Looking for Breeders in.....

[arborealboids]

Hey everyone,
I'm looking for breeders of the following Natricins (Preferred US Breeders except for certain species that aren't usually bred here);
Thamnophis sirtalis concinnus
T. s. infernalis
T. s. tetrataenia (I believe only Euro Breeders)
T. s. pickeringii
T. s. similis
T. elegans terrestris
Natrix natrix
N. tessellata
Nerodia rhombifer

Thanks and Sincerely,
Mark

[EdgyExoticReptiles]

you cant keep san fransisco garters in the US sorry

[adamanteus]

It would also be illegal to trade Natrix natrix sub-species.

[RichardA]

Why can you not keep Thamnophis sirtalis tetrataenia in the US?

They are not on the red list anywhere....

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

they are a highly endangered federally protected snake here in the US. unless you are a zoo, you won't have them.

[enigma200316]

unless you like prison and have a lot of money............;)

[ssssnakeluvr]

hopefully my concinnus will be breeding....I don't have a male terrestris, do have a large female and am in need of a male.
tetrataenia's federally protected, very endangered, around 1500 or so left in the wild, according to an article on the old thamnophis.com whe Juergen owned id. can't even buy from overseas, will get hammered big time on federal laws. sucks!!!!!

[Stefan-A]

I think it's pure luck that tetras are legal in Europe. If I remember correctly, they aren't even CITES listed because they don't list subspecies.

[enigma200316]

what luck to have though...................:p

[RichardA]

2007 IUCN Red List – Search (http://www.iucnredlist.org/search/search.php?freetext=Thamnophis+sirtalis+tetrataeni a&modifier=phrase&extendedResults=1&criteria=wholedb&terrestrial=1&freshwater=1&taxa_species=1&taxa_stock=1&taxa_subspc=1&spc_petition=1&spc_caveat=1&redlistCategory%5B%5D=all&country%5B%5D=all&cty_default=1&aquatic%5B%5D=all&aqu_default=1&regions%5B%5D=all&reg_default=1&habitats%5B%5D=all&threats%5B%5D=all&redlistAssessyear%5B%5D=all&growths%5B%5D=all)


Not listed........

all I can find is that they are protected in California....and on the endangered Fed list...so WC is out, however most of the Fed covered stuff is void in private CB collections until you try to sell and or ship them.

I am not trying to argue here.....just wondering how they can be illegal and not on the redlist. thats all.

[adamanteus]

I'm sure there are US enthusiasts out there keeping tetrataenia... they just can never admit it or openly sell any off-spring.... but they are out there.

[RichardA]

Finally found protection status and so on.....this protection was put in back in 1967 and they are not showing on the latest 2007 report as the same or removed....so I guess this species is one of the ones fallen between the cracks. Possibly a lift will happen.

[adamanteus]

Possibly a lift will happen.

I very much doubt that.:(

[arborealboids]

Yes, you are lucky to live in Europe for more than one reason though we do have it pretty good where I live as far as keeping some species.
-Well actually you don't have to be a "zoo." Basically any educational &/or research facility can get permits (this includes private facilities) from their State & Federal Fish and Wildlife Department, and of course these permits would have to be verified by the breeder before purchase of illegal species. CITES permits aren't too hard to get for Gila Monsters (Heloderma), but that doesn't mean other species will be the same especially since Gilas are widely bred here in the US.
-I’m currently studying populations of T. e. elegans and T. sirtalis concinnus in the Willamette Valley. I currently don't have permits for the species but would like to have contacts first, and I already know who to contact for permits. I’m still trying to find a long-term breeding project but I’m still not exactly sure which species to work with yet. I’ve personally kept about 75 different species of herps, and have only found a few that I‘m willing to work with long-term. Some of these species include Garters in my own backyard (concinnus, elegans, & ordinoides), well these were interesting but I would prefer knowing breeders of the sub-species. One of Oregon’s laws is that you can’t, Buy, Sell, or Trade any native species except those that are morphologically different from our own except for Lampropeltis g. californiaensis. So, I would also need a permit from ODFW (Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife) to purchase any native Garters, we have 7 different sub-species; T. e. elegans, terrestris, & vagrans, T. s. concinnus & fitchi, T. ordinoides, & T. atratus. Other than that our state law states that any non-native; Milk, Pine, Corn, Rat, Garter Snake are non-controlled species. For more info on Oregon’s State Laws;
Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife
Division 056: Importation, Possession, Confinement, Transportation, and Sale of Non-Native Wildlife
(Note: There are 2 main parts, controlled and non-controlled species, basically whatever listed in non-controlled you can keep unless it’s in the controlled species part but if it isn’t mentioned in either then it shall be considered illegal until further notice)
One stupid thing about Oregon’s Laws though is that you can’t buy, sale, or trade any natives but anything that’s not protected you can collect or kill as many as you want. I hear so many people telling me about killing snakes in their yard or purposely swerving to hit one on the road it makes me sick. I personally think some of California’s law about controlling collecting by a “fishing” license is more ideal.
-If you don’t feel well giving me these (illegal species) contacts, that is fine and no hard feelings. Though,, I would still like to know breeders of the other species/sub-species if you don‘t mind.
Here’s info on import/export of endangered species
http://www.fws.gov/permits/ImportExport/ImportExport.shtml (http://www.fws.gov/permits/ImportExport/ImportExport.shtml)

Whew, that was a lot. Let me know and thanks for your replies. :)
Sincerely,
Mark

PS- Yes you are right Adamanteus, people still take Tetretaenia along with other endangered/protected herps. Some know this a don't give a .... well you know and others (usually kids) don't know better. I would someday like to photograph some of these in the wild but who knows how well the population will be (maybe by that time they'll be too hard to find), if I ever get down there.

[jewel-dragons]

REALLY FUN....
in the usa live tetrataenia's and you can not keep them.... in the netherlands live Natrix Natrix and we are not allowed to keep them :D

[Stefan-A]

I'd exchange my tetra for a legal N. natrix any day. :D

[RichardA]

Finally found the info on the T. S. tetras......pretty much untouched or modified for about 45 years.....LOL

Oh well.......they are such a nice snake, wish we could do more with them here.

[enigma200316]

I wish we could also, I'd love to have and work with them, but you know
how the people in charge are...............:(

[arborealboids]

Stefan,
If I had a N. natrix I'd definetly trade you for tetrataenia, though as far as wishing goes. :D
Yeah, its ironic what we are allowed to keep sometimes; Ex. in Oregon you are allowed to have all Bitis except arietans, or your also allowed to own a King Cobra but not a Egyptian, or your allowed to have a Bushmaster or Lancehead but not an Eyelash Viper. Though, depending on where you lie in Oregon you can have just about any boid or colubrid which is nice. Sadley, one other euro herp I like are Lacterta lepida and they are also illegal but there is more of a reason for that restriction (since temperate lacerta have already become an introduced species to Vancouver Island, British Columbia).
Ok, I'll cut down that list. Does anyone know any breeders of;
-T.s. pickeringii
-T.s. infernalis (I know Scott Felzer does them and similis)
-Nerodia rhombifer (I've seen people breeding amels but not really any normals)
-Natrix tessellata (I've seen a few people sell these but I think they are WC)

Thanks and Sincerely,
Mark