Sick concinnus babies... and sexing...

[KITKAT]

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/male_concinnus_1206.jpg

Is this a male? Is he sick? What is the crease I see in the midline of his belly?

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/female_concinnus.jpg

Is this a female? Is she sick? What is causing the "loose scales" that are shown near the red arrow?

I got these babies about a month ago at a herp show. They continue to thrive, but just don't look right to me. Any comments/info are welcome!

[Cazador]

Hey Kitkat,
The first one seems to have a concave belly with ribs showing on both sides. It really looks undernourished, which could be due to the stress-related transfer to a new home, parasites, or even too much handling. Stress (from any of the above) can impair the digestion, absorption, and assimilation of nutrients, even if they're eating. Very young snakes often need a lot of privacy to thrive. If its ventral side is concave, as it appears, the crease is probably due to the folding of its scales. The second one seems to have a similar condition, but not as advanced.

I think the second picture could either show trauma-related scarring, as if the snake got stuck in a tight spot and tried to back out, or it could also be due to undernourishment. Is the scar new, or was it there when you bought the snake? If it's new, take a hard look at any cage accessories that might create a wedge or tight spot where your snakes could get caught. I had an adolescent that got caught between the lip of a 10 gallon aquarium and the hinge of a folding screen lid. It had a similar scar. Unfortunately, I don't have a picture, though.

If they're eating, try feeding them worms (to make them poop more frequently); get some fresh stool samples, and take them to the vet. I don't know if you're shooting the picture through the bottom of a glass table, but if these snakes are lying on their backs for a picture, then they're not in good shape. I'm sorry to say, but they don't look well.

Finally, I'm pretty sure the first one is a male, based on the length of the tail, and the second is a female (for the same reason). The erector muscle on a small, male snake enlarges with age, so it's not a good indicator for such young snakes. A male T.s. concinnus should have about 84-85 subcaudal scales (between vent and tail spike on one side... only count the ones that touch near the middle, not those that don't touch near the vent). Females will have fewer. You could try "popping" or probing them, but not if they're already stressed and undernourished. Wish I could be of more help.

[Thamnophis]

Everything I want to say about these two snakes is already said by Cazador.
Research of a stool sample seems the first thing you will have to do.

[GarterGuy]

OK...I got one more thing on the belly scale creasing. What type of substrate do you have them on? I actually had a situation with my first garter, a Manitoba T.s.parietalis, that was kept on gravel ( I was only ten and it was a LONG time ago....I think I kept all my reptiles on gravel back then!). Being on a hard, uneven surface actually caused very similar creases in the belly scales.

[KITKAT]

Hi

I bought two babies from this vendor, and one baby died before I left the room of the herp show. I was there for about two hours!

I suspect parasites, because both babies are eating, but I cannot get them to eat worms. They are currently on minnow tails, and the minnows are soaked in scalding water for about 15 min before feeding. The substrate is paper towels, because my suspicion of parasites has me changing the towels every 2 days.

Handling is almost zero. And photos were done by sitting the snake on my scanner, putting a peanut butter lid over the baby, and scanning.

I am going to dose them with flagyl, I guess. I have not found a herp vet in my area, and the specialist at the University near here (45 minute drive one way) is not taking new clients at this time. Convenient for him, sucks for me and the snakes.

I tried (earlier) to describe the creases in the belly, and those that discussed it with me were not familiar or did not understand my descriptions... so thanks for the analysis, which pretty much what I thought.

[boeh]

Hi Kitkat

It seems to be very urgent. With your allowance I post this pictures in the largest german snake forum (about 10'000 Users). It's quite possible to find someone who had this problem before. You could either post the question by yourself. I'm sure there will be some users who help you to translate your question and their answers into the right language. Me included.

The adress is: Schlangengrube.de :: Alles über Schlangen, ihre Haltung, Pflege und Zucht (http://www.schlangengrube.de)

Cyrill

[Cazador]

Hi Kitkat,
I was reading in Understanding reptile parasites that Flagyl is often crushed into a powder and sprinkled over the food. That might work a lot better than trying to liquify it since it doesn't dissolve uniformly in solution. Recheck the last post here (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/urgent-care/178-flagyl-metronidizole-doseage.html#post2294) for the treatment regime. The author acknowledges that there is a wide range of safety with Flagyl, but this is going to be a very small amount for your babies. Panacur (dewormer) has the same doseage and also has a wide margin of safety.

[KITKAT]

Answer to at least one question about the area where the scales looked damaged on one baby's belly ... unfortunately!:(

This morning I found mites in the baby concinnus' water dish!

I have read up on various sites today, and elected to try FRONTLINE for both my concinnus and also my bearded dragons, which I will treat because they were in the same room, on the same table.

Oh... my little concinnus are going to cause me big trouble now, I fear!:eek:

The babies are on paper towel, without any climbing twig, so I can clean up the enclosure very easily. However, my bearded dragon will have to have a new perch, and both tanks will be cleaned with alcohol tomorrow, another tip from a website.

