The Thiaminase Debate

[Zephyr]

Yet again, at the advice of James, I'm starting a controversial thread. XD
For the discussion and debate of thiaminase and all other topics concerning it, I have this story as my side of the debate. Remember, we're all trying to discover the best diet for our snakes, and I don't think any one here is purposely going to try and kill their garter. *Otherwise you wouldn't be here. :P*

At the local wildlife area, there are two varieties of garters: The ones that live in the gardening plots and the surrounding forests, and those that live in the meadow by the lake and around it and rose garden pond. The "land" variety appears to have a diet consisting only of earthworms, slugs *especially the introduced leopard slug*, the occasional toad *Very rare* and mice, while the "water" variety eats only fish and frogs, with the fish being the majority of the diet. The problem with this is that the pond and lake are severely overrun with goldfish from irresponsible pet owners, and the local species are limited to the southern, rocky shore of the lake. The garters are found thoroughly through the western side where goldfish are most plentiful due to a seasonal creek and a large, algae-infested wetlands area. Somehow, the snakes manage to reach HUGE sizes on a limited diet of goldfish and baby green frogs. I may be jumping to conclusions, but wouldn't these snakes succumb to thiaminase poisoning if there wasn't something in their quadrupedal prey that helped buffer the toxicity?

[tikichick]

Interesting question. Is thiaminase naturally present at a high level in goldfish, or is it a result of captive fish-flake diets?

[Zephyr]

Interesting question. Is thiaminase naturally present at a high level in goldfish, or is it a result of captive fish-flake diets?From my research, all goldfish have it. I can think of one main argument against goldfish, aside from the thiaminase *which is supposedly in larger amounts in goldfish as compared to rosies*: Goldfish are native to Asia, and rosies are native to many of the areas where garters live. Rosies, AKA fat head minnows, are natives of the US and the gold strain is simply a cultivated variety. In the wild, I have observed many aquatic and semi aquatic snakes eating fatheads, which are on the list of thiaminase containing species. Some of the other American species of fish, such as sunfish, do not contain thiaminase, or at least not in noticeable levels. However, from personal experience, I have never seen a garter go after sunfish, except by accident when the young school with baitfish minnows, such as rosies. Also, sunfish spines are VERY sharp, and my old snake Cremepuff could barely fit down a 3-inch bluegill, and he/she was around 3 feet. So, my conclusion is that minnows and other cyprinids are a common part of garter snake's diet, but are not their exclusive choice. Therefore, I conclude that a staple diet of rosies, combined with a scheduled rodent or amphibian, is a healthy and natural diet for these snakes.

[Zephyr]

Of course, for the species that prefer worms to snakes, you could say a similar predicament exists, except in the form of lack of nutrients. So I'd say in this case, supplementation is all that's needed.

[ssssnakeluvr]

it's an interesting question.....I fed w/c garters goldfish for years with no noticeable problems. Before I moved to Utah I lived in Idaho. I would go up to my home town and catch a gravid female and take her home. she would be fed goldfish all summer until she gave birth....never noticed any problems withthe mother or the babies.... I would take them back and release them where I found the mother. since getting on the internet I have quit feeding goldfish. I have noticed some problems with some catfish strips I was using...feeding babies the catfish (which I later found on the list containing thiaminase) would cause neurological problems....twisting when crawling. It even caused a few snakes death. I have switched to trout and tilapia when no trout is available along with the rodents in their diet. I wonder if it's more detrimental to babies and juveniles than adults?????

[GarterGuy]

Well from some observations that I've done, I think your garters are probably sustained more off of the amphibian population then the fish. I've noticed, again and again, that thriving populations of garters are often associated with good amphibian populations as well. All my good garter sites also have a really healthy amphibian population. Even though you probably don't see as many frogs as you do fish......there's probably a lot more there. Also if they do feed on the fish, they wouldn't be doing so exclusively, so their diet would be varied enough to offset any most of the affects from the thiaminase in the fish. You CAN feed your garters goldfish occasionally, it's just when it's made a staple part of the diet that's when problems can arise. Because garters are so varied in diet, unless you're actually capturing the snakes and getting them to regurgitate there meals, you really don't know exactly what they're feeding on and in what quantity. Don't assume that a snake that feeds on earthworms has dietary problems. Feeding in captivity and in the wild are very different. There are species that specialize in feeding on worms (T.brachystoma for instance) and they do just fine on this diet. You've just got to make sure the worms you're using are nutritious. Worms in the wild are taking in all kinds of plant matter, soil, ect.....all this "stuff" will have nutrients in it that the worm it's self doesn't. It's like gut loading feeder insects for lizards. Lizard keepers know that wild insects have the most nutrition, it's just they can also carry parasites and toxins. I really believe the best captive diet for garters is to keep things varied as much as possible, while making sure all their nutritional needs are met.

[EdgyExoticReptiles]

im breeding platies now they are supposed to be on the good list containing lesss thimanaise (spelling?) than goldfish and rosies and im eventualy gunna do a 50% mice 50% fish diet does that sound good?

[sschind]

I've got a baby male T.s.pickeringii who will not eat anything but live fish. The female takes unscented pinkies and is growing fast and looks great but the male... not so much. I am alternating rosies with zebra danios as guppies are simply too small. So far he looks fine from a behavior standpoint. His color is no where near the female but that could just be the way it is. I've tried scenting with no luck (just thought if this though, if it's the movement maybe I should try scenting a live pinky, I'll try it today and let you know) I would think that a varied diet would be acceptable. As long as they get a portion of their diet that is thiaminase free they should be OK. For most animals however, variety is the best.

Steve

[KITKAT]

I've got a baby male T.s.pickeringii who will not eat anything but live fish. The female takes unscented pinkies and is growing fast and looks great but the male... not so much. I am alternating rosies with zebra danios as guppies are simply too small. So far he looks fine from a behavior standpoint. His color is no where near the female but that could just be the way it is. I've tried scenting with no luck (just thought if this though, if it's the movement maybe I should try scenting a live pinky, I'll try it today and let you know) I would think that a varied diet would be acceptable. As long as they get a portion of their diet that is thiaminase free they should be OK. For most animals however, variety is the best.

Steve

I just lost one of my two concinnus females about two weeks ago. She refused to eat anything but fish, and I had been lulled into believing that roseys were OK, so that is all she ate. I offered her nightcrawlers, scented pinkie parts, scented beef heart strips, etc, but she only took live Roseys. She died in convulsions, as often described for thiamine deficiency. An oral bolus of vitamin B complex did not save her. I filmed her symptoms, but I fear putting it up on youtube, due to comments I will probably get. I am pretty blue about losing her, and am now feeding trout strips as the fish part of my feeding regimen. Her sister, who eats earthworms, fish, and heart strips, seems fine. I hate that I lost her, and feel guilty that I did not do more reading!:(

[tikichick]

You can disable the comments when you post on youtube, though some may send you messages, but if you put in the description that its for educating on the symptoms, etc, I think it'd be good to show folks what can happen.

I'm sorry for your loss :(

[adamanteus]

I think Don has raised a very good point there, reinforced by KITKATs story....
Maybe thiaminase is more harmful to juveniles than it is to adults. When I think back now, I only remember juvenile snakes, raised on the wrong kind of fish, suffering any symptoms. Maybe that's a dangerous supposition, I certainly don't want to be the one to research it!:eek:

Excellent topic by the way, Kyle.... and well presented.;)

[KITKAT]

I have taken the thiaminase free list that is provided in our own thamnophis.com wiki article, and have added the following section:

QUICK REFERENCE TO COMMON SAFE SPECIES OF FISH
The following fish appear on the list linked above in this article. I have selected according to the following criteria... tested thiaminase free using whole body testing only, commercially available or available by angling, species with which I am familiar. So this is a PARTIAL list.

Bass (Largemouth), Bass (Smallmouth), Bluegill, Chub, Crappie, Herring, Mackerel, Pike (Northern), Pumpkinseed, Salmon (Coho), Trout (Brown), Trout (Rainbow), Whiting.

Added by KITKAT

Retrieved from "http://www.thamnophis.com/caresheets/index.php?title=Thiamin%2C"

I think I can put my fishing license to good use this summer, since bluegill are common and easy to catch in waters around my house!

[gregmonsta]

I'm not sure but, in the wild, would a diet of goldfish and frogs not balance out ... I thought I read somewhere that frogs had quite a good vitamin content - also would the thiaminase containing fish carry a more substantial 'gutload' of vitamins in the wild? ... I use a constant trace of vitamins in my water at home and have never had a problem even when I had my ribbons who would get Goldfish once a month or so and were mostly fed cod or haddock (boiled for 5mins) at the time.

[Zephyr]

Today, in Honor's Chemistry, we began studying the amine group of carbons.
From what I understand, THIS is the story of thiamine.
The snake swallows the fish *let's use goldfish for example,* and as its being digested, the cells rupture in the fish, allowing the protein in the fish's cells to be turned into thiamine, which the snake would in turn use for muscle growth, seeing as the amines are basically broken down proteins. However, the thiaminase present in the goldfishs cells decomposes the thiamine into smaller pieces that CANNOT be re-formed into proteins by the snake.
So, the reason why the young snakes would be affected by thiaminase the most is because they are growing and the muscles need protein, seeing as they are made of protein. The muscle convulsions before death would be from the muscles attempting to do normal activities without protein.

So, I conclude that this would mean, if you were using a diet entirely of goldfish, you'd have to feed the snake almost daily to make sure it was getting proper protein, but this is, obviously, untested.
If rosies have less thiaminase than goldfish, then it is safe to say that, once again, a varied diet would be suitable if rosies are a staple. It may actually be safe to feed goldfish to adult garter snakes, seeing as their body isn't growing as much as a baby snakes would be. This would also explain sschind's story.

[Zephyr]

Also, on the topic of warmwater and saltwater fish used as feeders, my concern with these is that they are from different environments and could carry deadly pathogens that the garters aren't used to. A similar example would be introducing goldfish to a warmwater aquarium or, the Europeans coming to the Americas. *Smallpox, people!* :P

[EdgyExoticReptiles]

i asked a couple people including gartersnake.info and they said platies were fine

Also, on the topic of warmwater and saltwater fish used as feeders, my concern with these is that they are from different environments and could carry deadly pathogens that the garters aren't used to. A similar example would be introducing goldfish to a warmwater aquarium or, the Europeans coming to the Americas. *Smallpox, people!* :P

[Lori P]

Kyle, you are a wealth of info! I have nothing to add, just reading and trying to learn... but I agree that variety is the key, from all we've gathered. That one article I read is supported by what you said above... that the cells rupture quickly in dead fish and so they recommended not feeding previously killed or frozen/thawed fish to garters that are known to carry thiaminase as the level would be higher. But it also said that gut loading the fish with vitamin/mineral rich foods offset the effects. Interesting stuff, all of it...

[GarterGuy]

As far as adult snakes not being affected by thiaminase, I unfortunately had first hand experiance that this is not true. My first garter (a Manitoba T.s.parietalis) was fed a diet consisting of mostly goldfish and other thiaminase containing frozen fish (I think I used smelt). She lived for 9.5yrs.....but met her end very badly with convulsions and total lack of neuromuscular control. I agree that it does probably affect younger snakes fast, just simply because they are in an excellerated state of growth and developement...but adults are not immune to it and over time they can suffer the same devestating affects.
One thing that worries me, is that it almost seem like we're trying to make excuses to feed thiaminase containing fish, maybe due to the fact that they are so readily available, rather then putting a bit more effort in and making sure that are snakes are provided with the best possible diets. I know some snakes will accept little else then fish or even live fish, but I think we still have to make it an effort to provide them with species that possibly won't cause them any problems. Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather be safe then sorry and I wouldn't want to put another snake through the horror of what I know thiaminase poisoning can do.

[ssssnakeluvr]

I'm not trying to make excuses to use goldfish....I haven't fed goldfish for a number of years...basically since I found out on the internet about the thiaminase problems (and just started breeding and raising them seriously). I feed them a variety also....rodents, fish, worms, and occasional slugs.

[drache]

the problem with the varied diet thing is that very few of my garters actually have a varied palate, and this is particularly true for the babies - most of them have a very strong preference, and when they're babies, I'll feed them what they'll eat
I don't offer them harmful foods though, except as a last resort
by sheer luck perhaps, I managed to get all of my current babies interested in healthy f/t foods
in the past I've raised some babies exclusively on minnows, until they were big enough to take an entire scented pinkie, and they were fine too - still are in fact

[adamanteus]

One thing that worries me, is that it almost seem like we're trying to make excuses to feed thiaminase containing fish.

Very good point, Roy. I don't think anyone is actually doing that, but it would be very wrong of us to 'play down' the effects of thiaminase. I've said it before, and I'll say it again.... trout is safe, readily available and affordable, and most of my Garters accept it in preference to any other fish.

[Zephyr]

Very good point, Roy. I don't think anyone is actually doing that, but it would be very wrong of us to 'play down' the effects of thiaminase. I've said it before, and I'll say it again.... trout is safe, readily available and affordable, and most of my Garters accept it in preference to any other fish.
Now, if only we could find somewhere that offers juvenile trout.

And, has anyone looked into a saltwater *I think it is* fish called silversides? I used to give them to my fish, and perhaps they'd be safe as well. They're sold frozen, so that would make them conveinient...

[Zephyr]

Also...
For those fish that will only take goldfish, has any one tried offering them a pinky or other food item scented with goldfish? This would solve ALOT of problems...

[tikichick]

I know amphibians are listed as a food source, but what about Mediterranean house geckos?

[sschind]

Well, I tried a scented live pinkie with the male pickeringii and he went for it right away. Unfortunately he grabbed it back end first and after 5 minutes of trying to swallow it he gave up. Still, encouraging results for the first try. I'll keep looking through the mouse colonies for the tiniest ones I can find and try it again. He grabbed it so fast that I think if I offer it to him head first from a tweezers he may still go for it. I didn't do that this time because I thought he might be intimidated.

Speaking of small pinkies, does anyone here in the states have pygmy mice (Mus minutoides)? Email me if you know of anyone who has them.

Steve

[KITKAT]

I fed fathead minnows and roseys together with earthworms and pinkies for years and never had a case... but after seeing this one poor little baby die of it, I will never risk it again. It was a horrible thing to watch, and it sickened me.:(


As far as adult snakes not being affected by thiaminase, I unfortunately had first hand experiance that this is not true. My first garter (a Manitoba T.s.parietalis) was fed a diet consisting of mostly goldfish and other thiaminase containing frozen fish (I think I used smelt). She lived for 9.5yrs.....but met her end very badly with convulsions and total lack of neuromuscular control. I agree that it does probably affect younger snakes fast, just simply because they are in an excellerated state of growth and developement...but adults are not immune to it and over time they can suffer the same devestating affects.
One thing that worries me, is that it almost seem like we're trying to make excuses to feed thiaminase containing fish, maybe due to the fact that they are so readily available, rather then putting a bit more effort in and making sure that are snakes are provided with the best possible diets. I know some snakes will accept little else then fish or even live fish, but I think we still have to make it an effort to provide them with species that possibly won't cause them any problems. Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather be safe then sorry and I wouldn't want to put another snake through the horror of what I know thiaminase poisoning can do.

[ssssnakeluvr]

Lizards aren't a real common part of garter's diets...however I have had a wandering garter eat several sagebrush lizards that I left in his cage...not thinking she would eat them.

[Thamnophis]

Before reading all the reactions I want to say the following:

Maybe they eat a lot of goldfish, but these have belly's filled with natural food (I presume). In this is Vitamin B1 present, amongst others. And a frog every now and then also helps.

If you see no snakes in the wild that seem to suffer from thiaminase means there is no problem.

Also in captivity there are not that many snakes that suffer from thiaminase. This are still exceptions.

I am convinced that thiaminase is not such a big problem in general watersnakekeeping.
But it looks like some specimen are more sensitive for it than others. And maybe some species more than other species.

I have personally never had a problem with thiaminase. And I kept Thamnophis, Nerodia, Xenochrophis, Rhabdophis and Natrix for over 35 years. And I never give additional Vitamin B1.
I only use multivitaminproducts (where some B1 is in).
I feed smelt, chickenmeat, and some fishfilet (Pangasius ypopthalmus, Clarias lazerna) and every now and the a pinky or jumper mouse.
I do not heat the fish. I thaw the frozen fish in roomtemperature. Sometimes in lukewarm water when I am in a hurry.

[sschind]

The third installment of the picky pickeringii saga. I found a very small live pinky this morning, washed it off and scented it with a rosey, offered it to the snake head first on a tweezers, he grabbed it and after a few minutes trying to figure out what to do with it he got it down. I'm writing this from the library computer right now and I just remembered that I didn't want to scare him when I snapped the lid of the deli cup on so I just lightly pushed it on. I hope its sealed well enough or i will be trying to find a 6 inch snake in a haystack.

oh well, at least he should be on pinkies now so that should make things easier. If I do find him.

[GarterGuy]

I'm not trying to make excuses to use goldfish....I haven't fed goldfish for a number of years...basically since I found out on the internet about the thiaminase problems (and just started breeding and raising them seriously). I feed them a variety also....rodents, fish, worms, and occasional slugs.


Sorry Don, not directed at you.....just a general comment.:)

[Lori P]

I think it's kind of like... not so much trying to make excuses to use thiaminase containing fish, but more trying to find realistic ways of making these fish usable if they are the only thing we can find, or the only thing the snake will eat. At least, that's how I'm approaching it... if I can only find fat head minnows, then how can I make them less harmful...

[GarterGuy]

Actually a fish that someone had brought up before (can't remember who?) that's safe and available and VERY easy to breed are Platies. I'm actually starting up a tank of them myself so that I can occasionally give my garters some live fish to "play" with. I also like the fact of raising my own, since even with out the whole thiaminase thing.....there's the worry of parasites....but don't want to get into that here.:rolleyes:

[Thamnophis]

Anyone had experiences with feeding Guppys (Poecilia reticulata)?

[gregmonsta]

Never had aproblem with guppies :) ... when I had my Ribbons the waterbowl became a warzone :D ... no ill effects either (they're on the 'safe' list aren't they?).

[drache]

quick question
do guppies come any larger than the fancy guppies (and I do know they are mostly fin)?

[gregmonsta]

I'm not sure ... I always bought about 6 females when I gave my Ribbons their treat :)

[Thamnophis]

I bought a small aquarium (60 x 30 x 30 cm) with pump, heater and filter etc.
For only 30 euro. Okay, it is used, but still is good.

I was planning to start breeding Guppys for the smaller snakes.
I have two T. cyrtopsis ocellatus juveniles that refuse to eat. I want to try it with Guppys. Only to get them started.

By the way... I found on this site: Thiaminase - The Aquarium Wiki (http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/Thiaminase) the following:

Bacteria producing Thiaminase have been found in Guppies - Poecilia reticulata

[KITKAT]

quick question
do guppies come any larger than the fancy guppies (and I do know they are mostly fin)?

Common guppies (not as much fin) can be produced in large sizes with the following adjustments to their rearing:

1. The larger the body of water, the larger the guppy.
2. The warmer the body of water, within the temperatures tolerated by guppies, the faster they grow and the larger they get.
3. Selective breeding can increase the size of guppies.

Even with all that, you will not find a guppy larger than 1.5 inches in length. Females are always larger than males.

I believe there is a species of gambusia that is larger than most guppies. (?) Mollies are another option that is larger. But who knows the thiaminase properties of those species? Mollies live, grow, and reproduce best, in slightly brackish water.

[sschind]

To Kitkat's suggestions I would add

feeding often

changing lots of water.

lots of cover in the tank


The more you feed the faster and bigger they grow but the more the polute the water so the more water changes you have to do. I know fish breeders who feed 4 or 5 times a day and change 50% of the water or more every day. Floating plastic plants will give the babies a place to hide from the adults.

also, the changing lots of water can sort of offset the larger body of water since the water is more consistantly fresh which is probably more important than physical tank size.