kudos to KITKAT for posting it. I have seen such seizures have much more dramatic effects, including cloacal prolapse when the snake contorts so violently. The effects of Thiamin deficiency are an awful thing to witness, and so easy to avoid once you know the safe foods. Thanks KITKAT.

[Snake lover 3-25]

is there a real list with all the good and bad foods? i dont want that to happen to me... :(

[Zephyr]

is there a real list with all the good and bad foods? i dont want that to happen to me... :(Technically all living organisms have thiaminase. Just in different ratios. Generally, cyprinids will have higher levels of it than other fish.

[adamanteus]

Generally, cyprinids will have higher levels of it than other fish.

I think you should elucidate, for those of us who don't 'Google', Kyle!:)

[Zephyr]

I think you should elucidate, for those of us who don't 'Google', Kyle!:)Members of the cyprinid family are more fatty, oily fish, including carp, goldfish, minnows, etc.
Surprisingly, danios and white clouds are in this family.

[snakeman]

I have a juvie fl. eastern that is going thru this right now.I was feeding rosy reds.I guess around five months straight.It would not eat anything else.A couple of weeks ago It started corkscrewing when I picked it up.So the next two times I fed it I pinkie pumped.It does'nt corkscrew anymore.Its head is tilted sometimes,But is moving around way better.Out of about a hundred snakes this is the only one I have had do this.

[Stefan-A]

Members of the cyprinid family are more fatty, oily fish, including carp, goldfish, minnows, etc.
Surprisingly, danios and white clouds are in this family.
Cyprinid fish are indeed the worst sources of thiaminase. I used to feed certain species to my snakes, but I stopped the second I read that fish belonging to this family were loaded with the enzyme.

[Snake lover 3-25]

how many at a time and how often are minnows able to be put into their diet safely?

[adamanteus]

Just don't use them, if you have the option.

[Charlet_2007]

does this thiaminase effect turtles and all reptiles this way or just garters?

[adamanteus]

I think it would effect all reptiles in the same way. I don't know how mammals cope with it.....
I don't eat many Goldfish!:D

[Stefan-A]

Doesn't even affect reptiles alone, it's mammals as well. You shouldn't even feed your cat raw fish from this family.

[Snake lover 3-25]

my snake is very picky and i need to feed her a toad, worm, or fish before she will eat any pinkies and even those have to be scented... now that we have so much snow there is no way that i can find worms or toads...

[zooplan]

The danger on Tiamin defiency is the wide varity of symptoms that may occur.
I´ve lost a male by this, the only symptom I can imagine was a little flurry during a few days, than suddenly I found him dead in his enclosure.
From his posture I could see that he died in a seizure.

[Stefan-A]

Just wanted to add that we sometimes call it beriberi when it happens to us.

Beriberi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beriberi)

[adamanteus]

Just wanted to add that we sometimes call it beriberi when it happens to us.

Beriberi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beriberi)

I never knew that. You learn something new every day.:)

[anji1971]

I'd forgotten all about Beriberi!! It's prevalent in third world countries-- think I saw a video in school years back about starving kids in Africa with it............although I didn't realise it was the same thing we've been talking about here!

[KITKAT]

I have a juvie fl. eastern that is going thru this right now.I was feeding rosy reds.I guess around five months straight.It would not eat anything else.A couple of weeks ago It started corkscrewing when I picked it up.So the next two times I fed it I pinkie pumped.It does'nt corkscrew anymore.Its head is tilted sometimes,But is moving around way better.Out of about a hundred snakes this is the only one I have had do this.

Try injecting the mice with a little bit of the Doc Roy's Vitamin B complex. You can get it at Revival Animal Health (http://www.revivalanimal.com)

That was what I tried to feed to my girl after she started seizing, but I figure I was too little too late.:(

[KITKAT]

OK... with your encouragement, I have changed the options on my video. You can now rate it, and you can embed it.

You can also leave comments, but I have to approve them before they are public.