I will also have to check my ordinoides adults... they were in the same room until last week!

AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH !!!!!!!!

The flagyl has seemed to help, as the one baby is now eating better (the other one had never stopped eating), so I hope I can save them!

[GarterGuy]

Answer to at least one question about the area where the scales looked damaged on one baby's belly ... unfortunately!:(

This morning I found mites in the baby concinnus' water dish!

I will also have to check my ordinoides adults... they were in the same room until last week!

Actually, you T.ordiniodes may have been the source of the mites. I noticed that even my little ones that I got had mites on them! Luckily I caught it very early and knocked them out fast....that and any new animals I get are always quarantined for just such reasons. Good luck with you mite erdadication!

[Cazador]

Holy cow, Kitkat! You're really getting a workout with those snakes. Let us know about the T. ordinoides and mite situation, okay? I haven't seen any on mine, but they can get under those scales and be hard to find sometimes. I'll take another look today, too.
Rick

P.S. Thanks for the info, Roy.

[KITKAT]

So far so good... I used a diabetic insulin syringe and put the TINIEST drop of frontline on them possible. I do not have access to the spray, so am using the TOP SPOT, which is not what was indicated in the stuff I was reading online, so one might say I decided to experiment.

Both babies are still fine... no CNS symptoms, no sign of the top spot having bothered them.

I also used top spot on my male bearded dragon, to no ill effect, and plan to tx the female tonight.

I have not checked the ordinoides yet, but do have to say that before they left quarantine I had bathed them and found nothing... but may frontline them as well, since it seems to be going OK in terms of not bothering them.

Now I will have to wait until after the holiday before I have time to check again for mites and see what we achieved.:confused:

[KITKAT]

Female BEFORE frontline top spot:

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/female_concinnus.jpg

Female AFTER...

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/femaleprogress.jpg

Male Before...

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/male_concinnus_1206.jpg

Male after...



http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/maleprogress.jpg

Now I will treat with flagyl and in a week I will post results...

[Sid]

Both of the babie look much better KitKat. I'm sure that under your care they will be fine.

Sid

[Thamnophis]

That´s quite a difference!!!

[KITKAT]

Lost one over New Year's holiday. I was gone from Dec 30 in the morning til Jan 1st in the evening... when I came home, one of them was dead.

I did give flagyl, but think it was too little, too late, for the one baby.:(

I will still post new pics of the survivor in a few days.

[Cazador]

I was just wondering how they were doing earlier today. I suspect that you've already raised the temperature to the upper 80s to give their immune system a boost, haven't you? I'm pulling for that other little dude. Best,
Rick


P.S. I hope their feces looks good. Mine had watery feces with nematodes, and three weeks of treatment with Panacur (Fenbendazole) took care of it.

[GarterGuy]

Sorry to hear that you lost one of your little T.s.concinnus:(

[Thamnophis]

Bad news!
Hope the other one does better.

[KITKAT]

Well... thanks for the good wishes and the various advice... but I lost the second one yesterday.

I was thinking he was getting better, as he looked better and was eating very well... I'm sad.

At least my T ordinoides are still doing well!

[Stefan-A]

Really sorry to hear that.:( I guess the damage was already done.

[Cazador]

Holy cow, Kitkat. I'm really sorry to hear about your concinnus. Even though your ordinoides appear fine, I suppose you're already treating them with flagyl as well. Snakes have a good tolerance to it, and it's very effective against amoeba and protozoa. Prazaquantil treats tapeworms, and it's available from that Pet Revival source you gave to me. I also had great results with Fenbendazole to treat for nematodes (round worms). Tapeworms have an indirect life cycle, so they wouldn't/shouldn't build up to deadly levels in a captive-born snake, but nematodes have a direct life cycle. The Fenbendazole can be bought at almost any feed store that sells horse supplies. It's sold under the brand name Panacur. If you get it and want to use it, I'll help you with the proper doseage. Best wishes and condolences,
Rick

[GarterGuy]

Sorry to hear that.....sometimes I think it's really hard to bring little ones like that back from a bad situation. They seem to go down hill so quickly (as did my baby T.ordinoides).:(

[KITKAT]

Sorry to hear that.....sometimes I think it's really hard to bring little ones like that back from a bad situation. They seem to go down hill so quickly (as did my baby T.ordinoides).:(

Yes, I was thinking of the little ones you lost... guess I at least gave them a chance. I knew there was trouble afoot when the first one I bought died and the vendor replaced him... I mean how often does one have a herp die during the first two hours after purchase?!? I have since then heard a rumor that there is one vendor "in the back of the room" at our herp show, who always has sick herps... and I suspect now I know who it is! :mad:

[GarterGuy]

Yeh, I think Herp shows are a great place to get herps, but at the same time there are those who are going to try and take advantage of you. I've had some dealers totally blow smoke up my....ummmm....yeh, you know where I'm going with this.....like I totally knew nothing about reptiles at all! I guess anything to make a buck!:mad: